Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Mendocino101 on February 23, 2007, 02:46:25 pm
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Hello all,
Just got back in from a 3 days of training, it was a great time, met some really great and experienced industry pros. I was reading the board and wow a lot going on and some real interesting posts particularly about the spa ratings. I appreciate Doc, Stuart, Term and Toms among others well thought out and voiced opinions. I found the thread interesting since at our training we had 5 of the brands mentioned among the top rated there to do some real side by side wet testing and build quality comparisons these were all new spas bought off dealer showrooms. It was very eye opening as there are real tangible differences and yet at the same time it was acknowledged that for the consumer who puts any of the spas in their backyard that unless they have some unusual problems most would be happy with any of them but thats not to say that the spas are equal. I must say I came away with utmost pride confidence in the Marquis line.
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Come on fess up what are the biggest differences?
Ray
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Just one question, Mendo...do you still have the same opinion of the Epic as you did before this class? ;)
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Bonni, just know this you are not going to get 160 gallons of water per minute that is concentrated to target one body area for deep therapy from anyone other than Marquis. I mean no one else is even close.
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lol, no thanks but I will say that some might be surprised to learn that one maker uses Velcro to hold in place something that is supposed to insulation, while another uses zip ties to hold plumbing in place.
If you've got legit info. let's share it. Otherwise....what's the point?
You know, I found a national chain of resturants that has steaks that taste better than *any* steak house in north america (proven by national taste test) and doctors have shown thier food is safer to eat. You might know thier name, but then agian, you might be surprsed at who they are. I also found one major national chain makes a policy of spitting in every childs meal. I'd tell you all about it, but you know...why bother. ::)
160 gallons of water per minute that is concentrated to target one body area for deep therapy from anyone other than Marquis. I mean no one else is even close
IS this a desirable sensation? ;)
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Welcome back! Glad you had fun.
Now, give us the good news. Lord knows I would shout it from the mountaintop if I'd done a side by side comparison with the competition. :)
Actually, out of all the Watkins training sessions I've ever been too, I don't recall a single other brand of spa's name ever even being mentioned. They do encourage their dealers to sell HotSprings' positives and never say anything derogatory about the competition, though.
Terminator
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Hey Drew, I will say from personal experience...It is sensational and I would also say desirable!
I didn't mean to put Mendo on the spot, I am sure that a side by side comparison has to be easier than wet testing at various dealers
at different times. So I was just wondering about my tub and I know Mendo would tell it like it is...good or bad, so I asked....not trying to start anything...
And I think Mendo should keep all his info secret..After all, anything that he says will only spark controversy on here and it won't be appreciated for what it is...AT ALL! >:(
I want to know about the doctors that are doing steak testing..are they saying the steaks are safe because they are free from pathologen bacterial contamination or is it because they are free from pesticide and antibiotic residue or are they guaranteed to be from real cows and not clones? Be specific... ;D
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160 gallons of water per minute that is concentrated to target one body area for deep therapy from anyone other than Marquis. I mean no one else is even close
IS this a desirable sensation? ;)
Well this it is very much so actually, now if you only had pin hole jets that move about 8 per minute though them than it would not be but if you are using jets that move 40 gallons of water per jet than its so comfortable and so soothing and gives you deep therapy. So yes when done right it is highly desirable.
"If you've got legit info. let's share it. Otherwise....what's the point?"
Drew,
Whats your point to turn this is some sort of a bashing of another product ? those who know their product, know what I am talking about and if its accurate. Are you suggesting that this is made up ? But please share with me the point of singling out someone, maybe I am wrong but I tried to answer a question that was asked without pointing a finger at any one maker so not to make this into a argument. My point was that when you can see the product side by side that there are real differences.
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Welcome back! Glad you had fun.
Actually, out of all the Watkins training sessions I've ever been too, I don't recall a single other brand of spa's name ever even being mentioned. They do encourage their dealers to sell HotSprings' positives and never say anything derogatory about the competition, though.
Terminator
Term I think that is part of Hot Springs philosophy and it works very well for them. For us It was matter of really knowing your competition and getting much through understanding of why Marquis chooses to do the things they do when you have something side by side, to see, touch and feel you can get a much greater appreciation for those differences. It was not at all about being derogatory about anyone. But I will say the Velcroing of insulation might been seen as such just for what it is.... ;)
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But I will say the Velcroing of insulation might been seen as such just for what it is.... ;)
Makes it easier to take the foam out to repair leaks. Once again, HotSpring leads the way......
Term
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Mendo made his pilgrammage to Marquis and came back reaffirmed that he's selling/representing a quality product. He could go on about how he thinks its the absolute best but in reality it just has to be the best for him. If he took it to the next step and tried to convince us they are the absolute best (assuming he thinks that) we'd all chalk it up to a bias anyway (not that there is anything wrong with that).
I just wish more people would stick to terms like "One of the best", "As good as any", or even "the best IMO" (those 3 capital letters go a long way for me) and avoid over the top statements like "The Best" when on these sites.
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Whats your point to turn this is some sort of a bashing of another product ? those who know their product, know what I am talking about and if its accurate. Are you suggesting that this is made up ? But please share with me the point of singling out someone, maybe I am wrong but I tried to answer a question that was asked without pointing a finger at any one maker so not to make this into a argument. My point was that when you can see the product side by side that there are real differences.
Good for you Mendo, I always thought you had some class and you have just reaffirmed it :)
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Makes it easier to take the foam out to repair leaks. Once again, HotSpring leads the way......
Term
dang Term you got me Hot Springs secret new way for easy repairs is now out of the bag..... :D
uhhh by the way Term and I and I am sure most others know that Hot Springs does not use Velrco..... ::)
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Come on fess up what are the biggest differences?
Ray
lol, no thanks but I will say that some might be surprised to learn that one maker uses Velcro to hold in place something that is supposed to insulation, while another uses zip ties to hold plumbing in place.
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My spa has a zip tie holding a small diameter flexible line in place. I doesn't look like it does much. I imagine they use it to hold the line up during the full foaming process.
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Crud, I thought we really did use velcro. We should.
Term
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Crud, I thought we really did use velcro. We should.
Term
One lovely summer day in 1948, a Swiss amateur-mountaineer and inventor decided to take his dog for a nature hike. The man and his faithful companion both returned home covered with burrs, the plant seed-sacs that cling to animal fur in order to travel to fertile new planting grounds. The man neglected his matted dog, and with a burning curiosity ran to his microscope and inspected one of the many burrs stuck to his pants. He saw all the small hooks that enabled the seed-bearing burr to cling so viciously to the tiny loops in the fabric of his pants. George de Mestral raised his head from the microscope and smiled thinking, "I will design a unique, two-sided fastener, one side with stiff hooks like the burrs and the other side with soft loops like the fabric of my pants. I will call my invention 'velcro' a combination of the word velour and crochet. It will rival the zipper in its ability to fasten."
Mestral's idea met with resistance and even laughter, but the inventor 'stuck' by his invention. Together with a weaver from a textile plant in France, Mestal perfected his hook and loop fastener. By trial and error, he realized that nylon when sewn under infrared light, formed tough hooks for the burr side of the fastener. This finished the design, patented in 1955. The inventor formed Velcro Industries to manufacture his invention. Mestral was selling over sixty million yards of Velcro per year. Today it is a multi-million dollar industry.
Not bad for an invention based on Mother Nature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I used to have some parachute pants with a Velcro fly. I loved those pants, 'cept they were noisy when I used to be able to get love when I had hair and a Delorean. I had shoes with Velcro, too. I was really cool then. It was years ago.
Terminator
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I used to have some parachute pants with a Velcro fly. I loved those pants, 'cept they were noisy when I used to be able to get love when I had hair and a Delorean.
If you're all alone what does it matter if they're noisy?
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/beryfunny.jpg)
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Bonni, just know this you are not going to get 160 gallons of water per minute that is concentrated to target one body area for deep therapy from anyone other than Marquis. I mean no one else is even close.
Umm without starting some kind of war here!! I call BS. And I dont have to talk Jacuzzi here either.
I should add, I dont want chit on your post or start an argument with you about this!! But to say no one is even close or in my opinion more than that would not be right.
Glad you had a nice time at your training,and hope you sell many spas this year.
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Umm without starting some kind of war here!! I call BS. And I dont have to talk Jacuzzi here either.
Jim,
on this is based on what exactly. What statement is called BS. Marquis has a patten-ed jet called an Hk-40, they have a flow rate of up to forty gallons of water per minute, the pump used is rated at 160 gallons of water per minute they cluster these in groups of 4 and you can than divert all the flow from the one pump to those jets.
Jim,
Can you tell me the flow rate for the Jacuzzi jets, I am am not looking for an argument either but anyone with the ability to do simple math can figure out that if your pump is putting out x gallons of water per minute and you are putting though x number of jets than you are only going to be able to get x number of gallons per minute to those jets. Marquis has the only 3 way value in the industry and this is what allows them to isolate therapy and direct it in the way they do.
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I am not saying your spa does not do that I am sure it does thats fine no problem.
But to say no one I mean no one is even close c'mon. If you buy that then there is some land in east Texas I want to sell you.
I will leave it at that.
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I am not saying your spa does not do that I am sure it does thats fine no problem.
But to say no one I mean no one is even close c'mon. If you buy that then there is some land in east Texas I want to sell you.
I will leave it at that.
lol Jim,
I appreciate the offer for land as I am always looking for a good deal, but it just comes down to the philosophy of the maker and what they want to accomplish in their spas. I am not going to back away from my statement, as I believe it is accurate. And all the Best to you this year all well.
Just one more thing I hope who ever is reading this thread will look back about how it was started and why. I only posted because of another thread and spa ratings and in my first post I said that most consumers would be happy with any of the spas if they had them in their yard.
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Well, now you guys have me curious- Mendo, if you say that nobody else is close, then that means you know the flow rates of the competition.
Not trying to stir anything up here, but can any dealers say what amount of water flows to a given therapy area? For example, in my arctic, if I sit in seat "1" with everything diverted to that seat, on high, then all of pump # 1 is hitting my back except for the amount coming out with the ozone. I have no idea how much water that is, but it'd be nice to know. Pump #2 with all of it's power diverted to seat "2" has less "feel" of power than #1, and probably less flow rate, but I have no idea how many gallon per minute. I would not want seat 1 any stronger, but I'd take a little more flow from 2 if it could be made that way. But I'd like numbers!
