Question re the full foam advantage

[ZzTop]

If thermopane style insulation using dead air is such a great idea, why don't thermopane Spas use air filled spa covers?

It seems to me that ALL manufactures use FULLY FOAMED covers.

I also understand that all portable coolers are FULLY FOAMED.

I would also like to point out that acrylic or fiberglass are very poor insulators of heat and allow the heat to be transfered right through to whatever insulation is next to it.
Now that is either air or foam.
Which is the better insulator to retain heat?  Air or high density foam?

As it is widely acknowledged that the greatest heat loss from a hot tub is at the water surface maybe some of the air filled sales people can explain this for us.

As we see our energy costs are begining to soar in price this becomes an even more important subject.  ie Natural gas and oil based electrical generation costs are on the rise big time.

Regards Zz

[Tman122]

If thermopane style insulation using dead air is such a great idea, why don't thermopane Spas use air filled spa covers?

It seems to me that ALL manufactures use FULLY FOAMED covers.

I also understand that all portable coolers are FULLY FOAMED.

I would also like to point out that acrylic or fiberglass are very poor insulators of heat and allow the heat to be transfered right through to whatever insulation is next to it.
Now that is either air or foam.
Which is the better insulator to retain heat?  Air or high density foam?
__________________________________________
Air is the worst insulator in the world, Snow makes a better insulation material. But with a heat source (4-8 hours a day of filtering) Air will transfer heat better than foam into the water. But any gains in effieciancy are lost during the 16- 20 hour balance of every day. It's a wash!
__________________________________________

[ZzTop]

It seems to me that ALL manufactures use FULLY FOAMED covers.I

Well there is nothing like answering your own question.
While surfing the net I have found one Company that makes a Spa Cover using air as insulation.  WOW



Web site:

http://www.spacap.com/products.htm

regards Zz

[keesterdog]

first i want to say that i really have no pref over full foam or thermo pane styles.  but , in response to your question---- there is no heat generating source involved with a cooler or spa cover, i.e. pumps.  so naturally it would make sense to use a soild core in these applications.  now if you could run some kind of heating channels through your cover and pump the hot air from your motor compartment through yor cover that would sound ideal to me.
use full foam around the spa and pump the excess heat from the pumps to where the spa looses the most heat.

i just thought os this but it sounds like the most efficient use of heat reclaimation. imo.

[windsurfdog]

Here we go again......reopening a worn out can of worms.

Thank goodness Zz found the SpaCap info....at least something good came out of it.  Interesting product--definitely worth a look.  It does concern me that they haven't managed to market the product to retailers.  They certainly aren't trying to 'make friends' with them after reading some of their commentary......

[Steve]

If thermopane style insulation using dead air is such a great idea, why don't thermopane Spas use air filled spa covers?

It seems to me that ALL manufactures use FULLY FOAMED covers.

I also understand that all portable coolers are FULLY FOAMED.

I would also like to point out that acrylic or fiberglass are very poor insulators of heat and allow the heat to be transfered right through to whatever insulation is next to it.
Now that is either air or foam.
Which is the better insulator to retain heat?  Air or high density foam?

__________________________________________
Air is the worst insulator in the world, Snow makes a better insulation material. But with a heat source (4-8 hours a day of filtering) Air will transfer heat better than foam into the water. But any gains in effieciancy are lost during the 16- 20 hour balance of every day. It's a wash!
__________________________________________


Tearing off that lid on the can of worms a bit further, let me give you an alternate method with an interesting approach.

Most agree that insulation (foam) gives good insulation properties. It's also true that an entire air space with very little foam on the walls and floor is a poor design. It's true that pumps do generate heat, but not enough to heat a complete empty cabinet in cold climates when we understand that no tub can be 100% thermally closed or sealed. It's true that if there were draw-backs of full foam, it would be tougher repairs and not being able to recover any of the heat the pumps do generate when they are on high speed.

Most everyone here knows I sold Beachcomber. A great tub with full insulation. I have never been an advocate for thermally closed tubs (ie. Arctic) and never will be.

This is the reason I found Hydropool's design to be so interesting. It's not fully foamed nor thermal pane. It takes the principles of both and combines the positive attributes into one design. 56 frame motors do generate
about 112 degrees on low speed and over 120 on high speed. Acrylic and fiberglass allow the induction of heat so why not have a small heated layer of air space running directly on the underside of the acrylic? Makes sense to me.

The concern has always been that the thermal design doesn't prevent the plumbing from moving when the pumps are engaged. With Hydropools design, the plumbing is secured and wrapped with polyurathane and then a 2lb insulation layer is sprayed up against that. One more smaller section of heated air is then used between the cedar and foam giving a multi layer of insulation. I was blown away with their design persoanally. It allows much easier access in the case of repairs while still offering insulation and the heat transfer back into the water (heat rises) from this air space under the acrylic. It's very well thought out.



Steve

[huh?]

zz-

You are a huge help to a lot of people on this board.  I have much respect for what you have to say.  However, you are not going to convince the TP followers that FF is superior.  Just as they will not convince the FF followers that TP is better.  As for the Coolers, the thermos company actually makes both foam insulated and air insulated products.  Covers taper.  They shed water.  From what I have seen they average a 4" to 2" taper.  TP spas typically have a layer of insulating foam on the exterior, this can be up to 4" or more.  So with 4" of foam, wouldn't the sides be more insulated than the cover? The truth of the matter is neither FF or TP tubs freeze when temperatures drop.  This board has yet to see any proof (written from a sound source)  that either system is better.

