Cost/hassle of repairing leaks in full-foam insulation?

[gordholio99]

Hi:

I'm in the process of shopping for a new hot tub. I know there's a huge debate over the best insulation method (solid-packed foam vs open-cavity thermal), and I don't want to further that debate. My concern isn't which is better because I'm likely going to go with a foam-filled unit as most of the better manufacturers utilize that method. Moreover, the selection of spas is a bit limited where I live, and it's hard to find ANY spa locally that's thermally insulated.

Anyway, my *real" concern is the expense involved in finding leaks, clearing away the foam, and re-foaming foam-filled tubs that have sprung an interior leak. I know this will happen eventually, and I've heard some real horror stories as to how many hours/how many dollars it will cost me. So...are there any knowledgeable folks and/or servicepeople here who might be able to clue me in?

Furthermore, I'm thinking that if my foam-filled tub springs an interior leak many years down the road and I'm already going to spend a bunch of money to peel away big chunks of foam around that leak and repair it, it might be a good idea at the time to hack out ALL the foam, replace all the plumbing, and then replace all the foam. That way, I wouldn't be forced to go through a ton of hassle and cash outlay again when a second or third leak inevitably pops up.

Sorry for babbling. Hope I made sense. :-) Thanks so much in advacne to anyone who replies.

[Spatech_tuo]

 I'm not sure what exactly your question is so I'll just comment on a couple things you said..

1) I don't agree that "I know this will happen eventually" when you talk about leaks. In fact if you do get a leak more than likely it'll be in the equipment compartment where a pump is attached or something of that like. I have a 9 yr old full foam spa that I've never had to deal with a leak on and I expect it'll run another 9 years without that changing. Leaks obviously can happen at a certain % but they are not an eventuality.

2) If a leak appears I'd fix it. I would NOT arbitrarily replace all the other plumbing around it that doesn't have a problem unless I have some reason to believe the glue was bad on that spa or saw some reason to do so.

[gordholio99]

Thanks for the reply, spatech. I knew I'd babbled too much. :-)

I guess I'm looking for an idea of the general cost of repairing an "interior" (for want of a better expression) leak that's buried within the foam of a fully-foamed hot tub shell. I'm not a spa technician or repair person, so I'd like to get an idea before I buy whether I'd be looking at a couple of hours and a $100 bill, a half day and a $250 bill, or far more than that.

And yes, I do know that each situation will be different. Just trying to get a ballpark. As you probably know, many "thermal" manufacturers use the ease of access to interior plumping as a selling feature, and I wonder if it's as big a deal as they say.

Thanks again.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Full foam spas are much less prone to leaking due to the plumbing being fully supported. In fact, it's actually QUITE RARE for a full foam spa to get a leak under the foam. As far as repair time, it really depends on the experience of the person doing the repair. For someone that's never done it before, figure on hours. For someone experienced, 1 hour isn't unusual.

BTW, $100 to get a service tech to your house for 2 hours? Goooooooood luck. Round here, 2 hours would run you in the neighborhood of $250

[Spatech_tuo]

Full foam spas are much less prone to leaking due to the plumbing being fully supported. In fact, it's actually QUITE RARE for a full foam spa to get a leak under the foam. As far as repair time, it really depends on the experience of the person doing the repair. For someone that's never done it before, figure on hours. For someone experienced, 1 hour isn't unusual.

BTW, $100 to get a service tech to your house for 2 hours? Goooooooood luck. Round here, 2 hours would run you in the neighborhood of $250

The other point is that thermo pane spas are often not well insulated (IMO, though some will point to a couple brands that do it fairly well) and you end up paying $30, $50, $70 ... more per month to insulate them versus a one of the well insulated full foam brands so the logic of saving $ on future repairs by avoiding fully insulated foamed spas is shortsighted IMO.

[Tman122]

Hi:

I'm in the process of shopping for a new hot tub. I know there's a huge debate over the best insulation method (solid-packed foam vs open-cavity thermal), and I don't want to further that debate. My concern isn't which is better because I'm likely going to go with a foam-filled unit as most of the better manufacturers utilize that method. Moreover, the selection of spas is a bit limited where I live, and it's hard to find ANY spa locally that's thermally insulated.

Anyway, my *real" concern is the expense involved in finding leaks, clearing away the foam, and re-foaming foam-filled tubs that have sprung an interior leak. I know this will happen eventually, and I've heard some real horror stories as to how many hours/how many dollars it will cost me. So...are there any knowledgeable folks and/or servicepeople here who might be able to clue me in?

Furthermore, I'm thinking that if my foam-filled tub springs an interior leak many years down the road and I'm already going to spend a bunch of money to peel away big chunks of foam around that leak and repair it, it might be a good idea at the time to hack out ALL the foam, replace all the plumbing, and then replace all the foam. That way, I wouldn't be forced to go through a ton of hassle and cash outlay again when a second or third leak inevitably pops up.

