Questions about Arctic Spas

[spaman--]

Im glad I can make you laugh.  But Ive put that theory to test on my own Arctic spa, and it holds no bearing.  The outside temp or conditions dont effect the temp of the inside cabinet.  That outside insulation works both ways.  

so the temp of the air in the cabinet is constantly hotter than the temp of the water in the spa?

[Summitman]

Im glad I can make you laugh.  But Ive put that theory to test on my own Arctic spa, and it holds no bearing.  The outside temp or conditions dont effect the temp of the inside cabinet.  That outside insulation works both ways.  [/quot

so the temp of the air in the cabinet is constantly hotter than the temp of the water in the spa?

If the cover is on I have found it is the same temp or a tad higher in the cabinet.  If you take the cover off you obviously lose heat.  

[spaman--]

Not in the cabinet it is not.

[Summitman]

Not in the cabinet it is not.

well my thermometer must be whack

[spaman--]

The max operating temp inside the cabinet is to be 120F. You are trying to tell the entire board that this cabinet maintains temps between 102f and 120f?

Why do you suppose they changed to the expensive Italian pump?

I will answer it for you, in a quote from an Arctic engineer:

"The pumps in our spas are also in a very hot environment.... EMG has designed their motors to [use] forced air cooling. They use air flow over the aluminium finned housing to cool the motor. The use of aluminium and the large surface area of the outside of the motor make this design an improvement over [motors from our previous supplier, which] restrict the amount of air flow by running the air through the centre of the motor and use a steel housing which does not conduct the heat as well."

Switching the pump was a good move, but this does not protect the electronics.

[Summitman]

The max operating temp inside the cabinet is to be 120F. You are trying to tell the entire board that this cabinet maintains temps between 102f and 120f?

Why do you suppose they changed to the expensive Italian pump?

I will answer it for you, in a quote from an Arctic engineer:

"The pumps in our spas are also in a very hot environment.... EMG has designed their motors to [use] forced air cooling. They use air flow over the aluminium finned housing to cool the motor. The use of aluminium and the large surface area of the outside of the motor make this design an improvement over [motors from our previous supplier, which] restrict the amount of air flow by running the air through the centre of the motor and use a steel housing which does not conduct the heat as well."

Switching the pump was a good move, but this does not protect the electronics.

I have yet to test a temp in the cabinet above 120 degrees.  You are correct though that the EMG is an excellent pump.  Question for you though, lets say that you assumptions are correct, which they arent.  Why would the manufacturer who makes the electronics warranty the products the Arctic puts in the cabinet, let alone sell to Arctic?  You know it all maybe you can answer this.

[spaman--]

Because they would have to prove on each board that this was the cause and I am not saying that the failure will even come within the warranty, This is why Gecko replaced 1000's of boards for L.A Spas after they swithced to their new filter.

So the heat from the cabinet is building up under your cover?

The engineer that said "our pumps operate in very high temps" he meant 119F?

[Summitman]

Because they would have to prove on each board that this was the cause and I am not saying that the failure will even come within the warranty, This is why Gecko replaced 1000's of boards for L.A Spas after they swithced to their new filter.

So the heat from the cabinet is building up under your cover?

The engineer that said "our pumps operate in very high temps" he meant 119F?

Just an FYI if the temp reaches 117 in the cabinet the HL pops up on the display board that NEVER happens on my spa at home or in the showroom.  So yes he must have been talking about heat less than 117 degrees.  I would think 5-10 years would be enough time for serious damage from constant 250 degree heat.  Im pretty sure that the plastics would be warping or possibly beginning to take different shapes.  But what do I know I just buy and sell and sit em every night!

[spaman--]

Just an FYI if the temp reaches 117 in the cabinet the HL pops up on the display board that NEVER happens on my spa at home or in the showroom.  So yes he must have been talking about heat less than 117 degrees.  I would think 5-10 years would be enough time for serious damage from constant 250 degree heat.  Im pretty sure that the plastics would be warping or possibly beginning to take different shapes.  But what do I know I just buy and sell and sit em every night!

O.K I was misspoken when I said 250f it was a figure as if I were saying it was "hotter than hell outside" I suppose you would expect to look out and see J.A running through hot lava in a speedo. MY BAD!

