Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Ehizzle on December 09, 2006, 12:37:40 pm
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Ok so I have this strange desire to know exactly why something works the way it does, not just that it does. We all know that Ozone is not a stand alone sanitizer. Please don't crucify me, Ozone worshipers. Not one ozone manufacturer stands behind that faulty believe. What I want to know is why? I have seen sites that say it sanitizes most of the water but still needs some chlorine to finish it off. I have seen sites that say, "ozone can only oxidize after it has become a chloramine." I have even seen one site say that Ozone sanitizes but doesnt oxidize. Which is hosh posh.
So, anyone know the actual capability of Ozone and why it still needs chlorine?
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Ozone is a contact sanitizer/oxidizer. If a molecule of O3 comes in contact with something it destroys it (plastics too). Once O3 is used up or dissipates it no longer has any effect on anything.
In drinking water temps I believe the life span of ozone is about 20 minutes, so it's hanging around in the water possibly bumping into ((actually there is a ionic charge to O3 and it is electrically attracted to a substance) keep in mind that the distance we are talking about is very small, probably microns or smaller(nanometers)). In drinking water, the water companies add chlorine to kill any organisms that might start to grow when the ozone is depleted.
In spa water the life of O3 is 20 seconds. Everything else is the same.
I hope this explanation helps!
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I'm not sure if this answers your question but I found this from:
http://www.askalanaquestion.com/ozonators_for_spas.htm
Ozone (O3) is a form of oxygen (O2) and is a powerful oxidizing agent that can help control microorganisms, destroy organic contamination, build up byproducts, dead algae and organic debris. It is not a complete spa or hot tub sanitizer, in the truest sense, because ozone does not remain in water for long periods of time. There must be a backup sanitizer such as: chlorine, bromine or ionization. An Ozone Purification System will reduce the quantity of the backup sanitizer required for proper sanitation. The devices that generate Ozone fall into two categories: UV or Corona discharge. Commercial spas and other high bather usage installations should utilize a corona-discharge type of unit, as it is capable of producing the greater quantities of ozone that these situations require. With ozonation, the water should be maintained in the typical manner.
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Great responses. The only thing about those aspects that has had me confused is this. If you have an ozonator in a spa on 24/7 it shouldnt matter how fast it dissapates right. Or, do you think that because ozone is so strong you arent able to put enough ozone into the spa to where it would handle everything in the contact chamber before it dissapates. That I guess would makes sense. I guess its kinda a hard thing to describe or really see in your minds eye.
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Great responses. The only thing about those aspects that has had me confused is this. If you have an ozonator in a spa on 24/7 it shouldnt matter how fast it dissapates right.
That was what I was pondering as well.
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How much ozone are you putting in the spa? SERIOUSLY, how much? A lot of people say to add 1 tsp of chlorine for each person when you exit the spa. So, HOW MUCH ozone do you put in? How much ozone does your ozonator put in in a 24 hour period? How do you measure how much ozone is actually being absorbed into the water (cause if it aint absorbed, it aint doing much good)?
There's a lot of different ozonators, that produce quite varying amounts of ozone. There's many different ways ozone is introduced into the water. Some morte effective than others.
When talking about chlorine, everyone talks in specific measurements. People frequently ask or advise on how much chlorine to put in, do think there might be any importance to how much ozone is put in as well?
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What Doc says is true.
Other than from spa ozone maker sites, real info is based on drinking water ozonation and that technology is different than spa ozone.
First off they use 100% O2 and high power 6,000 volts, spas use 21% (air is 21% O2) and I don't believe even a CD ozonator generates high voltage. They use 40 foot contact chambers and reverse flow technology. But probably the most important is they monitor it all through the various stages and adjust output to get the needed amount of O3 to be effective.
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What I do know is that you need 250ppm of Ozone for it to be effective. The only Ozonator I know specific amounts of is the Hot Spring Freswater 3 which produces 600-900ppm, which I'm pretty sure is higher than most. Also, since you need 250ppm of Ozone, alot of the people who have UV Ozonators and haven't changed the bulb just because it still gives off light are using a useless product. I also think that putting an Ozonator on a spa that doesnt run 24/7 is worthless, since it only lasts about 20 minutes. Then those same people think they dont need to add anything else and they end up with a big unsanitized mess.
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What I do know is that you need 250ppm of Ozone for it to be effective.
Most ozonators are rated in grams per hour that they produce.
parts per million of what? Are you talking of the air as it exits the ozonator?
"The air exiting the ozonator needs to be a minimum of 250ppm of ozone to be effective" (????)
Can I ask how you know this? I've never, in over 25 years, heard this before (seriously, while I'm not a proponent of ozone, I'm always looking for info and willing to learn new things.)
Is there any relevance as how much of that ozone is actually absorbed into the water??
Considering ALL the various industries that use ozone, are there different methods of achieving absorption, and are some more (much more) effective than others? Which is the most/least effective?
Vinny...... not only pure O2, but also zero moisture content and cooled.
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What I do know is that you need 250ppm of Ozone for it to be effective. The only Ozonator I know specific amounts of is the Hot Spring Freswater 3 which produces 600-900ppm, which I'm pretty sure is higher than most. Also, since you need 250ppm of Ozone, alot of the people who have UV Ozonators and haven't changed the bulb just because it still gives off light are using a useless product. I also think that putting an Ozonator on a spa that doesnt run 24/7 is worthless, since it only lasts about 20 minutes. Then those same people think they dont need to add anything else and they end up with a big unsanitized mess.
"What I do know is that you need 250ppm of Ozone for it to be effective" - Where did you get this info from? I've never found anything in my research (it's been a while) saying an actual amount. Most ozonator companies from what I've found give output in Grams per hour ... I don't know what's that in PPM.
There are some "facts" that are questionable.
"Hot Spring Freswater 3 which produces 600-900ppm" - is this dissolved or produced. If whatever ozone produced doesn't gets dissolved it isn't being used. How do you know that this amount is being introduced? What is the test equipment used to find this out in a given tub?
"alot of the people who have UV Ozonators and haven't changed the bulb just because it still gives off light are using a useless product" - it may be true but some CD units need a chip changed every so many 1000's of hours. My UV bulb is rated at 9,000 hours, another unit I'm looking at is 20,000 hours. The useless product info - see above.
"I also think that putting an Ozonator on a spa that doesnt run 24/7 is worthless, since it only lasts about 20 minutes." - Ozone in a spa only lasts about 20 seconds, not 20 minutes. I would also venture to say that many people don't use ozone 24/7, all tubs without circ pumps and have ozone operate this way. Also, based on what I've said before and knowing that ozone only lasts 20 seconds - how effective can it really be. If it doesn't bump into someting, it won't do anything.
"Then those same people think they dont need to add anything else and they end up with a big unsanitized mess" - I agree 100%. I think that if you treat O3 as a an auxillary system and treat the tub chemically as most people do, this will not be an issue.
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What I do know is that you need 250ppm of Ozone for it to be effective.
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Vinny...... not only pure O2, but also zero moisture content and cooled.
I forgot about the moisture content and didn't know about the cooling.
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Sorry Vinny,
I'm not sure how much of the 600-900ppm is actually absorbed in the water.
I'm not sure how the grams per hour and ppm convert.
I know that corona chips also need to be changed. I was just using Uv as an example. I'm sure you've experienced the customer that says, "I've had my spa 20 years and the Ozonator light still works"
I wasn't trying to make blatent inarguable statements. My whole point is to get feedback. Thats why I started this post. The 250ppm number I got is from Hot Spring. I don't know where they got that number, but I have never seen them state a fact that wasnt factual when it comes to this kinda stuff. You may dissagree Im just saying what I know. Or, think I know. ;)
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Ehizzle,
No need to apologize! I am just a nerdie techie on this forum, not a spa professional.
I thought I remembered you being a spa professional but I wasn't sure. I personally am on the negative side of ozonation, not to say it doesn't do anything but I don't think it does much. I also know that my ozonator doesn't produce much ozone not because it's UV but the company's ozonators don't produce much ozone.
My view on spa ozoation may change once I replace it with a stonger unit but that's down the road. I only use ozone 8 hours a day and have had it on for 24 hours a day and didn't see much difference. My thought on it (and it could be wrong) is after I soak at night and add chlorine I have the ozonator kick on and do it's thing for 4 hours, 12 hours later it does it again. If it is as strong as proponents say it is then it's killing any nasties (keeping in mind what I "know" about ozone) during the first on period then oxidizing any nasties that it and chlorine killed 12 hours later. Of course it's not selective like that but that's my thinking. I also think that since it only lasts 20 seconds and it needs to bump into something to be effective - how much of it is going to waste, I would think 90% of it. So instead of having it running 24/7 I run it 8 hours.
