Narrowing it down: Arctic, Phoenix, Hot Springs...

[Josh]

I can answer any questions reguarding Arctic Spas.  This is the only spa I have ever sold in the 8 years of my adventure.  I have a store in Breckenridge, CO and even at 9000 plus feet I still get referal letters on the energy efficeny.  

One customer just gave me a whole year of his energy bill.  9 months they used less energy.  Of the 3 months that he used more one month was a 1% increase another was 8% and the third was 31% (however they were out of town for 2 1/2 weeks the month the year before).  

Michael

That sounds really good. My spa is currently drained and off, so this will be the first month I can actually do a full comparison and figure out how much energy I was using per month on the old one (then I can check out the new one by comparison).

I haven't real all the replies here yet, but I don't think we've ever had an actual Pheonix Spa owner here.  I wonder if anyone has posted the photos of their factory in this thread yet.  They are somewhat infamous by association.  The bible didn't fortell, as far asI know, that the Anti-christ would come to earth in the form of a spa salesman who rebrands Phoenix Spas and then trashes the rest of the industry and anyone who opposes him with all the charm of a rabid dog.

I've noticed that there don't seem to be a lot of owners on this forum. On another forum I went to, there are a few...and they had good things to say about them, but they were shown the same pictures from the factory in 2002 and 2004 and told about a fire in the factory and said they were going to close.  That was 3 years ago, and I see the same stories are still floating around....so it's definitely something I'm going to be thinking about.

[Josh]

There is a glut of information regarding those pictures going back several years on this and other spa-related forums.  When I first saw those pictures posted, it piqued my curiosity and prompted me to explore further into the story.  It turned out to be a gateway to Hell and has taken years off of my life.

I posted them as a not-too-subtle warning to you.  If you choose to see it as an attempt on my part to influence you towards my brand of spa, I could simply care less as there is no profit in it for me.

If you choose not to see that the quality of the product is a result of the quality of the process, then I wish you well.

Terminator

I understand that you're trying to help me make an informed decision and whether or not it comes across properly in my posts, I do appreciate that.  I hope you also understand where I'm coming from.  It's not that I don't believe what you're saying, or think that you're trying to help.....it's simply that I've got to be a little skeptical considering the source.

I've met over a dozen different dealers over the last couple of weeks and almost every single one of them has had something to say that's really negative about their competition.  Whether it's telling me that the competitors break all the time, that they're cheaply made, that they're going to go under, or that they farm out repairs to other people, everyone has a very similar pitch.  There have been a few exceptions, but generally...I've noticed that each dealer spends several minutes during their sales talk telling me why I shouldn't buy their competitors products (instead of simply telling me why theirs is the one to buy).  Then I go to the next store and hear a similar story about the one I just visited.  Suddenly "the best in the industry" becomes the worst, and I'm told I should stay away from it at all costs.  It's frustrating...because I know that can't be true about every brand.

Regarding your interest in steering me away from a competitor, whether or not you personally make a profit from it....obviously, whether or not people buy the brand you sell directly affects your paycheck.  If everyone wakes up tomorrow and buys a D1, then they tell their friends to the same, your company goes under and you either find a new product to sell or find a new job.  Obviously that's an extreme example, but to put it more simply:   You don't go to a Pepsi salesman for information about Coke. If you do, you have to realize anything he tells you is probably a bit suspect.

As a representative of your company, it's totally fine to be proud of your product....and anything you can tell me about it is extremely helpful.  You'll just have to understand when I don't hold your opinion on the competition in as high esteem as I might hold that of an owner (or a dealer of those products).   It’s nothing personal…that’s just smart research.

I didn't realize your post was a warning at first, but after I did...I did some net research of my own and found the site they originated from.  

That site started in 2002, but there are some 2004 pictures as well. This one shows a ton of tubs sitting outside.



We don't have any pictures someone took at the other factories, so I don’t really have anything to compare these shots to. Still, if storing a hot tub outside is a bad idea (is it?) then I suppose I should take it under advisement that they do this at Phoenix (or did as recently as 3 years ago).