I have read the average operating temps n the cabinets are between 140f and 150F. This arguemnet has been waged and there atleast 5 customers who came out complaining about hose failures, heat issues, light lens failure issues, even fires (which I do not believe). I would suggest you do a pole as to how many customers have HL popping up and you will be surprised what you find, we had a barrage of calls last summer and we are not even the dealer.

I guess I am upset that the dealers isn't throwing in tennis balls as a closer.
 "tell ya what, buy today and ya get a hole punch for your cover and a set of Louvered cabinets for looks"

customer: "throw in a gallon of that there stain and ya got yourself a deal"

the salesman is happy he didn't have to throw in extra hoses. and thank God the whole light lense and biguanide fiasco is over.

I give up! You win!

[Summitman]

O.K I was misspoken when I said 250f it was a figure as if I were saying it was "hotter than hell outside" I suppose you would expect to look out and see J.A running through hot lava in a speedo. MY BAD!

I have read the average operating temps n the cabinets are between 140f and 150F. This arguemnet has been waged and there atleast 5 customers who came out complaining about hose failures, heat issues, light lens failure issues, even fires (which I do not believe). I would suggest you do a pole as to how many customers have HL popping up and you will be surprised what you find, we had a barrage of calls last summer and we are not even the dealer.

I guess I am upset that the dealers isn't throwing in tennis balls as a closer.
 "tell ya what, buy today and ya get a hole punch for your cover and a set of Louvered cabinets for looks"

customer: "throw in a gallon of that there stain and ya got yourself a deal"

the salesman is happy he didn't have to throw in extra hoses. and thank God the whole light lense and biguanide fiasco is over.

I give up! You win!

Customers call their dealers when a error code pops up, Im sure they call you when or if something pops up on the brand you sell.  Quite frankly we dont get called anymore about HL than any other error code that could pop up.  And to be honest we get asked about the overheating and tennis ball trick by other brands just as much as Arctics.  I dont care what brand you sell their will always be issues pop up, but like Tom stated previously Arctics warranty percentage speaks for itself.  Its no more than any other manufacturer.  
I have been running the demo spa on high speed all morning WITH the cover on and have reached a whopping 110 degrees in the cabinet.  

I dont throw in a half gallon of stain, we personally come out at the request of the customer once a year and apply a coat of stain and seal free of charge.

Thanks for conceding!

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Hillbilly,
Good questions however I have to question how much service background you've actually had....

In 20 years I've never seen more bees and bugs in a fully foamed tub! How could that be? They take the least path of resistance and the open chamber is much more welcoming than a closed one.

We have an issue here with spiders in TP cabinets...They love the dark open space for webs. Sure I've also see them in equipment compartments on full foam tubs but not nearly to the degree that I've seen them on TP.

As far as the plumbing getting "dried out" from the curing of the foam...I'm not sure what you’re talking about here but the plumbing doesn't "Dry out" in any "curing”. Our enemy is air when it comes to plumbing, air and possibly chemicals. Open any older HS spa (I use them as an example because they have a lot of ff spa out that are older) and look at the small tubing in the equipment compartment then look at some of the small tubing locked in the foam. Both can be a bit brittle however the tubing by the motors is very stiff and fragile and cannot be manipulated.

When you talk about "wrapping" a foam cup...What are you talking about? I can't remember anyone putting a sleeve over the heavy white foam cups that have been around forever to keep them from getting to warm but see them do that on the paper or thin foam used by some of the big companies. [glow]Just for logic sake why don't you contact an insulation company and see what they think of some of this?[/glow]
Now to readdress the operating temp of the components... The bottom line is this; your thinking in the terms of water damage not wear....any component that can create heat will survive better in cooler conditions than hotter, that's just common sense. Heat breaks down plastics and metals much faster than cold does. If you don’t believe this than again, shut the fan off in your computer for awhile or better yet let it run in a cold environment like your garage and see if it shuts down then set it in the sun in front of your window while it operates and see if it has any problems. More than likely it will crash if it sets in the sunlight while operating very long.

