Problem with Bromine Tablets?

[ebirrane]

Hey all,

 A good friend of mine ownes a Sundance Cameo and uses the Bromine Tablets to keep his tub clean.  He doesn't read these boards, but I have heard on and off that tablet Bromine is a "Bad Thing" (tm) and was wondering if this was the case.

 Certainly if there is something destructive about using this I'd like to know so that I can offer him some suggestions for keeping his tub healthy and in good shape.

-Ed

[Spa_Tech]

Hey all,

  A good friend of mine ownes a Sundance Cameo and uses the Bromine Tablets to keep his tub clean.  He doesn't read these boards, but I have heard on and off that tablet Bromine is a "Bad Thing" (tm) and was wondering if this was the case.

  Certainly if there is something destructive about using this I'd like to know so that I can offer him some suggestions for keeping his tub healthy and in good shape.

-Ed

I discourage pretty much everyone to avoid using compressed tablets and floating chemical dispensers in their portable spas...

There are two problems in my view that make them less desirable to use in a hot tub. 1) Your portable spa has a cover on it- Unlike a pool, your spa has a cover that can trap chlorine gas. This gas is often strong enought to do damage to your cover, any headrests, as well as your lungs...2) A floating dispenser does not give you very much control over how much chlorine or bromine your spa uses. In most cases, chemical will be eroded into your spa whether or not it needs it. This leads to yet another problem- some tablets can adversely effect your pH, frequently making the water more acidic, and possibly more aggresive towards the metal parts of your spa...

I recommend all my chlorine/bromine customers to use a granulated product, only to be added after each use and once a week as a shock, with the jets running and the cover opened. This in my opinion, limits the corrosive effects and will help prevent chemical damage over the life of the spa.

[bulmer4nc]

I discourage pretty much everyone to avoid using compressed tablets and floating chemical dispensers in their portable spas...

There are two problems in my view that make them less desirable to use in a hot tub. 1) Your portable spa has a cover on it- Unlike a pool, your spa has a cover that can trap chlorine gas. This gas is often strong enought to do damage to your cover, any headrests, as well as your lungs...2) A floating dispenser does not give you very much control over how much chlorine or bromine your spa uses. In most cases, chemical will be eroded into your spa whether or not it needs it. This leads to yet another problem- some tablets can adversely effect your pH, frequently making the water more acidic, and possibly more aggresive towards the metal parts of your spa...

I recommend all my chlorine/bromine customers to use a granulated product, only to be added after each use and once a week as a shock, with the jets running and the cover opened. This in my opinion, limits the corrosive effects and will help prevent chemical damage over the life of the spa.

Would this still be the case if you are using bromine tablets (I am using them now...) and you only keep the bromine level around 1ppm.  My dealer told me to keep it lower since we have and ozonator and we also use a Spa Frog in the filter.

Are you saying that if you use granular form of bromine that it dissipates quicker and after 15 minutes and you close the lid there is no more bromine in the spa that can damage the cover or headrests?

I have also seen a few of these comments recently and and again questioning what we are using as I want our spa to last but also want the maintenance to be as easy as possible.  I personally don't like the idea of having to put something in and leave the lid open after every use.  We typically use the spa right before bed and would rather not have to stay up an extra 30 minutes to go down and put the cover back on.

Chas and other have also mentioned Brilliance but I'm not quite sure what that is and how it's that different than the tablets if it's still bromine.

We've had out spa about 3 months now and I'm just getting to the point where I feel we're in a pretty good groove.  For the most part, I put a couple tablets in a week and adjust the ph/alk as necessary and that's about it.  

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to know more why one system (granular vs tablet) is better so that I can make an educated decision to change if I need to.

Thoughts?

[empolgation]

I discourage pretty much everyone to avoid using compressed tablets and floating chemical dispensers in their portable spas...

How about bromine systems such as the King in-line Frog system? - not "compressed tablets" nor a floating dispenser but it does allow bromine introduction as long as the tub's filter or jets are on.

[HotTubMan]

Would this still be the case if you are using bromine tablets (I am using them now...) and you only keep the bromine level around 1ppm.  My dealer told me to keep it lower since we have and ozonator and we also use a Spa Frog in the filter.

Are you saying that if you use granular form of bromine that it dissipates quicker and after 15 minutes and you close the lid there is no more bromine in the spa that can damage the cover or headrests?

I have also seen a few of these comments recently and and again questioning what we are using as I want our spa to last but also want the maintenance to be as easy as possible.  I personally don't like the idea of having to put something in and leave the lid open after every use.  We typically use the spa right before bed and would rather not have to stay up an extra 30 minutes to go down and put the cover back on.

