New to this board

[Micah]

 OK, I may be new to this board, But I do have 20 years in the pool and spa industry.  I have spent the last few months just sitting by and watching the advice that is given on this and other boards.  I have a question that is not ment to ruffle any feathers, (but i'm sure it will) so here it goes.  
It seems that the "experts" on this and other boards say the deciding factor in purchasing a spa should be the results of a wet test and how good a service record the store has.  Untill a year ago one of the lines we offered in our store was a brand called "Phoenix".  I t was a "lower" line but since it had a LOT of power many people said that it felt slightly better than some of the higher quality lines we carried.  Using the logic of many on this board "Phoenis" was the best choice.  We completley disagreed and about 1 year ago dropped the line due to quality problems.  
Now my question,
1. just because I like the feel of one spa over another does that make it the best spa?  (I say no)
2. If a local company sells an inferior product but has a great track record of servicing the problems should that a reason to buy a spa from them (again No)
If a customer asks a question, why is it so hard to get an honest answer? If you ask me what I like and dislike about a spa line I'll tell you.  I wont beat around the bush.  If you ask what spa will hit your traps the best, now we are talking about a wet test , but if a customer says they are looking at line A, B and C. and want advice on what will work best in a cold climate. "Wet test and service record" is not an answer.  
I didn't mean to piss anyone off, but I belive this board is here to help people make educated decisions.

[Mendocino101]

What you are saying has a hint of rational to it....but how productive would it be to have everyone here defending what they sell and slamming the others it would turn into a war of words with no genuine benefit to anyone .....I think what you will find here is if someone over states or says something totally false about their product or another's you will be quickly called out on it....welcome to the board

[hottub.pool_boy]

welcome. I'm new too. I'm dealer of spas- yes. For a long time-yes. Just looking to offer some of our knowledge to people so they may not have to learn fron trial and error.

[Steve]

You bring up some interesting points Micah but let's disect them a little further.

First off, I have always stated that I, as a consumer, would rather buy an average product from a great dealer than a Super Dee Dooper 8000 from someone with a questionable track record of serice. Now take that same mentality and apply it to the purchase of a hot tub, and it's considered FAR more important for a number of reasons. Mainly, because the large % of buyers have never owned a spa before and this purchase requires the need for proper guidence and expert advice. Ownership is made much more enjoyable when they are dealing with a company that will offer this and the job of gaining referrals is made easier.

Down time is not an option at -30 or colder and being able to rely on your dealer for prompt service can make the difference of a repair or an emergency.

Spending $8000+ on a luxury item gives the consumer the ability to demand service and so it should be. It's not about saving a buck in this purchase, it's about making an intelligent decision based on research.

As far as wet testing, power of the jets is a very small aspect of what is being determined in the wet test. Comfort, type of massage and ease of the controls plays a much larger factor in most cases. It's all about controlling the wet test and making it clear to your prospect the key aspects to this purchase and what to be looking for during the test.

If you're not explaining that there is far more to it than just power, it's more of a training issue than anything else. Sales staff need to fully understand what to do during this.

Lastly, the fact that EVERY dealer is telling people why THEY are the BEST and this is why you shouldn't consider brand X, Y & Z, lumps you in with the bottom feeders of our industry IMO. To set yourself above the rest and exibit professionalism is all about the approach of your presentation. Consumers are smart and don't fall for this crap and it does nothing but bring the standards of our entire industry down. Sales methods and the posturing within it, need to change. We'll all benefit from this new approach.

We're all the best...it's time to find a better solution to gaining sales.

I'm not pissed, but I'm just trying to be upfront and honest in my response to your questions.

Steve

[hottub.pool_boy]

I hear clapping, a lot of clapping for steve.

Just wish more consumers were "educated consumers." Their numbers are growing. With more of them, it wil be much more difficult for the silver-tongued salesmen selling spas from dirty warehouses with broken window to find a sucker. Unfortuneately, they're still born about every minute.

