Hot Tub Covers that don't get heavy

[Shaamus]

We should all welcome Chad Livingston from PDC Spas.  Kind of surprised that he used his real last name because most people don't on these forums.

Chad, I am sure that you and Sunstar think you're onto something here but your marketing is very misleading.  First off, your test is of vapor penetration resistance, not actual performance in the field.  Your independent lab tested the vapor permeance of your barrier and 6 mil PE.  Whereas I have no problem believing that you're using saran wrap instead of PE, what you don't tell people and what you have not tested is how that higher density film will react to the heating and cooling and exposure to chemicals.  Spa covers don't get waterlogged because the water vapor permeates through a brand-new PE barrier.  When foam cores are newly sealed, the amount of vapor permeance is not enough for a cover to get waterlogged in a spa's lifetime (10-15 years).  The reason that foam cores get saturated is because over time, that PE vapor barrier is degraded by the chemicals that are off-gassing and hitting the cover.  Over time, that barrier becomes more and more pourous.  The larger exposure from the chemical degradation is what eventually allows enough water vapor in to waterlog the core, not the fact that PE is so pourous to begin with.

The problem that I believe that you will run into is the reason that we have always used linear low-density polyethylene instead of high-density film:  higher density film that has higher vapor permeance resistance tends to shatter around years 3-4 instead of degrading gracefully.  Ever see a spa cover whose vapor barrier is shredded and falling into the spa?  That's high-density film.  Low-density doesn't do it.  So you trade off some vapor permeance for that fact that the film will stay intact and protect longer.

To obtain the vapor permeance resistance that you are, I would guess that you are using a very high density film not unlike a Saran wrap.  Chad, it's going to shatter and you're going to be replacing all those covers under warranty.  I know you think that you've got your bases covered, but I would make sure.  Sunstar has made the mistake of jumping on new technology in the past and it came back to bite them.

I understand that you are excited about your product, but right now you've built your marketing around one independent test that isn't even a field-life test.  You're ramping up people into thinking that if they pay you $200 over market cost, they're going to get a cover that lasts 4x longer.  Come on Chad, you know the vinyl only lasts 7-10 years tops.  Why are you telling people it's the last cover they are going to own?  The next big idea "spa cover" isn't going to have vinyl because that's one of the problems that keep the lifespan under 10 years.

You're going to fool some people into buying it and honestly, I am sure you believe in your product to make the claims you do.  So did the guy from Seattle Spa Covers.  He went bankrupt on warranty claims because his idea didn't work.  I just hope that you actually did 4 years of field testing instead of just kicking around the idea.  And anyway, four years of development is nowhere near the time you need to test in order to use the materials that you are using and make the longevity claims that you are making.

I admit that we haven't bought one yet to test so everything I post here is speculation because the acculok website is very thin on the details.  But I think down the road, we'll be filing this product with the like of the Spa Cap and Seattle Spa Covers.  Companies that just don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.  Mercifully Seattle is out of business.  Unfortunately, Jeff at Spa Cap is still ripping people off.

My two cents.

[Shaamus]

What is regrind foam and why should I be aware of it?

It's not nearly as strong.  The recycled beads (and they really only account for around 15-20% anyway, the rest is virgin) do not ahere well at all causing bad fusion.

Bad fusion = greatly reduced flexual strength = broken foam cores in a spa cover

[Vinny]

From the pic on the top of their pages, it looks like the cover does fold in half.

Maybe a full insulator along the hinge, like ours?

I have a question about the longevity of vinyl that is creased over and over.

If it is a one piece skirt it obviously needs to bend somewhere around the middle if it folds. My cover now has issues with the corners due to them being stiff and I notice that the skirt doesn't sit too well.

Wouldn't that happen to this cover after a while both in the corners and in the middle?

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

As far as I know, Artesian OEM covers are also made in Mexico.  Their manufacturer also sells on the Internet.  However, I do not recall which site.

                                       

[Steve]

Shaamus has made some very valid points but I'm still very curious. I've sent an email asking for a copy of the warranty.

[benalexe]

I need a new cover and will to field test it for you!!!  

[wmccall]

I need a new cover and will to field test it for you!!!  

I thought about you when this thread started. So many people who buy used tubs get really heavy covers with the deal and in my sister in law's case, didn't no better till she lifted mine.

[Chas]

A lot of very good points and very good information all around.