Sorry for babbling. Hope I made sense. :-) Thanks so much in advacne to anyone who replies.

I've done a few repairs on fully foamed in hot tubs. Most only took a couple hours but a couple were tougher. But these repairs were never repaired because the tub "just started leaking" All but one of the repairs I have done on these tubs were because of freeze damage.

[gordholio99]

Thanks, Tman. Yeah, the general impression here and at other forums is that hard to access leaks in fully foamed spas simply don't happen much. I am becoming more convinced now that that should not play a role in my spa-buying decision.

[cavalier]

My Sundance has been in operation since late 1989.

The summer of 2009 a leak developed in a 1 1/2" main suction line Tee with a 1/2" bull.  The T is located under the filter cavity.  Why did it leak?  Well, the 1/2" hose into the T hardened with age and ozone and began dripping at the fitting proper.

The repair is very difficult as there is no room to properly lay under the tub and handle a drill, swab glue.and install a new section of hose with a coupling.  Resulting in a partially successfully repair.

The leak slowed down to requiring repleshment of 3" of water once a month.

So the leak will continue to drip until April or May when I can empty the spa and jack it up to really repair the joint.

In the meanwhile I replaced the removed original foam from the work zone (24" x 28"x 24") with standard home wall type insulation and closed up the panel for the winter.

How I found the leak area was to probe the insulation with a sharpened wooden dowel.

The instant spa leak stuff in a bottle did not work as this was a suction line and thus the stuff did not get into the leaking fitting.  Actually the leak stops when the jet pump is in operation.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

This is actually a pretty simple repair. Once you locate the exact area of the leak, partially plug off the the filter till air is sucked through the leak. Slap a little primer on the leak (it'll get pulled into the void), then slap a little glue on it (it will also get pulled in). Reduce the blockage on the filter by about 50%, and leave the pump running for an hour. Should be fixed.

[Tman122]

This is actually a pretty simple repair. Once you locate the exact area of the leak, partially plug off the the filter till air is sucked through the leak. Slap a little primer on the leak (it'll get pulled into the void), then slap a little glue on it (it will also get pulled in). Reduce the blockage on the filter by about 50%, and leave the pump running for an hour. Should be fixed.

Doc your not supposed to be giving away top secret repair stuff. How do you think we justify 75-95 bucks an hour??

[cavalier]

Thank you Doc.  It's too cold to attempt now, but I will get back to it soon.

[stuart]

I thought I would throw a recent experience in here. I worked on two leaking spas in the same day...One was an Arctic that had no foam around the plumbing and the other was a Cal Spa with full foam.

I had to pull every panel off the Arctic because there were water droplets all over the place and no indication of what side it was coming from. On the call I pulled the panel that water was dripping from and followed the wet foam to the brown and discolored foam.

Because I had to "re-foam" the Cal both spas took about the same amount of time to fix but the Arctic was harder to diagnose and to actually get to the problem.

On the Cal the digging of the foam was messier than it was on the Arctic and spraying the new foam is also always messy but I'm well practiced and it worked fine.

We were at subzero temps and both spas had been down for a few days. When I got into the heart of the foam on the cal I actually found warm water locked in the foam. The arctic had frozen and broken a main trunk line in addition to the original leak that caused the system to drop below filter level and leak.

In this scenario I preferred working on the full foam…. Had the leak been more obvious on the Arctic it would have the easy one with less prep and finish work.

Overall both were just about the same amount of time to complete.

[gordholio99]

Awesome reply Stuart. Great info - that's exactly the type of stuff I'm looking for. Thanks for taking the time to write it all down.

[Summitman]

The following is just my experience with working on Arctics.  The leaks are VERY easy to find and MUCH easier to fix.  I would find it hard to believe in most circumstances that a full foam leak is fixed in the same amount of time as a thermopane leak. 

[ndabunka]

The following is just my experience with working on Arctics.  The leaks are VERY easy to find and MUCH easier to fix.  I would find it hard to believe in most circumstances that a full foam leak is fixed in the same amount of time as a thermopane leak. 

I guess the question one should consider as a higher priority is "Which one is more LIKELY to have a leak in the first place" and the answer to that would be the thermal-pane design is more prone to leaks as there is less support to the plumbing and thus more likely to develop leaks.  An ounce of prevention (full foam's support superiority) is better than a pound of cure (patching a leak in a thermal pane design).  Now, I am not saying that ALL full foam spas are less prone to leaking.  Truth is that a cheap spa, is a cheap spa and therefore even if it is full foam, it may well have poor support (e.g. some no-name brand).  I am also not saying that ALL thermo-pane designs have poor support.  Truth is that a well built, name brand tub (like Artic) is probably less prone to leaking than any of the other only slightly lesser named spas (including emerald and others).  So, spend the $'s up front and you won't have to worry about leaks as much as if you try to "get by on the cheap".