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Mendo,
I'm glad you got to go to class and get some...well....CLASS!
Your new cell phone sucks! That’s like the 3rd time it's cut me off...um I think it's the cell phone...? :-? You messin' with me Mendo?!?! >:(
I would have loved to been there and I'm sure there were a few jabs thrown about me not making it but I just couldn't get away.
Not only does Marquis do a wet test openly with their dealers on many major brands knowing that they are going to be judged accordingly (think about it, what it the dealer like the competition better?) but they also put those spas through many tests along side the Marquis to make sure we stand up next to any of them.
I remember a few years ago before we had our cold test room at the factory they rented a refrigerated truck and put heat sensors on several brands along side the Marquis to see how we were with heat loss compared to others. We did well but wanted to do more so they came up with several options out of which came the low-E wrap.
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Anne,
Flow rates on pumps that are used in spas can only do so much as they are all subject to the use of for the most part 50 or in a few cases 60 amps electrical draw, so for the most part they will be fairly close, there are other factors that come into to play but they are going to be close, again for the most part. You can get close by just breaking down the jet count and whats running at one time. But the bigger point of the message was that Marquis chooses to get therapy in their spas in this way, it does come at a cost and that is not running all jets in the spa at one time. But if you want mimic a masseuse and that is to work mussel groups one at a time than this is a great way to go, some may prefer to have all jets running at once but the cost for that is flow rate and the more jets you run at once the smaller the jets have to be to create pressure.
Anne,
one more thing and I think this is why some who are involved with other makers have hard time believing this is that they are not familiar with a 3 way diverter valve. This is what allows Marquis to isolate therapy in the way they do, other makers only have 2 way valves and simply would not be able to move water in this way. Marquis took the position that most of the time a spa is used by 1 or 2 people and wanted to maximize the soaking experience for that use. but when you have more people in the spa each and every seat can have jets running but not the isolating hk 40 jets and that is what makes them different.
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101, sounds like you had a great time. I think it's a great idea to become familiar with your competition. I don't know how you could sell spas without being familiar with the technology from other brands. Thanks for keeping us informed. Marquis seems like a great company.
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There's some replies I just gotta laugh at. ::)
Welcome back Mendo!
I'm curious JJ... who does put out a close amount of GPM? I'm confident saying that ours doesn't and I'm OK with that and can accept it. Call BS if you want but at least come back with some intelligence to back that up... ::)
Gaining that experince of a side by side comparison is very powerful and is far better than just sitting around drinking "Kool-Aide" for 3 days ;) .... Good on Marquis!
Steve
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This training event was the best I've ever been to. Marquis purchased a HotSpring, Jacuzzi, Sundance, and Master for its dealers to try out. I thought it was a pretty ballsy move. It was nice to actually try these spas out that I've been selling against for so long. Of course I liked the Epic more than anything, but out of the 4 others I liked the HotSpring the best. As far as product quality, there were 3 with fairly good quality and one was pretty poor, not hard to guess which one! We also got to go on a tour at the factory and saw some new spas/colors options that are about to come out. I'm excited! All in all it was a good event, even the food/beer was good.
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If you buy that then there is some land in east Texas I want to sell you.
So do we. Approximately 200 acres w/ .5 mile of riverfront. Second highest point in Gregg County. Land is suitable to build a 40 acre pond. $600K is asking price.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/propertycopy.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/thepoint.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/rightofway.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC02370edited.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC02376edited.jpg)
Terminator
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I was told that of the brands tested people hands down liked the Epic the best and the HotSpring second....I'm not sure what model that was though.
Interesting comment from the national sales trainer, he said that new sales people walked away with confidence that their product held up to anyone.
What a great move for Marquis to make...You lose a deal now and then to someone saying they liked the competition better and no matter what they say it has to make some salespeople wonder what their up against.
Further more it was pretty ballsy if you think about it, their top dealers and salespeople from all over the country trying these out. What if they liked the competition better? Hands down when they questioned everyone in depth they didn't seem to have one that liked a spa better than Marquis but the potential was certainly there. The one comment I getting from many people that were there is that some of the spas preformed nothing like they looked.
When I started with Marquis I had over 10 years of selling, servicing and owning several brands and was in awe of the difference in massage compared to what I was used to.
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Little known fact - no special reason for brining this up here -
The 'Jetstream' jet can run close to 80 gpm. There are two of them side by side in the foot well of the HP model HotSpring tubs. We call it the "FootWell System."
I have to turn it down, it is too intense for my tender little feet - but my wife loves it at full blast.
http://www.hotspring.com/Hot_Tub_Jets/pop_footwell.html
Most of our models put it on one side of a two-way diverter valve because they are too potent for casual relaxation use. You want them when you want them, but not every day. On some of our smaller model tubs, there is a single Jetstream jet, controlled by a four way diverter valve.
Just some info. Free.
8-)
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Chas and to others I should have clarified something and that is that Yes there are spas that offer higher GMP in some foot areas but not for back or targeted leg therapy.
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So do we. Approximately 200 acres w/ .5 mile of riverfront. Second highest point in Gregg County. Land is suitable to build a 40 acre pond. $600K is asking price.Terminator
That's nothing. I would sell my house for more than that in a second - comps in the area are supporting that - but it has:
No stream
Not the highest part of town
Close to everything - no trip charge for any warranty work
Small pond forms in the back during a storm
Four bedrooms
Living room
New kitchen cabinets
Insulation in the attic only
A HotSpring Grandee in the backyard
A tiny lot (low upkeep)
New replacement vinyl windows - single pane
Foam insulated roll-up garage door
Home theatre room
Very high electric rates
Basic tract home
8-)
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Do ya'll remember which HotSpring model was being tested?
Terminator
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Term,
I think it was the Vanguard.
One thing about looking at competitive product, Many many industries do this. When I was in the automotive industry it was common to have 3 to 4 ride and drives a year, where you drove your product as well as others. The very best I ever went on was with Mercedes as they really gave you an extended drive where we drove up to our local mountains and back about a 180 mile round trip drive and switched cars as we went at the end of the day the BMW was picked as the best of the group even though we sold Mercedes (3 series vs. C series). And in the testing of cars that I thought would score very well based on my perception of what I thought they would be, some did not preform when compared at all. I think the spa training was much like that one tub particularly looked like a monster and performed like a lamb. I thought it was a great tool to learn from.
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Term,
I think it was the Vanguard.
Cool! What was your second favorite spa of the bunch? What did you like about it? What did you like best about your favorite spa (assuming it was the Epic)?
Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm inquisitive by nature. :)
Term
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Term,
for me every tub had strengths and weaknesses. One thing I should clarify we had 6 Marquis to try so it was not just the Epic that we compared to the others. A lot of Marquis people like the Destiny or the Reward best. I love the therapy pillar thats on the Epic, for me theres not a body area that you cannot get to.
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Which Jacuzzi was it? I am not done here with this discussion yet,I am going to call Jacuzzi tech on Tuesday and get the scoop on just how many gallons per minute the PowerPro MX jets put out and the pumps as well. If you had a Jacuzzi at your training you know which ones I am talking about. You can direct 100% to 1 seat or the other in the Jacuzzi with pump 1 running.
http://cdabilliards.com/spas/features/jets/
I was told the Power pros put out 150 gpms but you have me questioning now.
I know Artesian spas also have alot of power in the gold class spas and I will call them also.
Once again I am not slamming your spa's I am just questioning your fact.
FWIW all of the training I have been through also is about product we sell not someone elses but I do keep up on the competition.
Hell I just took a sale from the HS dealer this morning.
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Which Jacuzzi was it? I am not done here with this discussion yet,I am going to call Jacuzzi tech on Tuesday and get the scoop on just how many gallons per minute the PowerPro MX jets put out and the pumps as well. If you had a Jacuzzi at your training you know which ones I am talking about. You can direct 100% to 1 seat or the other in the Jacuzzi with pump 1 running.
http://cdabilliards.com/spas/features/jets/
I was told the Power pros put out 150 gpms but you have me questioning now.
I know Artesian spas also have alot of power in the gold class spas and I will call them also.
Once again I am not slamming your spa's I am just questioning your fact.
FWIW all of the training I have been through also is about product we sell not someone elses but I do keep up on the competition.
Hell I just took a sale from the HS dealer this morning.
Jim how many jets are there in the one seat you can dirvert to ?
I hope we don't get some crazy rating about pumps and gpm as most would concede that it would be almost impossible to claim anything above 200 and when truly rated most high performing are going to be in the 160 to 180 gpm range.
This is an interesting thing about the training and having your competition there to do some side by side compassions. Maybe just maybe Marquis is taking a cue from the 300 billion dollar a year plus auto industry to learn that being able to touch, feel and try your competition is a good thing rather than just assuming you would take the time or have the opportunity to do so on your own. Also this was free and open for you to make your own collusions as you were free to move from any tub of your choice and it was not at lead by anyone at Marquis basically you just had the chance to shop the tubs at your leisure.
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Interesting comparing an Epic to a Vanguard. The Vanguard intentionally uses smaller pumps for energy effiency.
If they wanted to compare more power, maybe they should have tried a Vista or Grandee.
Maybe they couldn't afford one. ;D :D ;)
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Hell I just took a sale from the HS dealer this morning.
I'm up about 600 to 1 over Jacuzzi in my area. :)
Terminator
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101, did they also compare electrical consumption between the different brands? I'm guessing the brands tested were in the same range.
Term,
I think it was the Vanguard.
One thing about looking at competitive product, Many many industries do this. When I was in the automotive industry it was common to have 3 to 4 ride and drives a year, where you drove your product as well as others. The very best I ever went on was with Mercedes as they really gave you an extended drive where we drove up to our local mountains and back about a 180 mile round trip drive and switched cars as we went at the end of the day the BMW was picked as the best of the group even though we sold Mercedes (3 series vs. C series). And in the testing of cars that I thought would score very well based on my perception of what I thought they would be, some did not preform when compared at all. I think the spa training was much like that one tub particularly looked like a monster and performed like a lamb. I thought it was a great tool to learn from.
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Interesting comparing an Epic to a Vanguard. The Vanguard intentionally uses smaller pumps for energy effiency.
If they wanted to compare more power, maybe they should have tried a Vista or Grandee.
Maybe they couldn't afford one. ;D :D ;)
hummm that would be very interesting particularly if it were true. But if you read the thread than maybe you caught the part of not comparing the Epic to the others but having the chance to compare 6 Marquis.
