Winter-water change

[huh?]

Ummmmmmm who told you this?

The Department of Physics, University of California.  I assume they know what they are talking about.  It's called the Mpemba Effect.  See the link below.


Mpemba

[empolgation]

A side note:  Warm water in a pipe will freeze faster than cold water.

The Mpemba is an unexplained phenomenon that has supposedly been witnessed under certain controlled experiments. That certainly does not mean that "Warm water in a pipe will freeze faster than cold water."

[Brewman]

It take it to mean that warm water CAN freeze faster than cooler water, not that it always will, or won't.  
Brewman

[huh?]

And that is what I should have put too.

[empolgation]

Warm water does not freeze quicker than cold water.

Okay it is a matter of semantics but we should be clear...  what is true is that cold water that was previously heated can freeze quicker than cold water that was not previously heated. To me that is quite different.

[huh?]

Empolgation,

May I suggest......

1.  See the post I made for Vinny
2. Pick a side
3. Purchase based on said preference
4. Open said preference
5. Open spa
6. Relax

Why do we seem to get soo pationate about the things that don't matter?  Who cares if warm water will or will not freeze faster.  I was just restating something that I heard.  I didn't mean to pee in anyones cheerios.  There is no right or wrong.  

[empolgation]

huh?

Suggestion taken, thanks...
No need to get flippant, please see suggestion above.

With all the moot discussions I saw no need to toss in another unqualified fact to add fear for a spa newbie to have them start worrying about keeping their tub cold in the winter so it doesn't freeze

Why do we seem to talk soo much about things we don't care about?  Good thing I don't eat cherrios. There is no hot or cold.

[Tman122]

Ok so we are clear on this right? Warm water, cold water, freezing. For here in Northern Minnesota this is a very old wifes tale that has been tryed thousands and thousands of times at every school science department and back yard around. It's easy when you have - 20 F regularily in the winter.

And as I stated. Set a styrofoam cup of hot water outside and a styrofoam cup of cold water outside on a -20 degree day and you will see skim ice faster on the cold water cup but by the time it gets to the cup freezing solid there will be no noticable difference in the freez time. I'll try it again this winter when it gets 20 below again and post the results live, but as stated been there done that. Not true. To say it will happen in your pipes faster is just plain false. Cause you won't notice.

[tonyp]

To really get this thread going - Does water with ozone freeze faster or slower?

[newtotubbing]

Serious question.

Let's say you do have to drain the spa for whatever reason in the dead of winter, say 20 degrees out.  

How much time would you have to refill the spa before anything starts to freeze?  If you can fill the spa with 2 hoses how long would that take for 500 gal spa and will the pipes freeze while you are filling it?  Want to get as much info as I can, my spa is coming next week and winter is just around the corner.

Jonathan

[BobRex]

"Let's say you do have to drain the spa for whatever reason in the dead of winter, say 20 degrees out.  

How much time would you have to refill the spa before anything starts to freeze?  If you can fill the spa with 2 hoses how long would that take for 500 gal spa and will the pipes freeze while you are filling it?  Want to get as much info as I can, my spa is coming next week and winter is just around the corner. "

How much time do you want to take?  As long as the water is running, your hoses won't freeze (unless of course you are pumping 33 degree water through your hoses.  Keep in mind that most domestic (and well) water is about 50 degrees at the tap.  (Water pipes are kept below the freeze line so that the earth tempers the temperature.)  50 degree water running through a hose will not freeze under anything like rational hose length. (The temp drop will take a long time, and aided by water pressure you would probably need hundreds, if not thousands, of feet for it to freeze - sorry I'm too lazy to do the math!


Now, as to the water, once it's in the tub, the water is in motion, and you are constantly adding more thermal mass.  As such, you will not see any freezing during filling.  In fact, it will take a couple of hours before the tub's temp will be low enough to ice over.

[Brewman]

I think what new2tubbining was asking was if the standing water in the spa plumbing would freeze in the time between powering down the spa to drain, and powering it back up after filling.  

Good question.  At 20 above you may be ok.  At 20 below, I wonder.

Brewman

[newtotubbing]

I think Brewman is close to what I am asking.  

I am not worried about the garden hoses, I know that moving liquid cannot freeze easily.  I was wondering about the water in the pumps, heater, ozinator, tub piping.....?  How long do you have until you have to start to worry about those hoses freezing and cracking?

I have the ability to run a hose from a slop sink in my laundy room to fill the spa, so I could fill it with hot water from that source and cold water from my outdoor spigot, so that should help, but I am worried about the systems mentioned above.


Jonathan

[BobRex]

Well, let's see.... The water that's left over in the plumbing will drop in temp fairly quickly.  How long does it take for you to clean the tub?  If you can knock it out in an hour or so, you should be ok.  Look at it this way, it takes about 1/2 hour or so for ice cubes to skin over in a freezer.  It takes longer than that for a full freeze.  And that's with cold air circulating in the cabinet, not a situation you should see in spa plumbing.  So an hour or so should be safe.

[Tman122]

Plenty of time, stick your fill hose in your filter weir, the water will then circulate through your plumbing to enter the tub. It takes many days of 20 below to freeze the 100 foot water fall on the river next to my house! And it's fun sliding down it when it's froze, cept seeing that water under the ice still falling is kinda freaky!

Sucks refilling when it's that cold though. I put shorts on and crawl in the warm water and use it to clean as it drains, then rinse and refill.