Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: DrOperations on January 29, 2007, 05:53:41 pm
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Hi all!
OK, I have this interesting phenonmenon. I have a 500 gal tub with ozone and 24/7 circ. My chemistry is fine (ph, Alk, hardness). I use leisure time chems. Every Friday I add 2 oz of Defender, 2 oz of Bright and Clear and 2 oz of Enzyme. The Bright and Clear generates a little curd that I scoop off with a net. I am using a bromine floater and use about 3 tablespoons of Renew MPS as shock about every 2-3 days (we use the tub almost every night).
I get crystal clear water for 2-3 days after adding the chems and then by Monday (today), the water is a starting to get a little cloudy. Not real cloudy...but enough that I can tell. I'll wait until Friday and do the chems again and it will clear up.
Any suggestions? I thought about using some diclor as a shock also.
Everyone's comments have been very helpful so far on this board!
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I had a similar problem. Also use Bromine with a floater and have ozone. Don't use the defender, bright and clear or enzyme, but do shock with MPS. After a while, the water would get cloudy. Everything seemed to be in line, but found out that it was the start of bad things to come. Someone recommended instead of using MPS all the time to use regular old clorox after each use, depending on the size of the tub, a couple of tablespoons, and then to shock with MPS once a week or even once every two weeks, depending on use. This seems to have worked for me. It also helps with TDS.
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Every Friday I add 2 oz of Defender, 2 oz of Bright and Clear and 2 oz of Enzyme.
I do believe that it is the combination of Bright & Clear and Defender that causes the phenomenon you speak of (I think our instructions state never to add them both the same day but I don't have the copy with me now to check). Try performing those operations on separate days and I do believe you'll avoid this. In fact, we tell people with hard water to add the Defender weekly but the Bright & Clear only as you deem necessary as opposed to blindly adding it on a set schedule.
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I agree with Spatech in that it sounds like you are adding a lot of chems at one time. If they are all necessary, perhaps it would be better to space them out. However, if I understand this correctly, the cloudiness doesn't show up until 2-3 days after adding the chems, and the midweek MPS shock evidently doesn't clear it up. I would think that a combination problem would show up sooner. I'm wondering if it could be a sanitizer or filtration problem.
A few questions: Do you start the fill out by establishing a bromine reserve, or just put the floater in? You mentioned a lot of use as justification for semi-weekly shocks. How much is it used (bathers/time/frequency)? What level of bromine are you maintaining? You also said your chemistry levels are fine. What are the values? You mention curds after the clarifier application. Are a lot of oils/cosmetics making their way into the water? How old is the fill?
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Thanks everyone!
More info...
My Bromine is at 3PPM. I did use a packet of Brom start when I filled the tub the first weekend in December. Ph is 7.4 and Alk 120. I take the filter out once per week and spray it good. Our water is not too hard.
The Bright and Clear is obviously clearly up the spa, but I hate using it weekly. We have a heavy bather load. Usually 5-6 nights each week (out of 7), 3-4 people for 30 minutes. I know it sounds like I do it just for a schedule, but the Bright and Clear always generates quite a bit of "scum" that I scoop off.
I don't think it is cosmetics, hair products. Maybe, its our clothing/soap. I am trying to eliminate this next. Or, it may be a high TDS. Due to weather, I won't get the water changed for a few weeks. (I'm in Southern Indiana...did a 12 degree F soak with the kids last night!)
I had an LED go out and the repair person mentioned using household bleach. That is why is was considering doing a diclor dose. Is anyone using bleach with bromine?
I think I will separate the chemicals more. Could I be shocking with MPS too often?
We might be on to something...
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Just to reiterate: Adding Defender and Bright and Clear at the same time - even on the same day - will cloud the water.
Yes, you can shock with dichlor if you are using Bromine.
8-)
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Thanks, Chas!
I'll split up the chemical cocktail.
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Just to reiterate: Adding Defender and Bright and Clear at the same time - even on the same day - will cloud the water.
Yes, you can shock with dichlor if you are using Bromine.
8-)
That's been my experince. I only add Bright and clear as needed and very sparingly.
I don't use the enzymes, and only use the defender (my Ph and Alk and CA are always pretty good) very sparingly. I noticed if I mixed up the recomened Hot tub cocktail as leisrure time suggested my water went south right away.
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The enzymes and Bright and Clear do similar jobs in different ways. I suggest dropping the weekly use of Bright and Clear; only use as needed.
I also suggest using dichlor if you are going to use any chlorine. Household bleach is a weak mixture full of fillers.