[Duffman]

I fully agree with Mendocino's previous post and would like to constructively respond to a few of your comments.

Just because I like the feel of one spa over another does that make it the best spa?  (I say no).

I don't think anyone has suggested that the feel of a spa has anything to do with its quality, or vice-versa for that matter.
On this forum I have consistenly observed what appears to be a few generally accepted precepts:

• The majority of major manufacturers' spas, especially those in the 7k and higher price range are widely considered to be good quality
• Most of these spas have similar features and options, although there are a few unique bells and whistles out there.
• While there are certainly differences, the manufacturer warranties for most of these spas are considered comparable

Given this general consensus I ask you to consider what a shopper like me has to work with. I submit that wet testing to determine which of these spas is most comfortable and provides the best massage experience (for me of course) is one of the best tools that I have.

Regarding the brand that you stopped carrying due to quality problems: I personally do not recognize that manufacturer in the group covered by the precepts listed above. If I were to consider a non-mainstream brand such as that one, I would most certainly pay far more attention to quality, construction, customer feedback (or lack therof), warranty details, corporate longevity, complaint records from the Better Business Bureau, etc...

If a local company sells an inferior product but has a great track record of servicing the problems should that a reason to buy a spa from them (again No)

While I believe dealer service is an important factor to consider, I think we are in agreement insofar as I don't believe this consideration is a top priority compared to comfort and massage experience. My personal set of priorities is to first pick the top spas I would consider buying, and then determine which dealer I want to do business with.

A number of members have suggested that a dealer's service record is a key factor for consideration. Most of them appear to be dealers (no surprise). As a shopper I believe an assessment of dealer service quality is very difficult; especially since I have never met a dealer that did not claim to have excellent service. There are only a couple ways that I see to comfortably make this assessment for myself

• Referral from someone I know who has done business with the dealer in question
• I always check a dealer out on the BBB and similar sites to look for complaint records and resolutions.
• Dealer provided references can help if they are willing to answer all of my questions, but since their feedback is obviously going to be positive, I have to take the information with a grain of salt

Unless a dealer clearly has a mediocre to bad record, I doubt my final choice would be significantly affected by any positive/negative service claims.

If a customer says they are looking at line A, B and C. and want advice on what will work best in a cold climate. "Wet test and service record" is not an answer.

I'm surprised you reached this conclusion and think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see anyone suggesting that wet test and service record have anything to do with discussion on insulation and energy efficiency in cold climates. That is a separate and historically a more heated topic of debate among dealers.

Since you are new to this forum and have stated that you are in the spa industry (not that there's anything wrong with that  ) I have a a couple sincere recommendations

• When it comes to features like insulation and energy efficiency, dealers need to be very careful to provide specific experience-based observations without making statements of fact (e.g., this spa is the most energy efficient, is the best for cold weather, has the most powerful jet pumps, etc.)
• If you do make a statement of fact, be prepared to clearly back it up on your original post as you will be called out by other dealers.
• I know some people are more direct then others with their opinons, but it goes without saying that blanket statements like, "that spa sucks" is a no no... Duh     It's certainly a surefire way to get blasted and banned, not necessarily in that order.

From the forum posts I have read and the numerous e-mails I have received from other shoppers, most of us are looking for information in the following categories:

• Personal experiences with quality, comfort, and maintenance support for specific brands
• Advice regarding shopping, negotiating, installation prep, and maintenance

Welcome to the board. As Mendocino mentioned, your points have some logic to them. I just disagreed somewhat with a couple of your conclusions regarding the posts on this site.

[Duffman]

I hear clapping, a lot of clapping for steve.

Just wish more consumers were "educated consumers." Their numbers are growing. With more of them, it wil be much more difficult for the silver-tongued salesmen selling spas from dirty warehouses with broken window to find a sucker. Unfortuneately, they're still born about every minute.

Hear, Hear!
Well written Steve.

