Brilliance vs. SpaGuard

[LStoner]

Hi. I'm getting ready to start up the hot tub again, but I'm considering changing chemical brands. I live in a small town so I don't have much of a choice. One of the spa stores we have carries Brilliance bromine line, and the other SpaGuard. I definitely don't want to use chlorine because we have a daughter with asthma. The store that carries the SpaGuard also mentioned they have some kind of system that goes right in your filter. I didn't really understand that. For the last two years we've used Brilliance, but it seems like I always have a lot of trouble keeping things balanced. Also, the water seems to be nice and clear for about a week, and then it's cloudy.

Oh, maybe I should add that our hot tub is on the smaller side and it's used almost every day. I don't know specific details because it was here when we moved into this house 2 years ago.

So, I'm hoping some of you could tell me your preference on these choices. If you prefer Brilliance, maybe there's something I'm not doing that I could change. I would appreciate any and all help you can give me. Thanks.

[LStoner]

One more thing to add, if you prefer SpaGuard, which is easier to maintain levels with, bromine tablets or the granulated bromine?

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

If you use a tablet or brominating concentrate it has chlorine mixed with it. Brilliance does not, it is pure bromine and MPS. I personally use this system and have many customers who also do. I have had only 1 customer that did not like it due to cloudy water. Their problem was 1: using spa scents to often, 2: Not doing enough water changes for the amount of use, 3: not shocking the spa enough.

If you read in the book with the brilliance, if you use the spa daily, you need to shock it more often than weekly. Also, how often are you doing water changes? How many gallons/people per day ect. If it is a small spa and you are using it as much as you say, you have to change the water frequently.

Lets start to why you are cloudy, because just changing chemical brands will probabley not help.

Why does chlorine bother her asthma? If you shock the spa with chlorine after use, it will almost all be disipated at the next use if done correctly. If chlorine has a strong smell it may be because the total chlorine has built up, meaning...beleive it or not....you must add more chlorine to shock the tub.

[LStoner]

Thanks for the response. I'm going to try and answer everything you asked. First of all, what book? Never knew there was one. Yes, it's a small hot tub, and we end up having to change it every 1-3 months. It's not often it lasts 3 months though. My dealer did tell me to shock more and we were. But still couldn't get rid of the cloudy water.

We have not actually tried chlorine. Didn't want to take a chance. I heard somewhere that it bothers people with asthma.

So, I just looked at the Brilliance bromo tabs container and I had no idea that there is more chlorine in them than bromine. Wow. So now I'm wondering if a full chlorine system would be okay for my daughter.

Here is a list of all the Brilliance products I used and how...

Bromine tablets in a dispenser (I have a hard time keeping consistent levels)
Calcium hardness increaser (at start-up)
PH up (check once a week)
Total Alkalinity up (check once a week)
oxidizer (as needed, check every couple of days)
Defoamer (seems this is a problem so at least once a week)
Filter cleaner (when we change water)
Metal and scale (once a week)
And I use SpaPerfect natural enzyme (once a week)

We have only tried fragrance samples a few times so I doubt that's a problem. There's been batches of water that have never had them in.

I'm getting the feeling you prefer chlorine systems over bromine. If this is the case, and I decide to go that way, I'll have to find out what the two stores in town carry. I know that the store that carries the Brilliance line does not have the chlorine system. I don't know why.

[Steve]

There are 3 main aspects to preventing cloudy water;

• Proper circulation - How are often is the water filtering and circulating and is it adequate for the usage of your spa
  

• Proper filtration - are your filters clean and doing the job
  

• Watercare - This is where 90% of people fail. Not sustaing a proper sanitizer reading is the most obvious. Very few new spa owners grasp how we effect the water. 1 person in a spa for 15 minutes, uses 1ppm of bromine/chlorine. Now if there 4 people and you started with a 2ppm reading, the result is obvious. Look at it like negative values and not only do you need to bring the levels back up, but you also need to make up that negative value. That's the easiest way I can explain it.
  

So many people add a tsp granular chlorine or bromine after use and can't figure out why their water is cloudy the next day. Understanding the above should help prevent it in future as it's always easier to prevent cloudy water than to try and fix it.

