Dichlor (The Dirty Little Secret)

[chem geek]

Personally I have learned a lot from chem geek on a different forum and he always is "happy" to answer a question - thanks! One of the things I learned from him is that dichlor = bad as is being portrayed in this thread is not entirely accurate. Also, he was the one that I learned from that the hot tub itch bacteria has to be introduced into the water and it just doesn't grow.

I don't remember the details of the conversation, but suspect I said that bacteria have to get introduced into the tub.  That doesn't mean, however, that some bacteria aren't common so will enter the tub whenever you soak.  That is the case for the bacteria that causes hot tub itch since it is fairly common.  It just doesn't cause problems until it finds weakness in skin (irritation, sores, cuts, etc.) and is in numbers large enough to overwhelm the bodies normal first-line defense.  So if the bacteria grows to large numbers in a spa, then that's when it becomes a more serious problem for some people.

I do believe that Chem geek and Vermonter have had a conversation at one point but I don't know if that's true.

Yes we did go back and forth with a few E-mails.  Where that left off was that he was going to send me some more definitive CT values for a variety of pathogens, but that never happened and he stopped responding (could have gotten busy) since Sept., 2007.  If he was doing his tests with N2 (silver and copper ions) in the water (he didn't tell me that), then that most certainly isn't a fair test to compare against Dichlor-only.  He was not fully aware of the chlorine/CYA relationship (didn't know of much peer-reviewed research and asked that I send him some which I did).  Since I received permission to reprint/post the definitive scientific paper on that (here), I sent him that link as well as links to several papers showing the CYA effect on chlorine kill rates in Feb. of this year (2009) but never heard back.  He was fairly confident that the Dichlor method with 3 ppm FC minimum was OK, but he also believed most bacteria were easy-to-kill and we didn't get into discussions about how hot tub itch bacteria fairly quickly form biofilms more resistant to chlorine, etc.

[Chas]

I always feel so warm and fuzzy when somebody comes on and says that a dealer will recommend a chem regimen which makes him the most money. Thank-you Nitro. Actually, Baqua fills that bill, but I no longer recommend it. I have had more problems with that system and I simply do not mention it when people ask what I like the best. I want the tub ownership experience to be as easy as possible, and the Dichlor does it.

I must once again state that I have all the options available and I have found that Dichlor works the best in the thousands of tubs I have contact with.

There seem to be a couple of missing links, as it were, in your thinking which might well be pointed out here. For one, I like ozone systems and N2. In some tubs there is no facility for an extended contact time, so there are little or no benefits to ozone. In those tubs, the use of Dichlor alone may build up CYA. The solution is to change the water every two or three months instead of trying to go four months.

In our tubs - good filtration and ozone standard - the use of Dichlor is minimal. They are tossing in teaspoons at a time, and still getting a reading when they go to use the tub next time. That is not going to bring up CYA in any kind of hurry. In fact, most of our customers soak chlorine free by using MPS after each soak, and backing that up with a Dichlor shock once a month or when they have a crowd in the tub. And I will steal your thunder on this front: MPS builds TDS in the water. Yup. So does bleach, BTW, but regular water changes handle this 'problem' with ease.

I have simplified the system because it works, and works well. I would be glad to sell pool chlorine at low prices for my customers who want it, but so far none have wanted it. Pool chlorine is analogous to laundry bleach but is available for less and can be sold in bulk - ie: bring in your empties to exchange for full bottles. But keeping bottles of bleach around the house turns off most of my customers - even the ones who have tried laundry bleach come back to Dichlor after awhile.

I don't know how you can make the argument that handling liquid bleach is easier than Dichlor - nor can I understand how you can not mention that Sodium Hypo (and Cal Hypo) has a pH of close to 13!! That is the 'dirty little secret' of bleach users  

I am sure you have done your homework on this, and I think that there are going to be some people who have wanted to know more about the ins and outs of all of this, and that is great. Please don't assume that just because most dealers don't put all this out that we are trying to pull something. We all want our tubs to be easy to own - the dealers and the owners of those tubs are on the same side in this debate.

