Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: nlittle on January 19, 2007, 11:32:28 am
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So I have seen many different approaches to water care as I have been reading up.
My manual tells me to chlorinate before getting in.
Some people here say after.
What do you do?
Before or After?
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After.
This kills the bacteria that I have introduced into the water so that it will be clean the next time I soak and since Dichlor disapates relativly quickly the next time I do go in, I'm not soaking in a chlorine bath.
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After for the same reasons as the Drewman
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ditto.
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After, this way the bacteria dont get to live in teh H2O too long. And I don't smell like bleach, and have dry skin.
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Almost 95% of the time I shower before getting in. I don't use my hot tub as a bath. Consequently I don't have water problems. I'll tell you why. An unnamed person got into my tub one night, the next morning, I had this film around the top of the waterline. This could only have came from one source. Hot tubs are hot by nature, it opens up the pores in the skin. Oils are released. Not to mention whats on the bottom of the feet thats tracked in the tub. My point: shock after the introduction of nasty's.
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Simply put, if you require a safe sanitizer level (1-3ppm) prior to going in, you need to add some. I think what everyone is recommending here is that shocking or just boosting your levels after use is a good idea. I don't suggest getting into a spa with a zero chlorine reading so if you need to add a small dosage to get it into safe bathing range, then there's no problem doing so.
Steve
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Go to Doc's site (www.rhtubs.com) and look in the FAQ section to find the Vermonter's water treatment program. That is the way to use dichlor. Contrary to Steve's comment, the free chlorine residual can be and often is low or even zero when you get in the tub. In fact getting into chlorine free (or close to it) water is a big part of why the Vermonter's method is the best option for many people.
Regards,
Bill
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After for all of the above answers. The thing is you want to soak with as little chemicals in the water with it still being safe.
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Add your chemicals after you are finished soaking. :)
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I split the difference between Steve and Bill. I prefer soaking in little/no chlorine for regular use, but want more sanitation when there is potential for new contaminents to be introduced.:P For regular use by our family, I dose 3-5 ppm after use -- and every second day if it is not used. That results in a very low chlorine reading before we get in. When entertaining guests, I make sure there is 1-3 ppm residual before use, and add enough chlorine to get it up to at least 5 ppm after. 8-)
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... For regular use by our family, I dose 3-5 ppm after use -- and every second day if it is not used. That results in a very low chlorine reading before we get in. When entertaining guests, I make sure there is 1-3 ppm residual before use, and add enough chlorine to get it up to at least 5 ppm after. 8-)
I think you and Galen are on to something...when it's just my partner and I we are only soaking in our own "dirt". When someone else comes over, who knows what is in the water with you!
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Go to Doc's site (www.rhtubs.com) and look in the FAQ section to find the Vermonter's water treatment program. That is the way to use dichlor. Contrary to Steve's comment, the free chlorine residual can be and often is low or even zero when you get in the tub. In fact getting into chlorine free (or close to it) water is a big part of why the Vermonter's method is the best option for many people.
Regards,
Bill
Mmmmmm, guess I need another 12 years before I get it right? :-/
[size=18]It is unsafe to get into hot water with no sanitizer.[/size]
Does anyone disagree? :o
Ask yourself what sanitizer is for... to keep the spa water safe for bathers by killing bacteria or to keep it looking clear after use?
Remember people...this is the internet and not everything you read is true. Take all of this with a grain of salt and talk to professionals face to face that you can trust.
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I'm w/ Steve. I try to add enough dichlor post soak so by my next soak there's about 1ppm FC. For me that's about 1 1/2 tsp. :D The key is trial and error until you figure out how much yours is? After that it's easy. :D
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Mmmmmm, guess I need another 12 years before I get it right? :-/
[size=18]It is unsafe to get into hot water with no sanitizer.[/size]
Does anyone disagree? :o
Ask yourself what sanitizer is for... to keep the spa water safe for bathers by killing bacteria or to keep it looking clear after use?
Remember people...this is the internet and not everything you read is true. Take all of this with a grain of salt and talk to professionals face to face that you can trust.
Steve I have a question for you. When you refill do you soak before adding any chemicals? I believe this is the very best soak possible. Why would you want to soak in any more chemicals than you have to? Do you have a bacteria phobia? ;D
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When you refill do you soak before adding any chemicals?
NO. Do you?
I believe this is the very best soak possible.
I beleive your beliefs are wrong. Everything I've ever read states that there should be some kind of residual before entering the tub. Why are you so against soaking w/ such a minimal amount of chlorine present? Even if it's not neccessary, it's better to be safe than sorry.
