How to start new filled tub with dichlor and mps?

[squale]

Okay I just emptied my tub after using bromine, I want to try a Nature 2 cartrige and my dealer gave me Dichlor and MPS (non chlorine, non bromine shock).  I am wondering, I just filled the tub with the hose, what chemicals do I add first?  Do I even NEED mps if I am using Dichlor?

and how do I test for MPS and dichlor?  I just ordered one of those Aquacheck Trucheck digital strip reader things.. I think it says it does Chlorine, PH, and Alk.  But I don't think it does MPS so I'm not sure how to test my water now that I'm making the switch?

also because I'm using the N2 cartrige, how much dichlor and mps will I need for a 385 gallon Sundance spa?  I have a CD Ozonator too btw.

Thanks

[Spiderman]

I fill my tub and then check PH, ALK and calcium hardness and adjust as needed.  Once those are balanced, I add some dichlor and I'm good to go.  I'm not a big fan of MPS as you can use dichlor to shock as well.  I've never had good results shocking with MPS.  You'll have to figure out how much dichlor to add after each soak, which shouldn't take too long.  In addition to the digital tester you've order, I would recommend some test strips to verify the readings on the digital tester.  I only use test strips and don't have any problems with my water.  

[tony]

Okay I just emptied my tub after using bromine, I want to try a Nature 2 cartrige and my dealer gave me Dichlor and MPS (non chlorine, non bromine shock).  I am wondering, I just filled the tub with the hose, what chemicals do I add first?  Do I even NEED mps if I am using Dichlor?

and how do I test for MPS and dichlor?  I just ordered one of those Aquacheck Trucheck digital strip reader things.. I think it says it does Chlorine, PH, and Alk.  But I don't think it does MPS so I'm not sure how to test my water now that I'm making the switch?

also because I'm using the N2 cartrige, how much dichlor and mps will I need for a 385 gallon Sundance spa?  I have a CD Ozonator too btw.

Thanks

First, you have a choice of N2 cartridges to use with your Altamar.  You can purchase the cylinder type and place on your filter or you can purchase a SunPurity cartridge that fits in your brominator in the filter weir door of Sundance Spas.  The SunPurity is made by Nature2 but built to fit Sundance spas and can be purchased at a SD dealer.

To start, add enough dichlor to reach 3-ppm free chlorine.  Put in your N2 cartridge.  After each soak, add enough dichlor to reach 2-3 ppm.  You will have to experiment to see how much dichlor it takes to get there because each spa has a different chlorine demand.  It should be 1-2 tspns.  Run jets for about five minutes after adding chlorine with cover open, then shut down and close cover.  On days you do not use the spa add a little dichlor.  You will be able to skip days, but in the beginning add daily till you get used to your routine, then experiment with skipping days if you are not a daily soaker.

You can choose to shock with dichlor or MPS.  If you shock with MPS, do it weekly according to the directions on your bottle.  MPS is an oxidizer and works really well as a maintenance product.  It will prevent chloramines(sp) from forming.  If you choose to shock with dichlor, do so when your combined chlorine reaches .2-ppm.  Combined chlorine is the difference between total chlorine and free chlorine.  Shocking with chlorine is a violent reaction for bacteria and destroys chloramines.  You need to reach what is called breakpoint chlorination in order to shock with chlorine which is 10 times your combined chlorine level.  Generally if you bring your free chlorine level to 10 ppm, you will have accomplished this.  If you do not reach breakpoint chlorination, you have not shocked and your chloramines will remain.  Whether shocking with MPS or dichlor, add product, run jets for 5-10 minutes and leave cover off for 20 minutes to allow for off gassing.

I prefer shocking with MPS but many prefer chlorine.  A down side of chlorine is having to wait for free chlorine level to drop to use the spa, generally about a day.

For two very detailed chlorine/N2 routines, go to www.rhtubs.com forum, look for FAQ and find Vermonter and Northman's routines.  Both good info.

Check pH and TA weekly.  You don't need to test for MPS.  Use test strips for free chlorine, total chlorine, pH and TA until your strip reader comes.

[squale]

okay I read both those articles you pointed to, very good info... but they both don't recommend using MPS.. they say there are many drawbacks to MPS but don't list them?

My dealer gave me Dichlor and MPS.  I also went with the SunPurity N2 cartridge.  So why would I use MPS versus NOT using MPS and ONLY using DiChlor?  what works better at shocking?

Do you need to change the water more often with MPS regular use verus Dichlor?

also, if I am using the SunPurity N2 cartridge, do I still need to maintain 2-3ppm of Free Chlorine?  I thought I could use LESS Chlorine (maybe like 1 ppm of Free Chlorine) and be fine because of the N2 cartridge?

BTW.. you should check Free Chlorine like 10 minutes after adding it to get your reading right?  If you check like an hour or two after adding it your levels will be much lower correct?

Thanks

[D.P. Roberts]

First, you have a choice of N2 cartridges to use with your Altamar.  You can purchase the cylinder type and place on your filter or you can purchase a SunPurity cartridge that fits in your brominator in the filter weir door of Sundance Spas.  The SunPurity is made by Nature2 but built to fit Sundance spas and can be purchased at a SD dealer.