You are not giving away some closely-guarded secrets here. You are not breaking up some huge monopoly nor are you exposing some sort of greed-driven attempt to conceal the truth from the great unwashed masses.

Please keep up the good work of making your info available, as I said, I'm sure many users are curious about it and find it very useful and interesting - but also please don't make it sound like your system is the system, or that your system is going to some how stick it to the man.

 8-)

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Well said Chas!  

[Nitro]

I always feel so warm and fuzzy when somebody comes on and says that a dealer will recommend a chem regimen which makes him the most money. Thank-you Nitro. Actually, Baqua fills that bill, but I no longer recommend it. I have had more problems with that system and I simply do not mention it when people ask what I like the best. I want the tub ownership experience to be as easy as possible, and the Dichlor does it.

I'm not saying all dealers are out to make money at the expense of their customers happiness and safety. I'm sure a lot of dealers are good people who really trying to give their customers the best easiest (as they see it) approach. I'm just suggesting another approach, that is safer, cheaper and not much more difficult. I am saying anyone that denies the benifits of using Bleach is either uninformed, or misleading you.

I must once again state that I have all the options available and I have found that Dichlor works the best in the thousands of tubs I have contact with.

I believe Dichlor has worked for you and many of your customers. However, I'm just saying it would be impossible for you track everybody's progress. Like was mentioned, somebody with a High Bather Load (like myself and others I know), using only Dichlor is just plain risky. I'm not just talking about Hot Tub Itch. Other bacteria could form, if FC is low. Oxidization slows down. Cloudy water etc. All of these things may not make you sick, but are certainly annoying.

There seem to be a couple of missing links, as it were, in your thinking which might well be pointed out here. For one, I like ozone systems and N2. In some tubs there is no facility for an extended contact time, so there are little or no benefits to ozone. In those tubs, the use of Dichlor alone may build up CYA. The solution is to change the water every two or three months instead of trying to go four months.

Another advantage to using Dichlor/Bleach is that you can go about twice as long without changing the water. This makes a difference for people who have really bad well water etc.. Some people even have their water trucked in. Also, there's the long winters. I need the water to last around 4-5 months here in Chicago during the winter.

In our tubs - good filtration and ozone standard - the use of Dichlor is minimal. They are tossing in teaspoons at a time, and still getting a reading when they go to use the tub next time. That is not going to bring up CYA in any kind of hurry. In fact, most of our customers soak chlorine free by using MPS after each soak, and backing that up with a Dichlor shock once a month or when they have a crowd in the tub. And I will steal your thunder on this front: MPS builds TDS in the water. Yup. So does bleach, BTW, but regular water changes handle this 'problem' with ease.

Again, the less Dichlor you use the better. Obviously if you're using MPS (and Nature2), the amount of Dichlor needed would be less. Not all tubs have an ozone system. And ozone systems (which I heard) are not that reliable, only lasting 2-3 years, before needing a replacement. Ozonators may be a nice option, but I wouldn't want to rely on it.

Regarding TDS, regular Clorox Unscented Bleach only adds salt to the tub. However, you can build up a lot of salt in the tub before it becomes a problem. As I said above you can go about twice as long between water changes. As long as you're not adding unnecessary stuff, TDS (other than salt) will stay low.

[Nitro]

I have simplified the system because it works, and works well. I would be glad to sell pool chlorine at low prices for my customers who want it, but so far none have wanted it. Pool chlorine is analogous to laundry bleach but is available for less and can be sold in bulk - ie: bring in your empties to exchange for full bottles. But keeping bottles of bleach around the house turns off most of my customers - even the ones who have tried laundry bleach come back to Dichlor after awhile.

I find it hard to believe that most customers are worried about bleach. There was a time not too long ago when there was gallon of bleach in EVERY household. I'm sure if your customers knew the whole story including the benefits, a lot of them wouldn't have a problem using it.