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...It is unsafe to get into hot water with no sanitizer. Does anyone disagree?...
So, no bath tubs for you or your family? ;)
As I said, I agree in regards to multiple users. I also think that if behooves professionals such as yourself to recommend a program that has a safety margin built in, and to point out that the "Vermonter Method" that is so popular here has limitations that have been pointed out before, namely: multiple users, irregular use, little margin for error, etc.
That said... as long as the tub is clean when I get in, I'm not too concerned about soaking alone (well almost alone, along with the stuff that comes off my own body. :)), or with my lovely wife. Sure bacteria/viruses multiply rapidly, so there is a theoretical risk, but I bet there is also one with LT exposure to even "safe" levels of chlorine.
I don't think that Vermonter's microbiology background and the trials he has performed on his own tub should be discounted/lumped in with "everything you read on the internet". The unfortunate thing is that most folks are looking for a simple answer to "How do I keep my tub safe, without soaking in a chemical stew, which may also be unsafe?". They get referred to the Vermonter post, ignore all his cautions/disclaimers and seem to come away with the idea that if they treat their tub with a 1/2 teaspoon of dichlor after they get out, that is all they need. Combine that with testimonials like Bill's, and it almost seems like the dose after use approach is conventional wisdom, so I can understand your frustration. We certainly see a number of posts from people who are experiencing problems that wouldn't have occurred, if they just used a little more dichlor, a little more frequently.
As far as sources of advice, I'm sorry to say that I have encountered many "professionals" at local dealers who are not as informed as some of the laypeople here. A lot of these professionals also seem to push ozone, Baqua, SoftSoak, the Natural, Nature2 and other alternative programs. One has to wonder if that advice is based on a belief that the alternatives to chlorine/bromine are better, or just better margins. Face to face in a store, an unprepared customer may go home with a box of chemicals that may not keep the tub any cleaner, but costs 3 times as much. At least on a forum like this, bad advice may get challenged by another member.
As I said, the program I use is somewhere in between your advice and Bill's, so I don't disagee with you entirely, just as I don't agree with the Bill/Vermonter approach entirely, either -- I just am not sure that it is so clear cut that it needed a proclamation in 18 pt type;), and what I took as a condescending attitude toward some of the more thoughtful members of this forum.
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Steve I have a question for you. When you refill do you soak before adding any chemicals? I believe this is the very best soak possible. Why would you want to soak in any more chemicals than you have to? Do you have a bacteria phobia? ;D
Let me attempt to clarify my position...
I am an advocate of sanitized water in an warm water environment that promotes bacteria and bathing. Call it a phobia I guess...
When water is treated properly, you should be able to come out of your spa without a chlorine or bromine odor and not notice the sanitizer at all. That requires totally balanced water and not just correct sanitizer levels. For this reason, I balance my water and achieve a correct sanitizer level.
So, no bath tubs for you or your family? ;)
We take showers... :P ;)
That said... as long as the tub is clean when I get in, I'm not too concerned about soaking alone (well almost alone, along with the stuff that comes off my own body. :)), or with my lovely wife. Sure bacteria/viruses multiply rapidly, so there is a theoretical risk, but I bet there is also one with LT exposure to even "safe" levels of chlorine.
What is clean to you and how are you making this assumption? If you are like most, you will base it on the clarity of the water. BIG MISTAKE! Battery acid is clear.
It's a common mistake so don't feel bad.
It’s also OK to drive 20 MPH above the speed limit… ;)
I don't think that Vermonter's microbiology background and the trials he has performed on his own tub should be discounted/lumped in with "everything you read on the internet".
I have a great deal of respect for Vermonter and that wasn't directed at him specifically. It was more of broad statement that I stand 100% behind. So should the readers here.
The unfortunate thing is that most folks are looking for a simple answer to "How do I keep my tub safe, without soaking in a chemical stew, which may also be unsafe?". They get referred to the Vermonter post, ignore all his cautions/disclaimers and seem to come away with the idea that if they treat their tub with a 1/2 teaspoon of dichlor after they get out, that is all they need. Combine that with testimonials like Bill's, and it almost seems like the dose after use approach is conventional wisdom, so I can understand your frustration.
I have no frustration at all... just offering proven wisdom in maintaining a safe environment that is recognized by the people that set the standards for commercial and residential hot tub use. Not exactly out on a limb here... ::)
The "dose after use" concept is great advise that I also suggest. I'm also suggesting that it not replace a safe 1-3ppm of free chlorine either. See the difference?
