Two questions for the smart ones

[Jacuzzi Jim]

I was told by the HS dealer that the Sundance and Jacuzzi have bypass in there system, yet my Jacuzzi dealer told me the cic pump runs 24 hrs and goes through the filter with no bypass and comes out either the waterfall or in the tub. So who is right?

  He's right.   The circ pump is dedicated to the one filter, no bypass.    Pump one runs through a filter with one suction with a spring loaded check valve for bypass in case the filter is badly clogged. It also helps keeping water pressure a constant through the jets something a HS can't do if the filters are clogged/dirty. Though it's prolly not a huge issue overall?  Pump 2 is strictly hooked to suction.

 In all you could say that a Jacuzzi is a no bypass system with bypass at the same time.      And yes HS spas are complete no bypass.   Again is it really that big of a deal?     No, just another sales tool to sell a spa.   

[Hot Spring Ace]

I was told by the HS dealer that the Sundance and Jacuzzi have bypass in there system, yet my Jacuzzi dealer told me the cic pump runs 24 hrs and goes through the filter with no bypass and comes out either the waterfall or in the tub. So who is right?

  He's right.   The circ pump is dedicated to the one filter, no bypass.    Pump one runs through a filter with one suction with a spring loaded check valve for bypass in case the filter is badly clogged. It also helps keeping water pressure a constant through the jets something a HS can't do if the filters are clogged/dirty. Though it's prolly not a huge issue overall?  Pump 2 is strictly hooked to suction.

 In all you could say that a Jacuzzi is a no bypass system with bypass at the same time.      And yes HS spas are complete no bypass.   Again is it really that big of a deal?     No, just another sales tool to sell a spa.   

Circ pumps are always tied to the filter alone.

No-bypass specifically refers to the fact that when you are in the spa and you turn on the jet pumps 100% of the water gets pulled through the filters which is how Hot Spring spas are desinged. Others use a bypass with the jet pumps so the water can take either path and the more the filter gets loaded the more the water bypasses it.

[bimmerdog]

Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system.  Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes.  Some one has to have an  indepentent test to show this. 

I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything. 

So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.

All I can say is if I built  the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best.  Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store.  So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test.  I call BS.  They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars.  Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do.  It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof. 

I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.

[Tman122]

You won't find it because it is not better. The filtration system on any hot tub is sufficient to clean the water. Making something more sufficient doesn't make it better it just makes it more sufficient.

[Spatech_tuo]

Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system.  Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes.  Some one has to have an  indepentent test to show this. 

I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything. 

So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.

All I can say is if I built  the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best.  Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store.  So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test.  I call BS.  They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars.  Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do.  It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof. 

I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.

Spa companies have had "independent" studies done before including one that was about energy efficiency that we've discussed here many times and see flaws in, flaws that maybe scew the report toward the company paying for it, what a shocker. The problem is none of us totally buy into theses type studies if the spa company is paying for it. To say that this is what you want to see wis shortsighted because you won't buy it...

What you are really wanting is a Consumer Reports type of testin that is independent completely. Go send them your requests, not the spa companies.

[clover]

This is a sales game, and it is like football, both teams want to win and they act accordingly.  They both have an offensive approach, and a defensive counter strategy.

YOU become the fan that roots for one team over the other.  As a fan, or as a consumer, and when you are not initially inclined to favor one over the other at the onset, you wait for the eventual outcome where one wins over the other based upon the way the game is played. 

Presumably, they are both good at what they do, and as such, both win some and both lose some.  It becomes a perpetual battle that struggles for the outcome; often times committing errors and fouls being flagged and penalized, and that is the sales game too.

The actual proof is the outcome of the game, or in this case, in the clarity of the water.  While everything you present is equal, as it pertains to the "test" you are conducting, the dealer becomes the difference; some will leave you on your own, to struggle and learn by trial and error, while others will deliver the results of "what they claim".

And that is how the game is played.

[TwinCitiesHotSpring]

Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system.  Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes.  Some one has to have an  indepentent test to show this. 

I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything. 

So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.

All I can say is if I built  the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best.  Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store.  So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test.  I call BS.  They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars.  Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do.  It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof. 

I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.

your not a pain in the backside...your a guy who bought a spa a week ago who thinks he's got everything figured out...no worries, in the internet generation everyone who can read a few articles and forum posts is an expert...enjoy your new spa

[Tman122]

All I can say is if I built  the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best. 