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Well alot of it does just off-gas. The amount of Ozone that gets mixed in the water has to do with the amount of time its in contact with water and how small the bubble are. Thats why having a mixing chamber of whatever is helpful. The less distance between the ozonator and the outside air, the less Ozone absorbsion. Also the smaller the boubles the better.
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Ozone is measured in milograms most ozonators are 25mg 50mg ect,ect.
Jacuzzi for instance offers 35mg,50mg, and for there proclean system we offer a 250mg ozonator. All in all I dont know how many parts per million that is but I do know its effective.
As far as contact with water the longer the contact the better, most manufacturers inject the ozone in via a mazzi injector then directly into the spa which the bubbles float to the surface and get trapped under the cover.
Jacuzzi runs the warm water out of the heater injects the ozone through a bohls injector, slightly different than a mazzi injector around the back of the spa, back to the front then into the spa so there is very little off gas. D-1 is the only one I know of that claims no off gas, Hot springs I am not sure.
The funny thing with ozone is give the average consumer 1 year with there spa and normal chemicals,after a year you could probably unhook the ozonator with out them knowing and they most likely wouldnt even notice a difference. Some opinions may vary and there is always the guy that would see a difference of course.
Personally I like ozone used with the nat 2 cartridge and a bit of chlorine after use. keep it simple and the people will cheer.
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I definately agree with your simple strategy. Altough I cant keep my curiousity at bay.
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I have no idea how relevant this is, but it makes sense to me to look at ozone from a molecular level, and to think about what "oxidation" really is. College chemistry was a long time ago, so if any chemists out there want to chip in, please help me out here! Here's how I remember things, and I dont promise absolute accuracy, and I'm too lazy to go look it all up now, but I will later....
Here's my train of thought: ozone is O3. Oxygen is stable as O2. When you add the third molecule of oxygen, it is unstable, and "wants" to convert back to O2. This is why ozone dissipates: 2 O3 --> 3 O2. Back to plain 'ol stable atmospheric oxygen. As O3, ozone steals electrons- that is oxidation. On a cellular level, that is very damaging, whether you are a bacteria or a human cell. I believe that one molecule of O3 can only oxidize "once" (ie, perform one reaction where an electron is donated) So the effectiveness of the ozone would seem to me to depend on a number of things, like:
Proximity of oxidizable things to O3
Concentration of O3 compared to concentration of oxidizable stuff
Temperature
So I agree with Dr Spa that I dont see how ppm is relevant. PPM of what? And if every molecule of O3 is either going to dissipate or oxidize something, then there should be no "minimum" concentration of O3 needed to perform oxidation, it just becomes a question of whether very minute levels of oxidation are meaningful to sanitize a tub.
As for the relationship between ozone and chlorine- is there really one? Ozone doesn't need chlorine to work, and chlorine does not need ozone to work......I would guess that there is nothing synergistic about using the two together, its just that the ozone makes the chlorine's job a little easier, right?
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Anne's logic and theory are both correct. A Molecule of ozone O3 is going to oxidize one molecule of mineral or nutrient, or it will sanitize a single molecule of bacteria or virus and then it reverts back to O2 and is no longer an oxidizer or sanitizer. It has effectivly done it's job and no longer exists. But, that is the job of the ozonator to continue to generate and introduce additional molecules of O3
Ozone presence for all practical purposes, can not be measured in a hot tub and chemicals can. Scientifically, ozone can be measured, yes, but for the practical application of testing the presence of ozone in Hot Tub water is beyond the scope of practicallity.
This leads to the controversy of those who are pro and con to the ozonation purification of Hot Tub water. If chemical applications can be measured and proven to be present and ozone can not, then no one can really prove the argument that ozone is truely effective, thus the controversy.
There are those of us in this thread that are pro ozone as a sanitizer / oxidizer, and then again there are those of us who are chemical supporters and lay claim that the presence of ozone ALONE can not be proven to be active and present as a sanitizer. Thus, if only chemicals can be measured and proven to be effective, they then support the concept that chemicals are the ONLY verifyable method of treating and sanitizing Hot tub water.
Ozone does in fact work sanitizing and oxidizing. How it is applied and the period of time that it is used and present are equally as effective as a chemical, BUT, IT IS NOT MEASUREABLE.
Still yet, the water still looks absolutely great as it is visually clean, clear and, if one were to test for bacteria or viruses, safe and sanitary without bacteria or viruses present in the water.
Something must be good about Ozone to create such controversy from both the knowing and the unkowing on this subject.
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Ozone is measured in milograms most ozonators are 25mg 50mg ect,ect.
Jacuzzi for instance offers 35mg,50mg, and for there proclean system we offer a 250mg ozonator. All in all I dont know how many parts per million that is but I do know its effective.
Huh? What? What does that all mean???? A 35mg ozonator? Does this mean that it produces 35mg of ozone an hour? A year? Over it's entire life? Over my entire life (hopefully longer than an ozonator)?
As far as contact with water the longer the contact the better
Only to an extent. "Contact" doesn't guarantee absorbtion into the water, and if it isn't absorbed, it's not doing anything.
Anne's logic and theory are both correct. A Molecule of ozone O3 is going to oxidize one molecule of mineral or nutrient, or it will sanitize a single molecule of bacteria or virus and then it reverts back to O2 and is no longer an oxidizer or sanitizer. It has effectivly done it's job and no longer exists. But, that is the job of the ozonator to continue to generate and introduce additional molecules of O3
Ok, I'm going back to where I began. How much ozone do we need to sanitize what needs to be sanitized in the water? How do we measure that we've put in enough ozone, and enough has been absorbed into the water, to do the required sanitizing?
There are those of us in this thread that are pro ozone as a sanitizer / oxidizer, and then again there are those of us who are chemical supporters and lay claim that the presence of ozone ALONE can not be proven to be active and present as a sanitizer. Thus, if only chemicals can be measured and proven to be effective, they then support the concept that chemicals are the ONLY verifyable method of treating and sanitizing Hot tub water.
That's it? You either believe in ozone, or sellinmg chemicals? Crap, I don't fit into either of those.... What does that make me (DON'T ANSWER THIS BROOK or DREW). ;D
Still yet, the water still looks absolutely great as it is visually clean, clear and, if one were to test for bacteria or viruses, safe and sanitary without bacteria or viruses present in the water.
Do you believe that clear water is bacteria free water?
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Do you believe that clear water is bacteria free water?
One does not need to believe that clear water is bacteria free water, you can test for the presence of bacteria.
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That's it? You either believe in ozone, or sellinmg chemicals? Crap, I don't fit into either of those.... What does that make me (DON'T ANSWER THIS BROOK or DREW). ;D
Doc, I just checked your web site and sell sell both chemicals and Ozononators.
What does that make you, a believer or a profiteer.
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Like I said, I don't fit into either.
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There is no doubt that ozone works under the right conditions just as chemicals do. But would you say that 1PPM chlorine will make water safe without testing it, I would feel safer putting 5 PPM chlorine, waiting 20 minutes and test it to see what the chlorine residue reads. At this point in time there is no easy way to test for ozone effectiveness.
That is the problem with anything that needs to be verified - without proper test parameters nothing can be guaranteed as to it's effectiveness.
The only evidence that I have read is Vermonter's account in his tub and basically he advocates chlorine with help from ozone and N2. If I take him for face value on a message board - he owns a lab that can test this stuff - I believe that chlorine (or any chemical sanitizer) is really the way to go.
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Businessman.
One last question for ya, how many people that have ozonators, and rely on them for sanitation, regularly test for bacteria levels and know how to interpret the results of the tests (the main reason I don't offer a home bacteria test kit, with I do have available to me)?
Doc, I bow to your prowess as a businessman that will profit in either case, and I do not dispute you, nor do I wish to debate you. You profit on both sides of this discussion, which has no arguable claim over one or the other.
I think we all need to be in a profit making business to afford the basic things we need in life and the other things we desire. The fact that you are an attorney by education and make your living in this industry must mean that it is more profitable to you.
Hovever, if my water is presumed to be clean and clear as the eye can see, and I can in fact choose to test for bacteria, does that mean ozone is not a reliable oxidizer / sanitizer?
Admittidly, one can test for bacteria, as well as for chemicals, however the test is meaningless one hour later.
I do not wish to challenge your sincereity, as we both apply knowledge, logic and reasoning, but we do appear to be on opposite ends of the teeter toter, which simply means that we both bring balance to life. ;)
God Bless the voice of reason and understanding. That is of course, assuming one believes in God.
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Doc, what happened to your post? Did you modify it, or delete it?
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An attorney? Moi? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
if my water is presumed to be clean and clear as the eye can see, and I can in fact choose to test for bacteria, does that mean ozone is not a reliable oxidizer / sanitizer?
Well now I'm more confused. How does presumption and being able to choose to test for bacteria make water bacteria free?
I think you are misunderstanding me. All I'm asking for is actual evidence that ozone is a "reliable" sanitizer.. And, that the method in which it's used in a spa is as well. Sure, the marketing and sales pitches are there, but so far, no one has been able to produce any actual evidence. Until I'm swayed to believe, from actual credible evidence, I will continue to ask questions.