The suggestion that safe, recommended sanitizer levels could be construed as a “chemical stew” is laughable. It lacks watercare knowledge.
We certainly see a number of posts from people who are experiencing problems that wouldn't have occurred, if they just used a little more dichlor, a little more frequently.
Oh so true!
As far as sources of advice, I'm sorry to say that I have encountered many "professionals" at local dealers who are not as informed as some of the laypeople here. A lot of these professionals also seem to push ozone, Baqua, SoftSoak, the Natural, Nature2 and other alternative programs. One has to wonder if that advice is based on a belief that the alternatives to chlorine/bromine are better, or just better margins. Face to face in a store, an unprepared customer may go home with a box of chemicals that may not keep the tub any cleaner, but costs 3 times as much. At least on a forum like this, bad advice may get challenged by another member.
It's all opinions based on experience. Some are trained better than other and some make assumptions. It happens at every level of every industry. How "informed" am I do you think? Would you base that on this one thread? Again...it's an opinion right? If I’m being questioned for suggesting that people bath in recommended sanitizer levels, there’s something wrong here?
As I said, the program I use is somewhere in between your advice and Bill's, so I don't disagee with you entirely, just as I don't agree with the Bill/Vermonter approach entirely, either -- I just am not sure that it is so clear cut that it needed a proclamation in 18 pt type;), and what I took as a condescending attitude toward some of the more thoughtful members of this forum.
We all realize that this format can lead to misinterpretations and misunderstandings. There was no tone in my post. I will suggest to you however, that my statement is 100% accurate and extremely important enough to have it in even larger font...
[size=36]It is unsafe to get into hot water with no sanitizer. [/size]
I can only hope that it makes some realize the importance of a sanitizer. Suggesting otherwise is irresponsible and dangerous. I’ve been on this forum for many years and though water has never changed in its chemistry, there’s certainly new beliefs out there that I question and will continue to if it is irresponsible and dangerous. It wasn’t directed at anyone and I would appreciate it if you weren’t so melodramatic in your assumptions. ::)
Steve
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Sounds like we are all in agreement that it is nice to be in water with as little chlorine as possible, and that we all agree that achieving a higher ppm (3-5-more) after soaking is a good idea. Where we vary is the definition of "as little chlorine as possible." Some of us want that to be zero, others want to know they have a little residual sanitizer still left. I would estimate that I soak with 0ppm about 1/2 the time, but it cannot stay at 0ppm for long because of my frequency of use. If I soak less often, I have to dose a little chlorine between uses- every other day or so. I think I can get away with my routine because 1) I am almost it's only user, and 2) I am careful that if I go more than a day and a 1/2 without using it, I add a little chlorine. It is rare for me not to use it at least every other day, but when I was fairly sick and light headed for a few days in a row, I did not use the tub, and I just forgot to attend to it. Yep- got cloudy water. If I anticipate visitors to use the tub (this has only happened 3 times! My friends just dont appreciate hot water!) I make sure it is at 1-3 ppm first.
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And without arguing for or against what's been posted, I'd like to just mention that Bama had some "stank" issues not so long ago, which were resolved by smaller doses after each soak, which maintained some residual of dichlor when she next used the tub, instead of one larger dose at the end of the day, where she wound up soaking in 0 (or -) chlorine levels....
Just an observation, no argument intended here....(mark your calendar!!)
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" Some of us want that to be zero, others want to know they have a little residual sanitizer still left..
In over a decade of experience and 10's of thousands of water tests, I have never met anyone who didn't want some form of sanitizer in their spa especially while they are in it. I can however tell many stories of pseudomonas contamination with people who wished they could have achieved a normal reading of sanitizer...
Zero levels at ANY time open the door for bacteria, foaming, cloudiness and "stank" as it was wonderfully put! ;D
Steve
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Our usage is so uniform (me every morning, wife and I every evening) that over time I've learned what works for us - 2 tbls of chlorine once / week to raise chlorine level to above 5 ppm, and about 1 1/2 tsp of dichlor every other or third day. Crystal-clear, odor-free water. Average testing in mid-day of .5 ppm or less on average.