As far as whether your product lasts or holds up against any other product, I would have to say that it does fine but as far as whether it makes more sense and is better than other products...that's where the battle begins. [glow]The key tricky phrase here is "Does it make sense" vs. "Does it make more sense". [/glow]
Then to Steve's comment...I agree that often everyone thinks they know more about the competitors product than their own in these debates but also believe it is vital to know and understand not only your product but to become extremely knowledgeable in your competition. In this case we should probably take out the name brand and compare a style or philosophy of manufacturing a product. That's just kinda hard when so many think their brand is so different or so much better than everyone else.

The frustrating part for me is how many people comment with partial knowledge of what they are talking about and forgo common sense to support a myopic view of their revenue producing stream.

We did contact an insulating company, a local one not the one that supplies the foam to Clearwater. The boards they use have an R54 value, I am not saying the tub is R54, but thats what that foam has. They also have borates in the foam that will kill any bug or rodent that tries to live in them and thay are water resistant, it is the same foam used for floating gulf coares and in freeway supports.

If it insulates just as well, what is the advantage to full foam to dead air if they insulate the same?

[Spatech_tuo]

If it insulates just as well, what is the advantage to full foam to dead air if they insulate the same?

IMO the key word in that sentence is IF and I don't think they do at all so the advantage fro full foams is in the energy efficiency. Thermal panes do have an advantage in ease of repair but I'd rather save monthly monthly on my electrical bill (big $$ in many cases). Yes, that is just my opinion but what the heck, we're already in the dead horse section and the point was already brought up!

If thermpanes insulated as well as a full foam you'd see full foam manufacturers cutting costs tomorrow to go that route. I would never own a themopane because I don't think any of them come close to insulating as well as a full foam spa but again, that's just my opinion.

I don't see Arctic as a tradtional thermopane; they at least saw that the thermopanes just don't cut it and tried a different approach to try to eliminate the air transfer between the outside air and the cabinet that dooms the thermopanes energy efficiency.

Is Arctic as good at insulating as a full foam? I'm not so sure they are (I don't fully buy into their study) but they should do pretty well and certainly should do better than thermopanes.

[stuart]

I've resisted saying more here but I have to clarify something...If your foam has borates in it I suspect it's only enough for marketing or to prevent bugs and rodents from actually living in the foam. They have to ingest it to for it to harm them and there has to be a strong enough dose to kill them. It you have that much boron in the foam it would have a warning label.

Bug and rodents can still live in the cabinet and probably do...Cedar also has been attemted  as a bug repelent for years however not very effectively.... If you full foamed the spa with a boron impregnated product you might stand a better chance of keeping critters out.

As far as the pros and cons of both types of foam...that's what this is all about and it's an argument that never seems to get resolved.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

They kind of have to chew it up and ingest it to get into the cabinet.

Your right, its an ongoing saga, but there is so many jabs at these tubs not insulating as well as the full foam. WE HAVE HAD BOTH. My Full foam tub costs me more to run than my Clearwater. My customers that have switched from Hot Springs to Clearwater said the Clearwater has been less or the same as their Hot Springs.

So these comments that the ease of servicabilty is out weighed by the cost to operate are crazy. The cost to operate is the at least the same if not better is some cases PLUS you have the ease of repairs.

I also don't like the attitude that we don't know anything"question how long we have been in the field" We have been in this field just shy of 9 years. Not as long as some of you I know, but some of you fall under "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" We also worked for a manufacturer for 5 years. That teaches you totally differnet things.

I don't knock on the high quality full foam tubs either, but we have learned this from these also, working for the manufacturer when they went to foaming there tubs, such as the excessive amount of heat created as the foam cures which will degrade the plastics, cause future glue failures(huh, have we not seen this)

Why such a war if both "styles" of tubs are lasting and energy effcient. Do you all really knock on your compitition when selling a tub? its crazy, and customers do not like you knocking down your compitition.

Maybe why I am still here and my Sundance, Artisien and Hydropool compition is gone an the Jacuzzi dealer is holding on for dear life.

I know you sell a lot of spas, you have a quality product, but this "tude" would push most people away in our area at least.

Sad that some of us can say there are several quality spas out there, each with differnt things, but some think there is only 1 quality spa...whatever they are selling.

I love showing customers threads like this, it seals my sale everytime.

[spaman--]

I knew they couldn't let it rest.

This subject has been dropped for a week now and you can see the rash that it has eaten in Hillbilly's side to hold his tongue. Funny as the local Arctic guys here don't enjoy the same success.