I plan to wet test at least 5 of the brands I've shopped (probably more) and ultimately, that's going to be my biggest deciding factor.  Whether it was made in someone's back yard or hand formed in the middle of Bill Gate's house....unless it feels good, it's not the hot tub for me.  

[Spatech_tuo]

We don't have any pictures someone took at the other factories, so I don’t really have anything to compare these shots to. Still, if storing a hot tub outside is a bad idea (is it?) then I suppose I should take it under advisement that they do this at Phoenix (or did as recently as 3 years ago).
  

Those spas are only outside for "bleaching" purposes. That's really no different than leaving frozen chicken out all day on the kitchen counter to thaw while you're at work. It probably wouldn't be a problem.

[Josh]

Those spas are only outside for "bleaching" purposes. That's really no different than leaving frozen chicken out all day on the kitchen counter to thaw while you're at work. It probably wouldn't be a problem.

Hey wait...aren't you supposed to thaw your chicken in the fridge?  

BTW folks....here's the tub I'm replacing.  Can anyone here identify the model?

[Josh]

Completely unrelated question about the forums here....

Why does this board ask for access to my clip board?  This is the first website I've ever been to where it asks if I want to allow it to access my clip board.  The message pops up every time I hit "preview" or "post"...on both Windows XP and Windows Vista in IE7.

[leaky]

Josh,

As I've said before here, I'm a minority, but checking out Beachcomber would be worth your time.  

Not much of a "bells and whistles" company, but incredibly well-made.  I've had mine for a year and a half, and am still very happy with it.


Leaky

[Josh]

I'm sort of into the bells and whistles. At a minimum, I want to get lights and some sort of waterfall, not because I need them, but because they look cool.  After all, that's half the phone of getting something new (I want it to look different than that one I already had).

Comfort, lots of jets that can be adjusted and cost are the other factors I'm also really big on.  

[Renee]

I'm sort of into the bells and whistles. At a minimum, I want to get lights and some sort of waterfall, not because I need them, but because they look cool.  After all, that's half the phone of getting something new (I want it to look different than that one I already had).

Comfort, lots of jets that can be adjusted and cost are the other factors I'm also really big on.  

You need to check out Jacuzzi in your quest for a hot tub.  They have just the right amount of bells & whistles, in my opinion, and a nice lighted waterfall, while keeping a reasonable price (compared to other quality brands).  We have the J-365, and there's nothing I'd change (with the excpetion of another cupholder....they only put 3 in the shell...why not 4?!?)

[Tom]

The best is the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF).  They certify numerous things on the spa and then certify the entire spa.  Their NSF Protocol P181 sets certain standards.  To date, only Hot Spring and Tiger River have received the certification.  Not sure why others haven't.  

We explored this some time ago.  The NSF  P181 is a "compendium" standard composed of existing required industry standards.  Since we already meet those standards, there didn't seem to be much point to the superfluous P181.  Our R&D guy responsible for getting our products certified laughed at it.  "It's just a marketing thing", he said.

So, of course, Marketing wanted one desperately.  ("Why should we let HS be the only ones?")  

In the end we decided to concentrate our efforts on other things, like being recognized as one of Canada's 50 Best Managed Companies.  For which, by the way, we didn't pay a cent to anybody, but had to earn fair and square.

[Brewman]

We don't have any pictures someone took at the other factories, so I don’t really have anything to compare these shots to. Still, if storing a hot tub outside is a bad idea (is it?) then I suppose I should take it under advisement that they do this at Phoenix (or did as recently as 3 years ago).

You can find some factory pictures on some of the corporate websites.  I think I've seen Hot Springs and Sundance photos, and they look nothing like that hillbilly moonshine looking factory posted earlier in this thread.  And yes, it's a bad thing for an unfilled spa to be sitting in hot sunlight for extended periods of time.  Some spa manuals warn against that very practice.  Even if thiey aren't doing this now, they were at one time, and to me is a red flag as to the quality and professionalism of the product and the people who make it.

[East_TX_Spa]

I think I've seen Hot Springs and Sundance photos, and they look nothing like that hillbilly moonshine looking factory posted earlier in this thread.