.5 seems to be just at my threshold for chlorine smell, so that is where I keep it. No cooties in 14 years of usage with this. Our tap water averages about .6 ppm, and I can smell it. Our friend who is the chief chemist for the LV water district has no qualms about getting in our spa, so I don't either... (and he occasionally brings really cool test strips that show free chlorine to every .2 ppm)
John F
LV, NV
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...What is clean to you and how are you making this assumption? If you are like most, you will base it on the clarity of the water. BIG MISTAKE! Battery acid is clear.It's a common mistake so don't feel bad. ...The suggestion that safe, recommended sanitizer levels could be construed as a “chemical stew” is laughable. It lacks watercare knowledge...
How "informed" am I do you think? Would you base that on this one thread?...
I would appreciate it if you weren’t so melodramatic in your assumptions.
It seems there is only room for one opinion in this thread ::), so I guess commenting on your assumptions, the context of some of your comments, and yes -- "tone", whether intended or not, will only add fuel to the fire. Let's just say I disagree with some of the statements I quoted, and found them curious since the majority of my post agreed with you.
I will however, answer your question about how "informed" I think you are. I have observed your posts on a variety of topics that indicate you have a lot of knowledge/experience in the spa industry. That makes you credible, but IMO so are Bill Stevenson, Vermonter, N1oty and many others who suggest an approach that differs slightly from yours. The fact that their view of adequate sanitation varies from yours doesn't bother me -- as I said, I find pieces of both in the program I use, and I am confident that I am maintaining a clean, safe tub, (how I know that is a topic for another post -- actually I have posted on the topic before, if you care to search) while minimizing my exposure to halogens. I appreciate that you are trying to make folks aware that the "soak in minimal chlorine" approach is not conventional wisdom, I just think there is room for respectful discussion on the topic, and most of us can figure out the important points, whether they are in large font or not. ;)
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It seems there is only room for one opinion in this thread ::), so I guess commenting on your assumptions, the context of some of your comments, and yes -- "tone", whether intended or not, will only add fuel to the fire. Let's just say I disagree with some of the statements I quoted, and found them curious since the majority of my post agreed with you.
I will however, answer your question about how "informed" I think you are. I have observed your posts on a variety of topics that indicate you have a lot of knowledge/experience in the spa industry. That makes you credible, but IMO so are Bill Stevenson, Vermonter, N1oty and many others who suggest an approach that differs slightly from yours. The fact that their view of adequate sanitation varies from yours doesn't bother me -- as I said, I find pieces of both in the program I use, and I am confident that I am maintaining a clean, safe tub, (how I know that is a topic for another post -- actually I have posted on the topic before, if you care to search) while minimizing my exposure to halogens. I appreciate that you are trying to make folks aware that the "soak in minimal chlorine" approach is not conventional wisdom, I just think there is room for respectful discussion on the topic, and most of us can figure out the important points, whether they are in large font or not. ;)
There are many credible people on this forum (including yourself) in the form of industry professionals and owners alike. I agree with what you've said and that's my opinion. No room for any more! :P ;)
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Steve,
You are full of misinformation and this is not the first time. The Vermonter is a chemist whose profession is water treatment. I am a chemical engineer. Neither of us in in the hot tub business and we donate time here to help people with spa questions. What are your credentials? I know you sell spas, what else?
As to your question, of course it is safe to get into hot water that does not have sanitizer in it as long as there is little to no bacteria in it. That is the trick and the ingenious part of the Vermonter's regime. By treating the water after the soak, the bugs are eradicated, leaving the water clean and safe. It will stay that way for a day or so and then the water must be re-treated.
BTW, unless you've changed, you don't even use dichlor, so why are you even involved in this discusssion?
Bill
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Steve,
You are full of misinformation and this is not the first time. The Vermonter is a chemist whose profession is water treatment. I am a chemical engineer. Neither of us in in the hot tub business and we donate time here to help people with spa questions. What are your credentials? I know you sell spas, what else?
As to your question, of course it is safe to get into hot water that does not have sanitizer in it as long as there is little to no bacteria in it. That is the trick and the ingenious part of the Vermonter's regime. By treating the water after the soak, the bugs are eradicated, leaving the water clean and safe. It will stay that way for a day or so and then the water must be re-treated.
BTW, unless you've changed, you don't even use dichlor, so why are you even involved in this discusssion?
Bill
Billy, Billy, Billy... ::) I find it dangerous that you come here and promote things you know little about. You are even more dangerous than JA but at least he understands the basics of watercare. You need to be extremely careful promoting your drivel. It fly’s in the face of logic, safety and responsibility to consumers. You are suggesting that everyone carelessly disregard safety regulations that are based on knowledge and far greater credentials than yours so if we're playing THAT game, I suggest spa owners act responsibly and adhere to those guidelines. You're just some no-name on a spa forum... :-X
In other words, please refrain from "donating your time here" if you choose to continue promoting unproven chemical treatments.