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I'd recommend making only one change at a time, so you can pinpoint the problem. As you plan, splitting up the chem doses is a good place to start. Like other have posted, it seems to me that you may be able to drop or cut back on one or more of the chems, so cutting back on the clarifier would probably be the next step.
There do not appear to be any problems with your chemistry levels that are likely culprits. As far as the shock frequency, it is more than most of us do (weekly/biweekly), but you also use your tub more than most. Given the amount of use, you are probably due for a water change as soon as the weather allows. If I recall correctly, the guideline for days between water changes is 1/3 gallons in spa divided by average # of users/day. I'm guessing that will be about every two months with that kind of use.
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AGhhhh, guys why would you use household chlorine--no way! Bad for PH, skin and spa elements, you'll be replacing jets in less than 2 years. I prefer MPS as it sanitizes (a little) with shock. As you are using the tub heavily you need everthing to be dialed in so you don't "chase the water". How old is your ozonater? Regardless of what the manufacturers say they tend to go after about a year. Have you considered an ION (Nature 2 type) cartridge? You would need to switch to SPA chlorine as bromine is not compatible, but it sure is an easier way to go with an ozonator. My favorite system with heavy use is: an ozonator, ION cartridge, MPS shock and 2 tsp of chlorine after each use in addition to the weekly enzyme cleaner...always perfect never smelly. :-* :-* :-*
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AGhhhh, guys why would you use household chlorine--no way! Bad for PH, skin and spa elements, you'll be replacing jets in less than 2 years. I prefer MPS as it sanitizes (a little) with shock. ...My favorite system with heavy use is: an ozonator, ION cartridge, MPS shock and 2 tsp of chlorine after each use in addition to the weekly enzyme cleaner...
The only recommendation for household chlorine was the service person, but if you watch the pH, there is no reason it can't work. With low pH bromine, it may even make some sense, compared with low pH MPS. They both carry a lot of TDS. By the way, as far as I know, MPS does NOT sanitize.
Your "favorite system" is just the same chlorine based approach that many of us use. IMO, the chlorine is doing the heavy lifting, and the N2 and ozone are supplementing it. Besides, if he wants to try a mineral stick, he can use the Frog, and not have to change his bromine routine.
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Thanks for the input, everyone.
I don't think I would use household bleach. I am thinking about a mineral cartridge, though. Leisure Time has one that is compatible with bromine.
As for the life on the ozonator, I received the spa on Oct 3, 2006. So, I don't think it needs replaced yet.
(I have a .jpg of the tub I would post, but I don't know how to post a pic...is there any size restriction?)
Thanks, again!
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How old is your ozonater? Regardless of what the manufacturers say they tend to go after about a year.
Yes, the low-dollar units need to be either replaced or serviced about 9000 hours - one year at full time operation.
I don't know what type of ozonator you have purchased or used, but the ones I have sold for years do go longer than a year, by far.
I have sold a very few of the Del Eclipse units, and those have a chip which needs replaced just over one year of constant operation. That is easy to do, and costs around $70. Del also sells a platinum Eclipse unit which goes 15,000 hours of operation. Bit more up front, but I have seen them go longer than two years.
But the FreshWater III units - custom made by Del for Watkins - are constructed much differently and do not have a regular service item at a set number of hours. The parts are not interchangeable with Del's other units, and I have seen then go five years or more. I have also seen them expire in two years if the injector is not kept clear - they are very high output units and the ozone will eat the outlet fittings if there is a blockage that is not cleared promptly.
8-)
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Household bleach, also known as chlorine bleach, sodium hypochlorite (NaClO), has a pH level of 11.
Liquid pool chlorine is another type which is created by bubbling the chlorine gas through a solution of caustic soda. The yellow liquid (stronger, but chemically identical to household bleach) has 10-15% available chlorine, and has a pH of 13. Liquid Chlorine is also called Sodium Hypochlorite (NaOCl) and because it is already in solution, sodium hypo produces hypochlorous acid instantly when it contacts water. The liquid can be poured directly into the pool or spa. I used it for years residential and larger commercial pools. I transported it myself in 15 gallon 'carboy' drums. Had to placard my truck and be sure I was not also transporting acid or other chems.
For most residential pools, its lower cost seems to be outweighed by its difficulty in use and the amount of acid required to counteract its pH of 13. Use care when handling as this chemical is corrosive to just about everything, and gives off a strong chlorine cloud even with normal handling.