So is there a big difference in the feel of the double moto massage from whats in the Vanguard than say the Vista ?
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101, did they also compare electrical consumption between the different brands? I'm guessing the brands tested were in the same range.
No they did not and also remember this was not a structured class about the competition but again rather a time to look on your own and draw your own conclusions. I did speak with a former Hot Springs person about this and he and I discussed it. I will for the sake of argument keep that to myself as I think the findings would fuel an unpleasant discussion. I will say that the costs are very very close with some models performing slightly better than others.
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Jim how many jets are there in the one seat you can dirvert to ?
I hope we don't get some crazy rating about pumps and gpm as most would concede that it would be almost impossible to claim anything above 200 and when truly rated most high performing are going to be in the 160 to 180 gpm range.
This is an interesting thing about the training and having your competition there to do some side by side compassions. Maybe just maybe Marquis is taking a cue from the 300 billion dollar a year plus auto industry to learn that being able to touch, feel and try your competition is a good thing rather than just assuming you would take the time or have the opportunity to do so on your own. Also this was free and open for you to make your own collusions as you were free to move from any tub of your choice and it was not at lead by anyone at Marquis basically you just had the chance to shop the tubs at your leisure.
In the one seat there are 3 of the MX powerpro jets the other seat there is 10 of the smaller FX jets you can divert all power or lees to each or split between the 2.
The pump is a 2.5hp with 4.5break just dont know the gpms on it.
So were the other spas you had there running?
No I wont bore you with a bunch numbers but I want to know and will PM you with what I find.
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Jim,
first let me say that I appreciate you and your desire to keep a open but positive discussion going. But Jim you have to help me if those jets were 150 gpm and you had 3 running than that would be 450 gpm that you would need to power them with and I would say its very safe and reasonable to know that there is no one pump or even 2 pumps that work in a spa are going to be 450 gpm.
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150 total for 3 jets The Power pro MX jet puts out a chit load of water.
Like I said I will find out on Tuesday.
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Bonni, just know this you are not going to get 160 gallons of water per minute that is concentrated to target one body area for deep therapy from anyone other than Marquis. I mean no one else is even close.
My Coleman Spas have a flow rate of 160 gpm per pump....guess i might disagree with this contention.
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The Power pro MX jet puts out a chit load of water.
I'll second that. The two in my footwell on my J-345 were the strongest one's that I wet tested.
And no 101 I didn't wet test the Epic. It was out of my budget.
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How much does the Epic list MSRP?
Term
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Jim... now that makes more sense. As to why the Marquis is different is that within the seat its-self you can move water 160 gpm to the upper or just on the lower back. What we have that allows to do that is a 3 way diverter that is unique to Marquis.
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Jim,
first let me say that I appreciate you and your desire to keep a open but positive discussion going. But Jim you have to help me if those jets were 150 gpm and you had 3 running than that would be 450 gpm that you would need to power them with and I would say its very safe and reasonable to know that there is no one pump or even 2 pumps that work in a spa are going to be 450 gpm.
I am not english teacher....but huh? One pump has a circulation of 160 gpm, the second has a 160 gpm this equals 160 gpm per pump. I am thinking gpm is not combined......
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My Coleman Spas have a flow rate of 160 gpm per pump....guess i might disagree with this contention.
lol...YES they do and they are powering how many jets ? No matter the take on this without the 3 way diverter you can not direct all 160 gallons to only 4 jets and the jets would have to be built and rated for 40 gpm if you did, the hk 40's are disigned for that hence the name. Please remember if your spa was not designed to be able to direct water to only 4 jets than the jets used are not built for that flow rate.
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I am not english teacher....but huh? One pump has a circulation of 160 gpm, the second has a 160 gpm this equals 160 gpm per pump. I am thinking gpm is not combined......
correct , I was trying to point out that EVEN IF BOTH could be directed to the one seat you would even than not have that kind of a flow rate.
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MSRP on the Vanguard is around $9995 if this helps.
Term
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MSRP on the Vanguard is around $9995 if this helps.
Term
Term remember that the Spa most competitive with the Vanguard would be the 630u or 530u, and would have a similar suggested MSRP. both spas by the way are 2 pump 30 jet spas and are the spa in a non or a double lounge version.
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lol...YES they do and they are powering how many jets ? No matter the take on this without the 3 way diverter you can not direct all 160 gallons to only 4 jets and the jets would have to be built and rated for 40 gpm if you did, the hk 40's are disigned for that hence the name. Please remember if your spa was not designed to be able to direct water to only 4 jets than the jets used are not built for that flow rate.
Ohhh didn't have a Coleman there did ya?...
You can infact divert all the pressure on that 160gpm pump to just 4 jets in some Coleman spas my good friend. I can do it in my spa.
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Term remember that the Spa most competitive with the Vanguard would be the 630u or 530u, and would have a similar suggested MSRP. both spas by the way are 2 pump 30 jet spas and are the spa in a non or a double lounge version.
So the Epic would be more than $10,000 on the MSRP? I'm assuming the Epic is the top of the line Marquis, but it was compared to about the 5th HS in our pecking order?
I'm seriously just trying to figure this out.
Term
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Ohhh didn't have a Coleman there did ya?...
You can infact divert all the pressure on that 160gpm pump to just 4 jets in some Coleman spas my good friend. I can do it in my spa.
Yes you if you turn off other jets that are adjustable but Coleman does not make jets that are built for 40 gpm of flow rate. and it is nice to see you.... ;)
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I've never had issues with my jests when I it. :-? Good to see you too, I pm'd you....
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I've never had issues with my jests when I it. :-?
Soundls lik e you've hit The SHiner Bock early, too! :D
Terrmie
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as long as you know what I'm trying to say....I'm having trouble with my connection, keeps booting me off so I'm trying to type faster than I'm able to..
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MSRP on the Vanguard is around $9995 if this helps.
Term
Wow! The dealer in my area is telling people the Vangaurd lists for $11,800 but they can buy it for around 9k.
Does Watkins pubish a MSRP for you?
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Yes, $9995.
Term
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as long as you know what I'm trying to say....I'm having trouble with my connection, keeps booting me off so I'm trying to type faster than I'm able to..
You and me's always understand each ofther! :D
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/termandhappy.jpg)
Termiy
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Term, what HS spa would you compare the Epic with if someone came into your store for a comparison?
So the Epic would be more than $10,000 on the MSRP? I'm assuming the Epic is the top of the line Marquis, but it was compared to about the 5th HS in our pecking order?
I'm seriously just trying to figure this out.
Term
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So the Epic would be more than $10,000 on the MSRP? I'm assuming the Epic is the top of the line Marquis, but it was compared to about the 5th HS in our pecking order?
I'm seriously just trying to figure this out.
Term
Term did you miss this post ?
Term,
for me every tub had strengths and weaknesses. One thing I should clarify we had 6 Marquis to try so it was not just the Epic that we compared to the others. A lot of Marquis people like the Destiny or the Reward best. I love the therapy pillar thats on the Epic, for me theres not a body area that you cannot get to.
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Hey Term,
Since Dan seems not be able to answer this question maybe you can.
So is there a big difference in the feel of the double moto massage from whats in the Vanguard than say the Vista ?
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Hey Term,
Since Dan seems not be able to answer this question maybe you can.
So is there a big difference in the feel of the double moto massage from whats in the Vanguard than say the Vista ?
Moto and Moto DX are designed to feel the same throughout our product offering. :)
Ya'll take care...see you Tuesday!
Term
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The Epic MSRP is over 13,000. The spas are being held at an undisclosed location, but I'll give you a peek at one of the prisoners ;D:
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4531/hotspringda8.png) (http://imageshack.us)
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Sorry, I've been out a while.
As Term says, each jet is going to feel about the same across the line. However, the Vanguard is an EE spa, meaning the spa is emphacizing energy effiecency.
Grandee and Vista are HP, meaning bigger pumps, more jets, High Performance.
I know you had several Marquis and only one of each competitor.
What were the other models of competitors sampled?
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Wow! The dealer in my area is telling people the Vangaurd lists for $11,800 but they can buy it for around 9k.
Does Watkins pubish a MSRP for you?
MSRP from Watkins reflects the spa and cover only. What many dealers do is add on the value of the accessories, freight, delivery, chemicals...which will give a higher MSRP.
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Sorry, I've been out a while.
As Term says, each jet is going to feel about the same across the line. However, the Vanguard is an EE spa, meaning the spa is emphacizing energy effiecency.
Grandee and Vista are HP, meaning bigger pumps, more jets, High Performance.
I know you had several Marquis and only one of each competitor.
What were the other models of competitors sampled?
hottubdan, I noticed that on the HS website they have the Vanguard listed as a HP model. In fact, they have have attached the HP logo on all the non-classic models. When you go into the pdf they list the Vanguard as EE. I guess it's a typo on the website.
I always thought the Grandee, Vista, Aria, and Envoy were classified as HP models.
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/spa_model_vanguard.html
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hottubdan, I noticed that on the HS website they have the Vanguard listed as a HP model. In fact, they have have attached the HP logo on all the non-classic models. When you go into the pdf they list the Vanguard as EE. I guess it's a typo on the website.
I always thought the Grandee, Vista, Aria, and Envoy were classified as HP models.
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/spa_model_vanguard.html
You are correct. If the marketing department is monitoring, it will be fixed. :P
If not, I will bring it to their attention, fully crediting Gomboman! 8-)
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I believe the spas were:
HS Vanguard
Sundance Optima
Jacuzzi J-365
Master LSX
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I believe the spas were:
HS Vanguard
Sundance Optima
Jacuzzi J-365
Master LSX
I'll bet it was fun. It would give you a source of information not otherwise available. However, you had a full array of Marquis and a middle high from the array of Hot Spring and Sundance. Don't know Master well enough to know where the LSX fits in their line up.
I've been in many Hot Spring and many Jacuzzi. The JAcuzzi Power Pro jet is nice. But then, so is the Hot Spring Jet Stream, as high flow jets go.
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Well this it is very much so actually, now if you only had pin hole jets that move about 8 per minute though them than it would not be but if you are using jets that move 40 gallons of water per jet than its so comfortable and so soothing and gives you deep therapy. So yes when done right it is highly desirable.
"If you've got legit info. let's share it. Otherwise....what's the point?"