Don't get me going about engineers... Just typing the word doesn't impress me if that's what you were going for... ::)
You ask about my credentials? I sell spas? Seems you have an abundance of misinformation... I use to sell spas but now I have a business consulting company specific to the world of hot tubs and have done for the past 4 years. Try and keep up! :) I have listed my credentials so help yourself to a search. You might learn something! ;D
Your statement was: As to your question, of course it is safe to get into hot water that does not have sanitizer in it as long as there is little to no bacteria in it. That is the trick and the ingenious part of the Vermonter's regime. By treating the water after the soak, the bugs are eradicated, leaving the water clean and safe. It will stay that way for a day or so and then the water must be re-treated.
It's swiss cheese Bill. Take a poll and ask how many people here have the skill or equipment to test for bacteria? That's a ridiculous comment and you should be embarrassed by it. :o
So the key is to "eradicate" (easy with the big words as I'm just spa salesman) :D the bugs AFTER use? Have 'em float'n around like mad while we're all in there but as long as it's safe and clear afterwards? Give your head a shake... ::) So it will stay that way for a day or so but then do we use it "as is" or do we treat it prior to getting in again?
The sanitizer system utilized in a spa (as long as it's approved for use) is irrelevant as only the ppm varies and not the overall concept of clean, safe water for bathers. Again Bill...that's very basic stuff...
Steve
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So much for "respectful discussion"! :o
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Billy, Billy, Billy... ::) I find it dangerous that you come here and promote things you know little about. You are even more dangerous than JA but at least he understands the basics of watercare. You need to be extremely careful promoting your drivel. It fly’s in the face of logic, safety and responsibility to consumers. You are suggesting that everyone carelessly disregard safety regulations that are based on knowledge and far greater credentials than yours so if we're playing THAT game, I suggest spa owners act responsibly and adhere to those guidelines. You're just some no-name on a spa forum... :-X
In other words, please refrain from "donating your time here" if you choose to continue promoting unproven chemical treatments.
Don't get me going about engineers... Just typing the word doesn't impress me if that's what you were going for... ::)
You ask about my credentials? I sell spas? Seems you have an abundance of misinformation... I use to sell spas but now I have a business consulting company specific to the world of hot tubs and have done for the past 4 years. Try and keep up! :) I have listed my credentials so help yourself to a search. You might learn something! ;D
Your statement was: As to your question, of course it is safe to get into hot water that does not have sanitizer in it as long as there is little to no bacteria in it. That is the trick and the ingenious part of the Vermonter's regime. By treating the water after the soak, the bugs are eradicated, leaving the water clean and safe. It will stay that way for a day or so and then the water must be re-treated.
It's swiss cheese Bill. Take a poll and ask how many people here have the skill or equipment to test for bacteria? That's a ridiculous comment and you should be embarrassed by it. :o
So the key is to "eradicate" (easy with the big words as I'm just spa salesman) :D the bugs AFTER use? Have 'em float'n around like mad while we're all in there but as long as it's safe and clear afterwards? Give your head a shake... ::) So it will stay that way for a day or so but then do we use it "as is" or do we treat it prior to getting in again?
The sanitizer system utilized in a spa (as long as it's approved for use) is irrelevant as only the ppm varies and not the overall concept of clean, safe water for bathers. Again Bill...that's very basic stuff...
Steve
THERE IS NOT A MORE IMPORTANT SUBJECT REGARDING HOT TUBS THAN WATER SAFTEY!
I have the greatest respect for Steve who has been contributing to this form for a very long time with well informed, professional and balanced information.
He has helped a great many readers, including me.
Steve's advice is very sound indeed.
For every degree of increase in temperature, water borne bacteria increases exponentially. One would be crazy not to use a sanitizer. This is a problem with swimming pools at 70 degrees, just think what 102 degrees is capable of breeding without a sanitizer!
In Canada we have a Swimming, Wading and hot tub act to establish a minimum ppm of chlorine to protect the public's health.
There have been numerous reports of skin rashes, and even death from Legionnaires disease caused from unsanitary hot tubs.
To suggest not using a sanitizer to maintain a minimum level is just ill-informed and irresponsible.
