Questions about Arctic Spas

[Steve]

I love these "debates" where everyone knows ohhh soo much about everyone elses product...  

It takes me back to all the "debates" about Beachcombers Protec (equipment outside, under the step) option and how horrible it was in cold climates...

The fact that Beachcomber had sold it this way for years and that we personally sold here in Alberta for almost 2 decades seemed to have no impact on these "people of higher knowledge"... LOL I always got a kick out of that.

If the horror that spaman depicts was remotely accurate, don't you think it would be reported, widely commented on, obvious and industry wide common knowledge and changes would have had to have been made or that we would just watch them go out of business due to the 10's of thousands of warranty claims??  :-?

Obviously....it's not

And yes, it's OK to ask how something works instead of attacking it out of ignorance.

[Summitman]

[glow]I'm not sure I agree with how hot your cabinet gets however, if you talk with any manufacture of the chips, transformers, electronics and even motors they say that optimal operating range for those components is between 0 and 100 degrees.[/glow] That doesn't mean that they can't operate outside of those temps but it's harder on them if they do long term. If you don't believe this than unplug the fan on your computer and see how long it lasts you. In most cases a thermopane cabinet can and will get hotter than that and if it doesn’t then the whole pitch has no merit.

Im sitting here trying to think how Zero degree weather could possibly be considered "optimal" operating conditions for chips, transformers, electronics and even motors.

I can sit here all day and say that Ive got horror stories on all the spas I sell against.  But then again I would be making up stories to make my competition look worse.

Pastries for thought.

[spaman--]

I love these "debates" where everyone knows ohhh soo much about everyone elses product...  

It takes me back to all the "debates" about Beachcombers Protec (equipment outside, under the step) option and how horrible it was in cold climates...

The fact that Beachcomber had sold it this way for years and that we personally sold here in Alberta for almost 2 decades seemed to have no impact on these "people of higher knowledge"... LOL I always got a kick out of that.

If the horror that spaman depicts was remotely accurate, don't you think it would be reported, widely commented on, obvious and industry wide common knowledge and changes would have had to have been made or that we would just watch them go out of business due to the 10's of thousands of warranty claims??  :-?

Obviously....it's not

And yes, it's OK to ask how something works instead of attacking it out of ignorance.

It wasn't necessarily an attack, nor did I use the word "horror" I just told the customer to look into a couple things, if it was not an issue then Arctic would not have came up with a summer skirt, that is vented.(customers should be told about ssid skirt before buying the tub.) I am installing a thermometer in an Arctic cabinet and will measure the temps inside the cabinet vs. the temp of the water. I am very interested in seeing at what temp this spa cabinet is in cold temps. I am not ignorant Steve, as ignorance is standing by and taking any story that comes along as gospel. I do get irritated that noone seems to get or care that if in fact this cabinet is cooler than the water temp the insulation story is bunk. Either that or we just go along with any story that comes along. Stuart has a great point in that there are specs that these electronics are designed to operate at. At no time did he imply operating them in 0 degree temps is optimal, as every spa cabinet is much warmer than the outside air.
I think the name calling and sideline attacking is ignorant rather than offering some kind of fact or input to find solution to the disagreement.

Though I have dropped this several times it seems it is an irritant in the guys representing Arctics sides that there is someone who might question the story.

[Summitman]

It wasn't necessarily an attack, nor did I use the word "horror" I just told the customer to look into a couple things, if it was not an issue then Arctic would not have came up with a summer skirt, that is vented.(customers should be told about ssid skirt before buying the tub.) I am installing a thermometer in an Arctic cabinet and will measure the temps inside the cabinet vs. the temp of the water. I am very interested in seeing at what temp this spa cabinet is in cold temps. I am not ignorant Steve, as ignorance is standing by and taking any story that comes along as gospel. I do get irritated that noone seems to get or care that if in fact this cabinet is cooler than the water temp the insulation story is bunk. Either that or we just go along with any story that comes along. Stuart has a great point in that there are specs that these electronics are designed to operate at. At no time did he imply operating them in 0 degree temps is optimal, as every spa cabinet is much warmer than the outside air.
I think the name calling and sideline attacking is ignorant rather than offering some kind of fact or input to find solution to the disagreement.

