Sundance Optima or Sunrise Paragon? Interesting scenario ...

[Hot Tub Weightlifter]

Hey folks - I am a hot tub "newbie" and have narrowed down my choices to the following:

 - a 2010 Sundance Optima (floor model) or a 2011 Sunrise Paragon

I am in a unique situation as I have a Direct Buy membership here in Canada and live only about an hour from the Sunrise manufacturing facility in Grimsby, ON.  I went to the facility's warehouse and wet tested a model from their Paragon line and came away quite impressed.  I liked the placement of the jets and I with my membership I could save a nice sum $$ opposed to buying from a retailer as DB carries the Sunrise Paragon line here in Canada.  My wife is a little hesitant as she worries about the dealer/customer relationship and was concerned about future servicing of the tub.  These concerns were alleviated somewhat as a local dealer said they would be willing to do work on the tub but that I would likely have to deal directly with Sunrise regarding reimbursement of work done under warranty.  After visiting the facility I came away more confident that I would be dealing with a  reputable company (been in business for more than 20 years) and that I could deal with them directly if the situation presents itself.

Option #2 is a 2010 Sundance Optima that comes loaded with almost all of the goodies - stereo, ozonator, hydraulic lifter, etc.  The dealer (very reputable) carrying them is looking to clear out their Sundance floor models.  The original "list" price was just over $15 000 (ouch!) not including taxes which in ON is 13%.  In some preliminary negotiations, the dealer quoted me $14,000 taxes all in.  Two weeks later,  I tentatively suggested that my ceiling price would be $12, 500 all in with taxes incl. This price did not include start up chemicals nor the steps which is what I conceded with the $12, 500 offer. 

Any advice on which option you would choose?  Both tubs satisfy my requirements.  I like the idea that Sunrise is Canadian (supporting the local economy) and that they use a thermal blanket insulation system using Roxul insulation making the tub much easier to service in the future in case of a leak or other plumbing issue (lower maintenance costs potentially) as compared to the full foam insulation that the Sundance uses which invariably leads to higher costs due to the labor.  With basically the same features/options as the Sundance, I can get the Sunrise Paragon (brand new custom made 2011) for about $1,500 less than the 2010 Sundance Optima which has been around to several home shows, filled with water and wet tested who knows how many times but comes from a reputable dealer who will no doubt give great customer satisfaction after a potential purchase.

After weighing the pro's and con's, I'm still leaning towards the Sunrise but I thought I would solicit some of the expert opinions on this board ....

cheers - HTL

[ejf The Spa Guy]

I see no responses on this yet,, I still am not a fan of buying from a big box store, on a hot tub,,, even Direct Buy, they are suppose to be exclusive buy in club so you should be able to get the hi end products,,, you will not find a hi end spa on there. Whats funny in our town the Direct Buy just closed down.....I would look at the Sundance., But if your looking to stay with a Canadian Spa company, Their are several to look at: H20 Spas, Beachcomber, Arctic just to name a couple i would definately check out the 3 of them ahead of the Sunrise ,, Check out the H20

[Hot Tub Weightlifter]

Thanks for your advice.  I do plan on checking out the Arctic spas as they do come highly rated.  A friend of mine who used to be in the hot tub business recommended them as well but he also had an excellent opinion of the Sunrise brand as well.  He may be a little biased as he has a Sunrise Meridian himself and used to carry that brand ... nonetheless .... Checked out Beachcomber - a good tub but not overly impressed with the main components located on the outside of the tub under the steps.  To me it means a lot of extra heat that is left to escape outside the tub. 

Not sure if comparing Direct Buy with just being another "big box store" is entirely accurate.  I've done the required research and wet tested several brands and I would put the Paragon (Sunrise's high end tub) on par with the many other leading brands out there.  Again I am a little more comfortable with the "ease of accessibility" on the Sunrise and the fact that I have a dealer 5 min. away from me who would work on it even if I don't go through him to purchase the spa.  The Sundance is an exceptional tub no doubt but I'm not a big fan of full foam insulation particularly in the Canadian winters.  The more I dig around these forums the more I notice that manufacturers from the southern parts of the U.S. (California, Las Vegas, etc) tend to use the full foam which is suitable for their climates but the last thing that I would want is a leak just after the warranty expired on a full foam tub ($$$). 

Don't know much about the H2O spas but I have a feeling they may be more $$ than I'm willing to shell out.  Thanks for the advice.