If this angers you, I apologize (and suggest getting a grip), if this makes me a bad person, then so be it.
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IMO, ozone in a hot-tub may be like Ben-Gay on a sore muscle. It smells good, and feels like it must be doing something, but in fact... the main benefit is in believing it will make things better. 8-)
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IMO, ozone in a hot-tub may be like Ben-Gay on a sore muscle. It smells good, and feels like it must be doing something, but in fact... the main benefit is in believing it will make things better. 8-)
Naw....I don't believe this, we know ozone kills bacteria, and a contact camber is designed to make ozone contact bacteria. So we have done our part to make the two come together. Relying on O3 to sanitize your water is a mistake and everyone knows this. But using it to supplement a good sanitation regimen is not a bad thing.
Say you dump in some chlorine to kill x amount of bacertia in your spa, All gets killed except a few little bacteria molecules........but you went away and can't catch those little molecules, heck you don't even know they survived, but your ozone catches them, chases them down, and kills them. Or more likely they stumbled upon one another and fought to the death of them both!
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Tman,
Your analogy of stumbling upon them is probably a correct senario. We're talking small distances here probably in nanometers ( that's 10 to the -9 power) or smaller which is equivilent in that world as the distance of NYC is to Chicago in ours.
There's no question that ozone applied correctly is a powerful oxidizer/sanitizer but is a spa's ozonator applying ozone correctly?
On Doc's site years ago Vermonter posted a response about an effective kill with chlorine. He posted that the contact time and exposure time in minutes when multiplied together needs to be 2400 (I think this is the figure) in order for scientists to believe a 99.99% effective kill.
How much ozone is in the spa's water? Without knowing this one can't assume that ozone will bump into anything. I think that the ozone's closest proximity to anything is at the injector port. Looking at the injector in my tub there seems to be a brown residue on the exit side of the injector which is "proof" that the injector is doing something.
I'm thinking that as inefficient as a spa's ozonator is based on other industry's use of ozone. The more ozone being produced at the injector the more likely it'll bump into something at the injector. Maybe they meet in the hose leading to the contact chamber or in my case the tub (remembering that we are talking nanometers) but I'm thinking in terms of a vast universe in terms at a molecular level, it'll be like an asteroid hitting the Eath - it may happen but very infrequently.
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Have there been any unbiased experiments/studies conducted for spa ozone systems in the past that we can refer to? If so, I would like to read them. I'm surprised this topic is so controversial.
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Tman,
Your analogy of stumbling upon them is probably a correct senario. We're talking small distances here probably in nanometers ( that's 10 to the -9 power) or smaller which is equivilent in that world as the distance of NYC is to Chicago in ours.
There's no question that ozone applied correctly is a powerful oxidizer/sanitizer but is a spa's ozonator applying ozone correctly?
On Doc's site years ago Vermonter posted a response about an effective kill with chlorine. He posted that the contact time and exposure time in minutes when multiplied together needs to be 2400 (I think this is the figure) in order for scientists to believe a 99.99% effective kill.
How much ozone is in the spa's water? Without knowing this one can't assume that ozone will bump into anything. I think that the ozone's closest proximity to anything is at the injector port. Looking at the injector in my tub there seems to be a brown residue on the exit side of the injector which is "proof" that the injector is doing something.
I'm thinking that as inefficient as a spa's ozonator is based on other industry's use of ozone. The more ozone being produced at the injector the more likely it'll bump into something at the injector. Maybe they meet in the hose leading to the contact chamber or in my case the tub (remembering that we are talking nanometers) but I'm thinking in terms of a vast universe in terms at a molecular level, it'll be like an asteroid hitting the Eath - it may happen but very infrequently.
And there ya go. This is exactly why no matter how an Ozone system is sold, we have the best this or the best that, ours cost 1000 bucks because it's the best.....blah blah...it still comes down to one thing, we or them have no idea if one O3 molecule will come in contact with one bacteria molecule and destroy each other. So it should never be relyed on to sanitize nothing, including a 75 million dollar city water O3 system, so, dump a little chlorine in there.
A 54 dollar O3 generator will not save you 54 dollars worth of dichlor in the year or so it lasts, but what is your time worth if you don't have to go out to your tub a couple extra times a week to add dichlor because your not using your tub?
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A 54 dollar O3 generator will not save you 54 dollars worth of dichlor in the year or so it lasts, but what is your time worth if you don't have to go out to your tub a couple extra times a week to add dichlor because your not using your tub?
And in my limited experience of 1 tub with ozone I still have to go out there a few times a week to add chlorine other wise I have a bacteria laden tub. Funny thing is as the tub gets more and more bacteria you would think the ozone becomes more efficient at bumping into it ... oh well, the mystery of life wasn't solved again! ;D
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A 54 dollar O3 generator will not save you 54 dollars worth of dichlor in the year or so it lasts, but what is your time worth if you don't have to go out to your tub a couple extra times a week to add dichlor because your not using your tub?
And in my limited experience of 1 tub with ozone I still have to go out there a few times a week to add chlorine other wise I have a bacteria laden tub. Funny thing is as the tub gets more and more bacteria you would think the ozone becomes more efficient at bumping into it ... oh well, the mystery of life wasn't solved again! ;D
Seems like the problem may be that you are not using your tubs enough, if you have to go out just to add chlorine! Simple fix for that! :D
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IMO, ozone in a hot-tub may be like Ben-Gay on a sore muscle. It smells good, and feels like it must be doing something, but in fact... the main benefit is in believing it will make things better. 8-)
Naw....I don't believe this...
Didn't like that analogy, how about this one I came up with, in church while daydreaming throught the sermon. :-/
Ozone is like religion. No one seems to be able to prove scientifically it works (again, in a hot-tub environment), and what we do know about it makes it seem unlikely that it would do much. In spite of that, a lot of people are sure it does work, because they have seen what a difference it has made in their tub (or at least what they believe it does, because somebody told them...) Seems like a leap of faith to me. ;)
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Have there been any unbiased experiments/studies conducted for spa ozone systems in the past that we can refer to?...
I've tried in vain to find anything that addresses this topic in a scientific manner. The closest is the tests that Vermonter talked about where he measured bacterial growth in his one tub. The lack of information is one of the reasons I am skeptical about its benefits in a hot-tub. If the ozone unit manufacturers, and the tub manufacturers that sell them, could prove a benefit, it would be easy for them to find a grad student that would be willing to do some research.
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IMO, ozone in a hot-tub may be like Ben-Gay on a sore muscle. It smells good, and feels like it must be doing something, but in fact... the main benefit is in believing it will make things better. 8-)
Naw....I don't believe this...
Didn't like that analogy, how about this one I came up with, in church while daydreaming throught the sermon. :-/
Ozone is like religion. No one seems to be able to prove scientifically it works (again, in a hot-tub environment), and what we do know about it makes it seem unlikely that it would do much. In spite of that, a lot of people are sure it does work, because they have seen what a difference it has made in their tub (or at least what they believe it does, because somebody told them...) Seems like a leap of faith to me. ;)
I like that analogy, but I'm pro-ozone, and agnostic. Some could be offended by such an analogy, because of the disparity of the importance between the two, but I think it works really well, and I understand that you're not comparing the two, just using the theme for reference.
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IMO, ozone in a hot-tub may be like Ben-Gay on a sore muscle. It smells good, and feels like it must be doing something, but in fact... the main benefit is in believing it will make things better. 8-)
Naw....I don't believe this...
Didn't like that analogy, how about this one I came up with, in church while daydreaming throught the sermon. :-/
Ozone is like religion. No one seems to be able to prove scientifically it works (again, in a hot-tub environment), and what we do know about it makes it seem unlikely that it would do much. In spite of that, a lot of people are sure it does work, because they have seen what a difference it has made in their tub (or at least what they believe it does, because somebody told them...) Seems like a leap of faith to me. ;)
I like that analogy, but I'm pro-ozone, and agnostic. Some could be offended by such an analogy, because of the disparity of the importance between the two, but I think it works really well, and I understand that you're not comparing the two, just using the theme for reference.
I like this analogy also, I do use Ozone and have tryed the same routine without ozone, I purchased a new unit and installed it. So......some of those brainless O3 molecules must be bumping into some of those even more brainless bacteria molecules.
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Here's another question..... just adding confusion here- bacteria are not all created equal, and I'd imagine that some are more resistant to oxidative damage than others, so the "amount" of ozone that it takes to kill one bacterium is probably not the same as another species. So there is one more variable (one probably impossible to measure) in how effective your ozone will be!
I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!! ;)
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I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!! ;)
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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Here's another question..... just adding confusion here- bacteria are not all created equal, and I'd imagine that some are more resistant to oxidative damage than others, so the "amount" of ozone that it takes to kill one bacterium is probably not the same as another species. So there is one more variable (one probably impossible to measure) in how effective your ozone will be!
