freaking out...electrical question HELP!

[Elle]

We ordered the tub, are having the patio poured,  and having our gazebo built.  Today I got my first quote from the electrician as to our electrical needs.  We currently live in a 7 yr young home with 200 amp service running in a very small box.  I read somewhere that a 200 amp box should have 40 breakers.  We have 30, but the amps are clearly labeled 200 amp.  I was thinking that all we would need would be a subpanel or, if it isn't a huge amount of work (money), a bigger breaker box.
Imagine my shock when this first electrician says, "You'll have to upgrade your service to 400 amp because your full!"  WHAT??  We don't have an overly large home (2,500 sq ft), but we do have electric stove/oven, A/C, and dryer.  Our heat is gas and our hot water is gas.  Shouldn't 200 amps be plenty to add a hot tub, too?

We have another electrician coming tomorrow.  I hope I don't hear the same thing.  This first guy told me that the upgrade would be $1,000.  YIKES!

I just really can't believe he's right.  People in my neighborhood have built in pools, hot tubs, etc...on 200 amps.  GRRRRRRRR!
Your thoughts....

Elle

[Brewman]

Get another bid or two.  I'd think that 200 amp service should be more than adequate.  But to upgrade to 400 amp service for $1000 if it includes the spa rough in and all related parts isn't a bad deal.  
I question the need to upgrade to 400 amps, though.

All you really need is 2 empty slots in your main panel, to install a 50 or 60 (or greater) amp double pole breaker to tap the power off your main panel.  If your existing panel is full, then it's quite possible that extra space could be obtained by having your electrician install a couple piggyback breakers (2 thin breakers in one slot) or installing a sub panel, or even installing a larger main panel, one with more slots.  

Don't be suprised if the wiring quotes you get are upwards of $1000 or more if you need a larger main panel installed, but this should include the rough in for your spa, and it's related parts.  

Good luck, but get a couple more bids if you can, just to see what's possible.

Brewman

[Elle]

The $1,000 bid was just for upgrading the amps to 400.  The running of the new line, etc to the hot tub would be in the $400.00 range.



elle

[cdenyer]

Beware of electricians wanting to take you for your hard earned dough.

The first problem was when someone allowed a 30 circuit panel to be installed in a residence. Most all home panels are 42 circuit. The number of circuits does not have anything to do with the size of service. Most 200 amp services have 42 circuits and most 400 amp services have 42 circuits. Unless you have a very large home, 200 will suffice!

Here are your options:

Reconfigure your existing panel to allow the addition of the new 60 amp 2 pole breaker for your tub. this will require the addition of piggyback breakers for some of your 20 amp loads. This is the cheapest option. I would still recommend that the electrician complete this work. It can be done by the homeowner, but you need to know what you are doing.

Secondly, add a sub-panel next to the existing one. This could be a 60 or 100 amp panel. This would allow for additional spaces that you need.

Lastly, replace the existing 30 circuit panel with a 42 circuit panel. This is the most invasive option and could require involvement of the utility company.

I would go for option 1 or 2. In any case, if you feel like you are getting the shaft, get a second opinion!!!

30 Yr Electrician

[Brewman]

From what I've read on this board, you bid of $400 for roughing in your spa line isn't too bad, but costs vary a lot by location, so do try and get more bids.  
The aggravating part of that is when you try and actually get people to show up.  I hear that complaint a lot.  

Just to put your electric bids into perspective:

My costs for doing my own spa wiring were probably in the $200 to $300 range, including the 60 amp GFCI breaker ($120), conduit, wiring, connectors, permit fees, etc...

Brewman

[autoplay]

We had a sub panel added to our main. We paid 500 for parts and labor. That included adding the new sub panel....the breakers,running 50-55 ft of 6 gauge wire,mounting and installing the other sub panel/breaker box next to the spa,and a 15' pigtail for wiring the spa. Our spa came with the breakers/sub panel that's mounted 5+ feet from the spa..so we saved on that.

It helped having a friend who is a master electrician. Guessing,we coulda paid 800+ for the same job,parts and labor to another electrician.

As others suggested,get several bids.....and go with the price thats midstream.  GL

[Elle]

Honestly, I knew that the electrical hookup would be expensive...add to cost the complications of a finished basement with a drywalled ceiling (thanks master builder guy).  I just was never expecting to hear that we needed to up our service to 400 AMPS.  The price this guy quoted for the actual wiring was wonderful at $400.00.  However, I would never do business with him because he, at best, doesn't know what he's doing and, at worst, is a criminal.