1.  My dealer had both cartridges, and they were only a few dollars apart. I chose the regular N2 because it was larger - it seemed like it had a lot more media in it than the SunPurity cartridge. I assume more media = more sanitizing.

2. I've read the instructions that came with the N2, and they don't reference a horizontal filter. You mention placing the N2 cartridge "on" the filter - can I just set the N2 on top of the pleated filter? Would it be better to put it inside the filter, or is that a problem?

[tony]

okay I read both those articles you pointed to, very good info... but they both don't recommend using MPS.. they say there are many drawbacks to MPS but don't list them?

My dealer gave me Dichlor and MPS.  I also went with the SunPurity N2 cartridge.  So why would I use MPS versus NOT using MPS and ONLY using DiChlor?  what works better at shocking?

Do you need to change the water more often with MPS regular use verus Dichlor?

also, if I am using the SunPurity N2 cartridge, do I still need to maintain 2-3ppm of Free Chlorine?  I thought I could use LESS Chlorine (maybe like 1 ppm of Free Chlorine) and be fine because of the N2 cartridge?

BTW.. you should check Free Chlorine like 10 minutes after adding it to get your reading right?  If you check like an hour or two after adding it your levels will be much lower correct?

Thanks

MPS is actually a better oxidizer.  It does a better job at destoying organics that spent chlorine leaves behind.  It does not do as well as chlorine at eliminating chloramines which chlorine becomes after it sanitizes.  If you use MPS weekly, you shouldn't get chloramines.

You still need to get to 2-3 ppm free chlorine even if you use N2.  Free chlorine levels will drop relatively quickly and you will be soaking in near zero sanitizer.  You do not have to change the water sooner if you shock with MPS or chlorine.  MPS will add to your TDS, but dichlor will add to CYA which inhibits the sanitizing power of chlorine...so both have their drawbacks...but not enough that either issue is much to be concerned about if you change your water every 3-4 months.  You want your free chlorine levels to stay at 2+ ppm for a couple of hours, then will drop.

[squale]

well on the directions for the N2 it says nothing about using Dichlor after each bath use.  It only says to use MPS after each spa use, but on the bottle of MPS I have, it says just to use it once per week as a shock....

so what should I do?  should i use the N2 but after each time I use the spa should I add DiChlor?  and then just put in MPS once per week?  I'm confused!

[D.P. Roberts]

well on the directions for the N2 it says nothing about using Dichlor after each bath use.  It only says to use MPS after each spa use, but on the bottle of MPS I have, it says just to use it once per week as a shock....

so what should I do?  should i use the N2 but after each time I use the spa should I add DiChlor?  and then just put in MPS once per week?  I'm confused!

My Nature 2 instructions say "Before each use: Test the water with the nature 2 Spa Test Strip (or equivalent). If the MPS level is low, add 1 tablespoon of MPS to spa per 250 gallons." A note at the very end says "Note: As an alternative to MPS, an EPA registered source of dichlor may be substituted: 1 tablespoon dichlor = approximately 3 tablespoons of MPS." This is on pages 6 and 7 of the Nature 2 booklet that came with my N2 cartridge - the SunPurity directions may be different. Either way, you're supposed to check the sanitizer levels each time you use the spa, and make sure there's a residual - either MPS or dichlor - before you soak.

Some people prefer to add the sanitizer AFTER they soak. Technically, adding the sanitizer before you soak is safer, but then you have the hassle of waiting until the sanitizer is dissolved & mixed, then testing to make sure the levels are correct, before you go in. That's kind of a pain, so most people just add it afterwards. That way, it's probably going to be at the proper levels the next night, which you can test with your test strips.

[squale]

okay makes sense, so I will just use Dichlor after each soak, then once a week I will shock with MPS?  I wonder why I shouldn't just return the MPS and buy more Dichlor and just use the Dichlor to shock as well.  So what if i have to wait a day to go in the spa, it will probably be a cheaper solution and less chemicals to worry about buying.  The MPS I have is from SpaGuard and it says it's PH Buffered so it won't cause PH flucuations... will using Dichlor as a shock cause PH Fluctuations?

Thanks

P.S.-> I thought I read somewhere that using N2 you only have to keep like .5 ppm of Dichlor in order for proper sanitation?

[D.P. Roberts]

P.S.-> I thought I read somewhere that using N2 you only have to keep like .5 ppm of Dichlor in order for proper sanitation?

You must have some free chlorine in the spa. Your test strips probably won't register less than 1 ppm. As long as there's free chlorine in the tub, it can kill any bacteria you bring in. With NO free chlorine, you'll share whatever your tubbin' buddies have.  

[tony]

well on the directions for the N2 it says nothing about using Dichlor after each bath use.  It only says to use MPS after each spa use, but on the bottle of MPS I have, it says just to use it once per week as a shock....

so what should I do?  should i use the N2 but after each time I use the spa should I add DiChlor?  and then just put in MPS once per week?  I'm confused!

