Where does Cal Spas stack up?

[wewannahottub]

(Arctic hasn't changed - we got it right the first time  

well aren't we cocky....  

see Bonibelle/WeWanna here I was defending Arctic Spas and this guy comes in talking trash.

Another "well several years ago....blah blah"

BTW Tommy2Tone can you post a source/url of the study I'd like to look over
it and see if you are "cherry picking" as well as get a feel for whether there
is any bias.

Hey all, I will try to remain neutral, since I am looking at Arctic!!  But, Zep, since you are the only (apparent) Cal owner, I guess you could steer this thread whatever way you want!!  Just glad I could help you think happy thoughts!!

Zep, nice ride, it that Your Escalade in the background??

Speaking of neutral, since I am a HUGE Steelers fan, I won't comment on the Cowboys!!!

[size=20]GO STEELERS!! [/size]

[wewannahottub]

Zep,

  

  Now about those Cowboys  If it wasn't for the cheerleaders I wouldn't pay an ounce of attention to them except for when the Lions are kicking thier butts (strange but they seem to do it often )

 

 Gotta side with the Canadian one here!!!  (even though the Pens lost to Wings, oh well, over it now, better team won!)

[Zep]

"Zep, nice ride, it that Your Escalade in the background??"[/i]

WaWanna....No....thats what Holly wants
I jokingly said the first time I saw Holly "all that girl needs to do
is move to Dallas, behave, and she'll be drivin an Escalade."
I love Escalades, but I love my SUV too!

 
"Speaking of neutral, since I am a HUGE Steelers fan, I won't comment on the Cowboys!!!" [/b]

The Steelers?
Oh NO!!!!!
We still owe ya one.
When we beat the Steelers in the '96 Super Bowl
The first thing I did after the game ended on the cold Jan night
was run out into my front yard point up to heaven
and scream "DAD, DAD...WE FINALLY GOT THOSE STEELERS!"
My Dad & I never fully recovered from those 2 losses to Pittsburgh in the Super Bowls in the 70's.
Even today it makes me ill to watch those two games.
Hopefully we'll even the head to head Super Bowl score soon!
 


(Jackie Smith drops sure touchdown pass in Super Bowl vs. Steelers
Dallas settles for a field goal in a game it loses by four points)

[James]

This thread seems to have wandered off into more interesting imagery...

Since the original question was "Where does Cal Spas stack up?", I offer the following.  In the test conducted by the Alberta Research Council, a Cal Spas Atlantic showed the highest specific power consumption out of the eight spas tested.  In the room temperature (20C) test, it used 50% more power than the next worst spa (A Coast Spas Lanai Silver).  In the cold temperature (-12C) test, it used over twice as much power as the Lanai.

This is neither "brand bashing" nor opinion but objective fact.    In fairness, I draw your attention to another fact, which is that this testing was conducted seven years ago, and it is possible that both Coast and Cal have made significant changes to the way they construct and/or insulate their products to improve their energy efficiency (Arctic hasn't changed - we got it right the first time   ).

Comments?

While I'd never recommend, sell or own a Cal Spa, nor make comment to the actual efficiency of Cal or Arctic, I will point out something that Cal DOES have.

A simple check of the California Energy Commission’s appliance data base shows that Cal Spas already has 45 specific Cal Spa models certified by The State of California as energy efficient and in compliance with the states Title 20 requirements.

The data base includes over 200 approved spa models from many of the major (and some minor) manufactures nationwide.

There are no Arctic spas on this list.

Maybe Arctic WILL need to change.

(As mentioned, I give no opinion to the quality, workmanship, material, energy efficiency of, or speak to the intent of Arctic’s ability or willingness to adhere to the new hot tub energy efficiency laws within the state of California. I simply point out that, as of an hour ago, no Arctic product has been placed on the approved list)

[wewannahottub]

"Zep, nice ride, it that Your Escalade in the background??"[/i]

WaWanna....No....thats what Holly wants
I jokingly said the first time I saw Holly "all that girl needs to do
is move to Dallas, behave, and she'll be drivin an Escalade."
I love Escalades, but I love my SUV too!

