Ask an Arctic Dealer anything

[Tom]

Goarctic, thanks for starting this thread, it seems to be bringing a lot of good queries.

If I don't answer a question right away, it doesn't mean I'm "glossing over it" or ignoring it.  I try to make time to check the forums once a day but sometimes I have job deadlines that prevent that. Please, I ask your patience and forbearance.

Please forgive any tone.

As I said, that's okay.  I might sound a little harried in the paragraph above.   Actually, I am.  

In point #2 you mentioned that your facility is CEC certified? How does that work? Does the California Energy Commission come to the facility in Canada?   Will you have facility certified by Oregon and NJ when they enact similar standards?

These are good and interesting questions.  When our factory was TUV certified (TUV is the European version of UL, ETL, or CSA), the TUV people had a Canadian associate engineer who drove out to inspect the factory and filled in a bunch of forms.  Based on his report, TUV issued the certificate. Perhaps the CEC certification is similar?   I'll get back to you.  

Will the CEC verify this certification for a consumer?

I'll have to find out.  TUV did this.  The certificate is posted on the TUV site and anyone can view it.   I know you're curious.  Go to http://tuvamerica.com/tools/clientlists/certs.cfm and search for Blue Falls Manufacturing in the category Certificate Holder.  You will find three certificates under our name.  Click to view each in turn.

Lastly, there is a rather extensive list of Hot Tub manufacturers and related industries, with the help of ASAP, that have joined together to work with the CEC in effort to make any transition as easy as it can be for the industry. The contributions from these industry leaders have been financial as well as advisory.  As an industry leader, is Artic involved with this?

Are you referring to the ASPA Growth Initiative?  Arctic has contributed financially (we're top of the right hand column here http://www.apsp.org/210/index.aspx) and our VP Marketing serves on the steering committee.  

On another matter, we have some 250 dealers in 24 countries.  That is small compared to other companies, but does give us a recognizable presence.  And we're still growing.  We have made a splash in Canada (we have been recognized as one of Canada's 50 Best Managed companies) and have won a couple of International Business Awards (one was for Best Designer).  But we really don't make a big deal of these - our awards are not prominently displayed on our web site and are a little hard to find.

Soak-king - When the CEC standards were first released, we checked our test data against the CEC figures and we were well above their requirements.  

It is our opinion that the CEC ambient test temperature is far too warm, and we are urging the Canadian government to adopt a standard with an ambient more representative of the Canadian climate. The mean annual temperature here is 7C (40F) compared to the 15C (60F) used in the CEC standard.  The mean winter temperature is -12C (10F).  We support the lower temperature and test to that standard.

Whew!  Have I answered everybody's questions?  

[Chas]

Good job Tom.

Take the rest of the week off.

 8-)

[Steve]

Dear Steve,

I'm sorry if my line of questioning seems intense. I am, after all, asking questions about Arctic, in a thread titled Ask an Artic Dealer anything. Intensity aside, if my questions are too tough, inappropriate or rude, please let me know.

I thought I did? :-/ Nobody said anything about "tough"... I certainly didn't nor did anyone else I believe.

I'll be happy to answer your  Caldera questions to the best of my ability.

It has no interest to me but thanks for the offer.

As far as Caldera Energy Efficiency Studies I’ll offer this and I am sure many of the other Watkins Dealers in the forum would agree.

I am sure there are volumes of testing data and research information locked snuggly in the vaults of Watkins Mfg in southern Calif. I have no doubt that there is no other spa manufacturer out there that does as much R/D on a product as Watkins.

Why? Because they said so at one of the conferences? It may be really hard for you to believe that other manufacturers make this a priority...

I also know the research is expensive and proprietary. I can not imagine that you, or I, or anyone else would have an easy time getting our hands on the data.

Which makes it a moot point and something not worthy of debating. Posturing included..

I prefer a simpler testing method for Caldera in my area. I ask my Caldera clients how much it costs to run their spa when they visits my store.