Drew,
Whats your point to turn this is some sort of a bashing of another product ? those who know their product, know what I am talking about and if its accurate. Are you suggesting that this is made up ? But please share with me the point of singling out someone, maybe I am wrong but I tried to answer a question that was asked without pointing a finger at any one maker so not to make this into a argument. My point was that when you can see the product side by side that there are real differences.
My point was you, as a dealer for a specific line of tubs publically make allusions to the competitors tubs without providing any real information. Velco? Tie wraps? You saw a difference?
It's those points that would make a great discussion, but if you just do a drive by posting and hint at it, it offers no real value and to me, came across as a very weak attempt to cast some doubts on the competetition.
When asked to talk about it, you simply "LOL".
Since YOU brought it up, and mentioned specific items, Why not identify them? Wouldn't that information be useful? I don't see your point in bringing these things up, unless you want to discuss them. That's my point. What was yours?
I didn't bash you. Trust me. I did make the resturant annalogy, to help illustrate my point. If this was a food forum and I made the post, what would you as a reader think?
I hope you see my point and I hope you see I wasn't try to bash you. If you don't understand my point, please ask again I'll try to explain it differntly.
I haven't had time to read every post in this thread yet, but only skim quickly. Can you talks specifically about what you expereinced in class? Talk specifically to certain tubs and postition your observations against comparable products?
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Coleman Spas Innovations:
Foot Relieve Zone
Zone Therapy targeting specific pain zones
Personal Loungers
Comfort Collars
Above water neck and shoulder jets
Pillows
Galvalium Metal Substructure
ABS Monolithic Pan
Thermolock Energy Efficiency
56 Frame Dual Speed pumps
M7 Controls with Piezo switches
Glass reinforced pylomer shell
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crazy internet blog....i wasn't finished
WORLD RENOWN COLEMAN CUSTOMER SERVICE-FACTORY TRAINED TECHS
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Drew, I think you miss the point completely of Mendo's post. He was just sharing his experience at a Marquis meeting. He only mentioned those things in the context of his amazement at how things are done differently...
If his point was to stir up argument, he would have mentioned the specifics.
And this post would be on FIRE now..and his point would be burried all together! He was just sharing how Marquis did their meeting...and how beneficial that it was to be able to wet test the competition and see some of the manufacturing differences. It was about a TYPE of sales/product information meeting...
Why are you so agressive lately? You should be so happy...you have a wonderful, beautiful tub. And to top it off, you won it with great creativity
and humor...not like the rest of us who had to digest all this info and spend big bucks.. Now behave yourself and baske in the glory..you lucky dog! ;)
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Drew, I think you miss the point completely of Mendo's post. He was just sharing his experience at a Marquis meeting. He only mentioned those things in the context of his amazement at how things are done differently...
If his point was to stir up argument, he would have mentioned the specifics.
And this post would be on FIRE now..and his point would be burried all together! He was just sharing how Marquis did their meeting...and how beneficial that it was to be able to wet test the competition and see some of the manufacturing differences. It was about a TYPE of sales/product information meeting...
Why are you so agressive lately? You should be so happy...you have a wonderful, beautiful tub. And to top it off, you won it with great creativity
and humor...not like the rest of us who had to digest all this info and spend big bucks.. Now behave yourself and bask in the glory..your lucky dog! ;)
I'm thrilled.
Aggressive? Maybe. But while I'll wait to see Mendo respond and explain what his point was and why he thought I was bashing, I'll reitrerate that of all the things to say when opening a topic, he mentioned several issues that came across as questionable practices by other unnamed companies, and when he was aksed to explain them, he laughed. Once again, what's the point of doing that?
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Boni,
On the contrary, this is a consumers forum. If he has some [glow]facts[/glow] to share, he should share them. Not just drop inuendo.
Loosen,
Your list of innovations sound like industry jargon. I am sure they are improvements, but what are they in plain language? What would they mean to a consumer trying to learn about spas?
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You are correct. If the marketing department is monitoring, it will be fixed. :P
If not, I will bring it to their attention, fully crediting Gomboman! 8-)
The least you can do is send him a duck!
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If the FACTS are relevant to anything, maybe they are worth the effort...Lets take the example of the Velcro...It may sound funny(strange)...some manufacturer uses Velcro in their tubs...but it may be perfectly fine for the application in that tub. I use Velcro for all kinds of stuff.. That super Velcro can stick kids to a wall! ;D. It just doesn't seem to fit with high pressure pumps, and hot tub stuff...Just for the record, my Marquis has VELCRO..inside of it ....I put it there and it functions exceptionally well for what I am using it for.
It just seems like you are trying to encourage Mendo to make this into a product bashing..and what purpose would it serve? I don't believe the intention of Marquis at that meeting was to point out the "crap" about the other products, instead to see differences and give the attendees a chance to try competetor products. If they came away feeling good about what they sell, great...
Just like customers who like to get positive information and feel reinforsed about the selection that they made.
For me the comment that Mendo made about the HK40's really hit home because that was exactly what I was needing from a hot tub..deep tissue massage. That was one of the reasons that I selected my tub.
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Drew,
Bonni pretty much nailed it. Go back to the beginning of the thread and my original post. No innuendos were dropped; I simply said there were differences if someone wants to read something into it than fine. I was pressed for something more direct so I pointed out 2 things as an example but never said who they were, not to be mysterious but to be respectful as my intent was never to stir debate in fact if you read the first post, my reason for even sharing the experience I had was that there was a interesting thread about spa ratings going on and since I just spent 3 days with five of those mentioned I just made reference to it. I personally thought your reference to restaurants and the you used it was a poor example and did not apply in the way you used it here ( JMO ); I did not go and make any claims. People can forever debate the merits of certain ways to do something and what they feel is the better way but sometimes facts are facts and you can debate if they have merit but that is different from casting doubt about the accuracy of the point of reference or statement.
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Drew,
Bonni pretty much nailed it. Go back to the beginning of the thread and my original post. No innuendos were dropped; I simply said there were differences if someone wants to read something into it than fine. I was pressed for something more direct so I pointed out 2 things as an example but never said who they were, not to be mysterious but to be respectful as my intent was never to stir debate in fact if you read the first post, my reason for even sharing the experience I had was that there was a interesting thread about spa ratings going on and since I just spent 3 days with five of those mentioned I just made reference to it. I personally thought your reference to restaurants and the you used it was a poor example and did not apply in the way you used it here ( JMO ); I did not go and make any claims. People can forever debate the merits of certain ways to do something and what they feel is the better way but sometimes facts are facts and you can debate if they have merit but that is different from casting doubt about the accuracy of the point of reference or statement.
Ok. I guess I read something into it.
YEs, I was pushing you to make claims. That's what I was frustrated about. I want claims.
Welcome back mendo. I'll up my meds and we'll be cool.
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Boni,
On the contrary, this is a consumers forum. If he has some [glow]facts[/glow] to share, he should share them. Not just drop inuendo.
Loosen,
Your list of innovations sound like industry jargon. I am sure they are improvements, but what are they in plain language? What would they mean to a consumer trying to learn about spas?
You are correct....the list was entirely comprised of features....and not benefits. As we sales types know....customers but benefits. At this moment i am considerably busy....but will at a later time attach the benefit to each of the the features listed....this is not a problem.
I don't typically follow threads so closely...but I sensed a particular inaccuracy in what was being stated regarding the Marquis. I felt compelled to respond.....anyway off to work....
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Good to see Drewstar is medicated, again. Now we just have to wait for Jim to get those tech numbers so we can get to the bottom of this jet flow question once and for all and Mendo, please, next time include a spa from each brand represented here so we don’t leave anyone out! ;)
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You are correct....the list was entirely comprised of features....and not benefits. .but will at a later time attach the benefit to each of the the features listed....this is not a problem.
I don't see what purpose interjecting a bunch of Coleman features, or the benefits associated with them will accomplish here. Just last week someone tried that with another brand, with the predicitable backlash that resulted in a new thread about hostility.
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I'm still confused about ties wraps and velcro and why he'd mention them, but when asked to provide info just laugh,
Honetlys, I'd like to know. I thought it was a legit question. And I'm wondering why a dealer and vetren poster would mention he got to wet test several competetive brands but not go into any analsys about them frustrates me. As I think it would be good subject matter.
But I'll take my meds and realize that my questions can be construed by some as bashing.
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You are correct....the list was entirely comprised of features....and not benefits. As we sales types know....customers but benefits. At this moment i am considerably busy....but will at a later time attach the benefit to each of the the features listed....this is not a problem.
I don't typically follow threads so closely...but I sensed a particular inaccuracy in what was being stated regarding the Marquis. I felt compelled to respond.....anyway off to work....
Please point out the inaccuracy. Exactly where is it? Funny thing that seems to be overlooked or not understood, In order to move water from areas within a spa and to target them to direct body parts you need two things, one jets that are built for that hi flow and two a THREE way valve, other spas only have a two way valve, Marquis patented their three way valve. Now once again you can discuss and debate the merit of this. but to debate if this is true or not is simply a waste of time as this is how it works and is not open for debate, to do so would be much the same way as continuing to debate a V10 Ford motor and Honda Civic 4 cylinder and the Honda person claiming that there engine displacement size is the same, you can talk about many things about them if you want but size is not one of them. As for Marquis and the way they choose to deliver therapy you can argue that others makers do it better or their design is better but to claim the Marquis can not deliver therapy in this way or that others do the same is not true as the tools needed to do so are not there for them. Just one more example: If I said Marquis had a jet that worked just the in very same way as the Moto Massage we all know it would be untrue and to continue to debate it just because I made the claim would be silly.
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Bonni, just know this you are not going to get 160 gallons of water per minute that is concentrated to target one body area for deep therapy from anyone other than Marquis. I mean no one else is even close.
i do disagree with you there......many many are close if not exactly the same......
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I'm still confused about ties wraps and velcro and why he'd mention them, but when asked to provide info just laugh,
Honetlys, I'd like to know. I thought it was a legit question. And I'm wondering why a dealer and vetren poster would mention he got to wet test several competetive brands but not go into any analsys about them frustrates me. As I think it would be good subject matter.
But I'll take my meds and realize that my questions can be construed by some as bashing.
Drew,
Do you honestly believe that if I said what I thought about others makers spas in a wet test, it would have much credibility or if I said this is how so and so makes their spas it would not be seen as me bashing? It really just hit me that consumers here have much more freedom to express themselves more openly than we do as dealers as very few would doubt our ability to be objective.
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i do disagree with you there......many many are close if not exactly the same......
