Horse power

[Repeat_Offender]

I guess I'll have to defer to your vast spa knowledge. I didn't realize how companies work in this industry, how spas are made and marketed or that "energy efficient" spas are silly.  

No need to get defensive. The concept of spa operation and construction is well within the grasp of anyone with average mechanical aptitude. I'm sure there are even some salepeople that qualify.
Josh seems more than equal to the task. I'm sure if I approached my local spa guru and quized him on thermal efficiencies, service factors, brake and shaft horespower I'd get this glazed look and he'd quickly defer me to his crackerjack techie...who just happens to be on his lunch break.

[Spatech_tuo]

No need to get defensive.

Nah, that post wasn't meant to be defensive at all. I realize a lot of people get caught up on HP so that part is understandable but when he said "I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly.", I actually laughed. To think that there isn't a difference in energy efficiency is so absurd its funny.

Hopefully he won't be one of the people who come home with a spa that has some fancy name for their insulation method only to find out that theory of how to insulate and how well the manufacturer designs and implements it too often are two very different things. We've all seen many people come here a few months after getting their spa to get advice on how to lower the bill the just got floored with.

[Josh]

Nah, that post wasn't meant to be defensive at all. I realize a lot of people get caught up on HP so that part is understandable but when he said "I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly.", I actually laughed. To think that there isn't a difference in energy efficiency is so absurd its funny.
 

This is what I said:

Pumps take energy, Heaters take energy......I think anyone who claims to have an "energy efficient" tub is just being silly.   No matter what your design is, you're still just a big bowl for hundreds of gallons of water that needs to reach (and maintain) temperatures of over 100 degrees.

I stand by every word of that.

Any hot tub you buy is going to jack your power bill regardless of what some slick talking salesman tells you about it being "energy efficient".  Over the years, I've seen dozens of similar "energy efficient" claims made about chest freezers, refrigerators and air conditioners....and it doesn't take a genius to realize that's all BS too.

They may be efficient compared to some other model of the same appliance, but what happens when you plug any of those things in?  The next month...boom...you'll notice it on the bill.  A hot tub is no different....no matter what the sales pitch says.    Heating water to 102 degrees or so (then keeping it there) takes a lot of juice.  You'll notice it on the bill, no matter how "efficient" it is supposed to be.  That's not even taking into account all the hours you spend out there each month with the jets on.

I'm not arguing that one hot tub may be insulated in such a way that it might save you a few cents per use, and a few bucks per month over another brand of hot tub.  That's probably true.  I'm just saying that it's only a matter of a couple of bucks, and nothing to get excited about. In the grand scheme of things, they're all HUGE power suckers.  They cost more to operate each month than just about any appliance in your home (except maybe the AC in summertime).  

Calling any of them "efficient" is just a stupid sales gimmick.

Hopefully he won't be one of the people who come home with a spa that has some fancy name for their insulation method only to find out that theory of how to insulate and how well the manufacturer designs and implements it too often are two very different things. We've all seen many people come here a few months after getting their spa to get advice on how to lower the bill the just got floored with.
 

I doubt it.  My old hot tub ran almost every day for the past few years.  I'm pretty used to the power consumption of a hot tub by now. Once I get the new tub, I'll be surprised if my bill changes much in the next few months....but I'll definitely take a look at it to see whether it goes up or down compared to the old one.

[Zep]

speaking of "energy efficient".....would an in-ground tub have any
significant plus side as far as retaining heat over a tub sitting on top of a deck?

[Spatech_tuo]

I'm not arguing that one hot tub may be insulated in such a way that it might save you a few cents per use, and a few bucks per month over another brand of hot tub.  


I doubt it.  My old hot tub ran almost every day for the past few years.  I'm pretty used to the power consumption of a hot tub by now. Once I get the new tub, I'll be surprised if my bill changes much in the next few months....but I'll definitely take a look at it to see whether it goes up or down compared to the old one.

It is VERY naive to think all spas are basically alike when it comes to energy efficiency and we're not talking about a "few cents per use" or a "few bucks per month". Two people could buy 2 brand new spas tomorrow, similarly priced similarly powered  (and similar pumps/features), use them the same amount of time in the same climates and it would not surprise me if the more energy efficient spa cost them maybe $40 a month while the less efficient costs 3x that.

[Vanguard]

This is what I said:


I stand by every word of that.

Any hot tub you buy is going to jack your power bill regardless of what some slick talking salesman tells you about it being "energy efficient".  Over the years, I've seen dozens of similar "energy efficient" claims made about chest freezers, refrigerators and air conditioners....and it doesn't take a genius to realize that's all BS too.

They may be efficient compared to some other model of the same appliance, but what happens when you plug any of those things in?  The next month...boom...you'll notice it on the bill.  A hot tub is no different....no matter what the sales pitch says.    Heating water to 102 degrees or so (then keeping it there) takes a lot of juice.  You'll notice it on the bill, no matter how "efficient" it is supposed to be.  That's not even taking into account all the hours you spend out there each month with the jets on.

I'm not arguing that one hot tub may be insulated in such a way that it might save you a few cents per use, and a few bucks per month over another brand of hot tub.  That's probably true.  I'm just saying that it's only a matter of a couple of bucks, and nothing to get excited about. In the grand scheme of things, they're all HUGE power suckers.  They cost more to operate each month than just about any appliance in your home (except maybe the AC in summertime).  

Calling any of them "efficient" is just a stupid sales gimmick.


I doubt it.  My old hot tub ran almost every day for the past few years.  I'm pretty used to the power consumption of a hot tub by now. Once I get the new tub, I'll be surprised if my bill changes much in the next few months....but I'll definitely take a look at it to see whether it goes up or down compared to the old one.