IMO, consumers have NO CLUE about the operational costs of spa once it's in their yard. They can compare against the previous years bills and that's about as scientific as it gets. We've all had customers come back into the store and tell us, "my damn tub is costing me close to $100/month to run."   I've been around this forum for YEARS and read 'em all...

Get them to meter their spa. That's when you get accurate data and not guesswork.

I also have faith  in Watkins that when these mandated energy standards go into effect, Caldera will pass with flying colors.

I believe most will but that just my opinion.

I am sorry these questions seem tough. I sell hottubs, but I am also a citizen. It was earth day yesterday and the price of oil hit $119 a barrel.

Again, Caldera and every other major line of spas all operate within a few bucks a month of each other and I'm basing that off of 15 years in this industry. That's my opinion and although certain brands claim superiority on everything from energy effiencty to "the most comfortable spa", no one (including Watkins ) holds the title just yet.

These aren't tough questions but I appreciate your overall concern of the industry.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

 Power consumption is one thing with spa's, but how long with all this green building stuff going on till it hits the small builders, and probably some large ones as well.   I am not talking about the spa itself, but how the spa is built?

 I know Jacuzzi and Sundance spent a few million on a air handling system, I am sure HS has as well.   I remember going to the Artesian's factory n Victorville, Ca the place smelled of resin/epoxy and guys were hand rolling fiberglass on the shell of the spa with no mask/ventilation what so ever.  That probably has changed with their new factory?
 I am sure there are a lot of other smaller places building spa's with little or no regard for the environment and I would imagine the government will catch up to them at some point?

  Thoughts??  Same question to the Canadians

[Merlin]

Again, Caldera and every other major line of spas all operate within a few bucks a month of each other and I'm basing that off of 15 years in this industry. That's my opinion and although certain brands claim superiority on everything from energy effiencty to "the most comfortable spa", no one (including Watkins ) holds the title just yet.

mmmm not 100% true.

We have meter tested spas in our area for about 6 years and at one point we had Sundance, Artesian, Catalina and Hotspring spas on our floor and of the 4 comparable sized and option featured spas (ie circ pump, insulation types etc..) our Hotspring line was $10 - $25 cheaper to operate than any of the others. But then of course this will always vary depending on where you live etc.

every now and then any spa manufacture will have a bad egg here and there which can lead to some pretty harsh brand bashing.

But ultimately its what the customer finds is important to them not all the spa jargin that we tend to ramble off at them

and no one will probably EVER hold ANY of those "official" titles until there is a nation wide standard.

but as of now there are some companies that do more than others to show their customers that they are selling an energy efficient product.

[Spatech_tuo]

Again, Caldera and every other major line of spas all operate within a few bucks a month of each other and I'm basing that off of 15 years in this industry. That's my opinion and although certain brands claim superiority on everything from energy effiencty to "the most comfortable spa", no one (including Watkins ) holds the title just yet.

I'm not so sure I agree with you. I'll bet there is more variation in the operating costs of the top spa makers out there (say the top 10 or so) than you think but that is just my opinion and neither of us has the data to back up our opinions. While the customer's individual spa can be answered simpler with a meter, I'm hoping the CDC movement will be the starting point to a way to get all spa brands in line. I see Tom post about Canada doing something similar and think that is great. I even think it would be fine if they were to start with not so tough standards just to get a baseline; then squeeze those brands who are less than great performers by toughening the standards over time.

[Merlin]

Power consumption is one thing with spa's, but how long with all this green building stuff going on till it hits the small builders, and probably some large ones as well.   I am not talking about the spa itself, but how the spa is built?

 I know Jacuzzi and Sundance spent a few million on a air handling system, I am sure HS has as well.   I remember going to the Artesian's factory n Victorville, Ca the place smelled of resin/epoxy and guys were hand rolling fiberglass on the shell of the spa with no mask/ventilation what so ever.  That probably has changed with their new factory?
 I am sure there are a lot of other smaller places building spa's with little or no regard for the environment and I would imagine the government will catch up to them at some point?

