Dichlor (The Dirty Little Secret)

[Spatech_tuo]

I named this thread to get the attention of people using Dichlor, not to attack anyone.

When you name something "dichlor, the dirty little secret" then you are clearly saying someone is deceiving someone else which is a joke.

But to be fair, I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers.

Exactly, you have an agenda that goes beyond the obvious self promotion. Yet then you turn around and out of the other side of your mouth you say "I'd rather this thread turn into a discussion about ideas and solutions, rather than attacks.".

Of course I imagine you'll say that you went into a spa store one day and the guy was like a used car salesmen so you there use that as a wide brush to make your sweeping statments about most spa dealers.

[Nitro]

When you name something "dichlor, the dirty little secret" then you are clearly saying someone is decieiving someone else which is a joke.

It's decieiving NOT to tell someone the whole story, when you know it yourself.

Exactly, you have an agenda. And tehn you turn around and ot of the other side of your mouth you say

My only agenda is to inform people about the risks of using only Dichlor, and suggest an alternative. What's your agenda, to destroy the messenger?

[Spatech_tuo]

It's decieiving NOT to tell someone the whole story, when you know it yourself.

My only agenda is to inform people about the risks of using only Dichlor, and suggest an alternative. What's your agenda, to destroy the messenger?

Its not the "whole" story. Its your story.

This entire "dirty little secrets" thread is an unfounded attack on dealers and the fact that you even come out and say "I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers" pretty much explains your agenda.

[Nitro]

Its not the "whole" story. Its your story.

These are facts, that are not disputed, even by you. You're only argument is that you never had (seen) a problem with using only Dichlor. The fact is there is plenty of evidence that says it is riskier, especially during high bather loads.

This entire "dirty little secrets" thread is an unfounded attack on dealers and the fact that you even come out and say "I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers" pretty much explains your agenda.

No, it's founded on scientific facts. I happen to trust truck drivers (who aren't selling anything) over anyone who is (spa dealers). I don't trust car dealers either. Big deal!

Why don't you just state your experience, opinion, and let the folks decide? Again, what's you agenda, to silence the messenger?

[Jacuzzi Jim]

If I took the time to tell a customer all you have posted so simply,I wouldn't get anything done.  Most if not all retailers cant spend that amount of time explaining all that. Because I could guarantee you the customers eyes would gloss over like a dear caught in headlights.  

 Or do we tell them just use dichlor once, then bleach the rest of the time, maintain your PH/alk and all will be fine and call me if there is a problem?   What you have written over how many pages and threads doesn't seem that easy to me.  

  I love dealing with chemical questions hell any spa related question for that matter. But, you can spend a great deal of time with a person or on the phone with one whether they bought a spa from us or not  . Now if its slow not a problem.  If its really busy its another story.

 Try not to take what everyone says so personal,  we have opinions as well, it doesn't sound like you are in retail, most of us dealers here deal with this daily, if you hadn't noticed they make up the majority of replies.  So if we have questions or comments forgive us.    I could honestly say the dealers here are far from the used car salesman stereo type you have dealt with.

  

[TubsAndCues]

If that's the case Doctors should have a longer life spans than everyone else. But to be fair, I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers.

Seriously, and I mean this not as a jab or smart alec remark, but what dealer did you deal with that pissed you off so bad that you can't let go of it?

As a dealer, you've made so many disparaging remarks I have to wonder what happened in your past.  That, or your work for Clorox.  I've never seen anyone promote one specific brand of bleach ever on here.

And while I do appreciate your tenacity on going out and learning about chemistry, I think many other people on here have made a great point that there is more than one way to treat a spa.  I've said it many times, I'm in the minority on this site in my belief (I'm a bromine user, both in my store and at my home), but that's the way it goes.

It's decieiving NOT to tell someone the whole story, when you know it yourself.

Funny that you had to wait to point out the pH of sodium hypochlorite until someone else brought it up.  Or that you still haven't mentioned that the percentage of chlorine degrades over time.  There's a dirty little secret for you.

The fact is, the Dichlor/Bleach method is cheaper and safer than using only Dichlor. Nobody can, or does dispute this.

Sure, bleach is cheaper.  I won't argue that.  But "safer" I have a problem with.  Any adult that is competent with their chems can handle one just as safe as the other.

The overall problem as I see it here, Nitro, is you come across as hating virtually all dealers, and more importantly you seem adamant that this is the ONLY method that should be used.

There are multiple methods that can be used, and depending on the individual, some are better than others.  I pride myself on the fact that my customers come first, but you have to realize that us dealers are in business, not running a non-profit organization.  When many of us get on here to give advice, we do it because we love to help.  Not to mention, many of us do this on our free time as well.  We aren't here promoting our specific websites or store fronts.

I'm sorry that you think all dealers are slime and are trying to trick the customers.  I live on a very meager salary to do what I love doing, and that is helping people relax and enjoy their hot tub.  

Sure there are deceitful people out there in this industry, but I'm sure there are in yours, what ever that may be.  But try and put yourself in our position and then tell me how you would handle your business.