I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!! ;)
Right after a thunderstorm in the summer nice!!!
No, I noticed a difference without ozone, it seemed the water was harder to take care of and we all know I am a lazy water guru. I like to add chlorine when I use the tub only, and I may not use the tub for a whole week (I know I need to use the tub more) but I have had 3 tubs in the last 12 years so I have soaked 4-5 times a week plenty. But when my UV O3 generator burned out I noticed, more between uses than in any quantity adjustments on chlorine. So it is an investment worth it for me to save me some time.
But anyone who thinks they purchased one to save some cost on sanitation may have been mislead into thinking that way.
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Here's another question..... just adding confusion here- bacteria are not all created equal, and I'd imagine that some are more resistant to oxidative damage than others, so the "amount" of ozone that it takes to kill one bacterium is probably not the same as another species. So there is one more variable (one probably impossible to measure) in how effective your ozone will be!
I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!! ;)
Right after a thunderstorm in the summer nice!!!
No, I noticed a difference without ozone, it seemed the water was harder to take care of and we all know I am a lazy water guru. I like to add chlorine when I use the tub only, and I may not use the tub for a whole week (I know I need to use the tub more) but I have had 3 tubs in the last 12 years so I have soaked 4-5 times a week plenty. But when my UV O3 generator burned out I noticed, more between uses than in any quantity adjustments on chlorine. So it is an investment worth it for me to save me some time.
But anyone who thinks they purchased one to save some cost on sanitation may have been mislead into thinking that way.
Tman,
I more along the lines with you. It's been my experince that a quality Corona Discharge 03 unit runnin 24 7 works. It makes water care easier for me. like you, If I'm not in the tub for several day, my water stays clean and clear without a problem.
I completly disagree with the folks saying it's like relegion, and there's no proof either way if it is effective.
That's absolutely hogwash. O3 is a proven sanitizer. With a proper delivery method, folks using it expereice using less sanitizer, and cleaner clearer water without having to add addiitonal sanizters between uses.
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Here's another question..... just adding confusion here- bacteria are not all created equal, and I'd imagine that some are more resistant to oxidative damage than others, so the "amount" of ozone that it takes to kill one bacterium is probably not the same as another species. So there is one more variable (one probably impossible to measure) in how effective your ozone will be!
I'm starting to wonder if I paid a whole lot of money for something that makes my tub smell nice!!!!! ;)
Right after a thunderstorm in the summer nice!!!
No, I noticed a difference without ozone, it seemed the water was harder to take care of and we all know I am a lazy water guru. I like to add chlorine when I use the tub only, and I may not use the tub for a whole week (I know I need to use the tub more) but I have had 3 tubs in the last 12 years so I have soaked 4-5 times a week plenty. But when my UV O3 generator burned out I noticed, more between uses than in any quantity adjustments on chlorine. So it is an investment worth it for me to save me some time.
But anyone who thinks they purchased one to save some cost on sanitation may have been mislead into thinking that way.
Ozone works good for some, better for others, and not at all for some, it is largely dependent on the coach or support team (the dealer). If the coach is a proponent of ozone and understands it, his instruction and guidance can and will make a difference. If the coach is a cynic of ozone and doesn't believe much in it's abilty or understand it's operation, it is most likely you will not achieve better performance levels.
A customer had been experiencing persistent water clarity problems on his brand new spa for more than 6 months that just should not be . The spa manufacturer would not let us change out the CD ozonator under warranty because the indicator light indicated that it was working and you could hear the "buzz". They sent us a natures 2 and a new filter, "free of charge" for the customer.
Our customer was extermely frustrated with his experience and understandably so. If we were cynics, then there is your proof the presence of ozone can not be tested for and is therefore not reliable. But, because we "believe" differently, and are proponents of ozone, we knew the water quality should be different than what it was.
We made several trips to monitor their water as they followed our prescribed procedures. We endured their frustration and persisted in the interest of our customer. We changed out the ozonator at our expense and within a week the difference in his water was remarkable. The CD unit was sent back for evaluation and has never credited to our account. That too should make us cynics.
IF ozone has no value, is so controversial, or is meaningless in water management, why is it sold and why do people continue to replace them over the past 25 + years of it's application in this industry? Which BTW, is much more widely used and accepted today than ever before becoming "standard" equipment leaving the factory even by HS.
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WOW y'all wrote allot while I was gone.
I had a thought while catching up on reading your comments. Again as I said before, I do not know where HS got this number.
Anne, I really like your first thought on this topic. However, I would tend to disagree with the "no minimum" required for effective sanitation. If we can take what seems to be the majority opinion that says, "Ozone sorta just bumps into whatever bacteria happens to be in its short lifespan at close proximity." If we believe this than the number presented by HS which say 250 ppm is required for effective sanitation, may have some merit.
Since we agree that it is not likely for all the O3 to "bump into" bacteria, more would mean more chance for this to happen. I would hypothesize that HS is suggesting that 250ppm is the amount per million of Ozone required to effectively bump into enough bacteria to make it worth while.
Like I said just a poorly educated hypothesis. Let me know what you think.
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WOW y'all wrote allot while I was gone.
I had a thought while catching up on reading your comments. Again as I said before, I do not know where HS got this number.
Anne, I really like your first thought on this topic. However, I would tend to disagree with the "no minimum" required for effective sanitation. If we can take what seems to be the majority opinion that says, "Ozone sorta just bumps into whatever bacteria happens to be in its short lifespan at close proximity." If we believe this than the number presented by HS which say 250 ppm is required for effective sanitation, may have some merit.
Since we agree that it is not likely for all the O3 to "bump into" bacteria, more would mean more chance for this to happen. I would hypothesize that HS is suggesting that 250ppm is the amount per million of Ozone required to effectively bump into enough bacteria to make it worth while.
Like I said just a poorly educated hypothesis. Let me know what you think.
Not nessesarily poorly educated, more like your best guess. Which is about what everyone is doing. There is no dout that O3 kills bacteria. And as stated above a good and reliable sanitation regimen that includes O3 and makes the end user happy is just that, a good sanitation routine. But if a good and reliable sanitation regimen does not include O3....hey whatever works. I think theres alot of merit in the 24/7 introduction of O3 being maybe a bit better at getting these molecules in contact. A good contact chamber, whether it be with a 24/7 system or a timed filter system will also improve these chance meetings of molecules. And output of O3 generators will also help. But even with all the help you can give to your match making between these molecules theres still the chance that 0-5-10-20-30-40-50 or even as high as 99 percent of your hook ups will fail....sigh. Just like real life.
I can't believe in all this disscusion regarding Ozone some water treatment plant guru don't own a hot tub some where in this country. This guy may be able to give us some real data as it applys to water treatment that we may be able to cross to a hot tub environment.
10
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But anyone who thinks they purchased one to save some cost on sanitation may have been mislead into thinking that way.
I was not mislead- I did not anticipate a significant decrease in chlorine use, I just anticipated a sanitation system with a little more forgiveness if I went a few days not using it, or less concern if I tubbed in the morning and did not add any chlorine if I planned to be back in it at night :D.
I completly disagree with the folks saying it's like relegion, and there's no proof either way if it is effective.
That's absolutely hogwash. O3 is a proven sanitizer. With a proper delivery method, folks using it expereice using less sanitizer, and cleaner clearer water without having to add addiitonal sanizters between uses.
IF ozone has no value, is so controversial, or is meaningless in water management, why is it sold and why do people continue to replace them over the past 25 + years of it's application in this industry? Which BTW, is much more widely used and accepted today than ever before becoming "standard" equipment leaving the factory even by HS.
I dont think that anyone here has called ozone meaningless. The biology of it simply makes sense- it DOES kill bacteria- but does it do so enough to "matter"? This probably varies between quality of ozonators. Another analogy: aerobic exercise is good for me- it will help me burn fat, maintain a lower resting heart rate, yada, yada, yada. But if I go out and run once around the block, then sit down at my desk for 8 hours, I shouldn't expect to get in shape. I just wonder how many ozone units out there are producing enough ozone to "matter" and mixing it with the water enough to ensure contact with bacteria. I dont regert having one- I do think it makes a difference, but since it's effects are very hard to quantify, and its presence is impossible for an owner to verify, it becomes "like religion."
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Didn't someone post Vermonter's analysis of ozone not too long ago? I searched for it but didn't find it.
I think that's the most complete dissertation on the +/- of ozonators in hot tubs that I have seen.
Ehizzle if you haven't seen that document then I hope someone can track down the link. Vermonter gives a pretty thorough analysis.
I think the summary pretty much matches up with what folks have said. If you have a powerful enough ozone generator and a mechanism to expose every drop of water in your tub to ozone for the right contact period, on a constant cycle then they work extremely well as sanitizers.