As for your choice of sanitizer... I've always found bromine pucks to be the easiest system. It's easier on your eyes and skin and the puck system eliminates the need to "spoon feed" your spa everyday. I've used it for years as did 85% of our 6000 customers. One key to watercare is having a local dealer (who understands watercare) look after your water and offer free water samples which I would recommend you take in monthly.

Steve

PS - Spaguard is the way to go IMO

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I actually prefer Brilliance chlorine free system, not the tabs. This system has no chlorine in it at all. The store should also have it. Brilliance puts out a book on water care that we give all our new Brilliance customers.

Since you have an issue with foam and cloudy water, I am going to guess swimsuits are used. You need to be as clean as possible when using the tub. Any lotions, perfumes, hairspray, deoderant ect will mess with the water. Swimsuits should only be washed once and awhile, with a low sudsing soap and rinsed an extra time.

As Steve states, how long is the filter cycle set for or is it a 24 hour circulation pump, how clean are the filters AND even if they look clean, look into the pleats where the fold is and see how worn and dirty it is. If worn (looks thinner in the fold) larger particles can pass through.

With heavy use, you may have to add shock daily after each use. When you shock it re-establishes the used bromine in the system so it becomes an effective sanitizer again. Over time, you may have to turn the feeder down because there is enough bromine in the tub that the shock takes care of it.

It is your choice to which system to use, I also think bromine is the easiest. Brand to brand may be a preference, or what people have learned. I like some products from one brand and different ones from another brand. Look at the ingriedients. Make sure the active ingriedient(s) are of the highest quality. You see it a lot in mps (Oxidizer,non-chlorine shock) they will range from 21% active MPS to 48% is the highest I have seen. The less "inhert" ingreidients the better, less junk in the water and less chemical used.

With a small tub and the use you are giving it, I am guessing 6 weeks for water changes, but can not give you exacts without the gallons, how many poeple, how many days and how long of a soak.

[LStoner]

Thanks to both of you. My husband uses the tub most of the time, and it seems like sometimes he's in it forever. He's been known to stay in up to 45 minutes. And we are a nudie patootie family. Well, most of the time anyway. I do think that my husband should be more diligent with showering before use, since he is the one in it most of the time. He goes in first thing in the morning and then again at night. I really don't know the gallons, but it's kind of small. It could seat 4 adults comfortably.

I'll have to remind my girls that they need to shower if they have put on lotion, etc. When they do wear suits, I usually just let them hang in the bathroom and don't wash them unless they take on a bad smell, which is about once a month.

How often should we be purchasing a new filter? Maybe this could be part of the problem. The pleats look clean, but kind of fuzzy.

Once thing we've not tried is using a clarifier. Would this help?

I do take samples in and my Brilliance dealer has been very helpful with trying to figure out what is going on. To be honest, they've been stumped too. Everything reads fine, but the water still looks cloudy. I check the bromine levels all the time and according to the strips, the levels are fine. And when I have the water tested at the dealer, the bromine is usually fine, or a little high.

One thing I forgot to mention is that our hot tub is indoors in a sunroom. Not sure if this makes a difference or not, except for odor issues from chemicals.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

bromine does not oxidize the wastes enough, with this use you may have to oxidize daily to help chew up the organics. I use clarifiers when I need to, but I actually do not care for the Brilliance one much. I like Sea Klear all natural clarifier.

Filter replacement depends on spa use. If it looks fuzzy, it is probabley done. I would get a new one. I personally also replace my filters at least yearly, we have some customers that replace every 6 months because they have 1 low square footage filter and it gets a lot of abuse. Some people on the forum say they have had theirs 5 years. All the customers that I have had that have a filter that is 2-3 years old say a new filter made a huge difference.

Being inside will not effect your water chemistry, but if you have strong oders with Brilliance it is another indicator to me that you are not oxidizing it enough. Brilliance(the kind that is chlorine free) has very little smell unless the hyperclorus (sp?) acid is building up which means shock (oxidize)

Good luck and glad your dealer is working with you, as a note if you begin to oxidize more often you will notice the bromine reading will start being high since bromine is re-established with shock. Just keep turning the feeder down, you may have to turn it off for a day here and there also....saves you $$ on the bromine.

Also if you go to www.brillianceforspas.com click on the link to spa care and on the right at the bottom is the PDF for the spa care guide. The guide I find is very helpful to people.

