Calcium hardiness and other stuff

[orlandoguy]

After performing my first water change, I was amazed at the clarity of the new water but dismayed that the levels seemed out of whack after the shock.  My bromine levels were super high and after the ph down it didn't seem right.

The pool store near my house ran a complete test free of charge and said although the bromine is slightly high, everything is within range except they recommended 18 ozs of calcium hardener be added.  Although I rarely see it discussed here, the bottle was cheap, so I dumped the 18 ozs in.  he said it is a good idea as it will help prevent corrosion later.  Anyone have thoughts on this?

Also, I asked his thoughts on the alcohol cleaning, he replied my tech must be on crack,  agreed with many here that dichlor is not only cheaper than bromine, but also better, and generally gave me a great education for free without pushing anything besides an $8 bottle of calcium hardener on me.

[Vinny]

You shouldn't test the water after you put a lot of sanitizer in the water - it will affect all the other readings. Adjust everything before you add sanitizer and everything should be OK.

As far as calcium, it's part of balanced water and I do believe in having water balanced. Low hardness can cause corrosion and apparently cause the water to foam. Soft water will try to get calcium from somewhere and it will attack any surface it can.

I bought pool calcium chloride (looks like dichlor) and got 4 lbs of it for $8 - cheap enough!

[orlandoguy]

Yep, testing after the initial shock indeed caused the levels to go a little crazy.  Even after 24 hours, the bromine part of the test strip turned deep green seconds after the dip.  I think my mistake was putting in a full cap of bromine and a full cap of oxidizer.  

48 hours later, my water is sparkling and better than it has ever been.

I have decided to switch to dichlor after talking to the pool guy.  It will have to wait until the next drain though.  I was curious about switching after my bromine ran out, and he says you will have cloudy water, so I will wait.

[tony]

Calcium hardness is much more critical in a concrete pool or spa than a vinal or fiberglass pool or modern portable spa.  There are some that believe increasing calcium is not needed (Northman, Pool Solutions).  I like to keep my calcium level at the lowest acceptable level.  High calcium has its issues too.

[orlandoguy]

Interesting.  I often wonder if they recommend stuff to sell more chemicals, and tend to be a big sucker when told of corrosion or other bad things to my investment.

[Bodyaches]

How about Vinegar. We use this for our dishwasher since our water is very hard here in Phoenix. We just fill a small glass and place it in the center during washing dishes..And cheap to.

Dick
SemperFi

[tony]

IMO, it is best to educate yourself as much as possible, get a good test kit and be your own chemist.  I find that you go to one pool store, they tell you one thing, the next tells you something totally different.  And who knows who is interpreting your results.  Hot tubs are such small bodies of water, you will eventually be the best judge of what you need or need to do.  There is certainly a learning curve with cloudy water, etc., but the nice thing about a spa…if it gets too bad, just drain and fill and you start all over.

These forums are great sources of information, along with what your dealer and other establishments tell you.

Calcium hardness should run between 150 and 400 ppm.  I keep mine at the 150 mark.  My tap water runs about 50 ppm.  I find no difference in my water at 50 or 150.  I keep it at 150 only because it puts my water “in balance”.

[tony]

Vinegar could be used to lower pH, but the spa chems are so inexpensive and they come in nice containers.

[Vinny]

How about Vinegar. We use this for our dishwasher since our water is very hard here in Phoenix. We just fill a small glass and place it in the center during washing dishes..And cheap to.

Dick
SemperFi

I've heard that "Tang" works well in a dishwasher removing all deposits too -don't know why though.



As far as calcium, it's true that vinyl products don't need calcium, but the heater can be vulnerable. I personally believe it's better to prevent something from happening than to replace it. If adding calcium prevents your heater from corroding for an extra year or two or possibly more - it's money well spent!

But with that said I too keep my calcium at the lower level - about 200 in the tub and do watch out for it in my pool (above ground) as to not have problems with calcium deposits.

[spanewbie]

orlandoguy - our water is so hard in the Orlando area, I can't imaging having to add more calcium!  
the pH and alk levels coming out of the faucet indicate the need for decreaser.  

we used granular sodium bisulphate (needed ~ 5 teaspoons for 300 gallons) and it tested well.  an hour after adding dichlor, chlorine tested well, but ph and alk readings were higher again.  waited until chlorine was <1, then pH and alk tested well again.
we didn't realize that pH & alk test readings would be innacurate after adding dichlor.  that clears up some confusion.  thanks, Vinny.

dumb question (?) - should we test the water with jets running, or take the sample with still water?

this forum is great - much better info than many dealers and supply stores.  
(not knocking all dealers & suppliers, as I realize that many on this forum are those folks...)

[Vinny]

dumb question (?) - should we test the water with jets running, or take the sample with still water?

this forum is great - much better info than many dealers and supply stores.  
(not knocking all dealers & suppliers, as I realize that many on this forum are those folks...)

I find it easier to test with still water, I fill the test tubes 2 to 3 times to rinse them before adding testing solution - but it doesn't matter.

As for the info aspect - your right. My dealer is great IMO but seems a little weak in the chemicals aspect. I have found that having this resource is great. My dealer gave me a sheet on what to do and when I followed her advice my calcium level was too low and the PH/Alkalinity adjuster wasn't working too well - so a single dealer may not know!

I have had a pool for 4 years now and found a similar forum for it and it really has saved me time and money!

THERE IS NO DUMB QUESTION - OK,  do I have to hook a hose up to fill the tub would be! But seriously asking a question of people who've gone though it before is a great resource.

After 4 years of pool chemistry, I thought I had spa chemistry in my pocket! Not So!! - I have some issues like foam and green tinted water that's not happening in my pool and I look toward experienced people for help!

Ask away!!

[Bill_Stevenson]

Orlandoguy,

There is no stock answer to your question.  I live in West Palm Beach and our water here varies a lot based on rainfall.   I find it necessary to test the base water first before adding anything.  In South Florida the municipal water supplies tend to be treated and on the soft side.  Calcium hardness should be somewhere over 100, but not higher than 200.  I target mine to be 140 as this tends to reduce foaming.  As others have mentioned, it is doubtful if a modern spa is going to be overly susceptible to damage if calcium hardness is low, but very hard water could cause mineral deposits on things like pump seals, shafts, and valve stems.  People who fill from wells or where water is very hard might have more trouble than the rest of us.  If you have to err in the area of hardness it is better to err on the low side.

Regards,

Bill

[HotTubMan]

Calcium hardness should run between 150 and 400 ppm.  I keep mine at the 150 mark.  My tap water runs about 50 ppm.  I find no difference in my water at 50 or 150.  I keep it at 150 only because it puts my water “in balance”.

I think if you kept the CH at 50, you would notice less clarity and increased foaming.