Those parameters just aren't met with the current ozonators in hot tubs.
But yes ozonators in tubs can help as a secondary sanitizer and 24/7 sounds better than part time. My jacuzzi has a 24/7 circ pump and ozonator, but dichlor is my primary sanitizer.
Steve
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Thanks for the input. I hope someone finds that also. It's funny how little actual research I could find on the web.
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It was nice when spas only had 4 jets in them and huge UV ozones. People could get away with essentially no chlorine/bromine. When they get their new tubs with dozens of jets, multiple pumps, smaller lines etc..., they quickly find out that their new ozone doesn't do all the work for them.
Ozone may help keep clear water, but that does not mean it is SANITIZING. It just means it is OXIDIZING.
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It was nice when spas only had 4 jets in them and huge UV ozones. People could get away with essentially no chlorine/bromine. When they get their new tubs with dozens of jets, multiple pumps, smaller lines etc..., they quickly find out that their new ozone doesn't do all the work for them.
Ozone may help keep clear water, but that does not mean it is SANITIZING. It just means it is OXIDIZING.
I took one of those HUGE old UV units out of a tub the other day. The owner looked a little fuzzy. The bulb was so big the tub had to glow at night!! Probably had a power draw to match. I think the whole neighborhood was sanitized!!!
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It was nice when spas only had 4 jets in them and huge UV ozones. People could get away with essentially no chlorine/bromine. When they get their new tubs with dozens of jets, multiple pumps, smaller lines etc..., they quickly find out that their new ozone doesn't do all the work for them.
Ozone may help keep clear water, but that does not mean it is SANITIZING. It just means it is OXIDIZING.
Serj, You have been around a long time in this industry to remember ozone doing such a good job. You can remember when...... ;)
Ozone molecules however, can not distinguish between Sanitizing (killing bacteria or viruses) or Oxidizing (oxidizing minerals and nutrients). A molecule of O3 is unstable and simply in search of a like atom which it takes from any molecule of mineral, nutrient, bacteria or viruse. O3 then divides to become 2 molecules of O2 and the molecule from which it took the like atom is now dead matter or oxidized matter to be filtered clean from the water.
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For what it matters I talked to the tech guys at Jacuzzi according to them a 50mg ozonator puts out 50 milograms of ozone per hour. They could not and I am not sure that anyone can tell you how much of that is absorbed into the water it must be a certain percentage??
One thing I found as this was faxed to me by Jacuzzi from a list of frequently asked questions.
Ozone is an unstable compound generated by the exposure of oxygen molecules to a high energy electrical discharge. As the ozone molecule is unstable,as ozone is created,a reaction occurs upon collision between an ozone molecule and a molecule of an oxidizable substance i.e, bacteria,fungi and viruses as well as some forms of iron and maganese. During the oxidation reaction,organic molecules are changed and dissolved metals are no longer soluble. The weak bond splitz off and the by-product resulting is normal oxygen.
If any of you guys/gals want a copy of it I would be more than happy to fax it to you, just pm me your #
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...I completly disagree with the folks saying it's like relegion, and there's no proof either way if it is effective. That's absolutely hogwash...
Hogwash?? Poppycock, balderdash, baloney, perhaps -- but hogwash? ;) :)
I have the impression that your opinion is based on the fact that your old tub didn't have ozone, and you had water quality problems, while your new tub with ozone is easier to keep clean. Surely, your certainty is based on more than your observation of your, one, tub? How can you be sure that your improved water quality is based on ozone, and not other factors. Perhaps you have tested bacteria growth with the ozone on and with it off? Or, are you basing your "fact" on the numerous internet posts stating (an opinion) that it works? Or, do you believe it because your nice salesman told you so?
Anecdotes like Clover's, T-Man's and the like certainly would indicate that it is possible ozone contributes something to hot-tub maintenance, however... ozone's properties, as outlined by others in this thread, make it unlikely to be able to perform the "miracles" attributed to it by some. If you have access to scientific research that proves your position, and demonstrates ozone's effectiveness in a hot-tub environment, please share it.
If you were just objecting my analogy, how about this one instead (it was a looong sermon): Ozone appears to be like Santa Claus, it only brings benefits to the homes of believers. 8-)
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...IF ozone has no value, is so controversial, or is meaningless in water management, why is it sold and why do people continue to replace them over the past 25 + years of it's application in this industry?...
Didn't Detroit automakers and cigarette manufacturers use similar defenses? ;)
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Just remember that the ozone that's not absorbed into the water will off gas into the tub. This will ruin the headrests and cover.
I also think part of this whole ozone needed in a hot tub is hype. People believe some of what their told - sometimes all of what their told.
I tested ozone in my tub for 24/7 for a few months and found it did give me 1 whole day extra clean looking water - I could say close to 100% return. But it didn't give me 4 or 5 days. I also know that it only produces very low O3 based on Del's info.
What 50 mg an hour = 1.2 grams a day. Prozone claims 8 grams a day and the JED 103 claims 2.4 grams a day.
IF ozone is absorbed into water at a certain percentage, then the higher the output then the greater the amount amout of O3 is in the water to do the job.
The question of replacing an O3 unit is dependant on if you are blindly following what was vs thinking about what is. How long did that ozonator go out? A day, week or years. Was it really effective? Mine is not IMO, many people turn theirs off and are OK and some are effective.
Will I replace mine - they answer is yes with a "but" - since my O3 unit is producing very little ozone, I will replace it with a higher output unit, right now the Prozone unit seems to be the one I will choose. I plan on seeing if it does any better with considerably more ozone output. I also want to see if I get the ozone smell from all that extra ozone. I may have to add a "contact chamber" length of hose to get more absorbtion but I don't want to sacrifice a $400 cover for not adding $10 a year in extra dichlor.
Will it work any better - I'll find out when I add it.
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...IF ozone has no value, is so controversial, or is meaningless in water management, why is it sold and why do people continue to replace them over the past 25 + years of it's application in this industry?...
Didn't Detroit automakers and cigarette manufacturers use similar defenses? ;)
Cigarettes and ozone are both bad for your lungs ...
As far as the automakers it's all the foreign competion ... of course the workers south of the border are living in complete luxury and own 2 or 3 autos.
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Ozone appears to be like Santa Claus, it only brings benefits to the homes of believers. 8-)
LOL, I really like that, so it is true.
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Just remember that the ozone that's not absorbed into the water will off gas into the tub. This will ruin the headrests and cover.
I also think part of this whole ozone needed in a hot tub is hype. People believe some of what their told - sometimes all of what their told.
I tested ozone in my tub for 24/7 for a few months and found it did give me 1 whole day extra clean looking water - I could say close to 100% return. But it didn't give me 4 or 5 days. I also know that it only produces very low O3 based on Del's info.
What 50 mg an hour = 1.2 grams a day. Prozone claims 8 grams a day and the JED 103 claims 2.4 grams a day.
IF ozone is absorbed into water at a certain percentage, then the higher the output then the greater the amount amout of O3 is in the water to do the job.
The question of replacing an O3 unit is dependant on if you are blindly following what was vs thinking about what is. How long did that ozonator go out? A day, week or years. Was it really effective? Mine is not IMO, many people turn theirs off and are OK and some are effective.
Will I replace mine - they answer is yes with a "but" - since my O3 unit is producing very little ozone, I will replace it with a higher output unit, right now the Prozone unit seems to be the one I will choose. I plan on seeing if it does any better with considerably more ozone output. I also want to see if I get the ozone smell from all that extra ozone. I may have to add a "contact chamber" length of hose to get more absorbtion but I don't want to sacrifice a $400 cover for not adding $10 a year in extra dichlor.
Will it work any better - I'll find out when I add it.
Like I said earlier,I am pro ozone!!
I think very few people rely on ozone only and no chems in there spa,If you want to test the theory try this, keep the ozone hooked up but quit adding chlorine and or mps to your spa keep track of how many days it takes the water to go south on you.
Now most people will not go this far but get your water back up to par then unhook your ozone and without adding any chems keep track of how long it takes your water to go bad. Of course you would have to use your spa the same amount of time and same bather load as before.
in a perfect world this should tell you if your ozonator really makes a difference or not. Now I guess this will also depend on how well your spa filters and what type of filter it is. But thats for another debate.
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Just remember that the ozone that's not absorbed into the water will off gas into the tub. This will ruin the headrests and cover.
I also think part of this whole ozone needed in a hot tub is hype. People believe some of what their told - sometimes all of what their told.
I tested ozone in my tub for 24/7 for a few months and found it did give me 1 whole day extra clean looking water - I could say close to 100% return. But it didn't give me 4 or 5 days. I also know that it only produces very low O3 based on Del's info.
What 50 mg an hour = 1.2 grams a day. Prozone claims 8 grams a day and the JED 103 claims 2.4 grams a day.
IF ozone is absorbed into water at a certain percentage, then the higher the output then the greater the amount amout of O3 is in the water to do the job.