I don't know how you can make the argument that handling liquid bleach is easier than Dichlor[/b]

Well it may not be easier, but it certainly isn't much more difficult. Again, that's up to the user to decide. I find it just as easy myself. Pour it into a measuring cup, and pour it in the tub. I think you're making a big deal about something that just isn't there.

Nor can I understand how you can not mention that Sodium Hypo (and Cal Hypo) has a pH of close to 13!! That is the 'dirty little secret' of bleach users[/b][/color]  

Glad you brought that up. Actually, Bleach will raise pH initially, but as Chlorine gets used up, it will actually lower pH back down to where it started. Chem Geek can explain this to you.

So using bleach is actually more pH neutral (after it gets used up) than Dichlor. Dichlor is actually acidic, that sometimes requires addition baking soda. The problem with bleach is, because it's pH balanced, the pH will rise from aeration in the tub. This is easily fixed by lowering TA to 50-60 ppm, and the use of Borates. Borates will act as a pH buffer, reducing pH rise. Some people find they don't even need Borates. Also, MPS is acidic. If you use it once week along with Bleach, you can then keep your TA higher.

To put this in perspective. My current water is almost 6 months old. My CYA is 30ppm, TA is 55 ppm and I have 50 ppm Borates. I have only added acid once after the initial dose to lower my TA down from 100 ppm. My pH has been rock solid between 7.6 - 7.8. The only thing I add to my tub on a regular basis is Bleach.

Bottom line: The Dichlor/Bleach method is cheaper, safer and allows you to go longer between water changes than using only Dichlor. How easy it is to handle bleach, is up to the user. I find it easy, and I only have one hand (yes you heard that right). I bet if everyone knew the benefits of using Bleach, it might not seem so difficult to them. The only other two disadvantages are: You need to use Dichlor for the first week to build up CYA before switching to bleach. And you need to lower TA more (50-60 ppm), and use Borates to keep pH Rise in check. These are really a no brainer though.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

 [glow]Anybody that sells their customers "Alk Up" at a higher price than regular Baking Soda is not someone I would trust giving me advice on maintaining my water.[/glow]

I have to see it for more than a box of Baking soda since the chemical companies charge us more. Exspensive plastic bottles........

We really are not marking up 500%.  Plus, if we do not make a little on our chemical sales we need to charge more for the tubs, service, accessories ect. Aftermarket customers are key to keeping prices lower IMO.

Its not a trust thing....Its a buisness. Does the gas station say..."Hey, don't buy diesel from us, go to McDonalds and use they fry grease..."

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Nitro one question I have is who exactly are you pitching all this info at?  The dealers here or the consumers?  Either way your not hitting huge masses of people, just the ones that frequent here from time to time and the dealers that are here.

  If you really want to spew all this info to people that may be looking create a blog or your own spa care website.  Not slamming you or trying to be mean but I am not sure who all this is for?

 And as I have said, I think it is great information for those that want to learn every possible way to keep a spa clean.

[Nitro]

 [glow]Anybody that sells their customers "Alk Up" at a higher price than regular Baking Soda is not someone I would trust giving me advice on maintaining my water.[/glow]

I have to see it for more than a box of Baking soda since the chemical companies charge us more. Exspensive plastic bottles........

We really are not marking up 500%.  Plus, if we do not make a little on our chemical sales we need to charge more for the tubs, service, accessories ect. Aftermarket customers are key to keeping prices lower IMO.

Its not a trust thing....Its a buisness. Does the gas station say..."Hey, don't buy diesel from us, go to McDonalds and use they fry grease..."

Actually, I really don't have a problem with dealers/retailers making money selling Baking Soda (aka Alk Up). My problem is when they lie to by saying their "Alk Up" is somehow different (better) than Baking Soda. Or when they load you up with a bunch of stuff you don't need, without ever knowing your initial water chemistry. Frankly, anyone who has a higher TA should never need Alk Up. I use Baking Soda for other uses, but never in my hot tub. And pH Up is useless for any hot tub with air jets. As far as the plastic bottle, I'd rather you sell an empty bottle, so I can add Baking Soda I buy in bulk.