Regards, Zz :)
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I have respect for all the professionals and experienced owners here who help to make all of us comfortable with water care, but your attitude, Steve, just fell down a notch in my book. Perhaps Bill came across a little strong, but this was unnecessary, childish bickering:
Billy, Billy, Billy... ::) I find it dangerous that you come here and promote things you know little about. You are even more dangerous than JA but at least he understands the basics of watercare. You need to be extremely careful promoting your drivel. It fly’s in the face of logic, safety and responsibility to consumers. You are suggesting that everyone carelessly disregard safety regulations that are based on knowledge and far greater credentials than yours so if we're playing THAT game, I suggest spa owners act responsibly and adhere to those guidelines. You're just some no-name on a spa forum... :-X
In other words, please refrain from "donating your time here" if you choose to continue promoting unproven chemical treatments.
I'd ask you to refrain from "donating your time here" if you choose to treat people so rudely. You are fully entitled to disagree with anyone you want to, but comparing someone to JA, and accusing someone of "careless disregard" is a bit over the top.
For what it is worth, I appreciate your knowledge and experience, but not when it is handed out in this manner.
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I hate to jump in here anne, but I thought both got a little carried away with the sarcasism. Don't get mad at Steve for returning a punch. Was it justifiable? YES
Could it have been said a little nicer? YES, but why would he when Bill didn't?
Other than that I'm :-X . I'll leave the technical stuff to the experts.
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I have tremendous respect for Steve and Bill.
But it's funny how this has escalated to an almost argument when both are correct. Except us seasoned bathers know the regulations for a hot tub environment DOES REQUIRE a chlorine residual before soaking in a commercial hot tub, this is why feeders and triclor or bromine are used commercialy and us service guys work on them alot because seals, plumbing, and lots of stuff gets eaten alive by trichlor. But residentialy you are allowed to service your own water and I truely do think it is a safe idea to try and reduce your chlorine exposure level as much as you as the owner and responsible party feel comfortable with. Simple. I have several friends that I enojoy soaking with, before I soak in there tub I want to know there sanitizer routine, and most are smart enough to ask mine. This is to protect me.
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I appreciate your comments you guys and it's great to see you post ZZ! Thanks for that.
I responded in kind to someone who suggested I was "full of misinformation". If you've read a few of my 2000+ posts, I speak my mind and offer the same level of respect I am shown. I doubt that will ever change... ;) It's not a popularity contest Ann but yes, I am very passionate about giving the consumers here quality information based on set guidelines that are proven to be safe when it comes to watercare. As ZZ pointed out, there is no more important subject regarding hot tubs than watercare and he is oh so right!!! Suggesting otherwise is just careless.
I hope you can hear me from all the way down here Ann... ;)
[size=10]It is unsafe to get into hot water with no sanitizer. [/size] ;) ;D
Steve
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[size=10]It is unsafe to get into hot water with no sanitizer. [/size]
So, Steve, extrapolating from the above statement, what is the minimum amount of chlorine to be safe? .000001 ppm? .01? .1? 1?
I am a firm believer that Vermonter's method is sound and should be considered excellent practice. Of course we can't economically measure chlorine to the millionth of ppm but the idea of "chlorine-free" indeed includes .000001 ppm or maybe .01 or maybe even .1 ppm.
Methinks the spirit is being missed over the letter.....
And out of my respect for the wonderful advice that both you and Bill provide at this site, I think a "kiss and make up" session is in order..... :-*
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So, Steve, extrapolating from the above statement, what is the minimum amount of chlorine to be safe? .000001 ppm? .01? .1? 1?
The recognized safe chlorine levels for use in a residential hot tub are 1-3ppm. For the bromine users, it would be 3-5ppm.
Understanding that 1 person in a spa uses 1ppm of sanitizer every 15 minutes, I'll let you do the math as to what's safe... :-X
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[size=10]It is unsafe to get into hot water with no sanitizer. [/size] ;) ;D
That's where the O3 system comes into play.
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You bet! O3 is a great oxidizer (not sanitizer) which can reduce chlorine or bromine usage assuming you have a reading. How much does it help or reduce that usage? We just don't have clear data on that... I'd love to see it if someone does though.
Steve
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You bet! O3 is a great oxidizer (not sanitizer) which can reduce chlorine or bromine usage assuming you have a reading. How much does it help or reduce that usage? We just don't have clear data on that... I'd love to see it if someone does though.
Steve
Steve, what is the differance between Oxidizer and sanitizer in the context of Hot tubs? Oxicizers will burn off dead organic matter, but I was also under the impression that it does indeed efectivly kill bacteria (which I take as sanitiation). SO it's my understanidng that O3 is BOth an oxidizer AND a sanitizer.