The question of replacing an O3 unit is dependant on if you are blindly following what was vs thinking about what is. How long did that ozonator go out? A day, week or years. Was it really effective? Mine is not IMO, many people turn theirs off and are OK and some are effective.
Will I replace mine - they answer is yes with a "but" - since my O3 unit is producing very little ozone, I will replace it with a higher output unit, right now the Prozone unit seems to be the one I will choose. I plan on seeing if it does any better with considerably more ozone output. I also want to see if I get the ozone smell from all that extra ozone. I may have to add a "contact chamber" length of hose to get more absorbtion but I don't want to sacrifice a $400 cover for not adding $10 a year in extra dichlor.
Will it work any better - I'll find out when I add it.
Like I said earlier,I am pro ozone!!
I think very few people rely on ozone only and no chems in there spa,If you want to test the theory try this, keep the ozone hooked up but quit adding chlorine and or mps to your spa keep track of how many days it takes the water to go south on you.
Now most people will not go this far but get your water back up to par then unhook your ozone and without adding any chems keep track of how long it takes your water to go bad. Of course you would have to use your spa the same amount of time and same bather load as before.
in a perfect world this should tell you if your ozonator really makes a difference or not. Now I guess this will also depend on how well your spa filters and what type of filter it is. But thats for another debate.
I did that! Don't mess with a Techno Junkie!!! ;D It has already been established that I like wearing lab coats.
I own one of the few tubs (Artesian) that can control ozone time with the controller. I have a circ pump and I can have ozone off or on up to 24 hours for 2 hour intervals. What a manufacturer! 8-) ;)
I found that with 0 ozone my tub stays about the same as with 8 hours. With 24/7 ozone I get 1 whole day more. Did it work -yes, somewhat. But I got more time of clear water with putting 10 PPM dichlor in.
As I said I will experiment with a higher output ozonator. I think Del has the marketing wrapped up nicely but it probably isn't "the best". Of course since it can't be measured anyone can claim it is percieved to be working ... like I do now! 8-)
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I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. One thing that was not mentioned is that ozone is a pollutant and as such is closely monitored by the EPA. It is very probable that if ozonators were built to put out more ozone they could run foul of Big Brother. In a practical sense, ozonators are of limited value. I use one, but side with Doc in wondering if it is more placebo than effective. BTW, I am a chemical engineer and would like to single Anne's comments out for particular praise.
Bill
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Jacuzzi Jim,
I think you are right no one is using only an ozonator. But what scares me is the daily MPS routine some mfrs/dealers are promoting. They say that with ozone and N2 you give your tub a daily dose of MPS and only 2 dichlor doses a week.
Seems to me that could easily mask issues with the bacteria level in your tub between dichlor doses. You might be able to maintain clear water but what's growing in there when your sanitizer level gets to zero.
I think ozone and n2 should be promoted for what they are, secondary sanitizers that 'help' your primary sanitizer. You still need a good primary sanitizer routine.
Steve
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Didn't someone post Vermonter's analysis of ozone not too long ago? I searched for it but didn't find it.
I think that's the most complete dissertation on the +/- of ozonators in hot tubs that I have seen.
Back on July 31st (my first post here) I included three posts on ozone in hot tubs. I'm not sure how much help they'll be and I'm not too familiar with how to post them here (they were too long for one post), but here's what I had originally included.
I'd be happy to go into more detail or help with any specific questions (if I can)...
This is from my July 31 post:
I have followed, with interest, a few of the recent threads that deal with the general subject of "ozone".
I guess it is appropriate for my first post on this forum to focus on ozone - a topic that I have nearly 30 years of experience with ranging from 3 million gallon per day high purity water systems (semiconductor) to drinking water systems many times that size to table-top carafes treating a liter at a time to hot tubs. Regarding hot tubs, one of my first posts on the rhtubs.com site concerned ozone - and, over the years, there have been several dozen on that site that followed that original post.
For this post, I wanted to not get into specific applications of ozone to hot tubs; what brand does or doesn't have a contactor, etc. Rather, I thought I would go through the basics of ozone - both as an oxidizer and as a sanitizer / disinfectant.
I should say that the following represents my opinion - backed by a considerable amount of experience and actual testing of ozone in hot tubs.
General:
First, ozone, like chlorine and bromine, is both an oxidizer and a sanitizer / disinfectant. Ozone functions first as an oxidant and secondarily as a sanitizer (I will use the term sanitizer vs. disinfectant; while ozone is a disinfectant, its use, in hot tubs, would, under optimum conditions, function as a sanitizer).
Ozone as an Oxidizer:
An oxidizer serves to "oxidize" or break down both organic and inorganic "contaminants" in your spa's water. If you use chlorine, some of the more common contaminants are chloramines - shocking with chlorine or MPS will effectively break down those compounds; theoretically, ozone would do the same. Other contaminants are from body waste (sweat, skin flakes, etc.), natural contaminants (pollen, insects, dust, etc.), contaminants in your water (both organic carbon as well as inorganic species such as iron, manganese, etc.). Oxidation breaks these contaminants down into simpler compounds. In the case of organics, the ultimate breakdown product is likely to be carbon dioxide or some simple form of organic acid. In the case of inorganics, it will be some oxidized form of the inorganic (i.e. a metal oxide).
If you have a tub with an ozonator installed and, if you have some "clear" tubing downstream of the Mazzei injector site, take a look at the tubing after a few weeks or months of use - most likely it will be reddish colored. That is the result of the ozone oxidizing the iron in your water from the reduced, ferrous state to the oxidized, ferric (rust) state. The fact that you see this immediately downstream of you ozonator is a visual representation of what I said above - oxidizers, in this case, ozone, functions first as an oxidizer (hence the color immediately after the ozone is introduced).
Part 2 continues with ozone as a sanitizer....and more!
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Continued from Part 1:
Ozone as a Sanitizer:
If the oxidative demand of the water in the tub or in the "contact chamber" is met, then, theoretically, ozone can function as a sanitizer. However, simply "injecting" ozone will not make this happen. To have ozone act as a sanitizer, you have to have ozone in the dissolved, or aqueous form, vs. the gaseous form that we all equate as "ozone" (i.e. the bubbles that you see and smell). All hot tub CD ozonators use air as the makeup gas - the ratio of air to ozone coming out of the ozonator is typically well over 95% and well less than 5% ozone. To get ozone into the water the best approach is to use a venture type of injector - such as the Mazzei (a brand) used in many hot tubs. This makes use of a pressure drop within the injector to "suck" in the air/ozone gas from the ozonator and to then diffuse it into the water flowing through the infector in an effort to transfer the gas into the liquid. Ideally, you want very, very small bubbles - so that for a given volume of gas you will have a maximum ratio of surface area of the bubbles to allow the ozone to enter the aqueous form. To do this effectively requires a long contact chamber and sufficient time for the phase transition to occur.
As indicated, once the ozone / air bubble is produced, it has a very limited time to transfer the ozone to the water. By the time you see bubbles rising in your tub, it is too late. Anyone who says that you can put a spa blanket on the water and "hold" in the ozone is simply wrong (my opinion).
If you succeed in getting ozone into the dissolved or aqueous phase, it doesn't stay there long. Ozone, in pure water, at a temp of 20'C (68'F) has a half-life of about 22 minutes (estimates vary a bit); meaning that after 22 minutes you have 50% of what you started with, after another 22 minutes you have half of that, etc. Hot tub water is not "pure water" and it is not at 68'F. The half-life of ozone in typical hot tub water is likely to be in the single minutes - perhaps even seconds (I have not seen studies on this, but comparable ones for other water types would indicate these numbers to be in the right ball park).
Heat is a big enemy of ozone half-life - so under the best of conditions (ozone generator, injector...) you are fighting an uphill battle in hot tubs. In my HotSpring Grandee (2001), the ozone is "injected" on the heater line - meaning that, if the heater is on, the ozone is being injected into water that is about 120'F - not good at all for efficient introduction of ozone. There are other problems associated with ozone - including such factors as pH and general water quality.
OK, but can ozone work as a sanitizer in a hot tub? Sure, IF you can achieve a dissolved ozone concentration and if that can be maintained for a long enough time to meet the CT (Concentration x Time) "kill" factor required for the target microbes. Ozone is one of the most powerful sanitizers (actually, in this sense, disinfectant and ozone is second only to fluorine) known and is effective, given enough CT, against essentially all microorganisms. BUT, to get a CT of above "0" you have to have both the C and the T above "0" or the product is "0" and you won't sanitize.
In the past I have challenged anyone to provide defensible results showing that dissolved ozone concentrations are present in EITHER the contact chamber of, more importantly, the main hot tub water. To do so, the method used must be an ozone-specific method. Many of the kits sold and "used" are DPD based - and will pick up any type of oxidizer present (chlorine, oxygen, etc.). There are ozone-specific methods such as indigo trisulfonate. I have tried measuring ozone myself - in my hot tub, in my contact chamber, in a few other hot tubs and have been unable to get any measurable (my detection level is 0.03 ppm) levels of dissolved ozone.