That's not very "independent" When your paying for it the results tend to get skewed. What if it was done and the results weren't favorable. Then you pretend it never happened.

[Jac-470]

IMHO all the big boys make high quality tubs and have great filtration systems. So any I would be happy with. So then it comes to dealer support and who is willing to negotiate prices. Both the Sundance and Jacuzzi dealers in my area were willing to work with me for price, while HS and Marquiss were not willing to budge much on price. So I went with Jacuzzi. While others in another area might get the oppisit and buy a HS. And we both will be happy with our purchase as will both feel we got the best tub for our hard earned $$$.

[Spatech_tuo]

IMHO all the big boys make high quality tubs and have great filtration systems. So any I would be happy with. So then it comes to dealer support and who is willing to negotiate prices. Both the Sundance and Jacuzzi dealers in my area were willing to work with me for price, while HS and Marquiss were not willing to budge much on price. So I went with Jacuzzi. While others in another area might get the oppisit and buy a HS. And we both will be happy with our purchase as will both feel we got the best tub for our hard earned $$$.

Someone give that man a rubbber duck.

[bimmerdog]

Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system.  Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes.  Some one has to have an  indepentent test to show this. 

I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything. 

So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.

All I can say is if I built  the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best.  Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store.  So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test.  I call BS.  They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars.  Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do.  It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof. 

I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.

your not a pain in the backside...your a guy who bought a spa a week ago who thinks he's got everything figured out...no worries, in the internet generation everyone who can read a few articles and forum posts is an expert...enjoy your new spa

This is exactly why I didn't buy a Hot Springs.  The dealer........talked down about every ones tubs and told me how incredible the Hot Spring spa was.  If he would have just told me about his product and not make me feel like a dick for even looking at any other spa, the out come would have been different. 
   
Yes the Internet is great.  I can walk into a place and know all most as much as the sales people. So I go into the store to ask some  questions about things on the Hot Springs that I wasn't sure about and the sales person goes right into his  "all other tubs suck and ours is the best"  speech.  I am only speaking about my store.  The funny thing is I get the same answers here when I ask the simple question "why is Hot Springs filter system better"  I guess the Hot Springs sells manual just says it's better because we have more of them and it filters all water.  Good enough answer for them.  This is because they have no actual proof the system is better.  It is better in their eyes.  Again this is fine for most consumers but not for me it shows there is not enough difference in the hot tub to buy because of this. 

As far as how independent can a test be if you pay for it.  Simple.  I would hire the most respected company to run the test.  I would then buy my competitors hot tubs  (all companies would be told what I was doing so they could have a representative there to make sure the test was far) that are as close to my tub being tested and have them all delivered to the company to be tested.  I would make sure ALL test tubs were set up the same way.  The Independent company would then run a test to see if the no bypass system and multiple filter system does make a difference that is more then 10% difference from the other spas.  The 10% is so no one can say there are to many variables. 

So do you really think Hot Springs has not done some thing like this to see how much of a difference their system makes?  Do you not think Arctic Spas has not done some thing like this with their heat system or Sundance with their  filter system.  If a Company made a claim that there system is better then all others and have no proof of it do you realize how fast the other companies would have a class action lawsuit against them.

Any company can say that their system is better then their competitors but if they say their system is better in ads and say the other companies name in that ad they better have proof that will hold up in court or there will be trouble. 

Being married to an attorney that knows the laws well in this field is a plus. 

Oh and remember I owned a Hot Springs in the early 90's. I did not have the Internet and I believed everything the salesman told me about the tub I bought.  This is why I considered buying a Hot Springs again but because of the stupid Internet I went into the store with a much better understanding of the spa market and what other companies had to offer in their tubs.  A good salesman would had my $11,000 in the bank account if he would have just been honest and said their system is what they think is better but the top five companies have good systems also.  Then he could have told me why in Hot Springs eyes their system is better and leave it up to me to make the final decision. 

[Jacuzzi Jim]

Why can't ANY ONE show any proof that a no bypass is that superior to a bypass system.  Sorry "seeing it with my own eyes" is not proof. Hell I saw Big Foot with my own eyes.  Some one has to have an  indepentent test to show this. 