 
"Speaking of neutral, since I am a HUGE Steelers fan, I won't comment on the Cowboys!!!" [/b]

The Steelers?
Oh NO!!!!!
We still owe ya one.
When we beat the Steelers in the '96 Super Bowl
The first thing I did after the game ended on the cold Jan night
was run out into my front yard point up to heaven
and scream "DAD, DAD...WE FINALLY GOT THOSE STEELERS!"
My Dad & I never fully recovered from those 2 losses to Pittsburgh in the Super Bowls in the 70's.
Even today it makes me ill to watch those two games.
Hopefully we'll even the head to head Super Bowl score soon!
 


(Jackie Smith drops sure touchdown pass in Super Bowl vs. Steelers
Dallas settles for a field goal in a game it loses by four points)

I guess time will tell.  Hey, maybe my dad can chill with your dad in heaven with a cold Iron City Beer and watch it all!!

[Tailhooker]

Hey all, I will try to remain neutral, since I am looking at Arctic!!  But, Zep, since you are the only (apparent) Cal owner, I guess you could steer this thread whatever way you want!!  Just glad I could help you think happy thoughts!!

Zep, nice ride, it that Your Escalade in the background??

Speaking of neutral, since I am a HUGE Steelers fan, I won't comment on the Cowboys!!!

[size=20]GO STEELERS!! [/size]

Lots of great info coming out here, I'll give Cal Spas a try in the wet test to see how it goes.  Trying Hotspring and D1 tomorrow.
[size=22]GO CHARGERS!!![/size]

[Chas]

Who?



 8-)

[Tailhooker]

Lots of great info coming out here, I'll give Cal Spas a try in the wet test to see how it goes.  Trying Hotspring and D1 tomorrow.
[size=22]GO CHARGERS!!![/size]

[size=20]San Di-egooo... "in German means a Whale's @%$&*!!!" insuring them of a Super bowl title.[/size]

[wewannahottub]

Who?



 8-)

[Tom]

A simple check of the California Energy Commission’s appliance data base shows that Cal Spas already has 45 specific Cal Spa models certified ...

That seems to support my guess that Cal may have improved their products since the ARC test.  If so, good for them!

As for Arctic not being there, there were NO Canadian manufacturers on the list as of June 3, 2008.  That doesn't mean that Arctic or the other Canadian-made spas can't or don't meet the CEC standards.  It seems reasonable that products designed for the Canadian climate should be able to meet standards for balmy California.  But we'll see.

According to our R&D guys, our hypothermic chamber has been CEC approved so we are now a certified CEC test center.  I'm not sure what progress we have made on the testing but next time I'm over at the lab I'll ask.

Since we do export to California, we will need to meet those standards.  Please keep an eye on the CEC list for future developments.

[Tom]

well aren't we cocky....  .

When ya got it....  

Here's the link: http://www.arcticspas.com/index.php/en/custom_content/12/12/ but please, head for Beating a Dead Horse and search for "ARC" or "Arctic study" and review the months of debate.  

[James]

That seems to support my guess that Cal may have improved their products since the ARC test.  If so, good for them!

As for Arctic not being there, there were NO Canadian manufacturers on the list as of June 3, 2008.  That doesn't mean that Arctic or the other Canadian-made spas can't or don't meet the CEC standards.  It seems reasonable that products designed for the Canadian climate should be able to meet standards for balmy California.  But we'll see.

According to our R&D guys, our hypothermic chamber has been CEC approved so we are now a certified CEC test center.  I'm not sure what progress we have made on the testing but next time I'm over at the lab I'll ask.

Since we do export to California, we will need to meet those standards.  Please keep an eye on the CEC list for future developments.

Tom,
 
Thanks for the input.
 
I have no doubt that there are many brands of spas that are not on the CEC list that will, at some point, be added to the list and be given approved status. There are many big players not on the list including Sundance, Jacuzzi, Coleman, etc.
 
Perhaps Arctic will be on that list, maybe not.
 
My point is that a seven year old study, in light of the new CEC standards, may not be current or relative.
 
From a consumers stand point, I think the CEC standards and approval list are current and relative and offer 3 real nice benefits.
 
1) A spa buyer is now assured that his/her spa will be energy efficient and not cost an arm and leg to run.
 