[Chas]

This post is to inform spa users (and professionals who want to learn something) about the potential risks of using too much Dichlor, and to give them another option.

Well, you certainly have strong opinions.

So - if people toss in bleach when the TA and pH are high, and the spa gets calcified because of the high pH in bleach (just under 13) - and it fries a heating element... I suppose we evil dealers are to blame too, right?

Look Nitro, put out your opinions on this stuff if you want but please stop trying to make it out to be a conspiracy. If your system was better, easier, cheaper, why wouldn't the dealers and manufacturers get on board? Don't you think we want to make the ownership experience as easy as we can?

 8-)

[Nitro]

I just want to say, my only "agenda" is to provide information about the risks of using too much Dichlor, and to provide an alternative. I'm not profiting from this, except the good feeling I get when I read posts from people that succeed at maintaining their tub, when the couldn't before. If that's bad, then I am guilty of it.

I do believe most spa retailers, professionals are good people, but just uninformed when it comes to Dichlor and CYA. I really don't have a problem with them. I have a bigger problem with the industry in general, because they seem to be ignoring these facts. Think about it. If the tobacco industry found out that smoking was bad for you, and didn't tell their customers, would that be bad. But I've been smoking for 20 years, with no problems, yet. I know using Dichlor is not as risky as smoking, but you get the point.

Like I continue to say throughout this thread. I'm not saying using only Dichlor WILL cause problems. But the more you use the less effective it is at sanitizing, hence more risky it becomes. I really don't expect Dealers/Retailers to stop selling Dichlor, or tell people to use bleach. However, if they do know about the effect of CYA, they should at least keep that in mind, when dealing with customers. If they know a customer has high bather load, or having sanitation problems, they shouldn't recommend only Dichlor. They should recommend Bromine, or N2 or MPS or Bleach or whatever.

My point is the FC/CYA ratio should not be ignored. The industry is ignoring it for now. Some dealers/retailers are ignore it also. I won't go into my personal issues with spa dealers, because it's really irrelevant. I just have a problem with anyone who knows this information, and chooses to ignore it. If this information gets out there enough, maybe the industry will take notice.

I am in the business of automating. I have automated MANY business processes over the last 20 years. Hot tub water chemistry is just another process that I'm trying to automate, as a hobby though. And my name isn't really Nitro.

I really don't want to offend the professionals on this board. I'd rather us put ours heads together to come up with better ways to keep our tub clean, and help new users in the process. However, I will defend ANY information I know to be correct. If it turns out that FC/CYA is just a myth, or doesn't really matter, I'll be the first one here posting it. But so far NOBODY has been able to dispute it. Just because you've been using Dichlor for years with no problems, doesn't mean you won't or not at a higher risk. There are many people who do have problems.

[chem geek]

Nitro,

It is not the information, but the style of your posts and one-sided presentation that is clearly offensive to some people.  Also, generalizations about dealers is like prejudice and is uncalled for.  Expressing your own personal experience is one thing, but assuming all or even most are the same is inappropriate.  I believe an apology is in order (as well as forgiveness) to help clear the air and start fresh.

You are far more passionate about the Dichlor-then-bleach method than I am even though I was the one who suggested it.  Initially, the aeration pH rise problems weren't as fully handled, though they were understood, and one person (who didn't monitor pH nor lower TA) had the same problem of scaling Chas referred to and I'm sure there were some others who just read "use bleach" and missed adding Dichlor initially so would have degraded their hot tub covers and other components a lot faster.  These are the kinds of things dealers handle every day, where some hot tub users can only deal with the simplest of instructions and even then sometimes make mistakes.

Any new method or approach takes time to tweak and understand how to make it easy in practice.  Chemical theory is one thing, but it needs to be balanced by what works well and account for real-world factors.  That's why I read about people's experiences and adjust the methods or chemical models to take account of it though I don't change the fundamental chemistry.  This approach of combining chemical theory with real-world observations has led to discoveries such as significantly lowering the TA reducing the pH rise to near-stability as you have found (and is the case in my pool as well, though in that case I have a pool cover so the TA doesn't have to be very low) and to the use of Borates as an alternative pH buffer.

It is true that I am very disappointed in a pool & spa industry that does not even disclose basic facts that are useful, such as how much CYA gets added relative to FC for Dichlor and Trichlor and how much CH gets added for Cal-Hypo and how much salt for all sources of chlorine and extra salt for most hypochlorites, etc.  If you look at pool forums, you will see many, many, many people who get algae in their pools by using Trichlor tabs letting their CYA rise and not maintaining a higher FC or using an algaecide or phosphate remover to inhibit such growth.  Though I didn't get algae, it was increased chlorine demand and cloudy water (a nascent algae bloom) 6 years ago that got me started into looking at pool water chemistry when my local dealers couldn't explain why it happened.  My CYA had gone from 30 ppm to 150 ppm in 1-1/2 years (11 "in-season" months) from continued use of Trichlor, even at a low 0.8 ppm FC per day usage rate.  However, I don't blame the dealers since they only know what they are taught or told, mostly by manufacturers (or courses mostly influenced by the manufacturers).