And you base this on your years and years of being in and around this industry?  You own a hot tub.  You did some research when buying a hot tub.  An all knowing expert in this industry you are not.

Among the top brands, energy efficiency differences will be small.  However, there are many brands out there that are not nearly so energy efficient.  Some can cost as much as three to four times a month more to operate.  

I've been reading your posts and have grown tired of how you take the professionals that contribute to this forum and reduce them to sales hacks that are just pushing their brand.  Some of us do know what we are talking about here and are not here to sell a hot tub.  Some folks are here to put good information out and inform consumers who are looking to purchase a hot tub.  None of the professionals here are trying to use sales gimmicks to sell these folks a spa.  For the most part, they couldn't sell them the spa if they wanted due to different locations.

[hottubdan]

It is VERY naive to think all spas are basically alike when it comes to energy efficiency and we're not talking about a "few cents per use" or a "few bucks per month". Two people could buy 2 brand new spas tomorrow, similarly priced similarly powered  (and similar pumps/features), use them the same amount of time in the same climates and it would not surprise me if the more energy efficient spa cost them maybe $40 a month while the less efficient costs 3x that.

That is exactly what we hear from customers.  We have sold many spas to people eho bought their 1st spa from the mass merchant with the great return policy.  They said their spas were costing over $100/month.

[Josh]

It is VERY naive to think all spas are basically alike when it comes to energy efficiency ........

And you base this on your years and years of being in and around this industry?  You own a hot tub.  You did some research when buying a hot tub.  An all knowing expert in this industry you are not.

Jeez.  Guys.  Slow down.  
I will happily admit I'm not an expert in this area.  I bow to your infinite wisdom on the subject.  You are spa masters and I am but your humble student.  

Everyone's ego feeling better?  Ok.

All I've been saying is that spas take a lot of power to operate.  All spas.  That....was my only point.  I can't believe people are actually still arguing with me about that.

[Spatech_tuo]

Everyone's ego feeling better?  Ok.

Some of us come here to stay in tune with what is out there, to read about what others see, to help others with our experience, etc. That kind of comment is inaccurate and ridiculous.

[Tom]

I'm not arguing that one hot tub may be insulated in such a way that it might save you a few cents per use, and a few bucks per month over another brand of hot tub.  That's probably true.  I'm just saying that it's only a matter of a couple of bucks, and nothing to get excited about....Calling any of them "efficient" is just a stupid sales gimmick.

In a test of thermal efficiency of eight hot tubs, the Alberta Research Council found that at -12C, the most efficient model tested used 266W/m³*h while the least efficient used 968W/m³*h or over three and a half times as much energy.   So where a "silly" energy-efficient hot tub might cost $30 a month, a less-efficient unit might cost over $100.  That difference is considerably more than "a few cents" and the facts suggest that there is more involved than "a stupid sales gimmick".  

There are actually some physics and engineering involved.

[hottubdan]

In a test of thermal efficiency of eight hot tubs, the Alberta Research Council found that at -12C, the most efficient model tested used 266W/m³*h while the least efficient used 968W/m³*h or over three and a half times as much energy.   So where a "silly" energy-efficient hot tub might cost $30 a month, a less-efficient unit might cost over $100.  That difference is considerably more than "a few cents" and the facts suggest that there is more involved than "a stupid sales gimmick".  

There are actually some physics and engineering involved.

Tom,

Is that Canadien $ or US?

Did they test at higher temps?  Josh in Seattle area and I in northern CA don't get -12C to often.

[Repeat_Offender]

Isn't the internet wonderful? With Google and cut/paste everyone's an expert.

Tom, is that comparing a high end modern spa with one of those wooden uninsulated ones?

Meaningless data on it's own.

[Josh]

Wasn't there another response before this one?  It seems to have disappeared.

Some of us come here to stay in tune with what is out there, to read about what others see, to help others with our experience, etc. That kind of comment is inaccurate and ridiculous.

Some of you may very well come here for that reason. It seems that others come here to trash competing brands and make ridiculous claims about the quality of the brands they sell.  It's tough to tell which people are helpful and which are full of it....but believe me I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

So....if you're in a helpful mood, perhaps you could let me know which brands exactly are considered the "Top brands" that you consider to be "energy efficient".  Also...maybe you could give me a list of the ones that aren't.   It might be a useful reference for people.

[hottubdan]

So....if you're in a helpful mood, perhaps you could let me know which brands exactly are considered the "Top brands" that you consider to be "energy efficient".  Also...maybe you could give me a list of the ones that aren't.   It might be a useful reference for people.

Well Josh,

Hot Spring and Arctic are the [glow]only[/glow] brands that I know of that have published 3rd party testing.  For what it is worth:

http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/energy_testing.html

http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/custom_content/12/12/

Of course, studies are open to interpretation.  Arctic studies use some criteria of temperatures that are outside the norm for millions of potential spa owners.  Hot Spring study refers to a specific use pattern that is probably close to real use for most people and refers to several ambient temperatures.

If there are and other 3rd party tests out there I would like to see them.  Not interested in any self reporting tests.

[Josh]

If there are and other 3rd party tests out there I would like to see them.  Not interested in any self reporting tests.

Yeah...that data isn't really helpful considering they're only publishing the specs on their own models.  I'm more curious about comparisons against other leading (and not-so leading) manufacturers.  After all...the claim I've heard repeated over and over in this thread is that "the top brands are energy efficient".  I'm curious which brands are on that list...and which aren't (and where people are sourcing their data from).

I wonder if a truly independent 3rd party has ever done a study like this....and done research on more than just one tub?