  Thoughts??  Same question to the Canadians

thats a big reason why so many mfgs are leaving california. Olhausen billiards left for many reasons and keeping things clean as possible is one thing where its hard for companies to do without spending big chunks of money.

i hope its better in NV for Artesian now because i remember that smell and it was horrid

[Jacuzzi Jim]

thats a big reason why so many mfgs are leaving california. Olhausen billiards left for many reasons and keeping things clean as possible is one thing where its hard for companies to do without spending big chunks of money.

i hope its better in NV for Artesian now because i remember that smell and it was horrid

  Could have been why they built in Nevada in stead of Ca, that or property cost?

 I remember someone telling me that if a spa manufacturer wants to build a factory in California,they have to double or triple the quality of air handling system than the last guy that built, something along those lines?

 Either way, it must be hell to try and build a factory in Ca and tell them you want to manufacture something!!

[Merlin]

imagine the air handling system manufactures....

" psshh you kidding me? we're not going to build a factory in CA!! even WE cant meet those standards"  

[Vanguard]

  Could have been why they built in Nevada in stead of Ca, that or property cost?

 I remember someone telling me that if a spa manufacturer wants to build a factory in California,they have to double or triple the quality of air handling system than the last guy that built, something along those lines?

 Either way, it must be hell to try and build a factory in Ca and tell them you want to manufacture something!!

Maybe that's part of the reason when Watkins needed to add manufacturing capability they went to Mexico??  It was not just for cheaper labor, but also because the standards in California are not business friendly.  Now, having said that, the Watkins' facility in Mexico is state-of-the-art.  Major air handling systems and even showers for the workers.  Lots of people there don't have running hot water.

And JJ, yes, Watkins does have VOC elimination systems in their factory.  They don't even produce enough VOC to need it, but they have it anyway, just to be enviro-friendly.  Of course, they don't have anything for fiberglass since they don't fiberglass at that facility.

[Steve]

mmmm not 100% true.

We have meter tested spas in our area for about 6 years and at one point we had Sundance, Artesian, Catalina and Hotspring spas on our floor and of the 4 comparable sized and option featured spas (ie circ pump, insulation types etc..) our Hotspring line was $10 - $25 cheaper to operate than any of the others. But then of course this will always vary depending on where you live etc.

every now and then any spa manufacture will have a bad egg here and there which can lead to some pretty harsh brand bashing.

But ultimately its what the customer finds is important to them not all the spa jargin that we tend to ramble off at them

and no one will probably EVER hold ANY of those "official" titles until there is a nation wide standard.

but as of now there are some companies that do more than others to show their customers that they are selling an energy efficient product.

100% not true? $10 -25 per month difference? Or are you talking per year? Come on... I didn't just fall off the turnip truck... I'm talking the main stream spas that we all hear about on here. Similar units, jets pump sizes, etc. With all due respect, I call BS.

Let me take a different angle here. So using the extreme in your numbers and using an average operating cost of the average spa at $40 per month, then you are suggesting that one of those lines that you mentioned was running close to $70 per month to operate? Which one? And we're not even talking an Alberta climate here? Catalina is the weakest quality of those but I dunno if I'm buying that data...

I know this forum gets used to pump up the Watkins machine at any cost but come on... :-?

[James]

James; can I ask why you have this intense curiosity on Arctic specifically? As a Caldera dealer, is this for ammunition to sell against them?  :-? Can I ask what studies are available to US from Caldera to show a comparison in efficiency?

Arctic seems to be one of the few manufacturers that has done outside testing on their spas (info has been available to the general public for years) and has gone through the expense of building a low-temperature test chamber at the plant.

With all due respect to Arctic and yourself, most any major brand has very similar operating costs within a few $ a month of each other. Really a moot point... :-/

And for the record, EVERY manufacturer claims superior energy efficiency... nothing new there...