It very easy to cast doubt and much easier when you just throw out there without ANY point of reference. Please go back and read again. I shared many times and how and why Marquis does this and why its different from others. Others have only said I do not think it’s true but offer NOTHING of substance to dispute it. And once again you can argue its merits but not the way it’s done.
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OK...I have an idea :o. My sister needs a tub and I am trying to get her to buy one. Loosenup you tell me which tub you think will deliver the same therapy as the HK40's in my Epic and my sister and I will go wet test that tub. This will be a realistic and true test because she also loves the therapy of my deep therapy seat...and she would settle for no less. She is in a different market area so there may be more dealers available and we wouldn't be wasting anyone's time...we would be objective and realistic...How's that?
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Drew,
Do you honestly believe that if I said what I thought about others makers spas in a wet test, it would have much credibility or if I said this is how so and so makes their spas it would not be seen as me bashing? It really just hit me that consumers here have much more freedom to express themselves more openly than we do as dealers as very few would doubt our ability to be objective.
I agree with you that dealers, like it or not have much more responsiblity here. But yes, I think a dealer could post a review of wet tests and be taken as credibale. However, to do so would require you to point out the benifits and flaws of everyproduct, including the one you represent. I doubt you (or anyone) would. But it begs the question then, why bring it up then at all. Of all the things to talk about, you bring up somehting that would get people asking, but can't answer. I would have found something else to post about.
why no discuss the velcor and tie wraps? That's somehting that might be less subjectivie? And if you can't, once again why bring it up? Mendo., I have a lot of respect for you, but I find mentioning something and alluding to it without discussing it, is kind of "catty" . That's all. :)
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Drew,
Thats fine but remember I was asked a question and I thought provided an answer that was short and not pointed at any maker nor did I even mention what tubs where there. So my answer was to share an example without degrading anothers product.
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it was your quote that i took acception to.....it casts doubt. but i agree that you have a threeway diverter valve and it moves water in new and different ways, at least for marquis. However, my spas have pumps the work at 160 gpm and can be isolated to four jets and specific parts of the body. Now by my calculations if you divert water at 160 gpm through 4 jets those jets are accomodating 40 gpm. I don't believe this is uncommon. The threeway diverter valve is unique to Marquis, this is fact and true. I think....as I read into your writing, that the marquis by virtue of this valve and its new jet pillor delivers greater jet strength than a Moto-Massage. Again since i am intrepreting your writing i could be wrong as rain.
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OK...I have an idea :o. My sister needs a tub and I am trying to get her to buy one. Loosenup you tell me which tub you think will deliver the same therapy as the HK40's in my Epic and my sister and I will go wet test that tub. This will be a realistic and true test because she also loves the therapy of my deep therapy seat...and she would settle for no less. She is in a different market area so there may be more dealers available and we wouldn't be wasting anyone's time...we would be objective and realistic...How's that?
wet test a 706. 705, M6 or 481
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Coleman right?
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it was your quote that i took acception to.....it casts doubt. but i agree that you have a threeway diverter valve and it moves water in new and different ways, at least for marquis. However, my spas have pumps the work at 160 gpm and can be isolated to four jets and specific parts of the body. Now by my calculations if you divert water at 160 gpm through 4 jets those jets are accomodating 40 gpm. I don't believe this is uncommon. The threeway diverter valve is unique to Marquis, this is fact and true. I think....as I read into your writing, that the marquis by virtue of this valve and its new jet pillor delivers greater jet strength than a Moto-Massage. Again since i am intrepreting your writing i could be wrong as rain.
I have no clue how you made the relationship between the moto massage and our therapy pillar and thought I was making that comparison but none the less. If am not mistaken you can correct me if I am wrong but the highest jet that Coleman uses has a flow of 16gpm. As are many jets in the industry the Hk40 from Marquis is a patented jet. and also and this is again what makes the Marquis different you can move that 160 gpm from the upper to lower body or move it up and down your legs on some models.
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Drew,
Thats fine but remember I was asked a question and I thought provided an answer that was short and not pointed at any maker nor did I even mention what tubs where there. So my answer was to share an example without degrading anothers product.
We're not going to talk about ties wraps and velcro, are we? :-[ ;)
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lol...nope not with me....as again It would not be seen in any good light..... :)
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That's OK, Drew..I'll show you my Velcro...and it's in my Marquis tub.
What is so bad about ties and Velcro? IF they work in the application that they are being used for?
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...If am not mistaken you can correct me if I am wrong but the highest jet that Coleman uses has a flow of 16gpm. As are many jets in the industry the Hk40 from Marquis is a patented jet...
I don't know if this applies in this situation, but most liquid handling equipment that I work with delivers "X gpm at Y pressure." In essence it is a function of the narrowest point in the system, which in this case, I would guess is the jet orifice. Think of a garden hose running free vs one with a jet nozzle. They may both deliver the same gpm, but one has a much higher pressure. I've never looked at the jets in question, but I would expect the HK40 jet to have a larger opening, allowing it deliver 40 gpm at a low pressure. I would suspect that the Coleman 16gpm jet would be capable of delivering 40 gpm, but at 2.5Y pressure. Is it possible that you both are correct about being able to deliver 160 gpm through 4 jets, but that the question is which one is useful, due to comfort issues associated with high pressure concentrated on a small area?
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I am betting that Reese is right on this...the key here is the comfort of all that water pressure and how it is concentrated.
I also bet that you won't find a single hot tub customer who can honestly relate to the technical aspects any of this GPM stuff, they just want something that makes them feel good...who cares how the manufacturer accomplishes it! ;)
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Mendo can you please just tell Drew that the Velcro is doing what it is supposed to do? Not that there are better methods, but just that whatever it is doing in whoever's tub...it is doing the job... ;D
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I am betting that Reese is right on this...
I also bet that you won't find a single hot tub customer who can honestly relate to the technical aspects any of this GPM stuff, they just want something that makes them feel good...who cares how the manufacturer accomplishes it! ;)
This is really getting out of hand! ;) ;D Was your ;) a nod to the thread where we first locked horns, with one of us wanting technical info, while the other said "focus on the subjective"? If so.. Touche'! :)
As far as no customer relating to the technical aspects, have you forgotten Master Vinny?
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Wow - starting to get lost in the math.
I think the hot ticket is to try these tubs wet. As Mendo will attest, you can enjoy all sorts of combinations of jets.
You will find high-pressure jets which will feel great, and low-pressure jets which will feel great. You will find seats with two or four mega-jets which feel great, and you will find seats with 17 small jets which feel great.
But not all of those seats will feel great to everybody, and sometimes doing a comparison will result in a person liking one set of jets and not liking another.
Just like horsepower numbers on a brochure mean nothing, number of jets, even GPM flow rates do not guarantee that a given tub will be more suited to a person's likes or dislikes.
I have sold spas with oversized plumbing, huge jets, and high-volume low-pressure jets. They were great. I have also sold spas with high-pressure low-volume jets, and they are great as well.
Let your backside decide.
8-)
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That's OK, Drew..I'll show you my Velcro...and it's in my Marquis tub.
What is so bad about ties and Velcro? IF they work in the application that they are being used for?
I don't know. That's why I asked!!
I don't know who's using them or for what. I have no idea if it's a good idea, a bad idea or just different. I was hopping to find out, but I guess we can't as it's too dangerous to speak about here. Dealers would loose thier crediablilty, customer would start bashing, and the whole danm thing would all come undone. Mass chaos would ensure. It's better we forget and just sit here and hope that none of our spas have these, unless it's a good thing, then I hope that we indeed do have them.
I just wanted to say though that I am not bashing and that this forum is great! The bestest! Very crediable.
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I don't know if this applies in this situation, but most liquid handling equipment that I work with delivers "X gpm at Y pressure." In essence it is a function of the narrowest point in the system, which in this case, I would guess is the jet orifice. Think of a garden hose running free vs one with a jet nozzle. They may both deliver the same gpm, but one has a much higher pressure. I've never looked at the jets in question, but I would expect the HK40 jet to have a larger opening, allowing it deliver 40 gpm at a low pressure. I would suspect that the Coleman 16gpm jet would be capable of delivering 40 gpm, but at 2.5Y pressure. Is it possible that you both are correct about being able to deliver 160 gpm through 4 jets, but that the question is which one is useful, due to comfort issues associated with high pressure concentrated on a small area?
BINGO, Thank you that is Marquis story Hi Flow/ low pressure and from filtering to Therapy this the thought in their design. I am not sayings its better ( I do think so) but that is how they choose to offer their spas and as other makers choose a different way. Please note as it was stated in the opening post of this thread in our testing it was acknowledged that for the person who's backyard any of these spas were in they would most likely be happy but that side by side the differences are much more discernible.
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I totally agree with Chas but I'd also like to point out the obvious. Sometimes we neglect to look at history and I strongly suggest that any of you questioning the motives of Mendo, spend a day or two looking back at his almost 2000 posts and see if you can find anything derogatory or questionable.
The man is as neutral as they come and not once have I seen him bash any one product or speak poorly about anyone. Give the guy a break for crying out loud! ::)
Steve
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I don't know. That's why I asked!!
I don't know who's using them or for what. I have no idea if it's a good idea, a bad idea or just different. I was hopping to find out, but I guess we can't as it's too dangerous to speak about here. Dealers would loose thier crediablilty, customer would start bashing, and the whole danm thing would all come undone. Mass chaos would ensure. It's better we forget and just sit here and hope that none of our spas have these, unless it's a good thing, then I hope that we indeed do have them.
I just wanted to say though that I am not bashing and that this forum is great! The bestest! Very crediable.
Drew,
I would say that the makers who use Velcro to hang the insulation on should post on it since they know who they are and can offer a explanation of how it works.
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Reese, I'd never forget Vinny, he is my friend and I respect his offerings here. OK, so he likes the technical stuff...but it is usually because he is looking to do some kind of experiment. .. ;)
And no touche, pure coincidence! My retention time is not that long.. :o ;D
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...any of you questioning the motives of Mendo, spend a day or two looking back at his almost 2000 posts and see if you can find anything derogatory or questionable. The man is as neutral as they come and not once have I seen him bash any one product or speak poorly about anyone.
I agree as far as this thread is concerned, but perhaps you are the one who needs to do some reading. ;) I seem to recall some pesky Bullfrog and Master Spa issues, among others.::)
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slooow down there, Master issue were about shows and were long ago and were documented from others. Bullfrog I think if anything If taken in total would be easily be seen as publicly being of the opinion that they are a pretty decent spa.
