I'm going to have to claim Hogwash on adjusting the PH

[Spoiledrotten]

I did as I read several time here that if the TA is too high, then you bring the PH and TA down with "PH Lower", then bring only the PH up with 20 Mule Team Borax.

Well, My TA was at 150 but the PH was perfect, so I brought them both down with the PHdown. The TA came down to 80 and the PH, way down as well. I started slowly bringing the PH up with the 20MTB until the PH was in the correct range. Now, the PH is good like it was before and the TA is at 180. All I did was waste a bunch of time for a worse reading on the TA than I had before.

[Hottubguy]

What is your method of testing?

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

since I obviously can't test your water accurately I'll give some approximations as close as I can

1. 2-3oz of spa down/pH reducer diluted
2. run both pumps on high for 10-15min.
3. 2-3oz of spa down/pH reducer diluted
4. run both pumps on high for 10-15min.

in an Envoy that would/should have dropped that TA to around ~100ppm while running the jets should maintain a stable pH

[Spoiledrotten]

I'll sure give that method a try. I did pretty much the same thing with exception of diluting first. I sprinkled straight from the bottle into the filter compartment while running the jets, then allowed the jets to run in the "clean" mode. I did that twice to keep from dumping the whole 4oz in at once. The way I did it brought them both down.

Thanks.

[Spoiledrotten]

What is your method of testing?

The Aquacheck meter. Some may not like that method but if you take care of your meter and clean the glass each time, either before or after use, with distilled water and a q-tip, it has to be as accurate as guessing at colors, even guessing at the colors in the Taylor kit, which I have one of those, too.

If diabetics can test their blood with the same type meters, then I think they are acceptable to use on spa water.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 With TA at 150 why even worry about it?    It's an acceptable range IMO.. 

[Spoiledrotten]

With TA at 150 why even worry about it?    It's an acceptable range IMO..

I'm not going to worry about 150 in the future, but I thought the "bring them both down and raise only the PH with 20 mule team" sounded pretty easy. Ha! But now with my TA at 180, I'm going to try TCHS's technique to see if I can get the TA down a little.

[chem geek]

Who told you that you should use pH down and then Borax?  That's ridiculous because the pH down is an acid while the Borax is a base so they pretty much cancel each other out except that you end up with some borates in the water.  It is true that if you were to use pH Up instead of Borax that this would be even worse as the TA would increase in that case.  The ONLY way to lower the TA is through a combination of strong acid addition AND aeration of the water preferably at low pH (well, the aeration speeds things up -- you could just wait longer with the spa uncovered).

Acid lowers both pH and TA.  Aeration increases the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing which increases pH with no change in TA.  So the net of the two is lowering the TA with no change in pH.  The process goes faster if done at lower pH because the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing is faster at lower pH.

[Spoiledrotten]

I read everything here. Here are a few sample posts I've read. A couple of them by you and one by "Vinny". Chem Geek, I see that you state it will raise the TA but only half as much.

The next best thing would be to use 20 Mule Team Borax since that will raise the pH without increasing carbonates so raises the TA by half as much as pH Up.  However, if you use that a lot, then you may add too many borates -- up to 50 ppm cumulative is OK.[\quote]

As for pH Up, that is sodium carbonate and is identical to Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda (careful: NOT the laundry detergent) which you can obviously get for a lower price at grocery stores and is used to raise the pH though also increases the TA as well.  Alkalinity Up is sodium bicarbonate (aka sodium hydrogen carbonate) and is identical to Arm & Hammer Baking Soda and is used to raise the TA (it can also raise the pH if it is low, but is not as efficient in doing so).  If you want to raise the pH with half the rise in TA, you can use 20 Mule Team Borax.[\quote]

Borax raises the PH without affecting the alkalinity.

No it's not soda ash but it's close chemically to it. There is a website for pools that have people using bleach for chlorine, borax for PH up and baking soda for pool store alkalinity increaser ... baking soda[\quote]