[LStoner]

Thanks everyone. I started the hot tub back up 3 days ago. I ended up switching to SpaGuard except for the sanitizer. I'm trying Nature2. My dealer told me with Nature2 to use the SpaGuard Enhanced Shock. It's a little strong smelling, but it seems to lessen after awhile. I may order some of the Cense shock that is made to go with the Nature2 to use instead.

We'll see what happens. IMO, that sparkle the water has when you first put it in is already gone even after just 3 days. Maybe, that's just the way it goes. I wish it could always look like that. I was told I can't use clarifier with Nature2.

Oh, and I did replace the filter. My new dealer agree that it was looking bad.

I can tell already that I don't miss that bromine smell. And I know you guys keep talking about some kind of bromine that is chlorine free, but I haven't found it around here where I live. Doesn't matter now anyway.

One more question...Does the TDS go up every time you put more chemicals in? And, is there a way to bring them down, or do you just have to change the water when they get high?

[Steve]

One more question...Does the TDS go up every time you put more chemicals in? And, is there a way to bring them down, or do you just have to change the water when they get high?

TDS will slowly increase with usage and added products. When the water reaches 1500ppm, the water is saturated and you'll find it harder to balance, the need to add more than usual, possibly cloudy water and/or foaming.

Your dealer should be able to test this and tell you exactly where you are and when you may need to drain and refill.

The only way to lower TDS is to drain or partially drain and refill with fresh water that has a lower TDS. It's always good to know what your tap water starts out and then you can have a better idea on the life expectancy of your water based on usage.

Steve

[Steve]

bromine does not oxidize the wastes enough, with this use you may have to oxidize daily to help chew up the organics.

 :-? Are you saying that people on a bromine system should be shocking daily? Certainly not in my experience... Weekly is more than fine unless it is very heavily used.

Steve

[LStoner]

Well, I think I've come to the conclusion that our hot tub SUCKS! It's been three days and the water already looks cloudy and scummy on top. I'm doing everything I was told to do. The readings say the water is balanced. What else could it be? I'm obviously doing something wrong with shocking or our filtration is just the pits. And with this new system, the chlorine smell is so strong and burns our eyes. There's got to be something else.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

 :-? Are you saying that people on a bromine system should be shocking daily? Certainly not in my experience... Weekly is more than fine unless it is very heavily used.

Steve

Their spa does have heavy use, thats why I said daily. if you read back it is used at least 2 times per day by one person, plus the other users.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Thanks everyone. I started the hot tub back up 3 days ago. I ended up switching to SpaGuard except for the sanitizer. I'm trying Nature2. My dealer told me with Nature2 to use the SpaGuard Enhanced Shock. It's a little strong smelling, but it seems to lessen after awhile. I may order some of the Cense shock that is made to go with the Nature2 to use instead.

We'll see what happens. IMO, that sparkle the water has when you first put it in is already gone even after just 3 days. Maybe, that's just the way it goes. I wish it could always look like that. [glow]I was told I can't use clarifier with Nature2.[/glow]
Oh, and I did replace the filter. My new dealer agree that it was looking bad.

I can tell already that I don't miss that bromine smell. And I know you guys keep talking about some kind of bromine that is chlorine free, but I haven't found it around here where I live. Doesn't matter now anyway.

One more question...Does the TDS go up every time you put more chemicals in? And, is there a way to bring them down, or do you just have to change the water when they get high?

You can use clarifier with Nature 2. Sea Klear all natural clarifier is used with it all the time.

Also, in my experiences, Nature 2 does not hold up really well to spas that are used heavy.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Well, I think I've come to the conclusion that our hot tub SUCKS! It's been three days and the water already looks cloudy and scummy on top. I'm doing everything I was told to do. The readings say the water is balanced. What else could it be? I'm obviously doing something wrong with shocking or our filtration is just the pits. And with this new system, the chlorine smell is so strong and burns our eyes. There's got to be something else.

First, strong chlorine smell means the total chlorine is high and free chlorine is low. What does your test say for each of these.

Second, does your tub have a bypass valve in the bottom of the filter? It usually looks like a little black circle that pushes down when the pumps are on high and closes when they are pn low or off. We have seen several cases of these bypasses broken which allows most of the water to bypass the filter. This makes for dirty unfiltered water...just another thought since it got dirty so quickly. Something is not working right here IMO, and it may not be you.