Elle...who has two more bids coming in on Fri and Sat.

[Wheeler]

I'm no electrician, but I'd definitely question the need for 400amp service.  Most new homes today probably have 200 amp service, and people install spas and pools all the time, plus run all your housefull of electronics, etc.  I seriously doubt if you have enough stuff running at the same time to max out your service.  Don't let someone try to add up all the numbers from the breakers inside your panel and tell you that it's over 200 so you have to upgrade, or that you need 400 amp service because all the slots in the panel are full.

If you don't have room in your main panel (like my situation) you have the electrician replace some of the existing 15 and 20 amp circuit breakers with half-height (piggyback, buddy, etc) breakers to free up the space for the double pole 220V 50A or 60A line for your spa.  Then you add subpanel and possibly some conduit, some 6 ga wire, a GFI breaker, and you're all set.

This is exactly what I had done and it cost about $1000 in the Sacramento area.  Of course, in the electrician's defense, this included some trenching through rock-hard ground.  I coulda shaved a couple hundred bucks by digging my own 15 or so feet of 18-inch deep trench across my yard to the spa location, but I was happy to pay someone else to do it as I didn't have the time or patience.

Best of luck!

[Wheeler]

Also, watch out for electricians with fleets of shiny new trucks... they gotta pay for those things somehow, and guess who's paying...  

[r100rs]

I don't feel you need to upgrade to 400 Amps.  IF you do, I believe the next upgrade is to 320 Amps.  Not 400.
That price you were quoted may include upgrading the input power cable to your house.

Recommend replacing your 2-slot 2-pole 30A dryer ckt brkr.  A good replacement is at Lowes (approx $18).
In those same 2-slots, you get a 30A double pole plus 2-15A single pole or 2-20A single pole.  I think there is one that has one of each. (30-20-15)

Is your stove/oven a range or are they seperate units?  If they are seperate, I believe you can get one with 1-40A and 2-15A or 2-20A.

I did both of these in my house and that gave me four extra circuits.

I know my Optima will be on a 60A ckt, and we are still considering a swimspa.  The one frm D1 also runs on a 60A ckt.  In that case I would have to upgrade.  Even though I have the space for 2-60A brkrs, but with my A/C, oven,stove,furnace, washer, and sump pump, I know I would be over 200A.

r100rs

[r100rs]

That should have been $18 not $1 - I see how that happened - the   is made up of the 8 and the )

Well duh!!!!

r100rs

[tonyp]

My house is about the same size as yours with a 200 amp panel.  40 slots, used the last 2 for the Spa.  My panel won't accept tandem breakers (2 in one slot), so if I need another circuit, I'll add a sub-panel.  400 amps is over-over-over kill.

[Elle]

Thanks!  You guys/gals are the absolute best...and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  

r100rs, I'm going to see if what you suggested is possible in my breaker box.  I really hope it is.
I'll find out more infor tomorrow from the next guy.  This is the guy the spa place recommends.  He has installed quite a few spas in my neighborhood, so I'm hopeful he'll have better news.

Elle

[windsurfdog]

Here are your options:

Reconfigure your existing panel to allow the addition of the new 60 amp 2 pole breaker for your tub. this will require the addition of piggyback breakers for some of your 20 amp loads. This is the cheapest option. I would still recommend that the electrician complete this work. It can be done by the homeowner, but you need to know what you are doing.

Secondly, add a sub-panel next to the existing one. This could be a 60 or 100 amp panel. This would allow for additional spaces that you need.

Lastly, replace the existing 30 circuit panel with a 42 circuit panel. This is the most invasive option and could require involvement of the utility company.

I would go for option 1 or 2. In any case, if you feel like you are getting the shaft, get a second opinion!!!

30 Yr Electrician

Excellent advice, cdenyer!
 
Elle, ABSOLUTELY NO WAY do you need more than a 200 amp service with gas heat and gas hot water!  You didn't say but I wouldn't be surprised if your range isn't gas as well.  Either way, the first electrician talks as if he either 1) doesn't know a thing about residential electrical requirements or 2) is deliberately trying to take you for a ride.  Hang in there and find an electrician that knows his stuff.......

[tony]

I agree will everybody above.  A 200 amp service should handle a 5000sf home.  A little reconfiguration should get you where you need to be.