Void the warranty

[Chas]

I skimmed the LED thread, and wanted to start a new thread dealing with the term "void the warranty" which gets bandied about here.

I think some people are under the impression that if you damage or modify some part of your tub, that the entire warranty ends suddenly and completely. That is not generally the case.

In my experience, Watkins has never voided a spa warranty. Never. Now, I have had many warranty claims denied over water care: mostly on pump seals where the water was very obviously not balanced. In those cases, I usually end up charging a small amount to cover my costs, replace the seal and orings, and give the owner more education on water care - or tell them not to keep the floater in the filter/skimmer etc. And if there is a problem with some other part of the spa, the warranty still covers it.

But what I mainly want to communicate is this: if you add some device such as a color-changing light, an ozone system, etc. to your spa, and THAT ITEM damages something, then you can expect the tub maker to reject your service claim. I think that should be patently obvious to anyone.

If, on the other hand, you add a light, and the spa shell cracks, your warranty will generally still be in effect. Tub makers that I have dealt with - other than Cal Spa I'm sorry to say - have never gone looking for ways to entirely 'void your warranty' becuase of some accessory item.

[jsimo7]

I skimmed the LED thread, and wanted to start a new thread dealing with the term "void the warranty" which gets bandied about here.

I think some people are under the impression that if you damage or modify some part of your tub, that the entire warranty ends suddenly and completely. That is not generally the case.

In my experience, Watkins has never voided a spa warranty. Never. Now, I have had many warranty claims denied over water care: mostly on pump seals where the water was very obviously not balanced. In those cases, I usually end up charging a small amount to cover my costs, replace the seal and orings, and give the owner more education on water care - or tell them not to keep the floater in the filter/skimmer etc. And if there is a problem with some other part of the spa, the warranty still covers it.

But what I mainly want to communicate is this: if you add some device such as a color-changing light, an ozone system, etc. to your spa, and THAT ITEM damages something, then you can expect the tub maker to reject your service claim. I think that should be patently obvious to anyone.

If, on the other hand, you add a light, and the spa shell cracks, your warranty will generally still be in effect. Tub makers that I have dealt with - other than Cal Spa I'm sorry to say - have never gone looking for ways to entirely 'void your warranty' becuase of some accessory item.

Good............. glad to hear that... You make much more sense than some claims, if you change the light you will "void the warranty" I hope most companies will see warranty issues that way

[Steve]

It brings up a good point and somewhat of a "grey area" in my mind.

Warranties not covered due to "watercare"…. Those of us that have been around and done a "few" water samples over the years understand the results of poor watercare on components.

My question is, without a history of watercare analysis showing a clear pattern of low Alk or pH, how is it "proven" by the manufacturers? We know an element can go prematurely because of this but with an element and/or seal, these can also fail prematurely without poor watercare. How do you as dealers, deal with this when no history of watercare is available?

Steve

[Chas]

If it is not real obvoius, the warranty claim will go through.

If I open the cover and the inside of the tub is covered in calcium and the circ pump is not working, I know it was damaged by bad water care.

Our heaters are covered by a no-fault warranty - as are many others now - so THAT part get replaced with no questions asked.

Of course, if the circ pump is noisy and the tub is calcified, I will add a bunch of spa down and have them call me 24 hours.

[Wisoki]

Which is precicly why I said "modifications to the shell will void you structural warranty. I hope I didn't give the impression that it would void the total warranty. Here's a great idea. We as spa dealers know warranties are too long and manufacturers pay too little on them. So, since SOOOOO many people like to compare the spa industry to auto or boat sales, lets get the manufacturers to put a time/usage warranty on the spas. Like a car has miles/years or a boat has hours/years which ever comes first in both cases, right. So....

5 year unconditional on circulation pumps
5 year/5000 hour on all other components, with a count down timer attached to the main operating pump relays on the curcuit board. How dificult would that be? I don't think too dificult at all.  

[Chas]

Which is precicly why I said "modifications to the shell will void you structural warranty. I hope I didn't give the impression that it would void the total warranty.

Just triggered the thought Frank. I know you know that I know what you meant - you know?

I don't think the warranties are too long. HS pays me just enough to put a few dimes in the bank thanks to service calls. And I love having that warranty on the sales floor.

We all knew that a long warranty is a retail item just like including ozone or a lift, right? Which is why 'voiding' the whole thing, or doing anything else which seems unreasonable doesn't take long to crush a tub maker's reputation.

[J._McD]

………… I think some people are under the impression that if you damage or modify some part of your tub, that the entire warranty ends suddenly and completely. That is not generally the case.

In my experience, Watkins has never voided a spa warranty. Never. Now, I have had many warranty claims denied over water care……………

But what I mainly want to communicate is this: if you add some device such as a color-changing light, an ozone system, etc. to your spa, and THAT ITEM damages something, then you can expect the tub maker to reject your service claim. I think that should be patently obvious to anyone.