Though I have dropped this several times it seems it is an irritant in the guys representing Arctics sides that there is someone who might question the story.

Question all you want spaman, its a great product that stacks up very well with the competition.  I put my family name on it everyday running my business.  

[stuart]

Hillbilly,
Good questions however I have to question how much service background you've actually had....

In 20 years I've never seen more bees and bugs in a fully foamed tub! How could that be? They take the least path of resistance and the open chamber is much more welcoming than a closed one.

We have an issue here with spiders in TP cabinets...They love the dark open space for webs. Sure I've also see them in equipment compartments on full foam tubs but not nearly to the degree that I've seen them on TP.

As far as the plumbing getting "dried out" from the curing of the foam...I'm not sure what you’re talking about here but the plumbing doesn't "Dry out" in any "curing”. Our enemy is air when it comes to plumbing, air and possibly chemicals. Open any older HS spa (I use them as an example because they have a lot of ff spa out that are older) and look at the small tubing in the equipment compartment then look at some of the small tubing locked in the foam. Both can be a bit brittle however the tubing by the motors is very stiff and fragile and cannot be manipulated.

When you talk about "wrapping" a foam cup...What are you talking about? I can't remember anyone putting a sleeve over the heavy white foam cups that have been around forever to keep them from getting to warm but see them do that on the paper or thin foam used by some of the big companies. Just for logic sake why don't you contact an insulation company and see what they think of some of this?

Now to readdress the operating temp of the components... The bottom line is this; your thinking in the terms of water damage not wear....any component that can create heat will survive better in cooler conditions than hotter, that's just common sense. Heat breaks down plastics and metals much faster than cold does. If you don’t believe this than again, shut the fan off in your computer for awhile or better yet let it run in a cold environment like your garage and see if it shuts down then set it in the sun in front of your window while it operates and see if it has any problems. More than likely it will crash if it sets in the sunlight while operating very long.

As far as whether your product lasts or holds up against any other product, I would have to say that it does fine but as far as whether it makes more sense and is better than other products...that's where the battle begins. The key tricky phrase here is "Does it make sense" vs. "Does it make more sense".

Then to Steve's comment...I agree that often everyone thinks they know more about the competitors product than their own in these debates but also believe it is vital to know and understand not only your product but to become extremely knowledgeable in your competition. In this case we should probably take out the name brand and compare a style or philosophy of manufacturing a product. That's just kinda hard when so many think their brand is so different or so much better than everyone else.

The frustrating part for me is how many people comment with partial knowledge of what they are talking about and forgo common sense to support a myopic view of their revenue producing stream.

[Tom]

These threads are interesting.   Stuart pointed out some time ago that my experience is almost exclusively with Arctic (as employee) and Beachcomber (as former owner); since then, I've made a point of carefully examining other hot tubs that I see at demos, on display, etc.    I forget - what brand, if any,  does Spaman represent?

One part of my job on the forums is to "Provide accurate factual information [about our company or product] in response to (i) Direct queries (ii) Posts which contain inaccurate or false information."

IMO Spaman's assertion of interior temperatures approaching 250F is intentionally provocative; he meant to bug us, and like Pavlov's trained dogs, we have all responded.   That's why I said I didn't have time to play last week.  

Nonetheless, keep your eyes on facts.
1. Since water BOILS at 212F (less at higher altitudes), that 250F temperature is on the face of it ridiculous
2. I shared a study showing that at 100F ambient in hot sun, the interirior of a car approaches 195F (far short of 250) using the greenhouse effect which traps heat.  Again, the 250F figure is clearly unlikely for an insulated space.
3. I point out, respectfully, that any insulated home in 100F ambient and full sun would not come even close to 250F -- you live there, you know that.  
4. I shared a study showing internal temperatures recorded for eight different spas, regardless of construction.
5. Hillbilly pointed out that unreasonably high cavity temperatures would have disastrous warranty and customer satisfaction consequences.   For the first, I can say that our warranty rates are equal to or better than those of other brands for which I have information (I am not allowed to release details, so don't ask).  For the second, I point out that we are SpaSearch Certified -- recognition based entirely on customer satisfaction surveys.