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LOL! ;D I wasn't trying to hijack this thread and make it a dissection of your previous posts! ;) I appreciate that Steve is a personal friend, I just thought his defense of you was a little over the top, and indicated that he hadn't read/remembered some of your less graceful posts. We all have them. :)
FWIW, I thought in this thread you were right to try to limit the discussion to the training and what salespeople can learn from the chance to try out competitors side by side. Although a lot of us would love to know what you observed... obviously from the reaction to the examples you offered when pressed -- if you had posted everything you discerned, we'd really have a mess. :o
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LOL! ;D I wasn't trying to hijack this thread and make it a dissection of your previous posts! ;) I appreciate that Steve is a personal friend, I just thought his defense of you was a little over the top, and indicated that he hadn't read/remembered some of your less graceful posts. We all have them. :)
Well at least ya got my point and didn't take it word for word er anything! ::) ;)
And yes, some have more than others... :D
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wet test a 706. 705, M6 or 481
Bonnie PM me when you and your sister are ready to try out the Colemans listed by losenup. I love my 706 and I'll share some of my observations with you befor you wet test.
That being said, I still think wet tests are different from one person to the other even with tubs within the same manufacturer. While Bonnie may still prefer her spa to any other, her sister may find another brand more comfortable for her body size and family dynamic. The real key is to find the spa that everyone in the family likes.
I think Marquis had a great idea by doing the comparisions. But to really make it fair they should of included more models in each line like they did with their own. And they should have had veteran, experienced, salespeople or reps from every different manufacturer showing their spas and touting the benifits of that brand.
Everone who's been in this crazy business for any length of time would love to open up and disect the competition first hand. But untill a totally unbiased, independent, testing organization takes this task on, we will forever feel that results are somewhat tainted.
Knowing what I do about the two brands I sell, it would be easy for me to make one more desirable than the other during a wet test. Simply by not teaching the consumer everything they need to know about the operation of a spa could leave them with very different opinions.
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Instead, what about the concept of having competing brands there without the sales hype and just letting people try the different spas to form their own opinion based on a wet test? WHATTA CONCEPT! ;) We should do that for our customers!! :)
Hey Mendo, how many people that were at those meetings jumped ship? ;D
Steve
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Steve,
The testing was great as it was at your own leisure. It was very much like going to someones house for a barbecue and finding 10 spas to jump in and try. No one tired to influence you and no one said oh hey check this out. As with any maker there were some dealers who sold multi lines and they are the ones who could really offer some insights.
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I missed alot. :(
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Instead, what about the concept of having competing brands there without the sales hype and just letting people try the different spas to form their own opinion based on a wet test? WHATTA CONCEPT! ;) We should do that for our customers!! :)
Hey Mendo, how many people that were at those meetings jumped ship? ;D
Steve
Come on Steve don't tell be that when you were selling Beachcomber and had wet testers in you didn't teach them how to get the most out of their experience. And you can't tell me that every dealer there was a seasoned soaker. It never ceases to amaze me how many dealers/salespeople don't own a hot tub, rarely soak in one and don't take care of spas in any other enviroment than inside the showroom. Big big mistake if you ask me.
Me thinks you sound a bit like a Marquis rep ;)
Oh and the only way it would be like a backyard party with 10 hot tubs to try is if refreshments of different colors and flavors were included..
Here's a question...Did any of the Marquis dealers attending prefer another brand?
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You and me's always understand each ofther! :D
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/termandhappy.jpg)
Termiy
Term it's time for your computor to crash and lose all those pictures you have of us. :-[
Mendo explain this three way valve to me. How many seats in the spa does it effect?
If the Epic has two 2.5HP pumps can you direct both pumps to one seat?
If it's three ways does that mean you can direct both pumps to two seats?
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Spahappy, the easiest way to see what Mendo is talking about is to view the trizone on Marquis website.
http://www.marquisspas.com/flash/tri_zone_therapy/popup_flash_trizone_therapy.asp
It is interactive and you can move the diverters to see how the flow changes. What you can't do is to see the many in-between settings.
I am still working on my sister's husband but she told me tonight she hopes that he will soon agree as she is really having some serious problems with her back from an auto accident. When she gets to the wet testing part, I will definately encourage her to try Coleman (and I will compare also because I want to feel the same amount of water delivered differently) She knows my tub and she also has visited my dealer, but as the good sister that I am, I would encourage her to look for a tub that suited her needs best....that might be a Coleman, it might be a HS or Jacuzzi...or a D1 (I believe they are the dealers that are closest to her). She particularly liked the feel of the deep massage of the jets that Mendo mentioned..that is how this all started.
Thanks for your help and I will definately connect with you and loosenup ;)
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The Vanguard listed on the website is correctly listed as a HP model as it has 2 jet pumps and 150 sq ft of filtration. The Vanguard Classic model is correctly listed as an EE as it has 1 jet pump and 120 sq ft of filtration. Hope that helps! - SpaHottie
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The Vanguard listed on the website is correctly listed as a HP model as it has 2 jet pumps and 150 sq ft of filtration. The Vanguard Classic model is correctly listed as an EE as it has 1 jet pump and 120 sq ft of filtration. Hope that helps! - SpaHottie
I believe the Mother Ship changed the Vanguard to an EE on the website. I thought the Vanguard was an EE due to the smaller pumps--1.65 HP. The 2.0 HP and 2.5 HP models are listed as HP versions. Also, the Vanguard has 150 square feet of filtering versus 325 square feet (Tri-X Filters) for the HP models
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Wow - starting to get lost in the math.
I think the hot ticket is to try these tubs wet. As Mendo will attest, you can enjoy all sorts of combinations of jets.
You will find high-pressure jets which will feel great, and low-pressure jets which will feel great. You will find seats with two or four mega-jets which feel great, and you will find seats with 17 small jets which feel great.
But not all of those seats will feel great to everybody, and sometimes doing a comparison will result in a person liking one set of jets and not liking another.
Just like horsepower numbers on a brochure mean nothing, number of jets, even GPM flow rates do not guarantee that a given tub will be more suited to a person's likes or dislikes.
I have sold spas with oversized plumbing, huge jets, and high-volume low-pressure jets. They were great. I have also sold spas with high-pressure low-volume jets, and they are great as well.
Let your backside decide.
8-)
A great thread to avoid...
Once again, Chas rises to the top while a couple of others languish on the bottom debating useless "facts".
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A great thread to avoid...
Once again, Chas rises to the top while a couple of others languish on the bottom debating useless "facts".
Now there is some real insight and a post that really shows your contribution to the board. Perhaps you can shed some more of your constructive wisdom on other threads that you don't care for.
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I really don't see anything constructive in this thread other than some very biased opinions on Marquis. Don't get me wrong...unlike your thoughts regarding my choice of tubs, I feel Marquis is an excellent product. You missed both my point and Chas' point...forget all the hype about GPM and such...it's all personal based on feeling.
And, oh, it was probably a good thing that you deleted that snide post directed at me personally...I was beginning to think Steve might want to retract his previous post regarding your refusal to speak badly of anyone.
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I think we both share a very similar opinion of each other. And it would be my guess that’s its not very flattering.
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I really don't see anything constructive in this thread other than some very biased opinions on Marquis. Don't get me wrong...unlike your thoughts regarding my choice of tubs, I feel Marquis is an excellent product. You missed both my point and Chas' point...forget all the hype about GPM and such...it's all personal based on feeling.
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When you talk about missing the point, I am not sure if anyone has ever missed it more than you and your spa. I have never spoken about your tub. The fact is I have always said the product may in fact be very good. I have always spoken about the marketing ethics of your maker and you have never seemed to understand that.
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Wow, Mendo you are pumped! That is such a cool feeling when one comes back from sales/product training. The fact that your company looked so closely at the other spas was a great idea. Actually, I would have to call it a real common sense move simply because knowing and learning the most about ones competitors is "common sense". I noticed you did not spend a lot of time talking about the Sundance in your thread. Yes, I know what you said at the start of the thread! However, I was curious as to what model you tested and what your thoughts were. How is the construction, etc?
During this seminar, how much time was spent on learning how to offer "awesome customer service"? There seems to be a huge lack of that up in my part of the country in the spa business? Was customer service even discussed? Looking forward to your answers! Thanks!
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This training event was the best I've ever been to. Marquis purchased a HotSpring, Jacuzzi, Sundance, and Master for its dealers to try out. I thought it was a pretty ballsy move. It was nice to actually try these spas out that I've been selling against for so long. Of course I liked the Epic more than anything, but out of the 4 others I liked the HotSpring the best. As far as product quality, there were 3 with fairly good quality and one was pretty poor, not hard to guess which one! We also got to go on a tour at the factory and saw some new spas/colors options that are about to come out. I'm excited! All in all it was a good event, even the food/beer was good.
Well, Mendo, since you and Markee are cut from the same cloth, ask him which of the four was "pretty poor, not hard to guess which one". See, it's a comment like this that is "pretty poor". And, in this thread anyway, it's very easy to see the attitude that there are four "chosen" manufacturers that produce quality products while the quality of the rest..the MS's, Colemans, Jacuzzis and others...fall well short of the level set by the chosen few.
Every retailer here should feel his product is best of breed...if he/she doesn't, they shouldn't be in the business. The best retailers will convey this in a way that doesn't alienate or step on toes...and there are many on this board like this. Unfortunately, not all are as tactful.
Enjoyment of a tub is measured by feelings, not by GPM, jet count, BHP or any other measure. The clientele of this board have a high level of expertise and awareness...both retailers and owners alike. I don't believe that many here put much credence in the importance of statistics/measures over feelings when it comes to hot tub therapy...a good thing to remember when promoting one's chosen brand of spa.
And, BTW, thank you for the offer in your PM of calling you to speak directly about any or all of this but, as I did 3 years ago, I feel that would not be in the best interest of either of us. I will be glad to share any feelings/information I have right here in this forum.
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I have not seen any product bashing, misrepresentation, poor, or rude comments in this entire thread. I think most would agree with that statement. I have seen some some of a "If my product was not reviewed or discussed that's not fair" mentality though! I do hope this thread does not take a left turn! I really wanted my questions answered. Sorry for chiming in on this little personal issue it's just someone wants to keep this public so I'm commenting.