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The recognized safe chlorine levels for use in a residential hot tub are 1-3ppm. For the bromine users, it would be 3-5ppm.
Understanding that 1 person in a spa uses 1ppm of sanitizer every 15 minutes, I'll let you do the math as to what's safe... :-X
So you are saying that to safely soak in my tub for one hour by myself (not a unusual occurance for me) that I have to start off with 4 ppm in order to be safe? And, should my wife soak with me, we would need to start off with 8 ppm? I think your math and your assertions are seriously flawed.
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I hate to jump in here anne, but I thought both got a little carried away with the sarcasism. Don't get mad at Steve for returning a punch. Was it justifiable? YES
Could it have been said a little nicer? YES, but why would he when Bill didn't?
Other than that I'm :-X . I'll leave the technical stuff to the experts.
Your right, I reread it, and they both got carried away, so my apologies to Steve for singling him out.....shame on both of you! ;)
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The recognized safe chlorine levels for use in a residential hot tub are 1-3ppm. For the bromine users, it would be 3-5ppm.
Understanding that 1 person in a spa uses 1ppm of sanitizer every 15 minutes, I'll let you do the math as to what's safe...
OK, let's do some math. If I'm understanding you -- in order for a tub to be safe, there has to be sanitizer present at all times... so, if 4 people are going to use the tub for 30 minutes, you need to start with a residual of 8 ppm? :o Or do you recommend starting at 3 ppm and adding a 3 ppm dose every 10 minutes while everyone is still in the tub? :o :o If not, the sanitizer will be depleted, and you will be in a tub not much different than what a single user practicing the Vermonter approach experiences.
IMO, there are practical limits to even your conventional approach, just as there are risks/limitations that aren't discussed often enough when people recommend the "Vermonter approach". It seems to me that neither of you were guilty of "misinformation", just failing to recognize that there are other viewpoints that are worthy of consideration. :P
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So you are saying that to safely soak in my tub for one hour by myself (not a unusual occurance for me) that I have to start off with 4 ppm in order to be safe? And, should my wife soak with me, we would need to start off with 8 ppm? I think your math and your assertions are seriously flawed.
What I am relaying here is not the "STEVE" method of watercare but instead the basic teachings of watercare and how bathers effect it. Don't shoot the messenger! ;)
Look back on all the posts of cloudy, smelly, foamy water. This situation occurs when people don't realize how they effect not only the water, but also their sanitizer as well as relying far too much on ozone. Again, I'm in total agreement that it's good practice to add a small dose of dichlor, bromine or whatever your sanitizer is after use. It's called being proactive as opposed to reactive once your water has gone south on you.
Though it's implied that I'm making this stuff up as I go along, in reality, it's common knowledge with basic watercare.
I think people are missing this. It's not that I'm against the vermonter method or the suggestion of utilizing the spa with as little chemicals as possible. It's also widely misunderstood that having a chlorine reading of 1-3 ppm will NOT cause you to be sitting in a chemical stew nor will it create an overpowering smell of chlorine. It's more to do with overall water balance which again, is terribly misunderstood!
When people understand how they affect their sanitizer with the aforementioned accurate numbers, then they can begin to enjoy their spa and maintain their water quality much better. That's all my windblown friend.... ::)
Steve
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Your right, I reread it, and they both got carried away, so my apologies to Steve for singling him out.....shame on both of you! ;)
LOL... no problem Anne. As you can tell, I'm fairly thick skinned! ;) One has to be to deal with this unruly bunch! I apologize for stepping out of line but when my character and experience is being questioned and it's put forth in a demeaning way that Bill is known to do, I will respond.
In essence, all I'm doing is pointing out basic watercare here and in the end, people will do what they want. The reality is that I don't have to bathe with them! ;D
Steve
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...Though it's implied that I'm making this stuff up as I go along...
And to think you called me melodramatic! ;) ::) Other than the personal beef that you and Bill seem to have, I don't think anyone is implying anything. Just because other folks have a different take on this, it doesn't mean that they disrespect you -- at least not until you joined in the name-calling. :P
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I agree with Steve, too many here view the "Vermonter" method as gospel. Calculate the sanitizer level so it is near zero just before you go in? How many use their spa on a schedule? Sometimes I use it 2-3 times a week, sometimes 7, sometimes 4-5 days with no use at all. The "Vermonter" method sounds difficult at best and unsanitary at worst.
How many allow their swimming pools chlorine levels to go to zero? How many call their swimming pools "chemical stew"?