There is also no one "right" answer or "best" method.  There are pros and cons so what is important is to be frank and honest with full disclosure.  There is no law requiring residential pools or spas to sanitize their water at all -- the laws are only for product labeling where sanitizers used for pools and spas can only be labeled as such if they pass certain stringent tests.  There are many products saying they are EPA-approved, but they are approved only as pesticides, which is the same as saying they are algaecides and do not kill pathogens quickly enough to pass the stringent tests.  It's a spectrum of risk and people can choose wherever they want to be on that spectrum.

TubsAndCues, the reason Nitro refers specifically to 6% Clorox regular unscented bleach is that we have found that it has the least amount of "excess lye" in it (the bleach pH is 11.4) which means that if you have your TA low then you won't get much pH rise from using this product (the pH rises when you add the bleach and then drops as the chlorine gets used/consumed).  The off-brand Ultra bleaches, which are also 6% strength, seem to all have quite a bit more extra lye in them (their pH is 12.5 or higher) so use of these products will increase the pH over time even if there was no aeration/outgassing.

Richard

[Zep]

"I have automated MANY business processes over the last 20 years.
Hot tub water chemistry is just another process that I'm trying to automate"

Hip Hip Hooray if you can help push that agenda forward.
I would think chemical automation of some sort would be a huge boom
for spa dealers and the entire industry. In my opinion water issues that
spa owners face is the single biggest noose around the spa business.

[TubsAndCues]

Hip Hip Hooray if you can help push that agenda forward.
I would think chemical automation of some sort would be a huge boom
for spa dealers and the entire industry. In my opinion water issues that
spa owners face is the single biggest noose around the spa business.

I mentioned this in another thread earlier today, but the problem with it is cost, which is one of the big factors many people will use bleach in their tubs.

It seems like a no win situation.  People don't want to pay for it if it's too expensive, regardless of if they could make it work properly.

[Zep]

I agree Tubs/Cues but breakthroughs usually happen as a surprise to many.

Innovation is often met with "it'll never work".

I bet Apple was told countless times i-Tunes would never change the record industry.

I am hopeful some degree of water chemisty automation will happen.

[Nitro]

I do want to apologize to anyone I have offended, especially Spatech. I may have categorized all spa/pool professionals as being bad, but that was not my intention. However, it's difficult to like someone while being attacked by them at the same time. But I digress.

As I have said MANY times, and I do still believe, MOST spa/pool professionals are good people just trying to make a living helping people care for their water. My problem (like Chem Geek's) is with the industry denying these facts. But it doesn't help that a FEW professionals also deny (or argue against) the facts, when presented in front of them. The way I look at it, the only way the industry will change, is if either the dealers/retailers suggest it, or the people are informed and start to demand it.

I also agree with Chem Geek, that there is more than one way to sanitize your tub, Bromine, Nature 2, SWCG etc. I just happen to believe the Dichlor/Bleach method to be very much superior to the Dichlor Only method. That's why I promote it to Dichlor users. I say give users all the facts, and let them make up their own mind. My ONLY problem (and the reason for this thread) is some facts are being left out.

[Nitro]

TubsAndCues,

You make a good point. The more automation, the more expensive. But usually what happens is, the good options eventually become standard.

As I mentioned, I'd be happy if a chemical company would come out with a Starter Pack containing CYA and Borates. Unfortunately I don't see that happenning any time soon, because there's no market.

[Shaamus]

Nice to see the hot tub covers and other spa components finally get mentioned.  Thanks ChemGeek.  I really hate this system (no offense ChemGeek because I think your reasoning is correct) because most people just don't get it.  They end up thinking you replace all dichlor with bleach which plays havoc with hot tub covers especially because of heavy off-gassing.

The thing I don't understand about this Dichlor/Bleach thing is the functional argument.  Nitro, you say the evil spa chemical industry is tricking people into buying expensive products when plain old bleach and baking soda work just fine.  So it's about the money.  But then you hint that dichlor treated tubs are not as safe because the CYA levels get too high.  So now it's about safety.  But the CYA levels don't start getting too high until the water is 4-5 months old.  If people were to drain and refill every 3 months as recommended by almost every professional and company in this industry you 1) dont have high enough CYA levels to render the dichlor ineffective and 2) keep the TDS levels in check to keep all of your water care products the most effective.  I don't understand the point of harping on dichlor when people just need to drain and refill on a regular schedule.

And if this is an educational issue and your end goal is to keep people in safe water, what's easier to explain to the customer?

A) Once your water gets older than 3-4 months, all the chemicals that keep your water sanitized become drastically less effective for various reasons so you should change your water 3-4 times a year.

OR

B) What you've taken multiples pages to lay out and explain and then subsequently argued with most of the people on this forum over the details.

I'm glad you're an interested spa owner that wants to know about water chemistry.  You're in the minority on that one though.  Most people want simple and this aint simple so it will NEVER go mainstream no matter what the reasoning behind it is.