Electrical Problems, and more problems

[colombia]

I am having serious problems with my tub.  

I need a qualified electrician but where I live there are none.  I found the only guy in the city who said he knows anything about tubs, he came over yesterday and asked me where the tub was while standing in front of it.  His idea of a tub is a jacuzzi in a bathroom.

I live in South America.  Some people might remember my long story required to just get the tub here from this link http://www.cartagenapenthouse.com/spa

Anyway, I ordered a GFCI from Canada to be shipped down to me.  But the GFCI will never work.  It always tripped.  So I never used it.

Well, about 6 weeks ago (yes I have been without the tub for 6 weeks trying to find an electrician) one of the wires running into the tub started on fire!!  I jumped out of it and ran into the kitchen to turn off the breaker.  After this I decided that I was not going to use it unless the GFCI was working.

Two different guys tried hooking up the GFCI but it always trips as soon as the power is turned on.  I am wondering if this could be a problem with the power in the building as the wiring is not great.  However, I do have five 220-volt air conditioners and a 220-volt washing machine that all work fine.

For a test I tried to run the tub for several hours (after the wire burned off) without the GFCI.   After about 4 hours the normal breaker in the kitchen flipped off.  Before the wire burned off I had used the tub for 2 months without problems, and without tripping the  breaker ever.

My tub has a Balboa 2000 control center, two dual speed motors, one air pump and an Ozone maker.

Can anyone suggest what would make the GFCI not work?  I am thinking that if I find what is tripping the GFCI that I may then find the root of the problem.

One thing I did notice is about the two motors.  They both are connected to the Balboa control center with a four wire plug that includes the ground.  However, in addition to the green ground wire, one motor has a brass (or is it copper?) ground connection on the outside case of the motor that runs to a grounding point on the side of the Balboa control center.   The second motor also has a mount to connect a similar brass/copper connection but there is no connection.  Are these grounding points on the side of the motor required?  And could the absence of this connection effect the GFCI in any way?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Owning this tub is turning out to be an endless job.

Thanks!

[J._McD]

Start with the control bax area and tell me if it specificlly states 3 wire hook up or 4 wire hook up.

The copper "bonding wire" is what you see attached from component to component and is a secondary grounding wire to the electrical system and it is not your problem.  All of your electrical components also have a "green" grounding wire.

Are you operating on 50 or 60 hertz or cycles?

Your electrical hook up is probably 4 wires representing 2 hot wires each carrying 120volts each for 220 volts, a green wire that is ground and a 4th wire which may be white and representing a neutural wire.

IF you have a three wire hook up system, you will NOT have any place to put a 4th neutural wire which WOULD trip the breaker.

If your system is currently hooked up disconnect the incoming wires and turn the breaker on with the wires disconnected and hanging in the air to see if the breaker trips indicating a bad GFCI or a problem before the Hot Tub.

If the breaker holds then connect the wires back to the terminal strip and disconnect the component wires that are connected to the system.  The blower, the ozone if you have one and the heater, leaving the pump motors connected and power up again to see if the breaker holds.

This is a process of elimination to see what component is tripping your breaker.  If it still trips with the motors connected disconnect them as well and continue on the elimination process until your breaker holds, then begin the reconnection process one component at a time to see if the breaker holds.  If you have a faulty component it will trip the breaker when reconnected.

Good Luck in you trouble shooting.  Let me know if we have a 3 wire or 4 wire hook up referred to in the owners manual.  What name is on the owners manual, the manufacturer of the Hot Tub?

