Ozone.......

[TubsAndCues]

Just like the rest of the clan here, I won't get into UV vs. CD and how much it saves, but I will say this:

As a dealer, I've found the tubs on my floor as well as at my customers' homes tend to stay "clearer" with ozone than with out.

That said, I do believe in the fact that ozone is a great oxidizer as well as a sanitizer, but only in conjunction with another sanitizing system.  Do you still need sanitizer?  Yes.  Do you still need to shock?  Yes.  Can you keep your tub clean and clear with out it?  Of course.  

I just like it because it makes my life easier.  I added one on my own Tiger River I have at home.  (CD ozone, for those who are interested.)

Be wary of people that tell you you can get away with just ozone.  It's a lie.  My analogy for that is using ozone without another sanitizer is like taking a shower without soap.  Sure you're cleaner than when you got in, but you're still not clean.

One thing that I didn't see mentioned on here though is that the ozonator is only working when the tub is circulating.  If you have a tub that only kicks on a few times a day, it may not be as useful.  I'm a Hot Spring/Tiger River dealer, so with our 24 hour circ pumps, we're getting the max output and benefits from the ozonator.

Hope that helps, and I always recommend it and I love mine.  But like I said, it's not neccessary.

[Vinny]

P.S. the activated carbon feature of the del contact chamber is a great way to control odour as well as adding a little filtering capacity.  We use granular activated carbon at work for taste and odour control and it works great

The activated charcoal is for ozone destruction. There seems to be a port for the ozone bubbles to collect on top and then I guess a valve opens up and eliminates the unused ozone and the cycle starts again. You need to replace it yearly as it gets wet and the charcoal becomes useless after a while. I don't believe it doesn't have any water filtering effect.

[Vermonter]

Just a quick clarification (I hope) about UV and how it relates to ozone.  

In general, for water applications, UV units operate at one of two wavelengths - 254 nanometers (nm) or 185 nm.

In the drinking water world, UV at 254 nm is used as a highly effective disinfectant approach. There are a number of types of UV254 units and essentially all are effective against bacteria and viruses, some are also quite effective against the protozoan Cryptosporidium.  

While UV254 is effective at killing / inactivating microbes, it also does not produce ozone; rather it is often used as a method for quantitatively destroying ozone.  So, any hot tub ozone generator that produces ozone is NOT operating at the germicidal wavelength of 254 nm.

Hot tub UV ozone generators use UV at 185 nm.  UV at 185 nm is a totally different beast from UV at 254 nm.  As UV radiation, UV185 has essentially no germicidal action.  However, UV185 PRODUCES ozone and the ozone that is produced is the disinfectant by which microbes can be killed or inactivated.

By the way, the reason that UV254 can't be used effectively to disinfect a hot tub is mainly because it produces no "residual" disinfectant.  So, unless you can have a "plug flow" situation in which ALL water from the tub is passed through UV prior to being put back into the tub, you are simply disinfecting the portion of the water that passes through the unit and then dumping that into untreated water in the tub.  You can't get that "all water" situation with a pump that is recirculating into a tub.

If you had a situation in which you had two tubs and a single pipe fitted with UV254 connecting the two tubs, then you could pump the entire contents of one tub through the unit into the second tub and the water entering / filling that tub would be disinfected - but that isn't a real-world situation.  And, there would still be biofilm issues unless you added some disinfectant to each tub after you had used the tub (again, UV produces no residual).

Best,

Vermonter

[tinybubbles]

Are you "THE" vermonter?  The one with the great system for water maintenance?  I've seen you referenced on another site.  Is there a link you could give me to your system.  I'd love to check it out.  I just bought balboa's new cd cartridge ozonator.  We'll see how it goes.

[Vinny]

Hey Vermonter,

How's everything going? Your becoming famous in other "water circles" as well!


tinybubbles,

His system is over at rhtubs in the forum FAQ section.  It is an easy and effective system that a lot of us use.

[Vermonter]

Are you "THE" vermonter?  

Hi tinybubbles!

Sorry for the slow response.  Guilty as charged!  