[ndabunka]

Hey folks - I am a hot tub "newbie" and have narrowed down my choices to the following:

 - a 2010 Sundance Optima (floor model) or a 2011 Sunrise Paragon

I am in a unique situation as I have a Direct Buy membership...

Any advice on which option you would choose?

... I can get the Sunrise Paragon (brand new custom made 2011) for about $1,500 less than the 2010 Sundance Optima...

That price difference does NOT look like you are getting any special pricing from Sunrise but rather that Sunrise is selling you a tub (AT RETAIL) through Direct Buy.  Sundance is a STAPLE in the industry with ISO 9001 certifications (for quality) and has an entire slew of dealers to stand behind them.  I am certain that the Sunrise factory looks impressive (don't they all?) and they are probably pretty good at presenting their products.  However, if it TRUELY were at a wholesale price, shouldn't it be more like $6K (or around 50% off)?  There are not many spas that sell for more than $11K RETAIL.  Sundance, Dimension One, a few others as well but as a leading spa manufacture told me to my face, 70 to 80% of the spas they sell are all UNDER $10K.  The sunrise might be a consideration if it was $4K less than the market leader, Sundance.

[ejf The Spa Guy]

I still am not a fan of buying from a BOX STORE which i still put Direct buy in this category, they do not service the spa, the do not have the knowledge to fall back on if you have an issue ( at that point you need to check with the factory) ......support, support, support, I see you have checked some other brands,I think you should still check out the H20 i think your assumption of priced higher than the others... not.. they will be in the same range,,, ,, and they insulate with Roxul insulation, Also i sell the thermal chamber, full foam, Roxul insulated, and fiberglass insulated tubs, I like all the styles, i can tell you the ins and outs on all ... I would not let were they are built sway you. I can tell you we have less service calls on leaks on the foam spas then i do the others, all the styles have there advantages..and disadvantages.. ON the Thermal chamber spas make sure you buy with the low amp 24/7 circulation pump..I am not far from Canada . We are in Spokane.. so we get cold also.. My personal tub is 1996 D1 fully foamed and have never had a leak issue..Full foam for their environments....they are warmr they do not need the foam, they made them when they saw the need for them in colder climates...

[Hot Tub Weightlifter]

Thanks for your input.  After crunching the numbers more closely I can save closer to $3000 if I choose the Sunrise 2011 (purchased through Direct Buy) as opposed to the 2010 Sundance Optima if I decide not to go with the stereo option and a special lighting package - you know the frills and gimmicks that are usually over priced to begin with and something that I can easily do without.  Of course, this $3000 savings assumes that the Sundance dealer would accept an offer of $12 500 on the Optima.  The Sunrise (from DB) comes out to slightly under $10 000 with taxes all in - not quite the $4 000 savings stipulated earlier but certainly getting closer.  By the way this price includes cover, steps, hydraulic cover lifter, GFI and start up chemicals.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on DB being just another "box store".  I know for a fact that the quality of the tubs sold by some of the big price clubs out there don't even come close to the quality of the Sunrise in terms of insulation and other features.  True enough, they do not have people on staff that will directly service the tub but I have a dealer local to me who sells Sunrises that will even if I don't purchase the unit from him directly.  I know that dealers and others posting on this forum will emphasize the invaluable service they provide after the sale as they rightly should as this is their "bread and butter".  I guess it all depends on how much I value the service aspect.  Is paying an extra $3000 for the price of a tub worth it to establish a solid customer/dealer relationship?  Some people might say yes - others no.  A savings of $3000 can buy a lot of service down the road.  Service may be important for the serious things like plumbing, etc. but it is not exactly rocket science to figure out how to chemically balance a hot tub. By the way, I have not ruled out buying the Sunrise from the local dealer as well.  He quoted me a price of just under $12 000 with taxes all in.  If I can get him to throw in some of the "extras" like steps, cover lifter, etc. I would seriously consider buying from him even though it might cost me a little extra as I've had positive dealings with him and I believe he is genuine and I do put a value on the customer-dealer relationship but the cost/benefit has to be worthwhile.

I appreciate your comments about your experiences with full foam tubs.  No doubt Sundance (and other full foam tubs) are great manufacturers but if someone ever got a full foam tub that was a "lemon" and sprung a leak just after the warranty expired, one might be tempted to ditch the tub as the labor costs to cut through the insulation, locate the leak and repair it would be excessive. The Sunrise (and most other non-full foamed tubs for that matter) would be a fraction of the cost to repair hands down.  Around my parts, the going rate for a service person is $100/hour.  This is not the only reason but certainly a big factor why I'm saying no to the Sundance.  Cheers.