I'm sure most dealers/retailers are good people. Some are just uninformed, but many are dishonest. I happen to dislike some dealers because of my own experiences. But hey, if I had my choice of helping spa users and offending the "experts", OR helping the "experts" and offending the users, I'll choose the former.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

[[glow] And pH Up is useless for any hot tub with air jets.


 As far as the plastic bottle, I'd rather you sell an empty bottle, so I can add Baking Soda I buy in bulk.[/glow]


Which costs less PH UP or running the electric for the jets to be on, plus adding the air which cools the water and adds more airborn debris into the water, not to count the time it takes.

I can not help what our chemical companies charge us and you missed the point on the diesel......I am not going to say "Hello, how are you....why don't you go to your local grocery to get help with all your spa needs" If they ask if Alk up and baking soda are the same, I will be honest with them, but I am not going to turn away buisness...do you or whatever company you work for?

And you said it....in your tub....you have a high TA, many do not. Around here we see low TA and High PH often. Maybe all that Hillbilly home brew we drink

I understand some of your chemical things, i was talking with Chem Geek before you even did your neighbors tub, may not agree with it all, respect you posting it, as long as the consumer understands what it involves (many customers come into the store that dump just bleach in their tubs because they read it online, or read part of it because the rest seemed mute to them and wonder why their tub is falling apart) BUT I lose my respect when you degrade the dealers, CPO's, APSP, NSPF ect. Doing this as a larger picture, hundreds of thousands of spas and pools give these people a little credibility.

[Nitro]

Nitro one question I have is who exactly are you pitching all this info at?  The dealers here or the consumers?  Either way your not hitting huge masses of people, just the ones that frequent here from time to time and the dealers that are here.

  If you really want to spew all this info to people that may be looking create a blog or your own spa care website.  Not slamming you or trying to be mean but I am not sure who all this is for?

 And as I have said, I think it is great information for those that want to learn every possible way to keep a spa clean.

If you haven't noticed, there are quite a few spa users that come to this site looking for advice. I have been reading this site for a while (even posting in the past), and I have noticed a lot of misinformation floating around.

This post is to inform spa users (and professionals who want to learn something) about the potential risks of using too much Dichlor, and to give them another option.

My other posts are to help spa users keep their tub cleaner, and reduce problems that bring them here to begin with. Despite the difficulty some "experts" on this board are having understanding this information, most beginners have no problems understanding and using it.

[Zep]

Nitro....do bleach tablets exist?.....

I was thinking maybe it would be nice if you could throw bleach tablets in a float?

[Nitro]

Which costs less PH UP or running the electric for the jets to be on, plus adding the air which cools the water and adds more airborn debris into the water, not to count the time it takes.

It only takes mins if you raise your TA with Baking Soda.

I can not help what our chemical companies charge us and you missed the point on the diesel......I am not going to say "Hello, how are you....why don't you go to your local grocery to get help with all your spa needs" If they ask if Alk up and baking soda are the same, I will be honest with them, but I am not going to turn away buisness...do you or whatever company you work for?

I wish all dealers/retails were like you. Unfortunatly they're not. My problem is with them, not you.

And you said it....in your tub....you have a high TA, many do not. Around here we see low TA and High PH often. Maybe all that Hillbilly home brew we drink

If you were listening to Geek Geek in my other thread, you can use TA to only raise TA, and not pH. The pH will only go so high and stay there until TA gets higher. In that case you would raise TA slightly above your target, and then bring TA/pH back down with acid.

I understand some of your chemical things, i was talking with Chem Geek before you even did your neighbors tub, may not agree with it all, respect you posting it, as long as the consumer understands what it involves (many customers come into the store that dump just bleach in their tubs because they read it online, or read part of it because the rest seemed mute to them and wonder why their tub is falling apart) BUT I lose my respect when you degrade the dealers, CPO's, APSP, NSPF ect. Doing this as a larger picture, hundreds of thousands of spas and pools give these people a little credibility.

I degrade dealers who are dishonest and/or rude. Experience is a good thing. However, experience and degrees mean nothing, IF you don't continue to learn. I have a couple degrees myself, and quite a LARGE bit of experience in another field.