Our product was engineered for cold temperatures; for hot weather configurations, we offer two hardware solutions to prevent the possibility of overheating so that the spa will operate correctly in "the world's harshest climates".

Spaman has offered to put a temperature probe inside an Arctic Spa to see what he gets.  That's a reasonable approach.

[spaman--]

These threads are interesting.   Stuart pointed out some time ago that my experience is almost exclusively with Arctic (as employee) and Beachcomber (as former owner); since then, I've made a point of carefully examining other hot tubs that I see at demos, on display, etc.    I forget - what brand, if any,  does Spaman represent?

One part of my job on the forums is to "Provide accurate factual information [about our company or product] in response to (i) Direct queries (ii) Posts which contain inaccurate or false information."

IMO Spaman's assertion of interior temperatures approaching 250F is intentionally provocative; he meant to bug us, and like Pavlov's trained dogs, we have all responded.   That's why I said I didn't have time to play last week.  

Nonetheless, keep your eyes on facts.
1. Since water BOILS at 212F (less at higher altitudes), that 250F temperature is on the face of it ridiculous
2. I shared a study showing that at 100F ambient in hot sun, the interirior of a car approaches 195F (far short of 250) using the greenhouse effect which traps heat.  Again, the 250F figure is clearly unlikely for an insulated space.
3. I point out, respectfully, that any insulated home in 100F ambient and full sun would not come even close to 250F -- you live there, you know that.  
4. I shared a study showing internal temperatures recorded for eight different spas, regardless of construction.
5. Hillbilly pointed out that unreasonably high cavity temperatures would have disastrous warranty and customer satisfaction consequences.   For the first, I can say that our warranty rates are equal to or better than those of other brands for which I have information (I am not allowed to release details, so don't ask).  For the second, I point out that we are SpaSearch Certified -- recognition based entirely on customer satisfaction surveys.

Our product was engineered for cold temperatures; for hot weather configurations, we offer two hardware solutions to prevent the possibility of overheating so that the spa will operate correctly in "the world's harshest climates".

Spaman has offered to put a temperature probe inside an Arctic Spa to see what he gets.  That's a reasonable approach.

1) I never said that the temp of the water reaches 250f I was referring to inside of the cavity itself, I will admit I have not yet put a probe in an Arcitic cavity to measure these temps. I may have been a bit high, my whole point was that the temp of these cabinets get way to high for the componants that are inside the cabinet. The new pumps they are using are actually a great pump. Expensive to replace but great. The electronics and plumbing in high temps over time will become brittle. Arctic has admitted that the cabinets get too hot or they would not have designed a vented cabinet for their spas.I have first hand experienced atleast ten Arctic spas in our area that the water in the tub was above 107F. We live in a windy environment so lifting the lid to let the heat escape is not an option because of debris.

2) If the cabinet temp is not maintaining temps higher than the temp of the water in the tub then you are losing temp in the tub and wasting energy to not only heat the water in the tub but now you must pay to heat the cabinet as well.

3) your analogy of the car makes no sense, on a day when it is freezing outside turn your car of and see how long you can sit in it before it gets cold. Now if in the hot car you crank your heater on high your analogy holds water but then you have to remeasure the temp in the car.

I will let you know what we find on the operation temp of the cabinet, I am curious as to what temp this cabinet is all through the winter. One would hope it maintains above the water temp. And no I don't like my water @ 73F.

[Summitman]

1.[glow] Expensive to replace but great[/glow].

Not so much, actually the price of the pumps is about the same.  But I guess YOU do know everything.