[colombia]

Start with the control bax area and tell me if it specificlly states 3 wire hook up or 4 wire hook up.
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There are 4 wires.  Two 120s, a ground and a neutural.
Inside the control box it specifically ask for 4 wires.
*********************

The copper "bonding wire" is what you see attached from component to component and is a secondary grounding wire to the electrical system and it is not your problem.  All of your electrical components also have a "green" grounding wire.
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Yes, all have the green wire.
***********************

Are you operating on 50 or 60 hertz or cycles?
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I do not know.  How would I determine this?  The electricty in this country is the same as the United States.
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Your electrical hook up is probably 4 wires representing 2 hot wires each carrying 120volts each for 220 volts, a green wire that is ground and a 4th wire which may be white and representing a neutural wire.
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Yes, exactly.  However, someone said to me that they could not distinguish between the ground and the neutural.  I do not know what he ment by this but the wiring in the building is not up to American standards to say the least.  Does what he said mean anything?
****************************

If your system is currently hooked up disconnect the incoming wires and turn the breaker on with the wires disconnected and hanging in the air to see if the breaker trips indicating a bad GFCI or a problem before the Hot Tub.
--------------------------------------------
It does not trip like this.
***************************

If the breaker holds then connect the wires back to the terminal strip and disconnect the component wires that are connected to the system.  The blower, the ozone if you have one and the heater, leaving the pump motors connected and power up again to see if the breaker holds.
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I thought of this also.  Only question is about disconnecting the heater.  As far as I can see  I would have to remove two copper L connections that connect to it.  Would this be the correct way to disable it?
***************************

Good Luck in you trouble shooting.  Let me know if we have a 3 wire or 4 wire hook up referred to in the owners manual.  What name is on the owners manual, the manufacturer of the Hot Tub?
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Manual asks for 50-60 amp breaker in main panel.  I have a 50 amp for each hot wire.  Manual then asks for 4-wires, L1, N, G, L2 to waterproof outside disconnect 50-60 amp (220) GFCI (which is exactly what I have) then with the same 4-wires to the spa.

The tub is made by a company called ALP SPAS. Georgia

The  control unit is Balboa 2000 LE.  M Series. (M7)

The ozone is Balboa.

The pumps are flo-master xp2e by aqua-flo.

The air pump I cannot see the brand but the model is ultra-9000

Thanks  

[colombia]

I just noticed something I did not see before!  The GFCI only seems to have 3-wires on it, not 4 wires.  The schematics provided from the spa manufacturer show 4 wires.  But the schematics from the GFCI maker show only 3 wires.  And the instructions included with the breaker say this "60 A circuit breakers do not have a load nuetral connection and are suitable only for supplying 240 Vac two-wire (no neutral) loads"  Does this mean I was using the wrong breaker all this time?!?!?!?!

[J._McD]

Yes, wrong breaker.  50 amp breaker will have two wire lugs for L1 & L2 and a 3rd lug for N, you common also known as ground wire will go go to the common buss bar and the curly wire known as teh pigtail will also connect to the common bus bar.

Let us defer until you get the 50 amp breaker.

you will have 4 wires coming from the main supply the common and the neutural wires from the main supply go to the common buss bar.

[colombia]

Yes, wrong breaker.  50 amp breaker will have two wire lugs for L1 & L2 and a 3rd lug for N, you common also known as ground wire will go go to the common buss bar and the curly wire known as teh pigtail will also connect to the common bus bar.

Let us defer until you get the 50 amp breaker.

you will have 4 wires coming from the main supply the common and the neutural wires from the main supply go to the common buss bar.

So there is NOTHING   I can do with this 60A breaker?   No work around?  $300 in the toilet?  (It was $200 plus $100 shipping)

Incidently, I just removed the heater and all motors.  But as soon as I turn on the power the breaker goes.

[colombia]

So there is NOTHING   I can do with this 60A breaker?   No work around?  $300 in the toilet?  (It was $200 plus $100 shipping)

Incidently, I just removed the heater and all motors.  But as soon as I turn on the power the breaker goes.

I can feel my pain.        :-/  I first started this tub advernture in November.  Maybe some things are not ment to be.

[J._McD]

Reviewing the electrical instructions of the manufacturer, what do they call for a 50 amp breaker or a 60 amp breaker?