Shopping the competition, I have heard everything from "you don't foam fill you basement do you?" to "plumbing will rattle its self loose in non foam filled tubs"

There is no right or wrong.  It is a wash.  People will always have opinions, in which they are entitled to.  There is nothing wrong with that.

This is meant to be a statement that is neutral.  Please take it as which.

-Cheers

[keesterdog]

steve,  i'm curious.  why the sudden jump onto the hydropool bandwagon.  i thought that you had said that their quality was suspect.  also when did they change to this hybrid thermopane design.  i have a three year old hydropool 700 series that doesn't have this design.
could i just get some foil backed insulation and apply it to the walls of my cabinet to acheive this system.  i love my tub but it isn't exactly the most energy efficient thing out there.  my electric bill must have jumped at least $60 per month after we got the tub.

[Steve]

steve,  i'm curious.  why the sudden jump onto the hydropool bandwagon.  i thought that you had said that their quality was suspect.  also when did they change to this hybrid thermopane design.  i have a three year old hydropool 700 series that doesn't have this design.
could i just get some foil backed insulation and apply it to the walls of my cabinet to acheive this system.  i love my tub but it isn't exactly the most energy efficient thing out there.  my electric bill must have jumped at least $60 per month after we got the tub.

No "bandwagon jumping" just a smart business decision. Was the term "bandwagon" used in a negative way or as a shot of some kind? We all try to better oursleves and sometime opportunities arrise that make good businessand financial sense. It was right for ME on many different levels. Do you not approve?

I also want to make clear that I think Beachcomber is a great product. I'm not as shallow as some may assume to think the spa I sell is the only quality unit availabe.

At no point did I say that I suspected their quality and if you can point out where I said anything remotelty close to that, I would appreciate it.

Their insulation design has been implemented since 1995 so I suspect you have it. For the record, it's not a complete design change from what I was previously selling other than implementing some added spaces allowing the induction of heat from the motors.

Have you ever had your tub metered? Over the many years I've been doing this, I've heard some pretty wild numbers from many different owners of different spas. As for the tin foil system, I have another contact that could best suggest the proper application. I'll check to see what name he's using this week and pass it on.

I had one guy a few years ago tell me his 2 year old Beachcomber was running about $150.00 / month. Rather than uncontrollably laugh at him on the spot, we installed a meter for 6 months. It turned out to be an average operating cost of $26.00 / month during that time.

Steve

[Steve]

Oh, and I totally agree with huh in regards to ZZ and his level of good advice on this forum. I also repsect him a great deal and value his comments here. Keep it up my friend! You are in demand!

Steve

[Spatech_tuo]

steve,  i'm curious.  why the sudden jump onto the hydropool bandwagon.  

I'll go out on a limb and say that maybe the almighty Canadian dollar convinced him.

[stuart]

Thought I would paste this here to as it seemed to apply!

Just thought I would share something. I had my basement refinishing contractor and the inspector both out looking at my project recently and asked them if it would be OK if we just put some sheet foam and panel up leaving the walls with a dead air space and made the panels removable so we could repair plumbing if needed. When the contractor stopped laughing, he said that was the craziest idea he has ever heard and that he wanted no part of it. The inspector told me if I was serious he would not sign off on my permit! I told them I was just kidding and wanted to relate my industry to theirs.  
  
The inspector has a Coleman spa and asked me after thinking about it if there was a way he could foam his spa after the fact.  
  
I know the arguments for both sides here and am not trying to take sides but I thought it was interesting how the conversation turned out from a different perspective outside of the industry. I might have created a monster though because now the inspector is acting like he needs to keep an eye on me or I will try to do something stupid!

True story! How would you look at it from other industries.  

Have you ever had your tub metered? Over the many years I've been doing this, I've heard some pretty wild numbers from many different owners of different spas.

Great recommendation!  I think anyone that has a doubt as to what the cost is should have it metered. We keep a meter on-site so that we can test it for customers.

As for the tin foil system, I have another contact that could best suggest the proper application. I'll check to see what name he's using this week and pass it on

You might want to see if his name has been legally changed again after his recent tiff with the bank.

[keesterdog]

steve,
there was no shot intended.  i think you give lots of useful info.  i will definitely look into metering my spa. how do i go about doing this.  also my spa definitely does not have any insulation sprayed onto the walls of the cabinet.
thanks again
bill

[keesterdog]

steve,
i may have you mixed up with steve-o from another board who responded with "The floor channel has a pvc fitting fiberglassed into the the tub...if it ever leaks (and they have had a few) it is virtually unfixable. Other brands that we had running next to the Hydropool have been visually superior. Their quality control is also highly suspect..
sorry for the mix up
bill

[Steve]

No problem Bill. Sorry for being unduly defensive.

I just erased (forever I think) over 500 songs I had on my computer with Track Eraser Pro. I'm a li'l on edge
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
It only took me a year or so to get those and a bunch of movies from Kazaa.

Your dealer should be able to provide a meter or possibly your hydro company? One of the benefits with Hydropool is that the frame is self-supporting so some purchase it without the cabinet and either drop it into a deck or build their own. It's possible this is the case.

As for steve-o's post, there's no PVC fittings fiberglassed to the tub on a Hydropool spa so I'm not sure which brand he is speaking of. It seems to have similar or slightly stronger jet action than other spas IMO.

So far, I'm impressed with what I've seen and heard from our customers.

Steve