Chas and other have also mentioned Brilliance but I'm not quite sure what that is and how it's that different than the tablets if it's still bromine.

We've had out spa about 3 months now and I'm just getting to the point where I feel we're in a pretty good groove.  For the most part, I put a couple tablets in a week and adjust the ph/alk as necessary and that's about it.  

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to know more why one system (granular vs tablet) is better so that I can make an educated decision to change if I need to.

Thoughts?

I appreciate where the anti-tablet folks are coming from. IF YOU MAINTAIN APPROPRIATE SANITIZER LEVELS THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH TABLETS The problem is many do not manage their sanitizer levels correctly which results in damage. The spikes in bromine levels tends to happen alot when usage patterns change. If your life gets busy, you might not use the tub as much. If that is the case, you should change your floater settings. Unfortunately many forget to that, because life got busy.

Whether you manage you sanitizer level or not, tablets will tend to lower TA and pH.

MTC;

HotTubMan

[ebirrane]

Thanks for the responses!

The impression that I am getting is that the danger of bromine tablets is that it is possible to over-sanitize your tub if you put enough tablets in to support frequent usage and then decrease the usage pattern.  
Or, more likely, too, that is is easy to be lazy and drop extra tablets in and "let it go" for a long time.

Whereas if you dilute and mix in yourself, and forget, the tub will just get cloudy and need a shock.

The danger of over-sanitizing is reduced life of pillows and cover.  The danger of under-sanitizing is more shocking and more frequent water change.

Aside from improper usage is there any other reason to not use Bromine tablets?  Are there any dangers if you "stay honest" with your chemistry?

-Ed

[Chas]

Thanks for the responses!

The danger of over-sanitizing is reduced life of pillows and cover.
Aside from improper usage is there any other reason to not use Bromine tablets?  Are there any dangers if you "stay honest" with your chemistry?

-Ed

Yes.

Bromine tablets are about 44% chlorine. This chlorine will gas off constantly, whether your are keeping an eye on things or not. It is this chlorine gas cloud that breaks down the vapor barrier inside the cover and causes the dreaded water absorption. Brilliance is a blend of the best of both worlds: you have a floating feeder, but you add the oxidizer yourself - and you can leave the lid open for a few moments with the jets on to get rid of the gas.

I do not recommend tablet bromine for my patients who chew gum. Wait - I don't recommend tablet bromine at all.

[empolgation]

Yes.
Bromine tablets are about 44% chlorine.

Chas, do the tablets with  '96%  1-bromo-3-chloro-5, 5-dimethythydantoin' have that much chlorine as well when disolved?

[Spa_Tech]

I want our spa to last but also want the maintenance to be as easy as possible.  I personally don't like the idea of having to put something in and leave the lid open after every use. 

I believe everyone wants the maintenance on their spa to be easy. The reality is that it already IS easy and many consumers do not want to do anything maintain their spa so they either do as little as they desire or or take the solution that requires no thinking on their part.

The floating tablet dispenser solution is an easy way to reduce your responsibilities- but it comes at a cost.

100% of the customers that I've run into that use a tablet dispenser have some form of chemical damage to their spa. What percentage? 100%... In eight plus years have yet to find a single customer that uses a 'floater' that hasnt done some damage to their spa-- Frequently, the things that I'm hired to repair are the direct result of using the floater and/or bad H2O chemistry.

I personally have no stake in what anyone uses- All I can do is tell you what I see in the field.

[Chas]

Chas, do the tablets with  '96%  1-bromo-3-chloro-5, 5-dimethythydantoin' have that much chlorine as well when disolved?

That type has a slightly lower Chlorine content: about 30% if I recall correctly.

[bulmer4nc]

Somehow, I have a hard time believing this argument to not use bromine tablets.  What you are saying is probably true to some extent but I question whether its any different than those who use a chlorine based system.  

If you put dichlor in after every use and leave the lid open for a while, does all that chlorine burn off before you put the cover back on?  I doubt it.  There is likely still some (if not quite a bit) of Chlorine in the water when you put the lid back on and the same gasses will accumulate and damage the cover and pillows.  I would think the same could be said for people who use dichlor to shock.  I've read on this board about  how shocking with dichlor 'superchlorinates' the water and you should wait 24 hours or so to use the spa.  Do you leave the cover off for 24 hours to let all that chlorine burn off?

I don't know... Maybe I'm a hard person to convince.  It's just in my nature as an engineer to ask a lot of questions and if I'm going change something that I'm doing,  I want to make sure I have a good reason to do so.

If someone can show me how using dichlor won't damage the cover / pillows as I have suggested above, then I'd love to hear it.  I'm willing to make a change for the right reasons but until then I'll probably stick to my tablets.