I may not have the amount of experience in the spa/pool industry that others may have, but I do have enough knowledge and experience to see the problems with using too much Dichlor. I'm just stating them, and offering another option.

[Nitro]

Nitro....do bleach tablets exist?.....

I was thinking maybe it would be nice if you could throw bleach tablets in a float?

Not that I know of. However there is something that does have some promise. There is a product called The Liqudator that will despense Bleach in pools. A do-it-yourselfer could probably install it in a spa. What would be great is if spa maker would build something like this into their tub. There could be a small door that you open, and add bleach to the container. Or they could even come up with a way to exchange the container with a full one, making it even safer to handle.

There are plenty of ways to despense Chlorine without CYA. Salt Water Chlorine Generators are used in some spas. And there's a portable one called the Spa Pilot. There has been folks discussing it on another forum. I think the main problem was that they still add to add extra Chlorine during high bather loads, but that's better than only using Dichlor.

To be honest, I'd rather this thread turn into a discussion about ideas and solutions, rather than attacks.

[Spatech_tuo]

To be honest, I'd rather this thread turn into a discussion about ideas and solutions, rather than attacks.

Great idea! Then maybe you shouldn't start threads called [glow]"dirty little secrets about dichlor" [/glow] or make ridiculous statements such as the one the other day saying if you use dichlor you need to drain every month or two, or make statements like you made earlier today where you said to someone "I wish all dealers/retails were like you. Unfortunately they're not. [glow]My problem is with them[/glow], not you. " My problem is you're not only a self promoter but you do so by knocking what others are saying at the same time as a way of validating your opinion.

You obviously know your chemistry but your self titled (should have been a clue) bible is not the be-all/end-all you think it is. The funny thing is that I know MANY fellow spa industry people who deal with chems for spa owners and most of us who have a spa at our own homes use dichlor ourselves. If dichlor was only out there to make sales and was the inferior method you seem to say it is why are well all using it. Of yeah, we don't see the light! I guess we just didn't get the Nitro bible soon enough (sarcasm).

If I'm on the road I prefer to eat where the truckers eat and when I sanitize my spa I'll go the way I know many/most spa professionals sanitize theirs. If dichlor was so troublesome I think I'd have seen it in my 10 years of spa expereince (and 10 years is nothing compared to what many others here have).

[Nitro]

Great idea! Then maybe you shouldn't start threads called [glow]"dirty little secrets about dichlor" [/glow] or make ridiculous statements such as the one the other day saying if you use dichlor you need to drain every month or two, or make statements like you made earlier today where you said to someone "I wish all dealers/retails were like you. Unfortunately they're not. [glow]My problem is with them[/glow], not you. " My problem is you're not only a self promoter but you do so by knocking what others are saying at the same time as a way of validating your opinion.

I named this thread to get the attention of people using Dichlor, not to attack anyone. The attacks were coming at me long before I even posted this thread. I think the reason is, the "experts" might be realizing it doesn't take years of experience and many degrees to understand hot tub water chemistry.

You obviously know your chemistry but your self titled (should have been a clue) bible is not the be-all/end-all you think it is. The funny thing is that I know MANY fellow spa industry people who deal with chems for spa owners and most of us who have a spa at our own homes use dichlor ourselves. If dichlor was only out there to make sales and was the inferior method you seem to say it is why are well all using it. Of yeah, we don't see the light! I guess we just didn't get the Nitro bible soon enough (sarcasm).

BTW, I'm not promoting myself, I'm promoting my Dog. Who do you think Nitro is?  

If I were promoting myself, I'd use my real name.

If I'm on the road I prefer to eat where the truckers eat and when I sanitize my spa I'll go the way I know many/most spa professionals sanitize theirs. If dichlor was so troublesome I think I'd have seen it in my 10 years of spa expereince (and 10 years is nothing compared to what many others here have).

If that's the case Doctors should have a longer life spans than everyone else. But to be fair, I trust truck drivers more than most spa dealers.