[colombia]

The instructions from the manufactuer say the breaker can be either 50 amp or 60 amp.

[bosco0633]

J. MCD, I just did my wire on a 50amp GFI 2 pole breaker.  My dad is an electrician and here is something we noted.

I too, hooked up two hot, one neutral and a ground from the inside panel connected to a 60amp breaker in the house.

Once out to the pony panel, we started the hook up, but when you read the small print in the manual it says that the neutral and white "curly wire from GFI" hook to common neutral bus.

You must hook your ground up to a separate ground bus bar which you may install anywhere in the pony panel.  The instructions clearly suggest to ensure that you do not connect the ground wires to the same bus bar as the neutral.  

Could this have been an oversigt.  My father said that this would cause issues with my hook up.


I also live in Canada and my GFCI has only 3 wire hook up as well, then you add ground to seperate bus from neutral hook up.

Does this make sense to you, ill speak with my dad and ask him to explain it again to me.

[J._McD]

J. MCD, I just did my wire on a 50amp GFI 2 pole breaker.  My dad is an electrician and here is something we noted.

I too, hooked up two hot, one neutral and a ground from the inside panel connected to a 60amp breaker in the house.

Once out to the pony panel, we started the hook up, but when you read the small print in the manual it says that the neutral and white "curly wire from GFI" hook to common neutral bus.

There is a load screw on the bottom of the breaker for a neutural wire.  If you have a 4 wire hook up thsi is where your neutural wire is hooked up.  If you have a 3 wire hook up, you have no need for a neutural wire and if you hook one up you will have nusiance tripping.

[Drewski]

Hi Colombia:

Sounds like you have a real problem.

First, for a wire to "start on fire," it has to be overloaded to a point that heat melts the insulator and causes a fire. One thing I didn't see discussed here (maybe I missed it) was the gauge of wire you ran to your tub. Hopefully, it's rated for 50 AMP load.

Second, I'm wondering if you have a "SquareD" brand 60 AMP GFCI breaker. My GC installed this breaker in the remote pannel for my tub when they built my house and it was NOT the right breaker for a 4 wire set-up. In fact, SquareD only offers a 50 AMP GFCI for this application in their "QO" line of breakers. Here's a picture of it:



Given your situation, I'd highly recommend purchasing from Ebay for what you need. Click here for a link to a current auction. You should also be able to sell what you bought (assuming it WORKS) on Ebay and at least recover some money.

Also, I've seen Brewman (who is a licensed electrician) give some excellent advise on this forum (not that J._McD is doing bad) and he may be able to help if you PM him.

Good Luck!

Drewski

 

[colombia]

WOW!  That is exactly the breaker I bought except in 60A!!!!

Here is a photo of it!






It would be nice to sell it on Ebay except I live in Colombia (as in South America) and is cost me $100 just to ship it down here.  A buddy of mine is coming down on Friday for a vacation and should be bringing the correct breaker.  With the shipping I am out about $300 on this thing.  Shame, but it is one of the costs of living here.

[HotTubMan]

 My experience with Ebay tells me that many sellers actually make their money on marking up the shipping. This may not be your situation, but if the shipping was quotted to you by the seller, I would investigate further.

I received something one province away (Quebec to Ontario) and was charged $40US for shipping. The sender used Canada Post and it was stamped $7.5 CDN.
We payed the seller $12US for the contents of the package. Big scam.

[colombia]

My experience with Ebay tells me that many sellers actually make their money on marking up the shipping. This may not be your situation, but if the shipping was quotted to you by the seller, I would investigate further.

I received something one province away (Quebec to Ontario) and was charged $40US for shipping. The sender used Canada Post and it was stamped $7.5 CDN.
We payed the seller $12US for the contents of the package. Big scam.

I did not buy mine on Ebay.  I am saying if I sold it on Ebay it would be too expensive to ship since I am so far away.  When I bought mine originally, I had a friend buy it in Canada and FedEx it to me which cost $100.