Vinny cited the way to get my "method" from the rhtubs site - which actually was put together as a response to a question from a poster about shocking, chlorine, etc. but it sort of took off as a "method".  I was confused with much of the conflicting information that seemed to be circulating about chlorine, MPS, shock, etc. so, as a new tub owner back then, I decided to look into not only the chemistry of chlorine disinfection as it could (should) apply to use in hot tubs - and to come up with a simple, but "safe" approach to the use of chlorine in hot tubs.  I've had nearly 6 years of trouble-free tub operation using it.  

The CYA  (associated with the so-called "chlorine lock") issue is something I'm looking into right now - at this point I think it is not of any concern as long as a proper chlorine regimen is used to maintain microbiological cleanlienss and as long as a tub is initially disinfected properly.  There are both empirical data and considerable research over many years on real-world recreational water that would seem to support that position.  That's not to say that CYA won't have an adverse affect on free chlorine efficacy; simply that the combination of long contact times of chlorine in hot tubs, the relatively slow generation time of bacterial pathogens in hot tub water, etc. make it a non-issue.

Enjoy your tub!

Best,

Vermonter

[Vermonter]

Hey Vermonter,

How's everything going? Your becoming famous in other "water circles" as well!

Hi Vinny!

Busy on a lot of fronts so not much time to be on the boards; plus you and a number of others are doing a great job on providing advice, etc. to those posting questions.

Not sure what other "water circles" are; aside from one other forum in which I've seen my "method" mentioned a few times.

I hope you are well.

Vermonter

[tinybubbles]

Thank you Vinny and Vermonter!

[tinybubbles]

Under FAQ there was a northman(something like that)style and dichlor dosing vermonter style.  Is the dichlor dosing thread the one I am looking for?

[Vermonter]

Yes - the "What is the "Dichlor Dosing - Vermonter Style?" is the one that has my chlorine method.  Northman's information deals with a much broader "total treatment" approach to daily through yearly hot tub maintenance and goes well beyond the single aspect of disinfection and shocking that I addressed.  

In my personal situation I use a much simpler "total treatment" approach than what he has listed and it works for me; but it won't work for everyone.  My personal "simple" approach has been effective for years and involves only the use of dichlor, Nature2 (or equivalent), ozone (I don't believe it is effective as a disinfectant as applied in my hot tubs and most others) and baking soda.  That's all - and given that the ion and ozone are not treatments that require active maintenance, I'm basically down to dichlor and baking soda (for pH).  If I don't use my tub for several weeks, as long as I have effectively treated my tub after the last use, I can open it up and the water will be clear and ready to use (I do add dichlor to about 0.5 - 1.0 ppm and let it circulate for about 10 minutes; just to be sure).  I clean my filters perhaps two times a year (dishwasher approach) and they are the original filters (I have a 2001 HS Grandee).

My belief and experience is that chlorine disinfection and shocking can be a standardized routine that can pretty much be universally applied to all hot tubs; other aspects of water maintenance will depend on use, makeup water, type of tub, type of filtration, etc. and will vary considerably.

Vermonter

[tinybubbles]

Thanks again.  I'm all for simple!  My tub is coming soon and I want to start off right from day 1.

[Vinny]

Hi Vinny!

Busy on a lot of fronts so not much time to be on the boards; plus you and a number of others are doing a great job on providing advice, etc. to those posting questions.

Not sure what other "water circles" are; aside from one other forum in which I've seen my "method" mentioned a few times.

I hope you are well.

Vermonter

Vermonter,

I am fine, Thanks!

The other "water circle" is a pool forum where your method was mentioned. There is a very knowledgable chemical person there that mentioned your method and he seems to understand microbiology as well. He was able to explain the whole CYA / chlorine relationship and why using bleach in the tub is OK. I also learned that the hot tub itch bacteria has to be introduced and it just doesn't grow in a tub.

We did get into a discussion about microbiology and I explained the very little I have gotten from your posts. His discussion was what happens when you use dichlor exclusively and why there needed to be chlorine in the tub when using it to eliminate the fecal to oral contamination ... I knew what he was talking about but I didn't have an answer.