Steve-o,

You cunfuddle me. In one post you ask "Can I ask what studies are available to US from Caldera to show a comparison in efficiency?" then, once I answer, you tell me it's of no interest to you.

James

[James]

Goarctic, thanks for starting this thread, it seems to be bringing a lot of good queries.

If I don't answer a question right away, it doesn't mean I'm "glossing over it" or ignoring it.  I try to make time to check the forums once a day but sometimes I have job deadlines that prevent that. Please, I ask your patience and forbearance.

As I said, that's okay.  I might sound a little harried in the paragraph above.   Actually, I am.  

These are good and interesting questions.  When our factory was TUV certified (TUV is the European version of UL, ETL, or CSA), the TUV people had a Canadian associate engineer who drove out to inspect the factory and filled in a bunch of forms.  Based on his report, TUV issued the certificate. Perhaps the CEC certification is similar?   I'll get back to you.  

 
I'll have to find out.  TUV did this.  The certificate is posted on the TUV site and anyone can view it.   I know you're curious.  Go to http://tuvamerica.com/tools/clientlists/certs.cfm and search for Blue Falls Manufacturing in the category Certificate Holder.  You will find three certificates under our name.  Click to view each in turn.

Are you referring to the ASPA Growth Initiative?  Arctic has contributed financially (we're top of the right hand column here http://www.apsp.org/210/index.aspx) and our VP Marketing serves on the steering committee.  

On another matter, we have some 250 dealers in 24 countries.  That is small compared to other companies, but does give us a recognizable presence.  And we're still growing.  We have made a splash in Canada (we have been recognized as one of Canada's 50 Best Managed companies) and have won a couple of International Business Awards (one was for Best Designer).  But we really don't make a big deal of these - our awards are not prominently displayed on our web site and are a little hard to find.

Soak-king - When the CEC standards were first released, we checked our test data against the CEC figures and we were well above their requirements.  

It is our opinion that the CEC ambient test temperature is far too warm, and we are urging the Canadian government to adopt a standard with an ambient more representative of the Canadian climate. The mean annual temperature here is 7C (40F) compared to the 15C (60F) used in the CEC standard.  The mean winter temperature is -12C (10F).  We support the lower temperature and test to that standard.

Whew!  Have I answered everybody's questions?  

Great answers, Tom.

I was under no illusion that you'd either dodge or shrink from my direct questions.

Nor am I surprised that Arctic is involved with APSP.

That said I am a little dubious of a CEC certified testing facility in Canada. It just doesn’t sound right. Let me know otherwise and I’ll be happy to eat crow.

Over all, great answers.

James

[Tom]

That said I am a little dubious of a CEC certified testing facility in Canada. It just doesn’t sound right. Let me know otherwise and I’ll be happy to eat crow.

It didn't take long to find this spreadsheet list of CEC approved labs.  
http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/appliance/forms_instructions_cert/approved_test_laboratories/2008_list_of_approved_labs/All%20Approved%20Test%20Laboratories%202008.xls

Several of the approved sites are in Canada and many other parts of the world.  For this, perhaps you might nibble on a tailfeather.  

As for "Portable Electric Spas", Artesian, Bullfrog, Diamante/Sensation, Master, Nordic, Sundance, and Thermospas have approved labs.   We aren't listed, so on the basis of that, you might want to pass me the plate.    

I will investigate further, but may not have time to do this for a couple of days.

[Chas]

That's my opinion and although certain brands claim superiority on everything from energy effiencty to "the most comfortable spa", no one (including Watkins ) holds the title just yet.

I can tell you one title which Watkins holds - "Most lines of spas offered."

I now have the following on my showroom floor -

• HotSpring Portable Spas
• Tiger River Spas
• Caldera Hot Tubs (four lines here as well...)
• Aquatic Melodies Series
• Utopia Series
• Paradise Series
• Highland Series (Same as Hot Spot)[/i]
  
• Limelight Spas
• Hot Spot Spas
• Solana Spas

 8-)