 

The silo does look like a giant still, don't it!

I knew I'd seen it somewhere before:


Term

[Josh]

You need to check out Jacuzzi in your quest for a hot tub.  They have just the right amount of bells & whistles, in my opinion, and a nice lighted waterfall, while keeping a reasonable price (compared to other quality brands).  We have the J-365, and there's nothing I'd change (with the excpetion of another cupholder....they only put 3 in the shell...why not 4?!?)

I did so, and they are really nice. I'll be soak testing this weekend.

You can find some factory pictures on some of the corporate websites.  I think I've seen Hot Springs and Sundance photos, and they look nothing like that hillbilly moonshine looking factory posted earlier in this thread.  And yes, it's a bad thing for an unfilled spa to be sitting in hot sunlight for extended periods of time.  Some spa manuals warn against that very practice.  Even if thiey aren't doing this now, they were at one time, and to me is a red flag as to the quality and professionalism of the product and the people who make it.

There's a huge difference between the corporate beauty photos (like the ones of the Watkins factory East_Tx_Spa posted earlier in this thread) and some digital snapshots some third party snapped over a fence in 2002.  Am I saying that I'm ignoring the pictures themselves?  Of course not.  However...if a Honda salesman came in here and posted a similar shot of a run down Toyota manufacturing line from 5 years ago and tried to tell me it's a sign I shouldn't buy a car from a company that otherwise makes really nice cars, I'd probably shrug that off too.

I get it though. In several people's opinions the Phoenix is a bad idea. I have noticed that none of these opinions are coming from people who owned one and got rid of it,  or repaired them and think they're a hassle, or even sat in a friend's tub and didn't like it.  They're all from people who like (or sell) another brand.  I just wish that those people would stick to talking to me about the brand they support (instead of trying to stop me from considering a brand they don't support).  See where I'm coming from?  

I realize this is a big purchasing decision, but in the end, I really don't think I'm going to be up a creek no matter what spa I choose.  Even if it ends up being the Phoenix (which I have to be honest, only keeps coming up so much because people keep on bashing it and I thought it was kind of nice).

I'm sorry if seeing pictures of a product made to be stored outside actually sitting outside doesn't scare me....but a hot tub is just a giant plastic bowl no matter who makes it.  I'm ultimately going to buy the one that's the most comfortable one I can find that's closest to the price I want to pay.  Right now, I'm looking around to narrow those choices WAY down....but the ONLY thing that will take something I like off my list is getting into it and realizing I hate it.  That's what the wet testing is for, right?
If the Phoenix ends up feeling 10 times better to me, I don't care if it was made in the middle of that swamp Yoda lives in, I'll buy one. Same goes with Hot Springs, Arctic or any of those other brands on my growing list.

That's my big disclaimer.  So why am I even posting here looking for help?  Simple. I'm  looking for people's opinions on what they like.  If you've actually tried something out and you think I should give it a look....let me know and I'll take a look a it.  I'm listening. Marquis was not a brand that was originally on my radar, but it is now thanks to this thread. Believe it or not, I didn't visit a Jacuzzi dealer and REALLY look until someone here reminded me.  Your assistance is helping me.

 If you're an owner or a dealer and there's some feature about your tub of choice you think I should know about....tell me!  I'm open to listening to people who might be considered "biased" too....so long as they're telling me why theirs is good.

All I want to remind people is that if you're trying to convince me NOT to buy something, I'm listening...but you're probably not going to have much luck. I'm doing my own research and while additions to that research are welcome, I'm the only one making subtractions. No one gets to take something off my list unless it's me.  

[Brewman]

Paraphrased from my spa owners manual:

"....an uncovered hot tub surface and wall fittings directly exposed to sunlight for an exetnded period is subject to permanant damage or discoloration....."


That factory is knowingly using methods that are damaging to their own products.  Connect the dots.  Could one assume that if they are doing this, then it's likely they are doing other things as well that are not so desirable?  I'd pretty much assume so, just to protect myself.

