Hot Springs ACE system

[PJC]

Purchased a new Hot Springs Grandee with the ACE system which was delivered a month ago.  Overall, we are quite happy with the tub.  However, I am having trouble keeping the Chlorine level within the recommended 3 - 5 PPM range with the ACE salt water system.  I'm up to 5.5 cups of salt and they say not to exceed 6 cups.  I've called the dealer multiple times and they keep giving different advice.  Bottom line is that I'm losing confidence in the ACE system's ability to produce enough Chlorine.  We use the tub 4 - 5 times a week. 

Anyone else having trouble with the ACE system?  If it doesn't begin to work properly, I am going to ask for my $1,000 back and go with a typical ozonator.....

[hottubdan]

If you are maintaining 1 +/- ppm chlorine and the water quality is good, I really wouldn't be concerned.  Have you used the boost function?

[dark rider]

Based on what I've read/heard, your levels should not be in the 3-5ppm range with a saltwater system!  That is the desired Free Chlorine (FC) level for a tub that is stabilized with CYA, which is found in dichlor.  The non-stabilized chlorine produced by the ACE system is much stronger, and does not need to be that high.  One of the chemistry gurus over on another forum posted that a .6ppm FC reading with ACE would be the equivalent of a 4ppm FC reading on a 30ppm CYA stabilized tub at 104F.

Due to more drama than I care for, I still haven't taken delivery of my ACE equipped Grandee, so I still can't speak to my experiences with it... but the good news is that delivery is scheduled for this week! 

[dark rider]

PJC, my ACE equipped Grandee is now installed and up and running, so if you'd like to compare notes, feel free to PM me.

[bikz]

If you are maintaining 1 +/- ppm chlorine and the water quality is good, I really wouldn't be concerned.  Have you used the boost function?

Nice to know. Thanks!
 
My new tub is coming with ACE installed.

[PJC]

After multiple calls to the dealer, I was told that "new literature" out from Hot Springs says that I should have put 4 or 5 tablespoons of Chlorine in to "jump start" the ACE system.  I wish that I was told this in the beginning.  I did that a couple of weeks ago and it seems to be working fine now.  I did have to turn down the usage level as it seemed to be producing too much chlorine.  (strong smell and reading off the charts)

Finally after a month and a half, everything seems to be working fine.  We like our Hot Springs and the ACE system allows for almost no maintenance.

[Jet Sitter]

Thats a nice tub PJC - good to hear that you got the system running properly.  Are you testing FC with strips or a test kit?  I know some guys shock their ACE system tubs and some don't and I am not sure if there is a recommendation yet from Hot Springs on this.  Do you have the ozonator hooked up? 

[bikz]

Thats a nice tub PJC - good to hear that you got the system running properly.  Are you testing FC with strips or a test kit?  I know some guys shock their ACE system tubs and some don't and I am not sure if there is a recommendation yet from Hot Springs on this.  Do you have the ozonator hooked up?  

Jet Sitter, here's what my ACE System owners manual identifies as necessary pre start up supplies.

Concentrated Chlorinating Granules, MPS Oxidizer, pH Up, pH Down, Defoamer, 5 way test strips, and Clean Screen-pre filter. Additional Vanishing Act Calcium Removers (if needed)

Also it states that both Ph and Total Alkalinity must be in the OK range before starting the ACE System. Ph target 7.4 (OK range 7.2 to 7.6) - Alkalinity target 80ppm (OK range 40ppm to 120ppm)

PJC - hope you don't mind my interjecting this, but after reading an earlier post of yours it sounded like you didn't get this information prior to start up. Don't feel bad tho. My dealer isn't anymore up to speed on the ACE System than yours. That's a topic for another day

[bikz]

Thats a nice tub PJC - good to hear that you got the system running properly.  Are you testing FC with strips or a test kit?  I know some guys shock their ACE system tubs and some don't and I am not sure if there is a recommendation yet from Hot Springs on this.  Do you have the ozonator hooked up?  

Jet Sitter, here's what my ACE System owners manual identifies as necessary pre start up supplies.