Don't follow the directions for N2.  They are garbage, IMO and should be tossed.  I have heard they don't even use those directions any more.  Follow Vermonters routine.  It is much safer.  MPS is not a sanitizer, it is an oxidizer.  N2 is much too slow a bacteriacide to be safe and it is not a true sanitizer.  If you follow the Vermonter way, you will have a safe spa and soad in virtually no chemicals.

[tony]

okay makes sense, so I will just use Dichlor after each soak, then once a week I will shock with MPS?  I wonder why I shouldn't just return the MPS and buy more Dichlor and just use the Dichlor to shock as well.  So what if i have to wait a day to go in the spa, it will probably be a cheaper solution and less chemicals to worry about buying.  The MPS I have is from SpaGuard and it says it's PH Buffered so it won't cause PH flucuations... will using Dichlor as a shock cause PH Fluctuations?

Thanks

P.S.-> I thought I read somewhere that using N2 you only have to keep like .5 ppm of Dichlor in order for proper sanitation?

You can return the MPS and use just dichlor.  I prefer MPS.  I have done both.  I also have used the Frog and N2 (both SunPurity and regular) extensively.  I also have used ozone.  I am down to just dichlor and MPS...no more silver...no more ozone and not because I don't want to spend the money.  My spa is as fresh and easy to maintain as ever.  I am also a daily soaker which I feel makes it easier to maintain your spa.

I use non buffered MPS because I use much less product.  MPS has a relatively low pH.  Dichlor has a relatively neutral pH and is quick dissolving which is why it is used in spas.  Bleach has a relatively high pH.

You did read somewhere that you only have to keep .5 ppm dichlor residual with N2.  The problem is you cannot keep a constant residual with chlorine.  That is why you have to spike your water to a good sanitizing level to kill all the nasties and let it drop to zero.

[tony]

My Nature 2 instructions say "Before each use: Test the water with the nature 2 Spa Test Strip (or equivalent). If the MPS level is low, add 1 tablespoon of MPS to spa per 250 gallons." A note at the very end says "Note: As an alternative to MPS, an EPA registered source of dichlor may be substituted: 1 tablespoon dichlor = approximately 3 tablespoons of MPS." This is on pages 6 and 7 of the Nature 2 booklet that came with my N2 cartridge - the SunPurity directions may be different. Either way, you're supposed to check the sanitizer levels each time you use the spa, and make sure there's a residual - either MPS or dichlor - before you soak.

Some people prefer to add the sanitizer AFTER they soak. Technically, adding the sanitizer before you soak is safer, but then you have the hassle of waiting until the sanitizer is dissolved & mixed, then testing to make sure the levels are correct, before you go in. That's kind of a pain, so most people just add it afterwards. That way, it's probably going to be at the proper levels the next night, which you can test with your test strips.

Forget the MPS levels.  MPS is not a sanitizer.  You are relying on the little siver cartridge to do all your sanitizing.  MPS just oxidizes.  The constant oxidation helps the sanitizer do its job, but the silver is just too easily overpowered by bacteria.  Works ok if no one uses the spa.  The fact that MPS oxidizes so well that it helps the sanitizer is the reason I like it with chlorine.

Adding sanitizer after you soak cleans the spa after bodies have introduced all kinds of bacteria.  The chlorine does its job and then reduces to near zero.  When you soak, you are soaking in low chlorine levels yet have had the advantage of the most used sanitizer in the world.

[squale]

so you are saying I should just return the N2 and use ONLY dichlor and MPS?  won't the spa smell like chlorine then?  I thought the whole purpose of the N2 was to use LESS amounts of chlorine thus no real smell, etc.?

[D.P. Roberts]

so you are saying I should just return the N2 and use ONLY dichlor and MPS?  won't the spa smell like chlorine then?  I thought the whole purpose of the N2 was to use LESS amounts of chlorine thus no real smell, etc.?

There are two different types of "chlorine". The good stuff is "free chlorine", which is what sanitizes your spa for you. Free chlorine has no smell (or almost no smell).

After oxidizing bacteria and other organic junk in your spa, free chlorine forms chloramines. Chloramines smell bad, burn your eyes, and do NOTHING to help your spa. When you've gone in a swimming pool and come out all itchy, with burning eyes and a smelly swim suit, it was chloramines and NOT chlorine that did it.

There are two ways to get rid of chloramines. One is to shock your spa. This helps some. Eventually, the chloramine level will get to the point where it smells bad and burns your eyes no matter what. Then it's time to change your water.

I'd just like to point out three things:
1) I'm no chemistry expert (I doubt that really needed pointing out). Read that Vermonter method.
2) What I posted above was the directions from Nature 2. I was just trying to explain their regimen.
3) I used dichlor, and JUST dichlor (no N2 or ozone) for many years. I never had a problem with it, and the water was never smelly. I'm going to try N2 with the new tub, with my old dichlor regimen. I'm assuming it will do nothing, but for $30 I'll try it once. If I find I'm using less dichlor than I used to, I'll buy another N2 cartridge when this one wears out. If it does nothing, I'll go back to the old plan. At worst I'm out $30. At best I'll use less dichlor, and be able to go longer between water changes, which is worth it IMHO.