I did look at Phoenix spas when I was shopping.  The dealer was in a low rent mall, and the whole business gave me the creeps.  How cool looking or how many jets a spa has are relatively meaningless.  Having a quality product backed by a dealer who's likely to be there when you need service is way more important.  Phonix just didn't project that image.  And that dealer folded up and blew town within a year of my purchasing my spa.  I tried, out of curiousity, to find a local dealer, and there isn't one anymore.  Which makes it all the more difficult to get warranty service.  Which I suspect is needed quite often on these sub grade tubs.

And I could care less what spa you buy.  Just trying to open your eyes a bit wider.  Makes no difference to me what you do or don't do or what you do or don't cross off your list.  

There is a guy selling rebranded Phoenix spas out out of Colorado you might take a peek at.  Cut out the middlemen, get the "guts" of a Phoenix spa with even better embellishments, like tinfoil and fan insulation, might be right up your alley.  

[Josh]

Paraphrased from my spa owners manual:

"....an uncovered hot tub surface and wall fittings directly exposed to sunlight for an exetnded period is subject to permanant damage or discoloration....."


That factory is knowingly using methods that are damaging to their own products.  Connect the dots.  Could one assume that if they are doing this, then it's likely they are doing other things as well that are not so desirable?  I'd pretty much assume so, just to protect myself.

 

I guess I'm just not as quick to make assumptions as some people are.  Perhaps it's because I'm not a "glass half empty" kind of guy, but I'm not willing to rule something that I like out just because I hear a couple of stories or see some website some guy made 5 years ago.  Even if someone told me the actual hot tub I was about to buy was stored outside for awhile while they were making it...I'm not sure if I'd be too worried about it.  I live in Seattle.  Weather tends to be a little more extreme here than the weather down in Texas.  We get into the mid-90's and hot in the summer followed by freezing winters (many areas with snow).  My last hot tub survived many years of that (my Dad's has made it through over 20 now)....so I don't neccessarily think a few days in the hot sunshine is a dealbreaker.  If that's even still happening.

I did look at Phoenix spas when I was shopping.  The dealer was in a low rent mall, and the whole business gave me the creeps.  How cool looking or how many jets a spa has are relatively meaningless.  Having a quality product backed by a dealer who's likely to be there when you need service is way more important.  Phonix just didn't project that image.  And that dealer folded up and blew town within a year of my purchasing my spa.  I tried, out of curiousity, to find a local dealer, and there isn't one anymore.  Which makes it all the more difficult to get warranty service.  Which I suspect is needed quite often on these sub grade tubs.
 

I'm sorry you had that experience. To contrast that, the Spa dealer that sells them in Seattle has been around forever, has their own dedicated service team and a good BBB rating (like all the other dealers I've been visiting).  So none of those things you had happen to you are a factor for me.  I havent' visited any low rent malls, just the bigger dealerships that came recommended by friends or websites I found.  

And I could care less what spa you buy.  Just trying to open your eyes a bit wider.  Makes no difference to me what you do or don't do or what you do or don't cross off your list.  
 

May I ask what model of spa you eventually settled upon? I ask, because that one is the one I'd like to hear about. You've probably owned it awhile...used it, drained it, bought new filters....and you probably know a lot more about it than some spa you almost bought back when you were shopping around.  Your opinion on that one is much more valuable to someone like me who is looking around than your opinion on a spa you've never owned....wouldn't you agree?

There is a guy selling rebranded Phoenix spas out out of Colorado you might take a peek at.  Cut out the middlemen, get the "guts" of a Phoenix spa with even better embellishments, like tinfoil and fan insulation, might be right up your alley.  
 

I'm planning on staying local with my purchase, that way I can get service directly from the dealer I eventually buy it from.  However....tinfoil?  Fan insulation? Never even heard of that.  Neither one sounds too appealing...but perhaps I'm just not understanding what it does.

[lagator43]

I have had my Arctic Spa Frontier for just over a year now.  We love it .  The spa has been trouble free.  

We have had some smaller issues with the Arctic store in my city over some trouble with the cover and forever floor .  

Mechanically my spa has been outstanding in the harsh climate I live in. Right now it is -20 degree celcius.  If you have any questions just ask.