2) The approval list helps make sense of all the shopping "clutter" a potential buyer may hear.  

Since my staff and I have been talking to potential buyers about the CEC and Title 20, we've had our non CEC approved competition offer up sales gems like "Oh yeah, we are approved too, we're really big on energy efficiency" or "Well, we use the same brand of heaters as D1 and the same pumps as Bullfrog, so, in a round about way, we are approved."

No disrespect intended, Tom, but I have to count "We are made in Canada so surely we have to be energy efficient" as that same sales "clutter" we hear. I suspect a reasonable consumer, when informed of the CEC standards would feel the same.

3) I think a quick study of the CEC approved list might give a consumer some peace of mind knowing they are dealing with a brand that was willing to spend the time, money and effort to adhere to these regulations. You mention that Arctic exports to California and will need to meet the CEC standards, yet Cal Spas, who you suggest didn’t score as well as Arctic on some 7 year old study (and there by suggesting that they may not be as energy efficient) has had some spa models approved by the CEC for over 2 years.

As of today, many many manufactures have not been approved, yet, many have been approved for years. If asked, as a consumer knowing nothing of the industry,  which company I'd be more comfortable with, I'd have to pick the company who did the work years ago. Right or wrong, It gives a sense of stability and forward thinking.

Lastly. You'd mentioned before, and mention now, that parts of Arctic’s facility have been CEC certified.

How does that work? Does the California Energy Commission come to your facility and inspect it?

Why would a Canadian Spa factory need to be CEC certified?

When did they certify it?

Why would you have a facility approved by the CEC yet not have your spas CEC approved?



 
 

[James]

A short follow up.

Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:

Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)

As you can see, it is a rather short list.

Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.

Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.

Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.

[Water Boy]

A short follow up.

Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:

Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)

As you can see, it is a rather short list.

Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.

Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. [glow]There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.[/glow][glow]Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.[/glow]




I think maybe you misread the report.

It doesn’t say that spa's are Full Foamed. It reads, “Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated". That doesn’t have to mean FF. I know that Clearwater and Softubs are not FF spas, same as Thermospas. Last I checked Masters Spas were not FF either, or offered an option that was not FF.

In my opinion, this had nothing to do with the debate of FF vs. TP, but after seeing all of those TP spas on this Gospel California report, maybe it will start giving some TP spas credibility.

[James]

A short follow up.

Those manufactures with models on the CEC Title 20 approved list are:

Artesian Spas, Bullfrog International, Cal Spas, Clearwater Spas, Dimension One Spas, Master Spas Inc., Softub Inc., Spa Manufacture, Inc., ThermoSpas, Inc., Watkins Manufacturing Company (every single HSS & Caldera brand spa model are on the list)

As you can see, it is a rather short list.

Tom is correct when he points out that there are no Canadian brands on the list.

Also remarkable is that the list indicates if the tub model is fully foam insulated or not. [glow]There is not a single non-fully foamed spa on the list as well.[/glow][glow]Perhaps this will help with the FF vs TP debate.[/glow]




I think maybe you misread the report.

It doesn’t say that spa's are Full Foamed. It reads, “Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated". That doesn’t have to mean FF. I know that Clearwater and Softubs are not FF spas, same as Thermospas. Last I checked Masters Spas were not FF either, or offered an option that was not FF.

In my opinion, this had nothing to do with the debate of FF vs. TP, but after seeing all of those TP spas on this Gospel California report, maybe it will start giving some TP spas credibility.

 

I'd be hard pressed to believe that "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated” could mean anything but "Spa Enclosure Fully Insulated". Perhaps with the correct amount of spin, fully insulated can mean partially insulated, TP insulated  or non-insulated. I'll E Mail the CEC and see if they can help with the definition.

Perhaps another explanation as to why there are spas on the list that are traditionally know as non-full foam insulated is that the manufactures made, submitted and tested tubs that were in fact full foamed. I have no knowledge of this so it is just a guess.

Just for clarification, this is no "Gospel California Report". Like it or not, it is soon to be the law of the land in California and if the predictions are correct, dozens of other states across the county in the near future.

By the way, I am a Softub Dealer and there is nothing about the tub that is TP. It is as fully foamed as any tub can be.