[Summitman]

[glow]The electronics and plumbing in high temps over time will become brittle. Arctic has admitted that the cabinets get too hot or they would not have designed a vented cabinet for their spas.I have first hand experienced atleast ten Arctic spas in our area that the water in the tub was above 107F. We live in a windy environment so lifting the lid to let the heat escape is not an option because of debris. [/glow]

Since we are speaking about this, I live in a windy environment that gets extremely hot and extremely cold (kansas), and have sold and owned the Arctic spa for over ten years.  The only thing we have had to do is occasionally put a tennis ball under the spa cover to release some heat in the middle of August.  And yes it reaches over 100 degrees for weeks at a time.  Kind of funny too, that we have customers who have OTHER brands that have to do the SAME tennis ball trick, because of excessive heat.  And since I have people who have owned Arctics for over ten years now I have never replaced a pump, pvc, heater, pack from being too brittle or from being exposed to excessive heat.  But again what do I know?  

PS i have a digital thermometer running on my spa right now that will test the interior temperatures that our pumps and packs have to operate in.  I hope that they can BOIL since spaman says they need to be able to!!!

Its a great product that holds up very well in all types of conditions.  

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

I'd appreciate it if you could put that thermometer under the cabinet and get a temp reading :-)

I highly doubt temps close to 250, but if they are in the range of about 180, I might be looking for a new spa  8-)

See, I have this amazing recipe for duck, that requires cooking for 8 hours at 180 degrees. It's a bit tough to do in my oven as the duck needs to be hung from the top of the oven with a drip pan underneath. My oven just isn't tall enough. I'm also thinking, the duck aroma therapy would be rather astounding! Let me know  

[East_TX_Spa]

[spaman--]

You guys with this boiling thing crack me up as I was never once was talking about the water being able to boil, that is just stupid! We are talking about the inside of that cabinet. Does it continually operate above the temp of the water in the tub? If so how high? I can never seem to get a reply from any of the Arctic guys as to how the dead air space can actually contribute to the actual heating of the tub if the temp in the cabinet is below that of the water. The answer is it can't, it is actually costing more to heat the tub and the cabinet. But what do I know? I am new to this whole industry.

[Summitman]

You guys with this boiling thing crack me up as I was never once was talking about the water being able to boil, that is just stupid! We are talking about the inside of that cabinet. Does it continually operate above the temp of the water in the tub? If so how high? I can never seem to get a reply from any of the Arctic guys as to how the dead air space can actually contribute to the actual heating of the tub if the temp in the cabinet is below that of the water. The answer is it can't, it is actually costing more to heat the tub and the cabinet. But what do I know? I am new to this whole industry.

Right now the temp in my Arctic cabinet is 102 degrees.  Its been running and reading the temp for over two hours now and the highest its gotten is 106 degrees.  Oh by the way I have the heater unplugged from the pack so its just using the waste heat off the pumps while its filtrating to keep the spa at 104 degrees.

[Summitman]

You guys with [glow]this boiling thing crack me up as I was never once was talking about the water being able to boil, that is just stupid[/glow]

p.s. calling people stupid isnt a great way to debate, but maybe thats just me.  Also saying the temp in the cabinet is 250 degrees is saying that the water is boiling in the spa.  

[Summitman]

[glow]Does it continually operate above the temp of the water in the tub? If so how high? I can never seem to get a reply from any of the Arctic guys as to how the dead air space can actually contribute to the actual heating of the tub if the temp in the cabinet is below that of the water. The answer is it can't, it is actually costing more to heat the tub and the cabinet. But what do I know? I am new to this whole industry[/glow].

I never explained it because youve been unwilling to listen.  Basically the waste heat off the pumps that HAVE to run to filter the water is utilitized to aid the heater in heating and keeping the water warm in the spa.  The pumps, heaters, packs dont have to run any longer than any other brand of spa.  Actually one could argue that the heater runs less which would save money on the bill.  Its not the only way building, not even saying its the best.  Its the way Arctic makes it and it works VERY WELL for me and all my customers.