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Well, Mendo, since you and Markee are cut from the same cloth, ask him which of the four was "pretty poor, not hard to guess which one". See, it's a comment like this that is "pretty poor". And, in this thread anyway, it's very easy to see the attitude that there are four "chosen" manufacturers that produce quality products while the quality of the rest..the MS's, Colemans, Jacuzzis and others...fall well short of the level set by the chosen few.
.
Well talk about a man grasping at straws you quote another person and than tie it to me and say we are cut from the same cloth, does the same standard you hold others to apply to yourself ? I would guess it would be fair to assume you are someone who is not a hypocrite, that the very assumption that you applied to me and being tied to another person than I would assume it would be fair to hold you to the same measuring stick, and I than take that since over the years when you have acted as the company apologist for the maker of your spa, than all of the deceitful and misleading and law breaking ways that have dogged them must also apply to you and be a part of who you are. I mean since you want to lump me in with another, than the very same standard must apply to yourself as well. If you can go back read a few things I think you will find that Markee and I have different way about us. And I must ask, are you now the Lady Cleo of the forum. are you using the force to read between the lines, when someone else (again not me) but you read thier statement and say ,“its not hard to guess” and again whatever Markeee opinion holds would be his and not mine, you need to direct quotes to those who said them and not to someone who knows them..
Let me add that I am not saying genuinely that those things apply to you but would that it be just as a ridiculous assumption for me to make of you in the same way you are tying me to another. You may in fact be a "Mother Teresa" of the world for all I really know.
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Windy,
Sorry to jump on you here but I have to say something...
I've talked to many, many dealers and salespeople that tried the spas at class and they must all be mindless drones unable to think for themselves as they all say just about the same thing that Markee and Mendo are saying.
The fact is that no one was manipulated in any way, no one was forced to test nor were the tests controlled. People tried them at their leisure and formed their own decision.
You passionately defend your purchase, you've had a good experience with your spa and you do the forum as a hobby.
We relish in an opportunity to tryout the completion along side our spas because we put our jobs, ethics and for some even our homes on the line for this industry. Everything that I own is somehow connected to my store as with many other dealers.
Mendo is one of those dealers also and remember, he spent his own money and time to fly across the country and learn more about the industry. The truth is that he spent more this week to increase his understanding of spas then you have all year and maybe in your lifetime. He gets up every morning and his entire day is absorbed in the spa industry, it's the last thing he deals with every night and consumes just about every minuet in between.
If 20 industry pros tell me that one brand that they all tested performed poorly compared to the others they all tested I'm willing to think there is something to those comments. Further more if these same people that look at how many brands are built on a daily basis all comment on being surprised at how simply that brand was made compared to the others I would take as a professional opinion.
Mendo,
Thanks for your input, thanks for taking the time to share your experience at class and thanks for all those calls and emails questioning yours and other brands. I know you don’t just call me but spend much of your time trying to make sure you carry the best products for your customer.
Windy,
Set in your spa, have a martini and enjoy the fact that it’s all worked out great for you with your spa!
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Like I thought, no answer to my question. (prior to my last post) This thread has turned. Thats what I really dislike about forums. Someone always drops a soapbox and someone always jumps on it!
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I must have missed your question. If I can be of any help please let me know.
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Wow, Mendo you are pumped! That is such a cool feeling when one comes back from sales/product training. The fact that your company looked so closely at the other spas was a great idea. Actually, I would have to call it a real common sense move simply because knowing and learning the most about ones competitors is "common sense". I noticed you did not spend a lot of time talking about the Sundance in your thread. Yes, I know what you said at the start of the thread! However, I was curious as to what model you tested and what your thoughts were. How is the construction, etc?
During this seminar, how much time was spent on learning how to offer "awesome customer service"? There seems to be a huge lack of that up in my part of the country in the spa business? Was customer service even discussed? Looking forward to your answers! Thanks!
Ok I found it,
I believe it was the Optima; it was the model that is 2nd from their top. I can only say that at our testing it seemed to be about an even spilt between the Sundance and Hot Springs. Sundance has a great reputation and they build a nice product. As with any product including Marquis there are things I wish were different but Sundance overall is a solid choice.
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Mendo, thanks for that! But, what about, "During this seminar, how much time was spent on learning how to offer "awesome customer service"? There seems to be a huge lack of that up in my part of the country in the spa business? Was customer service even discussed?"
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Mendo, thanks for that! But, what about, "During this seminar, how much time was spent on learning how to offer "awesome customer service"? There seems to be a huge lack of that up in my part of the country in the spa business? Was customer service even discussed?"
Very much so, but it comes down to the individual dealer. I mean what we value as people and what standards we hold ourselves to are the only one that at the end of the day that we will follow.
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Enjoyment of a tub is measured by feelings, not by GPM, jet count, BHP or any other measure. The clientele of this board have a high level of expertise and awareness...both retailers and owners alike. I don't believe that many here put much credence in the importance of statistics/measures over feelings when it comes to hot tub therapy...a good thing to remember when promoting one's chosen brand of spa.
And, BTW, thank you for the offer in your PM of calling you to speak directly about any or all of this but, as I did 3 years ago, I feel that would not be in the best interest of either of us. I will be glad to share any feelings/information I have right here in this forum.
I have a question for you when things like, moto massage, no bypass filtration, flux jets, max pro jets, micron filtration. Get mentioned where are you? Why again the double standard ? If you go back and read my first post, it was simply about and because of spa rating in another thread, I made no mention of any makers, I was asked a few questions and answered them in a somewhat vague manner with the hope of not turning any of this into, what in a few cases it has become.
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It appears that points are missed and this thread is aimlessly meandering around misconceptions and assumptions plus a smattering of name calling. I'll stand by my comments for those who care to attempt understanding. Otherwise, I have nothing more to contribute to the thread.
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Windy,
Set in your spa, have a martini and enjoy the fact that it’s all worked out great for you with your spa!
Great suggestion...will do!
Hope everything is well with you, bubba stu 8-)
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It appears that points are missed and this thread is aimlessly meandering around misconceptions and assumptions plus a smattering of name calling. I'll stand by my comments for those who care to attempt understanding. Otherwise, I have nothing more to contribute to the thread.
Lets see you come and degrade the thread, which for the most part was just good spa talk. You than want to quote other people but direct it at me and when called out on it, you take the road of a victim who sole intent was to provide a positive contribution of information. Once again the standards you want to hold others to seem not to apply to yourself. ( Think Al Gore ).
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( Think Al Gore ).
Not to go off on a political tangent but that's funny!!
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Lets see you come and degrade the thread, which for the most part was just good spa talk. You than want to quote other people but direct it at me and when called out on it, you take the road of a victim who sole intent was to provide a positive contribution of information. Once again the standards you want to hold others to seem not to apply to yourself. ( Think Al Gore ).
Noted. I'll let others decide for themselves. In the meantime, keep wallowing.
BTW, though you were attempting to insult, thank you for the association with Al Gore.
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Al Gore! No flippin way! How could any body in the spa industry be a Gore supporter? All those nasty nasty spa chemicals going into my street drain every 3 or 4 months. Why, I alone must be responsible for at 1/100000000000th of the 1.4 degree increase we have suffered through on this planet. :'(Not to mention the dangerous and appalling chemical laced steam curtain that rises from my tub with every cover opening I have ever done. :-X That also must make me responsible for another 1/10000000000th. And the vinyl protectant! Oh don’t get me started! :-[
I can only hope that Al baby does not glance downward from his plush private jet that is burning more jet fuel and using more natural resources (whoops, I digress). That he glance down and see my horrid hot spewing chemical vat!
No it can't be! I would think there are more Hillary supporters in this biz! (Please! Say it aint so) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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OK. Now we digress into politics.
Shoot the messenger. Ignore the message.
Like Al Gore or not; think he is a hypocrite if it makes you happy. He would be the first to tell you that his message of incovienent truth is not about him, not about democrats or republicans, not about partisan politics. It is a moral issue.
Of course climate change is real. And modern human technologies influence it. In the greater scheme of things hot tubs have almost no impact. There are many more things each of us can do other than giving up our hot tubs and destroying our livlihoods. >:(
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Bill,
LOCK IT QUICK BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND!
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/hostileanne.jpg)
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Bill,
LOCK IT QUICK BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND!
I'm watching!!!! Now thinking is another matter. Too tired.
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Noted. I'll let others decide for themselves. In the meantime, keep wallowing.
BTW, though you were attempting to insult, thank you for the association with Al Gore.
LoL......It must your Lady Cleo thing again that you can read into something that was not there.....actually I was pointing out, that Al and you seem to be a lot alike. Al wants to to tell others how to live, while he is burning more juice at his house in a month than the average home burns in a year. And you want to be able to tie people together while excusing yourself from the same standards. I agree with you on one thing, I think most reading this can figure for themselves whose been consistent.
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I'm watching!!!! Now thinking is another matter. Too tired.
no reason to lock this up, just pay attention who jumped in at the end to degrade something that all in all was a positive discussion.
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As long as nobody calls someone a name that they have to go rehab for.
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Bill,
All I am know is this, someone comes in degrades a thread, uses a quote that someone else said but points it at me instead of the person who actually posted it and wants to skate on by like that is somehow reasonable or its appropriate, I appreciate guys like Term, and Chas, Hot tub Dan, but just because they sell Hot Springs I would not say they were all cut from the same cloth. And would certainly not use quote from one of them and try in put into the mouth of another. Thats only for the weak.
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I don't know what you think Bill or Mendocino! I think comparing one with Al Gore is really really REALLY scary! ;D The whole humans are causing global warming "theory" is scary though too :-X I know I have had to drop my hot tub temp up here this last winter because it's been to darn hot! 8-) I can only imagine what this summer holds! In fact the ND legislatures want to take the North from North Dakota. Gosh darn global warming!
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Maybe on the BS section Global can get kicked around. But for those who are following the news there is much being discussed about the other side of Global warming this week.
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Bill, All I am know is this, someone comes in degrades a thread, uses a quote that someone else said but points it at me instead of the person who actually posted it and wants to skate on by like that is somehow reasonable or its appropriate...
We must be due for the quarterly "Lighten up, Toughen up, It's almost St. Paddy's day" lecture from our esteemed moderator. ;) :)
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OK. Now we digress into politics.
Shoot the messenger. Ignore the message.
Like Al Gore or not; think he is a hypocrite if it makes you happy. He would be the first to tell you that his message of incovienent truth is not about him, not about democrats or republicans, not about partisan politics. It is a moral issue.