As for systems like Brilliance, I looked at that and it appears to be difficult to find.  I can't find a local dealer who sells it and the popular online places don't cary it either.  Is this because it's new?  Or is it just not very popular?

[Brewman]

Have you tried using their online dealer locator?

Fortunately, my spa dealer, who is also a Baqua/Brilliance dealer has quite a few locations around here.  And the local Arctic Spa dealer, who I didn't even know existed, carries the brands as well.  So for me getting the products is relatively easy.  
I also found several online dealers.  Some included shipping in their prices, and were still a bit cheaper than locally.
We just switched to Brilliance from Baqua, it's only been a few days, but so far I'm much more satisfied.  No more cough.  

Brewman  

[HotTubMan]

Somehow, I have a hard time believing this argument to not use bromine tablets.  What you are saying is probably true to some extent but I question whether its any different than those who use a chlorine based system.  

If you put dichlor in after every use and leave the lid open for a while, does all that chlorine burn off before you put the cover back on?  I doubt it.  There is likely still some (if not quite a bit) of Chlorine in the water when you put the lid back on and the same gasses will accumulate and damage the cover and pillows.  I would think the same could be said for people who use dichlor to shock.  I've read on this board about  how shocking with dichlor 'superchlorinates' the water and you should wait 24 hours or so to use the spa.  Do you leave the cover off for 24 hours to let all that chlorine burn off?

I don't know... Maybe I'm a hard person to convince.  It's just in my nature as an engineer to ask a lot of questions and if I'm going change something that I'm doing,  I want to make sure I have a good reason to do so.

If someone can show me how using dichlor won't damage the cover / pillows as I have suggested above, then I'd love to hear it.  I'm willing to make a change for the right reasons but until then I'll probably stick to my tablets.

As for systems like Brilliance, I looked at that and it appears to be difficult to find.  I can't find a local dealer who sells it and the popular online places don't cary it either.  Is this because it's new?  Or is it just not very popular?

I have to side with Bulmer here. ST, Chas what are you guys saying? Tablets are bad or chlorine? I have before me three SpaGuard packages:
Brominating Concetrate- Sodium Dichloro-S-Trianzinetrione 85%, Sodium Bromide 14.7% Availible Chlorine 52.7%
Stabilized Chlorinating Granules-Sodium Dicloro-S-Trianzinetrione 100% Availible Chlorine Content 62%
Brominating Tablets- 1-bromo-3-chloro-5,5-Dimethyl Hydantoin 94% availible bromine content 61%  availible chlorine content 27%

Out of tose three items listed Dichlor has the most chlorine content. You both seem to endorse that but not the tablet that contains 27% chlorine. Chas you stated it is chlorine that wil cause the damage. Please elaborate.

HTM

[Chas]

If you put dichlor in after every use and leave the lid open for a while, does all that chlorine burn off before you put the cover back on?

There is a huge amount of chlorine gas that comes off the water surface in the first ten to fifteen minutes after adding Dichlor.  Get past that, and the off-gassing is much much less.

On my showroom we had a spa that fogged up the window everytime we ran the jets. It was just in the corner and didn't have good airflow from the AC system. So my store manager would add Dichlor and drop the lid, leaving the jets to run for the Ten-minute 'clean' cycle. The other spas on the showroom floor got the same Dichlor on the same days, unless there was a wet test or something else that made one tub need more than the others, which was not the norm, but they all had the covers up for ten to fifteen minutes. If you opened the spas, you could tell very easily which one had the lids left open - the one spa would hit you with a strong chlorine odor as soon as the cover was opened, the other spas did not.

At the end of six months, you could clearly see the difference in the pillows and the bottom of the cover. By the end of the year (our showroom models get changed every year), the cover on that spa was very noticably heavier than the others.

We had to put new pillows and a new cover on that spa when we sold the floor model. this has repeated itself more than once in each of our stores.

As for systems like Brilliance, I looked at that and it appears to be difficult to find.  I can't find a local dealer who sells it and the popular online places don't cary it either.  Is this because it's new?  Or is it just not very popular?

Brilliance is available from Baqua dealers, but they will not let any of us sell it online.

[salesdvl]

While you guys are in a good chemistry mode can I deviate for a minute?  

Is there a test for total dissolved solids?  I dont remember ever seeing one in a kit.  How do you know when they are getting high?  

On my showroom floor I have 2 spas that I did not put covers on.  All the others have covers.  I have been anticipating these 2 spas to start to have water problems ( cloudy etc... ) I have to top them off every day or 2 and they are crystal clear.  I'm sure the TDS are high, since they've been going since early spring but it doesnt seem to bother the clarity.  ??

I use Di-chlor in them and they both have o3.

thoughts?   thanks.