8-)
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My ozonator is a UV bulb type. It's a white rectagular box. That's about all I can tell... The bulb is on and I am getting the champagne bubbles out of the port. I think it is OK.
Thanks!
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(I have a .jpg of the tub I would post, but I don't know how to post a pic...is there any size restriction?)
Dr. O,
Here's a link to some pretty thorough directions on how to post a pic.
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1164600790/0#0
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Dr. O,
Nice setup.
Is that tile I see on the patio?!! 8-)
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/tub_edited-1.jpg)
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Yes, we had the porcelin tile layed about one month prior to the spa arriving. It is over the older concrete pad.
So, far, we love the spa!
I think I accidentally posted my picture inside of your reply...so sorry.
I'm still learning...
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I see one very crucial problem with your installation.
8-)
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OK, I'm game....
(is it that I'm not in the water?)
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I see one very crucial problem with your installation.
8-)
OK, I'm game....
(is it that I'm not in the water?)
I'm guessing it's b/c you didn't install a Watkins Tub. :)
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Ah, of course...
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OK, I'm game....
(is it that I'm not in the water?)
Where is the access panel for your tub? Is it where the steps are? I hope so.
Also, you wont be able to snap down (nor lock) the cover.
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Interesting tub Dr Operations. It looks nice. I never heard of Royal spas and checked them out on the net,
I was struck by this little marketing peice called "BOBS RULES"
This is the difference between right and wrong!
Always buy a spa that has a non-computer controlled system
* There is nothing on a spa that requires a computer to operate.
* The only one who benefits from spa computers is the repairman.
Always buy a spa that circulates all the time
* Stagnant water is usually unhealthy.
* Stagnant water requires more maintenance.
* Turning a pump on and off again reduces pump life.
Always avoid buying a spa with a 2 speed pump!
* They are unacceptably noisy when you are trying to relax in the spa at night. They can also be heard inside the house.
* They cause the water to overheat during the summer time unless turned off during the day.
* They are expensive to operate. The newer technology in the spa industry is gradually phasing out the 2-speed pump because of its high operating cost.
Always buy a spa that pushes the water through the filter!
* No correctly engineered filter system sucks through the filter.
* Suction type of filter requires considerably more cleaning maintenance and expense.
* Restricting the water coming to a pump reduces its pumping ability.
(It is called a pump..not a sucker!)
I'm curious what other spa techs and pros think?
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The access panel is on the left side of the tub picture. (not behind the steps) The enclosure was my wife's idea. It will be a hassle if I need to get behind it. I didn't get to vote on that.
Royal Spa are a "regional" manufacturer of spas. I live in a small town (Bloomington, IN) that has two small "store front" operations (one sells HS and one Dynasty). There are two swimming pools contractors in town (one sells Jacazzi and one Master). The two store fronts don't have full time repair folks and the pool people didn't seem interested in selling me a spa. So, Royal was a good fit for me. I do buy the chemicals local, to help out the small guys.
I was able to get much more tub for the money from Royal. They have a strong presence here in Bloomington and the area. They have a repair truck in town 1-2 days a week. I have had them out for a couple of minor issues (a LED went out, etc) and they were quick to respond and easy to work with. So, there is safety in numbers.
I found some of their advertising interesting. I don't necessarily believe all of it...
I think this is a good mid-line spa. I'll keep everyone posted!
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The access panel is on the left side of the tub picture. (not behind the steps) The enclosure was my wife's idea. It will be a hassle if I need to get behind it. I didn't get to vote on that.
Royal Spa are a "regional" manufacturer of spas. I live in a small town (Bloomington, IN) that has two small "store front" operations (one sells HS and one Dynasty). There are two swimming pools contractors in town (one sells Jacazzi and one Master). The two store fronts don't have full time repair folks and the pool people didn't seem interested in selling me a spa. So, Royal was a good fit for me. I do buy the chemicals local, to help out the small guys.
I was able to get much more tub for the money from Royal. They have a strong presence here in Bloomington and the area. They have a repair truck in town 1-2 days a week. I have had them out for a couple of minor issues (a LED went out, etc) and they were quick to respond and easy to work with. So, there is safety in numbers.
I found some of their advertising interesting. I don't necessarily believe all of it...
I think this is a good mid-line spa. I'll keep everyone posted!
It looks nice Dr. Please stick around here and let us know how it works out for. :)
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...I was struck by this little marketing peice called "BOBS RULES"
This is the difference between right and wrong!
Always buy a spa that has ...
You gotta wonder if Bob's brother, RonRon is going to show up at some point to set the record straight. ;) :)