Global warming is a moral issue?
huh. I thought it was about man's impact on the enviroment, not about good and evil, the baby Jebus and Chas.
::)
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Bill,
All I am know is this, someone comes in degrades a thread, uses a quote that someone else said but points it at me instead of the person who actually posted it and wants to skate on by like that is somehow reasonable or its appropriate, I appreciate guys like Term, and Chas, Hot tub Dan, but just because they sell Hot Springs I would not say they were all cut from the same cloth. And would certainly not use quote from one of them and try in put into the mouth of another. Thats only for the weak.
:'(
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As if there isn't enough controversy going on with this thread...Reese comes along and makes reference to St. Paddy's Day...Well...technically, it is St. Patricks day so I say..St. Patty's Day... ;D ;D..Now lets fight!! ;D ;D
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Food for thought: Based on stone cold facts:
The age of the Earth is 4.5 billion years! Man or Man kind has been around 40 or 50 thousand years. There is no such proof that Man has ever impacted the enviroment in that incredible short periopd of time. None! Now unless Al baby is 1 to 3 billion years old and can speak from his early existence and tell us that yes indeed Man has warmed the planet. I'm not buying it!
Now to keep this hot tub related, The water in my tub is 98 days old. When I first started posting on this thread a lot of your guys told me I was nuts to drain and re-fill my tub every 30 days, which I was doing. I'm here to tell you, you were correct! ;D
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As if there isn't enough controversy going on with this thread...Reese comes along and makes reference to St. Paddy's Day...Well...technically, it is St. Patricks day so I say..St. Patty's Day... ;D ;D..Now lets fight!! ;D ;D
Technically his name was Saint Padraig, the patron saint of Ireland. No good Irishman would go by "Patty". :) Perhaps I should have suggested St Urho instead, since his day comes sooner. ;D
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Technically his name was Saint Padraig, the patron saint of Ireland. No good Irishman would go by "Patty". :) Perhaps I should have suggested St Urho instead, since his day comes sooner. ;D
Padraig is Galic for Patrick. It's a perfectly good translation. :-?
/taught by hard hittin, god fearin' irish priest and nuns.
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How did we end up in Ireland? Since we are on the subject..I will be going to the Philadelphia Flower show on Friday...and awesome event and the theme this year...Ireland..I'll be lookin' for the Good Saint me self there...So I'll be sure to ask him his name preference..
http://www.theflowershow.com/home/index.html
;D ;D
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How did we end up in Ireland? Since we are on the subject..I will be going to the Philadelphia Flower show on Friday...and awesome event and the theme this year...Ireland..I'll be lookin' for the Good Saint me self there...So I'll be sure to ask him his name preference..
http://www.theflowershow.com/home/index.html
;D ;D
Your insistence that using that gaelic name for a Irish saint is incorrect took us to the Emerald Isle! ;) ;D Flowers are good, they take in carbon dioxide and give off oxygen. Should help offset Campsalot's carbon footprint, so he can keep his head in the sand a little longer. ::)
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Food for thought: Based on stone cold facts:
The age of the Earth is 4.5 billion years! Man or Man kind has been around 40 or 50 thousand years. There is no such proof that Man has ever impacted the enviroment in that incredible short periopd of time. None! Now unless Al baby is 1 to 3 billion years old and can speak from his early existence and tell us that yes indeed Man has warmed the planet. I'm not buying it!
"There is no such proof that Man has ever impacted the enviroment in that incredible short periopd of time."
So there was never a hole in the ozone layer due to CFCs and other chemicals?
And it's also not true that with the ban of CFCs that the hole has partially closed? I imagine you believe Al Gore and his documentary are just conjecture as well.
I know, it's all about the word "proof" and since it's scientific studies that relay this information anyone can choose to not believe it or not sice you can't flop it on their lap.
I believe we've impacted the environment, maybe you disagree. I believe in dinosaurs, maybe you disagree. I believe that the Cubs aren't really cursed (they've just just mostly sucked), maybe you disagree.
You believe what you want. I'll believe what I want.
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"
. I believe that the Cubs aren't really cursed (they've just just mostly sucked), maybe you disagree.
oh no...I agree they mostly have just sucked.... ;)
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Food for thought: Based on stone cold facts:...
And to think a couple of pages ago, you were lamenting that on internet forums, "someone always drops a soapbox, and someone always gets up on it". ::)
I'm curious: have you read or watched "An Inconvenient Truth", or would that just get in the way of your disregarding global warming science? Even the Bush administration, which spent its first term espousing attitudes like yours, now implies that global warming is fact. They just insist on calling it "climate change" and adopting half-measures instead of addressing it effectively. :P
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maybe since global warming seems to have taken over the thread it should be moved....
Reese
there are some folks at MIT who would disagree with you...I am not taking a position just stating that there is much to the issue than Al's movie,which I have heard advocates for the position of Global warming state that the movie while they are happy about the attention it draws to the issue are uncombable with some its content, that basically there are some major inaccuracies.
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Al Gore's a con man, pure and simple. Lies, deceit, obfuscation...tools of his trade and his ilk.
Republicans too, for that matter.
Terminator
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Al Gore's a con man, pure and simple. Lies, deceit, obfuscation...tools of his trade and his ilk.
Republicans too, for that matter.
Terminator
Spoken like a spa salesperson! ;)
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let me get us back on topic...
Marquis sucks
Hot Springs sucks
Jacuzzi sucks
Sundance sucks
if i left your brand out it's because it sucks
please restart the debate on hot tubs
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Oh yeah, Al Gore sucks! ;D
So do Republicans!
So do Democrats!
So do the gigantic and ancient volcano's that spewed more CFC's than mankind ever!
So do soapbox salesman!
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And I got in trouble for putting up my daughter's letter about a missions trip she is excited about.
Sheesh. ;D ;D
8-)
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A great thread to avoid...
8-)
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OK, back to the thread. I'm curious what Marquis will do with the used spas? I may be interested in one of the left overs. :)
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OK, back to the thread. I'm curious what Marquis will do with the used spas? I may be interested in one of the left overs. :)
Rumor has it that the Anti-Gore camp will sponsor a major spa burning reminiscent of the old book burning days... ;)
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Bill,
All I am know is this, someone comes in degrades a thread, uses a quote that someone else said but points it at me instead of the person who actually posted it and wants to skate on by like that is somehow reasonable or its appropriate, I appreciate guys like Term, and Chas, Hot tub Dan, but just because they sell Hot Springs I would not say they were all cut from the same cloth. And would certainly not use quote from one of them and try in put into the mouth of another. Thats only for the weak.
I never thought I would be quoting myself but taking a cue from that good old dog above. Whats the matter dog you got no one else you want to quote and than attach it to me. You got anything more than just weepy cartoon you want to reply with. I mean call me out on what I said but don’t try and stick me with someone else word. Or is that a point that you just miss.
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Not this matters to many but I am going to take a break from this board for a while. I wish you all many long and Happy soaks, even you WSDog. If I don't make in before Easter than Let be the first to wish you and your family a warm and blessed day.... :)
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I for one will miss you.
Have a good break, recharge, come back full of the joy of life.
Works for me.
8-)
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Have a nice break 101. I'll miss your posts until you come back. Take care and don't stay away too long........
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Mendo, I feel bad. :(I hope that I didn't contribute anything on here to make you leave. And I am sorry about the Irish stuff...I know it didn't pertain to anything about your class...I think we were trying to make this thread lighten up a bit away from the controversy that was brewing.
You are an important contributer here..I know I have depended on you so many times..and I enjoy your posts and honesty. You have so many friends on here who sincerely enjoy talking to you.
I just wonder if some of the guys on here would have the guts to get in each other's faces and say some of the things that they post on here. It is a whole different ballgame when you are face to face with someone...maybe that is how we all should post ...like we were talking to each other in person...I think the agressive nasty behavior would stop..
OK Where's Anne when I need her?.....
So again, Mendo, I am sorry that you feel the need to take a break. I hope you spend your time selling tons of tubs and share your great information with your customers...who hopefully will appreciate you as
much as many of us do. ;)
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And happy soaks to you too, Mendo. Life is just too short to worry about the trivial. 8-)
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The intersting thing is , "St Patrick" isn't irish.
He was an English child taken into slaverly by the Irish.
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Enjoy your break Mendo! I think a lot of us need one.
Been a lot of folks that have left over the last year: JMcD, soakin, RobRoy, perogie, hymbaw, HotTubMan, Augustus, DPS, Gulf Coast Customer Service, Steve, salesdvl, Big Spa Fairy, stabone, drewski, BoxCar Willie, spaman, Stacy Diego, Buckwheat Jones and some others I'm probably overlooking.
Terminator
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Life is just too short to worry about the trivial. 8-)
You might want to repeat that a few times as well Windy One.
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Life is just too short to worry about the trivial.
It's too bad that quote wasn't written somewhere in the first 5 pages... :-X
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You might want to repeat that a few times as well Windy One.
Actually, the trivial I was referring to was reflective upon me...sorry you didn't get it.
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Actually, the trivial I was referring to was reflective upon me...sorry you didn't get it.
It could be read either way but I'm glad u meant it as a 2-way street.
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We must be due for the quarterly "Lighten up, Toughen up, It's almost St. Paddy's Patty's Urho's day" lecture from our esteemed moderator. ;) :)
In the spirit of all the self-quoting... 8-)
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It could be read either way but I'm glad u meant it as a 2-way street.
Agreed.
8-)
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Holy cow, did I miss a lot.
Term, thanks for representing me a few pages back- someone needed to help this crowd chill out.
Boni- I'm here for you Baby! You couldn't have said it better. Face to face, I bet these guys are weenies.
And lastly, anyone who says that humans have not have a HUGE impact on our environment and atmosphere is clearly delusional and simply contributing to our species' nasty habit of short sightedness and selfishness. We're preparing our own extinction, and taking the rest of the world with us.
Have a great night, everyone!
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Holy cow, did I miss a lot.
Term, thanks for representing me a few pages back- someone needed to help this crowd chill out.
Boni- I'm here for you Baby! You couldn't have said it better. Face to face, I bet these guys are weenies.
And lastly, anyone who says that humans have not have a HUGE impact on our environment and atmosphere is clearly delusional and simply contributing to our species' nasty habit of short sightedness and selfishness. We're preparing our own extinction, and taking the rest of the world with us.
Have a great night, everyone!
Sounds like it's time for you and Campsalot to get face to face... ;)