When he brought up "the vermont" method, I kind of chuckled. I guess he got it from some other forum. Other than Doc's and here, it's the only other water care forum I "participate" in - I don't go there much as some of the people seem closed minded on anything other than using bleach.

Is your daughter still persuing acting - hows that going?

Vinny

[In Canada eh]

Vermonter,

   Thanks for the clarification on the "two" different types of UV lamps,  I am only familiar with the 254nm type used in the water treatment industry and didn't know of the 185nm type.

  On another note did you ever get the information you needed on chloramination and its effects in the distribution system you had asked about.

[Vermonter]

Vermonter,

   Thanks for the clarification on the "two" different types of UV lamps,  I am only familiar with the 254nm type used in the water treatment industry and didn't know of the 185nm type.

  On another note did you ever get the information you needed on chloramination and its effects in the distribution system you had asked about.

Hi ICe (appropriate acronym for your neck of the woods)!

Regarding the UV wavelength, most in the DW treatment industry are familiar with the 254 version and it is highly effective in microbial control; the 185 nm UV is less well known, so you have a lot of company in not having been familiar with it.  The UV185 is often used in ultrapure water (UPW) applications; it's effectiveness on TOC reduction is well documented.

Regarding Chloramines...in the US there continues to be a movement toward their use vs. traditional chlorine; principally to reduce formation of Disinfection ByProducts (DBF).  It certainly accomplishes that but there are adverse effects reported - some health / aesthetic effects suchs as skin irritation, eye irritation, etc. others from a microbial control standpoint.  We were involved in a fairly extensive study on a Florida water system that had switched to chloramines and started having positive coliform results in the distribution system.  I think this is a debate that will go on for some time.

Vermonter

[Vermonter]

Vermonter,

I am fine, Thanks!

The other "water circle" is a pool forum where your method was mentioned. There is a very knowledgable chemical person there that mentioned your method and he seems to understand microbiology as well. He was able to explain the whole CYA / chlorine relationship and why using bleach in the tub is OK. I also learned that the hot tub itch bacteria has to be introduced and it just doesn't grow in a tub.

We did get into a discussion about microbiology and I explained the very little I have gotten from your posts. His discussion was what happens when you use dichlor exclusively and why there needed to be chlorine in the tub when using it to eliminate the fecal to oral contamination ... I knew what he was talking about but I didn't have an answer.

When he brought up "the vermont" method, I kind of chuckled. I guess he got it from some other forum. Other than Doc's and here, it's the only other water care forum I "participate" in - I don't go there much as some of the people seem closed minded on anything other than using bleach.

Is your daughter still persuing acting - hows that going?

Vinny

Vinny,

The CYA debate is likely to continue.  

The individual you reference contacted me awhile back and we've had a bit of communication on CYA.  The ball is in my court now to get back to him with some articles, etc. but I haven't had the time to do a thorough review.  At this time, my impression is that most of the concern about CYA is based on the well-known and documentable adverse effects of it on chlorine efficacy; but from what I can see, this effect does not translate into any concern for a hot tub application due principally to the long contact time chlorine has within a hot tub.

I've reviewed a large number of articles that seem to break into two camps - one camp being the "yes there is an effect" but that make no connection to the impact on use in hot tubs; the other camp being some very thorough studies conducted on swimming pools, etc. that, from real-world sampling, etc., show no adverse effect on the microbial safety of a pool at even very high CYA values.

The one piece of information I can't find (which surprises me) is what the generation time of Pseudomonas aeruginosa is in pool or hot tub water (in the absence of any disinfectant).  In my thinking at this point, that is a key to being able to make a definitive statement regarding concerns (or lack) of CYA in hot tubs.  I have sketched out a small study in which I might try to establish the generation time in my own hot tub water, but would have to wait until I drain and refill so I can have water that doesn't have silver ions in it.  The problem with this study is that it would only represent one tub, one point in time, etc.  but I still think it would help answer whether the generation time is minutes, hours or days.

My daughter had very limited success - and although things looked promising, she decided to come back to Vermont for her last two years of high school and focus on studies, etc.  She graduates next year and is now looking at colleges; she plans to become a pediatrician.

Vermonter