Data point for full foamed vs thermopane

[rodger]

Just what everyone wanted to hear, another discussion of the characteristics of full foam vs. thermopane.

I'm just a little concerned, no, much concerned about the susceptibility of a spa's pumps and plumbing freezing up during power outages. As some of you know, I've been shopping/thinking/researching spas and like the thermopane concept. After looking at the Marquis, which many of you have high regard for, the pumps and plumbing look like they would be likely to freeze-up during extended power outages. We have frequent power outages, with the worst one lasting 10 days during Blizzard Hannah in 1997. We weren't flooded, but did have to ride out the 3 day blizzard, 6 days without runnng water and 10 days without power.
http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/9704/07/flood.update/index.html

and

http://www.rwic.und.edu/blizzard97/

I realize that even the best thermopane design won't stay liquid for 10 days, but I would have at least a couple of days to make a plan. I sent an email last night to Marquis tech support and here's the email exchange:

Rodger asks:

Dear Marquis support,

I live in N. MN and power outages are common. If the power goes out when our outside temperatures are -20 or -30 F, how long could I expect the pumps and plumbing adjacent to the pumps to remain unfrozen?

Marquis support responds:

That is a hard question to answer, but on average you should be fine for several hours.

Best regards,
name withheld (my change)
Customer Service

http://www.netcrafting.com/deck_spa/index.htm

[ebirrane]

Maybe I miss someting about the thermopane design.  As far as I know on these designs there are vents in the side of the tub to allow for the heat of the pumps to escape without overheating and damaging the heater and pumps (say, for someone in FLorida who buys a thermopane tub).

If there are vents in the tub, how many minutes do you think the hot air will sit in the "air chamber"?  Next blizzard crack your windows 1cm and see how long the house stays warm.

Apologies if thermopane tubs (or the ones in question) have no ventilation in them to allow for pump/heater heat to escape during normal operation.

The service tech response from Marquis just means you are dealing with an honest manufacturer. Don't discount that in your shopping...

-Ed

[windsurfdog]

Maybe TP is more appropriate for hotter climates for motor cooling and FF is more appropriate in colder climates for insulation/freeze protection.  But I think that this should not be a big factor when one is looking for their tub.  So many other factors are much more important.

[rodger]

Vented and screened side panels are optional for those experiencing high cabinet temps. If the tub is indoors, protected from rodents, you can just remove a panel or two to keep the area cooler.

It is my opinion that:

Fully foamed tubs are better for warmer climates. Reason: Less risk of freezing, electrical waste heat doesn't contribute to higher cavity and water temps.

Thermopane design is better for colder climates. Reason: Greater risk of freezing; water keeps the pumps and adjacent lines warm. I won't argure the efficiencies of having the electrical equipment contribute waste heat to the water. Evidence is not well documented yet (yes, I've seen the independent study that Arctic had done)

[rodger]

I did appreciate the honesty of Marquis when they said freeze-up is a risk. I will not exclude them from consideration on this issue alone. I will be visiting the Marquis dealer in Brainerd tomorrow. I need a reason for a motorcyle ride anyway. I'll swing through Fargo and look at the Beachcomber as well.

Thanks for the comments!

Rodger

[stuart]

Wow! I think I picked the wrong day to peek back in (can't resist being drawn into this old debate)! Don't have much time so I thought I would just paste an old post here.

Just thought I would share something. I had my basement refinishing contractor and the inspector both out looking at my project recently and asked them if it would be OK if we just put some sheet foam and panel up leaving the walls with a dead air space and made the panels removable so we could repair plumbing if needed. When the contractor stopped laughing, he said that was the craziest idea he has ever heard and that he wanted no part of it. The inspector told me if I was serious he would not sign off on my permit! I told them I was just kidding and wanted to relate my industry to theirs.  
 
The inspector has a Coleman spa and asked me after thinking about it if there was a way he could foam his spa after the fact.  
 
I know the arguments for both sides here and am not trying to take sides but I thought it was interesting how the conversation turned out from a different perspective outside of the industry. I might have created a monster though because now the inspector is acting like he needs to keep an eye on me or I will try to do something stupid!

True story! How would you look at it from other industries.

[rocket]

Like you, I live in the mid-west.  I have a Marquis Euphoria and 2 1/2 yrs. ago, we had a freeze and lost power for 7 days.  I put a sleeping bag in the equipment area of the spa and with temperatures going as low as 8 degrees during the night.  When the power came back, we had only lost 30 degrees, (101 dowm to 71).  No problem with the equipment.

[Steve]

If you live in a climate where freezing temperatures are common, the purchase of a space heater is a wise one regardless of the insulation design of your spa.

Steve

[empolgation]

If you live in a climate where freezing temperatures are common, the purchase of a space heater is a wise one regardless of the insulation design of your spa.

battery operated of course  

[Steve]

Aren't all "service related items" battery operated?

Steve

[keesterdog]

absolutely steve!  my wife is very much a service related issue and she goes thru a ton of batteries.

[Spatech_tuo]

Hmmmmmm.

[huh?]

absolutely steve!  my wife is very much a service related issue and she goes thru a ton of batteries.

Hope she is water proof!

[Steve]

absolutely steve!  my wife is very much a service related issue and she goes thru a ton of batteries.

Sorry you're not able to prevent that necessity!

Steve

[TALKCalgary.com]

If you live in a climate where freezing temperatures are common, the purchase of a space heater is a wise one regardless of the insulation design of your spa.

Steve

Would this be a good option for our Beachcomber? In fact, would there be "space" for a space heater?

Steve K