wiring tub question again.

[bosco0633]

I was just looking for clarification on something.  I am going to hook up a 60amp breaker to my box inside the house.  from that I am running 6 3 wire to a 50amp GFCI 2 pole box.  From that I will be running the 6 3 wire to the tub.  

My question is this.  I understand that local code here in Hamilton Ontario requires me to have a type A GFCI box located at least 3meters away from the tub.  It does not say if the GFCI is required to be inside of the house or outside of the house.  I would like to mount the GFCI inside the house beside my electrical box.  Is this at all possible or does the GFCI need to be place outside for code.  

Any electrical buffs out there that could shed some light.  My dad is looking into it now, but I was just wondering if anyone out here could shed some light on this.

[Bur]

I think the GFCI box also serves as the emergency disconnect for the spa so it needs to be visible from the spa.  Otherwise you would need a separate disconnect. Also, I presume you are using 3 #6 and a ground wire.  I ran 4 #6 wires but I have heard of others using a ground wire smaller than the main conductors.

[Guttboy]

In Texas the spa dealers have stated that the breaker can be no closer than 5 feet from the spa.  They also stated that there needs to be a "disconnect" in visible sight from the spa so that it can be turned off readily in the event of a problem.  If your breaker/panel is located out of sight then you would need to have that "disconnect" in plain sight.  You do not need the "disconnect" if your GFCI breaker is in sight.  

Im still researching how I will do my power but sounds like you are on the right track....but look into the "disconnect" (not being an electrican I am not sure what this consists of but photos I have seen are like a lever at a panel that will disconnect the power...)

[fletch49]

Yes the disconnect must be readily accessible and visible to the hot tub occupant but installed at least 5' from the tub.  The reason...I think...They want to protect you from somebody powering up the tub while you are working on it.

Congrats on your choice of tub...You're going to be very happy with your choice. Arctic Spa calls for a 50amp GFCI subpanel. I'm not an electrician, but I would not run a 60amp breaker  from the panel to a 50 amp subpanel, because the actual amperage rating of the tub listed on the ETL placard is 40 amps. 60 down to 40 is too much. I would run a 50amp from the main panel to a 50 amp GFCI subpanel.

As well...if you buy a Cutler-Hammer Spa pack GFCI don't forget to remove the bonding screw on the neutral busbar. Cutler-Hammer at the factory grounds the neutral bar??  

As well, I think the ESA will also want to see the spa bonded using 6 gauge copper bond wire. Make sure there no electrical outlets within 5' of this unit, unless the outlets are GFCI protected.

There are some pretty smart cookies in this forum, so keep asking questions and you will get answers. It's a bit of a learning curve when you are installing the tub!

[Brewman]

The NEC says that the spa needs to be GFCI protected.
And that a form of disconnect must be no closer to the water than 5', no farther than 50', and must be in direct line of sight from the tub.  
There are several ways to set this up which satisfy NEC.
Some spas have built in GFI's, some don't.  I put my GFCI in my main panel and use a pull box as a shutoff.
Most that I'm familiar with just put the GFI in a spa panel mounted 5' to 50' from the spa.

Not sure how NEC differs from the code in Ontario.
Brewman

[Brewman]

Bosco0633's plan to use a 60 amp tap breaker is fine, or you can use a 50.  Assuming the wire on that breaker is approved for 60 amps.  Under the NEC, #6 copper can be protected by a 60 amp breaker.  
Ontario code may differ, so please check any wiring you do with your local code enforcement office.  
Spa and pool wiring isn't a good place to learn, it's best left to electrician's or DIY'ers with some advance wiring knowledge.  Not a good training grounds.
Brewman

[fletch49]

Bosco0633's plan to use a 60 amp tap breaker is fine, or you can use a 50.  Assuming the wire on that breaker is approved for 60 amps.  Under the NEC, #6 copper can be protected by a 60 amp breaker.  
 Ontario code may differ, so please check any wiring you do with your local code enforcement office.  
 Spa and pool wiring isn't a good place to learn, it's best left to electrician's or DIY'ers with some advance wiring knowledge.  Not a good training grounds.
Brewman

6/3 is rated for 60amps in Ontario as well. The only reason why I brought that up is because the electrical safety inspector that ok'd my tub had issues with the fact that the tub was running 40 amps and the breaker at the main was 60amps. He even called Blue Falls Manufacturing  (Arctic Spa parent company) and discussed this with them. He did eventually sign off the tub with the 60 amp breaker in place.  I don't know why the inspector had a issue with this, but there is a possibility that Bosco0633 may see the same inspector as we live very close.

Bosco0633 correct me if I'm wrong, but your father is an electrician and is hooking up the tub.

[Brewman]

I guess that's not too suprising.  I got dinged on a minor issue during my rough in electric inspection.  I had to use an elbow with a removable plate at a certain location in my interior spa wire run, to comply with the 360 degree rule.  This elbow did not have volume capacity stamped on it, and there was no physical junction of wires, but he ruled it as a junction box, and required me to make it accessable.  
I, in a very respectful manner, disagreed with him, and he changed his ruling to not consider it a jb.  
So even the inspectors don't know everything.
All in all, my spa wiring project was extremely educational, but I did have several larger home wiring projects under my belt, and felt comfortable enough to do my project myself.  

Brewman

[bosco0633]

hey spaz, I guess you have a 60amp in your panel box as well.  you can not get  a 50amp cutler anywhere, they just dont make them for our code.  That is why you have to go to the 60amp.  

I have spoken to a couple of my buddies at my work who also have their ticket.  They said that I can bypass the 60amp breaker by placing the actual GFCI 50amp 2 pole right into my panel box.  I just have to run 3 #6 wires plus ground with underground wrap for code to the tub.  
One guy mentioned the shut off switch and the other guy said that I didnt need it.  I would feel safer not even having a box outside.  That is just my opinion, that way you physically have to get away from the area to turn the breaker back on.  

I looked on the ESA website yesterday and of course, Ontario wants you to pay for the information before they give it to you.  

Anyway, I have narrowed it down to two ways of hooking up.  I just need to decide what is the best and safest way.  I think the GFCI outside actually will act as a shut off switch.  I could be wrong.

[fletch49]

Bosco - I'll grab the code book from our maintanance department today and see what it says, but if you are going to get it inspected,  I think you need that disconnect subpanel that houses the GFCI.

Personally, I find it convenient to have the disconnect close to the tub. It saves you a bit of time when you are doing things like draining the tub or testing the GFI.

[bosco0633]

spaz, thanks alot.

Did you have to get your tub inspected?

Also why do you have to test the GFCI.  Is that just require you to shut it off and turn it on every once and a while?

I think I have decided that I am going to run the original idea with the 60amp in my box and out to the GFCI which I will use as a shut off switch.  

I really appreciate your help spaz.  How long have you owned your arctic spa for.  Are you happy with the product.

send me your number and I will call you when you have the info from the code.  My email is pctorrie@hotmail.com

[Brewman]

Test your GFI breaker by pusing the test button.  
It should instantly snap off, and interrupt the power to the spa.
Brewman

[bosco0633]

I do not have it hooked up yet.  In fact, I have not even taken the breaker out of the box that it came in yet.  Maybe I will pull it apart today.  Is the button right on the breaker or in the panel box that it came with.

[fletch49]

Bosco - Can you PM me a fax number? I will fax you the information from the code book.

[Brewman]

The test button should be right on the breaker, and it's labled as test.  Similar in concept to any GFI outlets you may have in your home.  They have a test button that snaps off power to the outlet and any downstream outlets.  Good idea to test those occasionally, as well.
Brewman