If you don't have a dissolved ozone residual - you will not get any "kill".
Best,
Vermonter
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Continued from Part 2:
Why don't hot tub manufacturers make powerful enough units? I'll admit, it's been a couple of years since I've really looked into this and it is possible that someone has. But the age-old problem is that since the transfer process of the ozone from the gas (bubble) phase to the aqueous (dissolved) phase is so poor that to get any ozone in the water you would generate so much off-gas that the units would fail federal limits. I have read of some "off-gas destruct" units that would theoretically take care of some of this - but I have yet to see any manufacture of tub or ozonator publish defensible, empirically generated data on dissolved ozone concentrations in tubs. A couple of years ago, my personal communication with a very, very large tub manufacturer and the largest manufacturer of ozone generators for factory installed units (in hot tubs) confirmed that it is "unlikely" to be able to achieve and measurable ozone level in the hot tub water itself. That may have changed and I would welcome any input on that.
But, keep in mind, even if you get a residual in the contact chamber and, after satisfying the oxidative demand, you get some antimicrobial (killing) action going on, since you don't have anything close to "plug-flow" in a tub, there is no way that the residual will be able to be maintained in the main tub or that all the contents of the main tub will be exposed to the contact chamber before being "recontaminated" (keep in mind the half-life and temperature related problems).
Bottom Line:
There is much, much more I could write on ozone - but my goal was to give basic information on what ozone is, how it works, how it is applied to hot tubs and to hopefully give a basic understanding of what it would take for ozone to work as a sanitizer in hot tubs.
Ozone is widely used in the drinking water, food, semiconductor and other industries as a sanitizer / disinfectant. It is a popular option for many hot tubs and, in my opinion, functions as an oxidizer and, as a result, may slightly reduce the need for your normal oxidizer / sanitizer. I have yet to see any data to support any claim that ozone can function as a stand-alone sanitizer in hot tubs or, for that matter, that it can exert any "killing" effect on microbes in hot tubs.
Do I have it on my hot tub? Yes! Will I keep it? Yes! Is there any scientific reason for that? No - at least not based on any numbers I have been able to generate or that I have seen in the literature! But I enjoy watching the bubbles!
Best,
Vermonter
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Continued from Part 2:
Vermonter
Thank you Vermonter......finaly you stuck your head and pocket protector in the door.
Good thread.
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Thanks a ton for the info Vermonter.
One more question for anyone? Are ppm and grams the same type of messurement. Jacuzzi measures its ozone in grams produced per hour, where as HS measures in ppm. My understanding is that they aren't the same type of measurement.
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Thanks a ton for the info Vermonter.
One more question for anyone? Are ppm and grams the same type of messurement. Jacuzzi measures its ozone in grams produced per hour, where as HS measures in ppm. My understanding is that they aren't the same type of measurement.
They are different measurements. And, as Vermonter showed, somewhat irrelevant.
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They are different measurements. And, as Vermonter showed, somewhat irrelevant.
They are, indeed, different measurements and have different implications when it comes to ozone applications.
The "grams per hour" (or weight per unit time - it may be milligrams or even pounds per unit of time) is a measure of the output of the ozone generator. It has nothing to do with the concentration of ozone in water.
It is a measure of the "applied" ozone (gaseous form) to the water - but not the concentration of the ozone in the water. Depending on whether any given generator is run on air or oxygen, the grams per hour output can vary by about 100% (an oxygen fed generator usually puts out about twice as much as the same generator on air).
The ppm (parts-per-million or milligrams per liter - the are the same) is a measure of the DISSOLVED concentration of ozone in water (the aqueous form I mentioned in the posts above). Unfotunately, the efficiency of the transfer of the gaseous form of ozone to the dissolved / aqueous form of ozone is very, very inefficient and it is likely that well less than 10% (perhaps closer to 1%) of the applied ozone ever makes it way to dissolved ozone in hot tubs.
The fact that the dissolved ozone concentration (in mg/L) in hot tubs is so low that you can't really detect it (at least I haven't been able to and no manufacturer that I am aware of makes claims as to dissolved concentration in the hot tub itself), this means that ozone is likely too low to function at all as a disinfectant. Remember (as described earlier), ozone works first as an oxidant and secondarily as a disinfectant - any dissolved ozone (in my opinion) never gets a chance to work as a disinfectant.
Vermonter
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Vermonter,
Again thanks. A HS Freshwater 3 sell sheet I have says, and I quote, "The FreshWater III system delivers 600 to 900 ppm of ozone continuously, ensuring the output remains at a level well above the minimum threshold of 250 ppm even with the high heat and humidity in a spa's equipment compartment." Since you said you have a HS I am guessing this is the Ozonator you have. I was curious what your thought are on this.
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"Delivers", as I read that only means that the air, as it exits the oozonator contains 600 ppm of ozone.
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Vermonter,
I was curious what your thought are on this.
Well...I guess I'd have to call HS and ask them exactly what they mean...but I think I know...
Note, that they say "delivered" which is analagous to my term of "applied" (in my posts above). It does not, I'm positive, equate to concentration of dissolved ozone in a hot tub. My guess is that HS is trying to market their "superior" generator by trying to maximize numbers figuring that many will not understand or catch the difference between ppm and, say, another manufacturer's grams per hour rating or between the terms "applied" and "dissolved".
Theoretically, you can convert the weight per unit volume measurement (e.g. grams per hour) to ppm as long as it's understood that you are using some constants in terms of the weight of, say, 1 liter of air at STP (standard temperature and pressure) that the generator is putting the ozone into. Then, assuming you know the mg / min (or hour) output of your generator, you can then readily calculate the concentration (in ppm or mg/L) of ozone for the total mass of air that is flowing through the generator. This is the "applied" or "delivered" value and, assuming I am interpreting them correctly, it really has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the concentration of ozone in your tub water. It pertains to the "concentration" in the air flow through the generator and that's it. There may be other factors that are involved in calculating "delivered" ozone - such as the molecular weight of the ozone molecule (approx. 48) vs. the corresponding weight (or volume) of the air that, again, is going through the generator in a specific period of time.
Confusing? Yes, and I apologize. Put another way (simpler, I hope), ppm is an expression of concentration. If you put one gallon of "bleach" in 1,000,000 gallons of water, you have a concentration of 1 ppm. So if HS says they are "delivering" up to 900 ppm of ozone, this (in my opinion) does not apply to the concentration in the tub at all but rather to the concentration of ozone in the air flow through the generator. Their reference to 250 ppm is puzzling but notice it refers to the equipment cabinet and not the water in the tub. Again, perhaps a bit of misdirection. They (HS) may have established some minimum gaseous ozone concentration (i.e. 250 ppm) as a minimum for tub applications (perhaps it is some industry spec?) and want to show that their unit can produce "gaseous" ozone concentrations well above this minimum.
I know that about 5 years ago (when I became a HS tub owner) I spoke with the head of their "ozone application" group and, at that time (Freshwater III) had agreement from him that it would be unlikely that there could be any measurable level of dissolved ozone in the main hot tub and perhaps none in the contact chamber.
While I am a HS fan (I particularly like their no-bypass filtration), I think that these numbers you reference have absolutely no direct relevance to ozone in hot tubs other than to give some yardstick by which the OUTPUT of competitive ozone generators can be compared. It does not equate to dissolved ozone concentration in the tub's water. (Keep in mind that drinking water ozone plants typically raise dissolved ozone levels to a maximum of a few ppm (or less) at the time of treatment to effectively kill most types of microbes in the water you drink.) You also simply cannot get 900 ppm of dissolved ozone in water.
Vermonter
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While I think this thread is facinating.
It seems as if we are beating a so called dead horse.
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I don't think it's beating a dead horse at all. I think it's refreshing to get an honest, scientific, factual answer, rather than some manufacturers double talk or shill salesperson speak that's meant to mislead rather than educate.
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I agree. I think we have heard some real information that we maybe haven't covered on the topic before. I can't thing of anything else that needs to be added now though.
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I don't think it's beating a dead horse at all. I think it's refreshing to get an honest, scientific, factual answer, rather than some manufacturers double talk or shill salesperson speak that's meant to mislead rather than educate.
I agree. It would be a shame if this info got buried in the dead horse category. As a matter of fact, it would be nice if the Vermonter posts could be pinned up at the top along with the forum rules, so we don't have to go through the "Tastes Great/ Less Filling" debate every few months.
Thank you Vermonter, for taking the time to drop-by and rehash this topic for us.
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I agree. I think we have heard some real information that we maybe haven't covered on the topic before. I can't thing of anything else that needs to be added now though.
Pretty much what I ment. I dont mind, it can go on longer but I am not sure how much more info can be added??