If, on the other hand, you add a light, and the spa shell cracks, your warranty will generally still be in effect. Tub makers that I have dealt with - other than Cal Spa I'm sorry to say - have never gone looking for ways to entirely 'void your warranty' becuase of some accessory item.

I do agree with Chas, but would add, in my experience, a manufacturer is not going to VOID a warranty as readily as a dealer may void a warranty.  After all, the key issue here is, the factory will never know about what caused the problem unless the dealer tells them.  

As a dealer representing both the customer and the manufacturer, we have voided 2 warranties in 22 years because the abuse was obviously blatant and repeatedly violated our specific direction and warning, the factory upheld our decision and did in fact VOID the warranty.  

I do not believe any factory will ever independently void anybody’s warranty.  AND, as dealers, we have all submitted things under warranty provisions that gave the customer the benefit of the doubt and they have been covered.  That is customer care and it is a dealer service.

[Micah]

The only company that I have ever seen void an entire warranty was Cal Spas.  But I have seen or heard of almost all companies refuse to honor a warranty due to chemical damage, misuse or alterations.  

[J._McD]

How about "commercial" use which in SOME cases it may be considered, maybe even in "rental units"?

[Brewman]

 The way I understand it is that any specific repair would be judged on it's own as far as warranty service goes.  If the incident was caused by whatever excluded clauses were listed in the warranty, the repair woudn't be covered.   The repair could still be done, but at the customers expense.  
But the warranty is still in effect.  
Next repair, same judgement call, and so forth until warranty expires.
If the incident was caused by defects in materials or workmanship (or other covered reasons) warranty would cover the repair.  Same repair, same parts, same labor, just a matter of who pays.
Sundance replaced my circ. pump without even testing my water or asking me about my water care routine.  
And I'm sure water issues are as excluded in my warranty as they are in the other brands.

[drewstar]

I'd llike to bring forward  from the LED discussion my link to the  "Tie-In Sales Provision"  of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act    


I'm not accusing anyone here of  being in violation of it,  and common sense tells us if you were to modify and/or repair your tub and it leads to electrucal or structual failure, only a fool or thief would want it covered under warrenty. However, I've run into a few sales folks in several industries that would use the "You might void  your warrenty" scare tatic to get you to purchase parts and supplies only from them.
 

So,  for everyon'es edification:



"Tie-In Sales" Provisions"  The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act    

Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

   In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

[LtDan]

I'd llike to bring forward  from the LED discussion my link to the  "Tie-In Sales Provision"  of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act    


I'm not accusing anyone here of  being in violation of it,  and common sense tells us if you were to modify and/or repair your tub and it leads to electrucal or structual failure, only a fool or thief would want it covered under warrenty. However, I've run into a few sales folks in several industries that would use the "You might void  your warrenty" scare tatic to get you to purchase parts and supplies only from them.
  

So,  for everyon'es edification:

 

"Tie-In Sales" Provisions"  The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act    

Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
 
    In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
 
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

 

Hey Drewstar, knock it off with the facts, reasoning and logic. Posts like this are more interesting:

"Wait a second, I'm confused now...did you buy it on e-bay, or from your dealer?
Either way I have yet to see a warranty that lets you install "Non-factory" items on a spa without voiding the warranty.  Most warrantys also say in bold print that if anyone other than a factory trained tech does ANY repairs or modifications the warranty is void
This includes buying an ozone or L.E.D. light from a website"

[J._McD]

I'd llike to bring forward  from the LED discussion my link to the  "Tie-In Sales Provision"  of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act    


I'm not accusing anyone here of  being in violation of it,  and common sense tells us if you were to modify and/or repair your tub and it leads to electrucal or structual failure, only a fool or thief would want it covered under warrenty. However, I've run into a few sales folks in several industries that would use the "You might void  your warrenty" scare tatic to get you to purchase parts and supplies only from them.
  

So,  for everyon'es edification:

 

"Tie-In Sales" Provisions"  The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act    

Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
 
    In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
 
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

 

Drewstar, you can buy anything you want, from whomever you want and do what ever you want with it.  I don't recall any threads saying or claiming, one must buy their filters, or chemicals from a single source in order to maintain their warranty.  

However, because most spas today are designed with specific engineering and are controlled by shopisticated electronics, I do know for a fact that you can put the wrong ozone on a spa and blow the board.  Good luck in trying to get that past the dealer.  I do know that factory accessories and replacements are engineered and designed to operate with the manufactured product.

As mentioned in another thread by the engineers they do not recommend "upgrading" the horsepower on your spa like Tim Allen would do, because it can have a negative affect on the system.  I don't believe any of these situations are anywhere close to violating the act you have quoted.

[drewstar]

I think it's important to be aware of the warrenty laws if we are going to have a discussion about voiding it.

I think some comments in the LED thread came close -cough cough-  to it.

So only the dealer can repar my tub and keep it under warrenty? I can only use original factory equipment to repair my spa?