Concentrated Chlorinating Granules, MPS Oxidizer, pH Up, pH Down, Defoamer, 5 way test strips, and Clean Screen-pre filter. Additional Vanishing Act Calcium Removers (if needed)

Also it states that both Ph and Total Alkalinity must be in the OK range before starting the ACE System. Ph target 7.4 (OK range 7.2 to 7.6) - Alkalinity target 80ppm (OK range 40ppm to 120ppm)

PJC - hope you don't mind my interjecting this, but after reading an earlier post of yours it sounded like you didn't get this information prior to start up. Don't feel bad tho. My dealer isn't anymore up to speed on the ACE System than yours. That's a topic for another day

Following all instructions to a T. I'm happy to say my ACE System is working perfectly. Less than 15 hours after going through all start up procedures. It is functioning on its own as advertised.

Note: Have ordered a salt test meeter.....an inexpensive one, but it can be calibrated by using a calibration liquid that is readily available. I'll let you know how it works. In the long run it will be far less expensive than buying salt test strips. While the system does do it's own monitoring. I prefer to know more than it is capable of telling me.

[bikz]

Based on what I've read/heard, your levels should not be in the 3-5ppm range with a saltwater system!  That is the desired Free Chlorine (FC) level for a tub that is stabilized with CYA, which is found in dichlor.  The non-stabilized chlorine produced by the ACE system is much stronger, and does not need to be that high.  One of the chemistry gurus over on another forum posted that a .6ppm FC reading with ACE would be the equivalent of a 4ppm FC reading on a 30ppm CYA stabilized tub at 104F.

Due to more drama than I care for, I still haven't taken delivery of my ACE equipped Grandee, so I still can't speak to my experiences with it... but the good news is that delivery is scheduled for this week!  

From the Ace System Owners Manual

"Test the spa water weekly following initial start-up of the ACE system. Adjust the Use Level up if the chlorine level is low, or down if the chlorine level is high, to find the level that produces a stable chlorine level of 3-5 ppm. This will help maintain water quality. Allow 24 hours for a change in Use Level to register in the chlorine reading on a test strip".

Successfully adjusting levels requires allowing the system the allotted 24 hour period to respond to your inputs.

While this system is not complicated. At all. There are very specific instructions that need to be followed. If that is done. It works as advertised.

[chem geek]

There is a difference between having a certain Free Chlorine (FC) level to remain sanitary vs. how much oxidizer is needed to handle bather waste.  For the latter, a rough rule-of-thumb (when there is no ozonator nor saltwater chlorine generator) is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104ºF) tub requires around 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS).

If you use the tub infrequently, say once or twice a week, then you'll want to set the output level of your chlorine generator to be enough to maintain an FC/CYA ratio of around 0.1 since roughly 2-4 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA should be enough disinfectant to kill pathogens including the bacteria that causes hot tub itch.  Since the chlorine level usually drops around 25% per day, that means the chlorine generator will need to generate around 0.5 to 1.0 ppm FC per day.  Even a somewhat lower target amount of 1-2 ppm FC would be OK and would have less chlorine smell during the soak.  However, these amounts of chlorine will not be sufficient for handling longer soaks -- one person-hour is roughly equivalent to 7 ppm FC in 350 gallons -- so when the tub is used infrequently one would need to add more chlorine or MPS after the soak to account for the extra bather load.

If you soak every day, then you have the option of turning up the chlorine generator to handle the bather load, though that can result in a higher FC level at the start of your soak and some people don't like to soak with a higher chlorine level due to the chlorine smell.

The bottom line is that whether you provide most of the chlorine via the chlorine generator or via manual dosing of chlorine after your soak, either way you want to make sure that the FC never gets to zero at any time (except, perhaps, during the soak itself if one is not concerned with person-to-person transmission -- most people aren't since they prefer not smelling chlorine during the soak).  If you either add enough chlorine after the soak or have the chlorine generator set high enough such that you measure at least 1-2 ppm FC before your soak, then you should be in good shape.

As for CYA and a chlorine generator, though it is true that you could try and use 0.6 ppm FC with no CYA, it is much harder to control such a low level of chlorine consistently since the bather load uses up so much chlorine.  Also, the effectiveness of chlorine without CYA will vary a lot with pH whereas having CYA in the water buffers the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level against pH changes.  Note that using Dichlor will increase the CYA level since for every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.  The Dichlor-then-bleach method has one use Dichlor initially usually for around one week (or add pure CYA initially) and then switch to 6% unscented bleach and with a chlorine generator if one is supplementing with additional chlorine one can use a similar approach if one desires.  Or after initially using Dichlor for a week, one could use non-chlorine shock (MPS) instead of bleach or, as noted earlier, one can set the chlorine generator higher to produce all the chlorine needed to handle bather load.

Richard