I tried to get my Hot Springs dealer to show me anything that was not written up by Hot Springs to show me that their system was "better". No go. They could not show me anything. 

So I post my question on here and I thought I would get a answer the first day. No go.

All I can say is if I built  the best spa I would pay to have an independent test company to do a test to show my system is the best.  Then I would have the test results ( if they really did show that I have the best system. If they didn't show it I would just tell my sells people to say it is a better system) all over my store.  So of course some one will come on here and say there is no way to do a true independent test.  I call BS.  They do independent test from bicycle frames to cars.  Doing a hot tub test would be very easy to do.  It would not be cheap but just think if a top independent firm had the proof that Hot Tub A was far superior to all others sells would go through the roof. 

I know I'm a pain in the back side but damn this is fun.

your not a pain in the backside...your a guy who bought a spa a week ago who thinks he's got everything figured out...no worries, in the internet generation everyone who can read a few articles and forum posts is an expert...enjoy your new spa

 Im done..   

[Spatech_tuo]

Do you not think Arctic Spas has not done some thing like this with their heat system or Sundance with their  filter system.

You're a new spa buyer and no one talked about the Arctic testing lately yet you knew of this? You ether have used Google a lot or you're not really a new consumer. Either way, no one here is interested in any talk of independent testing unless it is done independent of the manufacturer. If its commissioned by the manufacturer it will be scoffed at.

[bimmerdog]

Do you not think Arctic Spas has not done some thing like this with their heat system or Sundance with their  filter system.

You're a new spa buyer and no one talked about the Arctic testing lately yet you knew of this? You ether have used Google a lot or you're not really a new consumer. Either way, no one here is interested in any talk of independent testing unless it is done independent of the manufacturer. If its commissioned by the manufacturer it will be scoffed at.

"No one has talked about Arctic testing lately"  OMG are you serious.  I went on their website and read it all by myself.  It is their big selling point. Just as all hot tub companies have their own big selling points. 
Arctic Spas = better heating system. Why because they say so. 
Hot Springs =  no bypass and 5 filters make the water cleaner.  Why because they say so
Sundance =  Filter in a filter cleans the water better. Why because they say so.
All this information is on their websites not made up by me.

Sorry for not being a SHEEP and believing every thing that a salesman tells me or what "some guys" say on the Internet.  I do a lot of research on ANYTHING I buy that cost a lot of money. A hot tub falls into this category.  If some one says their product is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition and do nothing but talk shit about the competition they better have some proof of what they are saying. 
 
I play and work for a golf company that I think is the best in the world. When I am out doing a demo and a customer comes to me and asked why my clubs are better then the other guy I never say anything bad or degrading about the competitors equipment. I tell the customer why ours is good for them. How it will help their game.  Then here is the big part, I let the consumer make the final decision with out feeding him a bunch of BS that might even be true but if my product is as good as I think it will sell itself when the customer tries it.  If the salesman would have had the same approach when I was looking at the Hot Springs I would be having the Grandee in my backyard.

So sells people on here sell "your product" not bash every ones else.  Not all consumers  have a fifth grade education and should not be talked down to.   

If your product is better in your mind then the other guys please tell me about it.  As soon as you cross the line and say yours is better then his you better have proof. That is all I was after with this thread. Proof. 

[sorebikr]

So, you thought there there might in fact be some independent testing that had been done, that proved hottub A was better than all the rest, but the internet was keeping it secret and the only people who knew about it were on this board?  I just don't follow.

Why hasn't the testing been done?  Probably two or three reasons.  1.  Annual sales are just too low to warrant the cost.  2.  There are too many variables introduced from the end-user to make any real-world application of the tests null and void. 

There might in fact be some manufacturing/process certifications that some follow.  But that's not a review of the effectiveness.  Just helps ensure that they don't leave out a few nuts and bolts, or use subgrade materials. 

I think, if you spend a little more time listening and reading, you'll see the VAST majority of advice here is "Sit in the tub and see what you like". (beauty is in the ass of the beholder)  "See if you trust and respect your local dealer" (Things go wrong sometimes) "There are many ways to maintain a tub, if you follow route 1. try this, if you follow route 2, try this". 

You're not going to find a lot of "you're all idiots unless you buy MY hottub" here.