If I felt comfortable that a certain dealer was going to provide significantly better service then those for other spas I was considering, that information would likely break a 2 or 3-way tie.

Without a doubt, given good referrals, references, and evidence of top-notch service, I would certainly strive to do business with such a dealer.

That said, I think it worth restating my position to first determine which spas I like best, then the dealer; not the other way around. Of course that is my opinion based on the fact that I never received glowing referrals to a specific dealer. Had that been the case, I would likely have given more weight to my evaluation of that company's spas.

[Spatech_tuo]

Untill a year ago one of the lines we offered in our store was a brand called "Phoenix".  It was a "lower" line but since it had a LOT of power many people said that it felt slightly better than some of the higher quality lines we carried.  Using the logic of many on this board "Phoenis" was the best choice.  

I agree with Steve and Duffman (though I read neither of their posts due to their length).

The reality is, the wet test should be a serious factor between the tubs that are WORTHY of being wet tested. We recommend to people that they wet test spas that have they feel are top quality, energy efficient and with a good track record from the manufacturers and  dealers. We don't recommend you look at 8 spas and wet test them all. I'd say, look at 8 and wet test your top 2,3 or 4 that make the initial cut.

[Tman122]

Its funny you say this about Phoenix. A buddy in MPLS sells them still to this day and a few friends own them and they have been a fine tub. Not top of the line but also not that expensive. A few problems have occured with them, he has said, but once those are taken care of they seem to be holding up. Ya get what ya pay for.

[cappykat]

While I believe dealer service is an important factor to consider, I think we are in agreement insofar as I don't believe this consideration is a top priority compared to comfort and massage experience. My personal set of priorities is to first pick the top spas I would consider buying, and then determine which dealer I want to do business with.

Duffman nails it again!

[salesdvl]

So far from this thread I have determined that:
It is better to be pissed off than pissed on.
and
Apparently Steve has the clap.  

[salesdvl]

OK seriously,  I think there are many good points made here.  Micah, I have always believed that the wet test was to find the best fit overall for the customer not just one particlular feature.  ie can they sit in the lounger without foating, or do those neck jets hurt etc...
In the absence of any history with the product the wet test is a great opportunity for the buyer to determine for themselves how comfortable they will be or wont be in a spa.

[Vinny]

OK seriously,  I think there are many good points made here.  Micah, I have always believed that the wet test was to find the best fit overall for the customer not just one particlular feature.  ie can they sit in the lounger without foating, or do those neck jets hurt etc...

How does a person foat? Does it hurt? Does it smell? Can they get sucked into the filter?

Inquiring minds want to know!!



I think the best case scenario of coming to a message board is to learn what brands NOT to buy and what features are important. And to have people here with life experiences to help each other when problems arise.

From this board and Doc's I learned these things and quite frankly I doubt that any major brand is that far superior over any other. Is a major brand superior over a HD or Walmart or a Phenix or ... , I guess that depends on the dealer.

I have a HS dealer near me that sells Icon spas (can you say Walmart) as his secondary line. Hopefully, he gives better service than Walmart.

EVERY DEALER hawks their spa line as the best - I went to a lot of dealers and none told me that their competitor is better.

I'm thinking that it would be nice just like Santa in that movie "The Miricle on 34th Street"  that the sales person asked you what would you like in a spa and tells you to go the xyz store because their spa is better for me!

[drewstar]

I think you've put the wet test priority a bit higher than what it should be.

It's been discussed here on this forum before, that yes a wet test is crucial in making the final decsion, but is not the only factor.

I think this board stresses the following process:

1) Educate yourself about spas
2) Evaluate your needs and budget.
3) Select only  reputable brands  
4) Shop reputable dealers
5) Wet test.

[salesdvl]

How does a person foat? Does it hurt? Does it smell? Can they get sucked into the filter?

Inquiring minds want to know!!

For your information, FOAT is the universal acronym for "Float Out At Times".  Thanks Vinny, for asking.