I have a simple question, and I come up with this question whenever somebody begins to advertise a product which claims to be better than what is currently available -

Why wouldn't companies like Sunstar, Ideal Hot Tub Covers, Robert's Hot Tubs, and any/all of the Hot Tub companies who make their own covers (such as Watkins Manufacturing) -some of which have millions of dollars to spend on research and development - already know about this method of building a cover?

It's like the amazing carburetor or water injection systems which claim to be able to double your mileage - If Ford or Toyota could make a simple change to double the mileage of their cars it would make them the leading carmaker on the planet in two days! Why wouldn't they do it, if these items worked?

In the same way, why wouldn't Watkins, or Ideal or whoever, simply make this one minor change to their product and get a cover which lasts longer?

Answer - they have tried and it didn't work. Or at least they have looked at many other plastic materials and rejected them because they would not work under these conditions. Believe me, Watkins has 31 years living with a vinyl cover on top of it's product, and if anyone would know what works they would - along with Sunstar, et al.

So best of luck to this new endeavor, but you might want to give some of the existing companies some credit for trying to make a cover which lasts.

 8-)

[Steve]

This biggest question in all of this is why is Chad Livingston from PDC Spas posting as a female?  :-?   Was he once Chadele?  

[East_TX_Spa]

[Tailhooker]

This biggest question in all of this is why is Chad Livingston from PDC Spas posting as a female?  :-?   Was he once Chadele?  

Ouch!!!

[wmccall]

Why wouldn't companies like Sunstar, Ideal Hot Tub Covers, Robert's Hot Tubs, and any/all of the Hot Tub companies who make their own covers (such as Watkins Manufacturing) -some of which have millions of dollars to spend on research and development - already know about this method of building a cover?  8-)

I work for a Fortune 50 company, wiht more money than all of those, and they wouldn't know a good idea if it walked up and hit them with a ball bat.  I defer to many of you in the hot tub field, but I won't dismiss these guys because they are a small player.

[wmccall]

This biggest question in all of this is why is Chad Livingston from PDC Spas posting as a female?  :-?   Was he once Chadele?  

I noticed that and couldn't find anything in the forum rules about it.  I'm sure he will correct that.

[livingston]

As far as I knew, Seattle Spa Covers were made IN Seattle. They too were "tested" for years..I never know of one that lasted more than about 1-1/2 years.

As far as AccuLok, their site says nothing more than, Our revolutionary technology keeps your hot tub cover lightweigh...nothing about HOW they did this. Seattle Spa Covers made the same claim (and also had a patent) . Four years of testing only says it will last 4 years  . Ours will do that, and more.

"Patent pending" simply means they have what they believe is a new and unique way of doing something, and that they've submitted it for a patent. If it is in fact unique, sometime within the next 6 to 18 months they'll be issued a patent, granting them the exclusive rights to manufacturing it. It doesn't mean in ANY way that it actually works   only that it's unique.

Four years were spent by AccuLok to develop a material that resisted water vapor absorption. Testing by an independent laboratory showed a 400% improved performance of this barrier in comparison to other traditional covers. The warranty is 7 years - not sure how you confused development with life of the cover.

Filing for a patent is an expenisve process and it does mean that it is a unique product worth protecting. The certificate on the site and the warranty do indicate it's performance. An explanation of the technology would be crazy to share - do you think Coca-Cola shares it's recipe?

[livingston]

A lot of very good points and very good information all around.

I have a simple question, and I come up with this question whenever somebody begins to advertise a product which claims to be better than what is currently available -

Why wouldn't companies like Sunstar, Ideal Hot Tub Covers, Robert's Hot Tubs, and any/all of the Hot Tub companies who make their own covers (such as Watkins Manufacturing) -some of which have millions of dollars to spend on research and development - already know about this method of building a cover?

It's like the amazing carburetor or water injection systems which claim to be able to double your mileage - If Ford or Toyota could make a simple change to double the mileage of their cars it would make them the leading carmaker on the planet in two days! Why wouldn't they do it, if these items worked?


In the same way, why wouldn't Watkins, or Ideal or whoever, simply make this one minor change to their product and get a cover which lasts longer?

Answer - they have tried and it didn't work. Or at least they have looked at many other plastic materials and rejected them because they would not work under these conditions. Believe me, Watkins has 31 years living with a vinyl cover on top of it's product, and if anyone would know what works they would - along with Sunstar, et al.

So best of luck to this new endeavor, but you might want to give some of the existing companies some credit for trying to make a cover which lasts.

 8-)

Answer - return customers are a great thing. Why sell one cover when you can sell one every couple of years?