Other than filtraition and thats another horse. :-X ;D
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I agree. I think we have heard some real information that we maybe haven't covered on the topic before. I can't thing of anything else that needs to be added now though.
I got one thing to add!! I am going to install a small oxygen bottle inside my cabinet to supply air to my ozonator. A little hose and a simple regulator, a shut off so I can change bottles. Oh wait the bottle has one on it.
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I am going to install a small oxygen bottle inside my cabinet to supply air to my ozonator.
Might as well put a green "Ox" button to activate it and indicator bulb on the spa while you are at it, so you can at least impress your friends and pretend it is making a difference. :D
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You could get an O2 generator with built-in air dryer and cooler. I think with this you'll get a 70% to 80% ozone output.
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You could get an O2 generator with built-in air dryer and cooler. I think with this you'll get a 70% to 80% ozone output.
18,000 dollar ozone system......cool!!! 30 bucks a year for chlorine. And with this system I can completely eliminate chlorine, 600 years an it's starts paying for itself! I wonder if I will need to contact the EPA?
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[18,000 dollar ozone system......cool!!! 30 bucks a year for chlorine. And with this system I can completely eliminate chlorine, 600 years an it's starts paying for itself! I wonder if I will need to contact the EPA?
Actually, you'll still need most of the chlorine ;), but even if you could eliminate it, there will be no payback period, with all the covers and headrests you'll go through! :o
Now that I think about it.... Clover, I think we have the answer to why Doc offers ozonators in his store! It is a business development tool for the replacement cover division! 8-)
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Bump for Drewstar :)
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Bump for Drewstar :)
Bless you my son. :)
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I used to sell Alpine Air purifiers. They sanitized air 2 ways, with ionization nozzle and with an ozone plate. The theory was to cover all the bases.
The debate about ozone was about the same as it is on this forum. Maybe even stronger. Some people think that airborne Ozone is dangerous and a pollutant. Those people are NOT far off!
Ozone and ionization work essentially the same. Both produce extra electrons that are used to attract "baddies". Basically "baddies" (germs, dust, smoke) are positively charged ions. The electrons and protons zap each other and the charge is neutralized.
A lot of claims were made about what ozone could do, how good it was, blah blah blah.
The ozone production from these purifiers has a distinct smell. Some people call it sickly sweet. Some did NOT like the smell, others didnt mind it. At our house we didnt like the smell and turned down the production to the minimum. In retrospect we may has well shut it off completely.
If you left a plastic object in front of the air purifier, within months, it would become discolored or disfigured because of the ozone. We all know that ozone can destroy the plastics in hot tubs covers and pillows. Not so much destroy it , but oxidize, it (ie. discolored and brittle).
There is good ozone and bad ozone. I do not want to get into it here, but you can GOOGLE the word ozone and find lots of opinions about it.
On the other hand, Ionization WITHOUT ozone is safer and most likely more effective. I would like to see the industry move that way, towards more ionization products, and away from ozonators, which are too controversial.
Just my .02 worth.
Neo
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I used to sell Alpine Air purifiers. They sanitized air 2 ways, with ionization plate and with an ozone plate. The theory was to cover all the bases.
The debate about ozone was about the same as it is on this forum. Maybe even stronger. Some people think that airborne Ozone is dangerous and a pollutant. Those people are NOT far off!
Ozone and ionization work essentially the same. Both produce extra electrons that are used to attract "baddies". Basically "baddies" (germs, dust, smoke) are positively charged ions. The electrons and protons zap each other and the charge is neutralized.
A lot of claims were made about what ozone could do, how good it was, blah blah blah.
The ozone production from these purifiers has a distinct smell. Some people call it sickly sweet. Some did NOT like the smell, others didnt mind it. At our house we didnt like the smell and turned down the production to the minimum. In retrospect we may has well shut it off completely.
If you left a plastic object in front of the air purifier, within months, it would become discolored or disfigured because of the ozone. We all know that ozone can destroy the plastics in hot tubs covers and pillows. Not so much destroy it , but oxidize, it (ie. discolored and brittle).
There is good ozone and bad ozone. I do not want to get into it here, but you can GOOGLE the word ozone and find lots of opinions about it.
On the other hand, Ionization WITHOUT ozone is safer and most likely more effective. I would like to see the industry move that way, towards more ionization products, and away from ozonators, which are too controversial.
Just my .02 worth.
Neo
There have been some studies out on the air purifiers for Ozone. Although thier credibily is questionable. The significant difference is the air purifiers are usualy desinged to sit on a desk or work area and have a fan blowing the O3 directly onto a person, while the O3 in hot tubs is usually disapaited or absorbed in the water. Or so the argument goes. There is little doubt that O3 at certain levels is dangerous.
I didn't think the Ion units destroy bacteria, but rather collected them, via electomagneticly charging the particles that are then "stuck" to the ion collection plate (these are the units you see in Sharper Image and such) The do not destroy bacterial, but attrack particulate matter. Typically you have to wipe the plates down because they will be dirty from the dust, smoke and pollution they attract. But they are not "Destroying" They are Trapping. Think static electricy and electomagnet bonds.
Ozone actually attacks the cell wall of material and will kill organic material.
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Actually, the Alpine purifiers did NOT have a collection plate unlike some of the newer units may have, it just had an ionizer projectile. I KNOW, they did not have a paper filter.
According to Alpine, the ionizer could neutrilize particles up to 30 feet away, and through walls in another room!
I have seen smoke ionized using one of these purifiers, it is quite amazing, it is like it disappears into thin air. I still have a special unit that actual cigarette smoke was inserted and then turned on and "poof" (pun intended) the smoke was gone.
You are most likely right about the ionically neutralized particle, it just may fall to the floor rather than be destroyed like ozone zapped particle. I really do not remember.
I am not yet familiar with hot tub ionization products, but I am going to try to learn more about them. Any information that you could send me on these would be appreciated. Maybe ionic cleaning is more effective in air, then it is in water? What are you thoughts on this?
Neo
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IF there's no collection plate, then I'd say you're gonna have dirty walls. Those particles (dust, smoke, etc) will cling to something. ;)
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Actually, partcles will only stick to the wall if they have a charge on them, much like hair will stick to a balloon if you rub someones head with it.
I checked with my boss (my wife) and she verifies that
once we started using the purifier, we noticed a lot more dust on tables, etc. We were warned of this ahead of time.
However OUR WALLS were clean! And the air around us was clean. I am sure the carpet was not so clean! So we did do more vacuuming, which i am sure stirred it up again. From ashes to ashes and dust to dust. Catch as much as you can and damn the rest! haha.
Neo
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walls, floors, babies, donuts, all the same, no? The ionozer was charging the particles so that they were charged, and attracted to the nearest surface, no?
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I would not bet money on this, but as you know, an ionizer produces electrons, not particles. And as most BADDIES (air-borne pollutants ,dust, smoke, etc) are + charged (positive charge) to start with, THOSE dirties can stick to walls, etc. When a negative electron hit it, it neutralizes the charge so it drops to the furniture, etc.
Anyways, that is how i was taught. Maybe I am wrong, wouldn't be the first time or the last! :-)
Neo
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The FDA put out a warning a few years ago about ozone generation air cleaning machines.
I have no clue on ion generators but am wondering if a positively charged O molecule is bad for your health why wouldn't a positively charged electrical electron be bad - think radiation ... low level, the same type that high power electrical lines produce I'm thinking.
All this talk of speculating whether ozone works or not is so unscientific and you can't equate drinking water ozone with spa ozone.
drewstar, you know that your ozone does a great job because you have disconnected it and saw a big difference, if you haven't maybe you should and see the difference. It may be substancial or maybe like me you won't see too much of a difference. Without doing so you really can't say anything works or doesn't. Mine doesn't but I also said I need to get a higher output ozonator to tell if there is a difference. Having something and blindly believing in it is not a good thing ... there are thousands of infomercials on TV hawking all the great stuff out there and plenty of people on those infomercials swearing by them, some even had fake lab tests to prove they worked.
Remeber that air is only 21% O2, a 79% reduction than in drinking water ozone. We have no clue how much O3 is absorbed and I would hope that it's a standard % so a 50% higher output ozonator should yield 50% more ... even if we are talking about only 1% absorption.
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The air ionizers charge air particles( be they dust, smoke, pollen,) in the air via an electrical charge. These charges particles will cling to walls, desks, floors whatever and not float around the air. It's just that simple. Some of the units are now designed to give off a substantial greater amount of ozone, in addition to the ionizing action. These new air cleaners health effects are questionable. Units that say they can clean the air in the next room or at great distances are cleaning the air, not by charging the particles (ionization), but via the ozone they produce.
what this has to do with tubs, I don't know.
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Bump for kenoflife. :) When you use the search feature, if you expand the time frame, and limit results to one per thread, you can get further back in the archives. This isn't the Vermonter thread, but it does include a reprise of his original post.