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I agree with Steve, too many here view the "Vermonter" method as gospel. Calculate the sanitizer level so it is near zero just before you go in? How many use their spa on a schedule? Sometimes I use it 2-3 times a week, sometimes 7, sometimes 4-5 days with no use at all. The "Vermonter" method sounds difficult at best and unsanitary at worst.
How many allow their swimming pools chlorine levels to go to zero? How many call their swimming pools "chemical stew"?
I tell you what...considering Vermonter's professional background and experience as well as his attention to detail when commenting on spa sanitization, I'll gladly trust his opinions and, yes, even consider them "gospel".
Difficult? Unsanitary? Your statements are laughable. I suggest you get at least a few qualifications before making assertions like that...as of now I've seen none from you. You'll have to do more than just soaking at a Holiday Inn Express...
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I'm just a humble homeowner with a spa, never claimed any expertise and you'll never see me giving water chemistry advice, Windsurfdog. Your post does not surprise me though. As for Vermonter, he seems to have vast knowledge, unlike yourself, and presents it logically and without bias. As for Steve, he sounds equally knowledgable and logical, and I agree with his approach. As for Gospel? nope, but you can feel free to genuflect.
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I have read posts that consider Vermonters system difficult to execute though I have never attempted it myself. On the other hand, I know that some have tried it with success.
I have had the honor of being schooled by one of the best in our industry that many here would know. Dr.Bob was amazing and it was him that provided the information that I have referenced in this thread. I'll take THAT as gospel.
The wonderful aspect of forums and message boards is that people will choose what they deem to be best for them. Even JA has followers right? If it works for you, keep on doing it. I'm not here to change anyone's method if what they're doing is offering them success but rather to provide information and cause people to think. I'll bet Reese's anual salary that many here didn't realize the impact they have on their sanitizer! ;)
Thanks for the kind words BTW Repeat Offender. ;)
Steve
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Steve, what is the differance between Oxidizer and sanitizer in the context of Hot tubs? Oxicizers will burn off dead organic matter, but I was also under the impression that it does indeed efectivly kill bacteria (which I take as sanitiation). SO it's my understanidng that O3 is BOth an oxidizer AND a sanitizer.
I have never seen data that backs up that assumption drewstar but I am willing to alter my beliefs if I am incorrect...
Steve
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I have been sorely tempted to leave this thread alone as it has become unpleasant and I have allowed myself to react inappropriately. I apologize to all of you for my part in the deterioration of the discussion. There is a lot of misinformation here, however, and a lot of people would be left in a state of confusion if I did not try to clarify the situation. I will make an attempt.
Drewstar asked for clarification between oxidizers and sanitizers and made the correct assumption that ozone is both. An oxidizer is a substance that combines chemically with another substance and in the process gives up oxygen. Examples would be eating sugars and in digestion giving off water and carbon dioxide in our bodies. Another would be water reacting with iron and forming rust. Oxidizers are effective at killing bacteria. Sanitizers can be any substance that cleans or another way of putting it would be sterilizes. In the case of our spas and pools, a sanitizer removes or renders harmless the little microbes that could be harmful. So a sanitizer may or may not be an oxidizer, but all oxidizers could be considered sanitizers. I hope that helps end that bit of confusion.
With respect to the comments about dichlor, which is a sanitizer, no one, least of all me, said that sanitzers should not be used. I recommend the Vermonter's water treatment approach. It is not the only approach, but it is a very effective one, and despite insinuations to the contrary it is a well proven one. Anyone who follows it will find it easy to use and they will stay safe. The Vermonter is a water chemist by education and work. He is a professional and he can be trusted in this matter.
Next, the discussion devolved around the issue of the importance for a residual of sanitizer in the spa. Here there is confusion and upon reflection I suspect that this confusion might stem from a misunderstanding about the nature of halogens and how they work. Specifically, dichlor is a very powerful halogen, so powerful that the establishment of a concentration in the range of 1-3 ppm is sufficient to reduce bacteria levels to negligible values in a few hours. That is the good news because dichlor breaks down in water at the elevated tempertures found in our spas. In other words it goes away in a matter of hours after being added to the spa. If a dichlor user tried to maintain a 1-3 ppm of dichlor at all times, they would find the experience very frustrating and really too much. Fortunately it is not necessary as the dichlor kills bacteria so effectively that it is possible to safely enter water with free chlorine residuals below the 1-3 ppm level. This comment presumes regular use several times a week and is based on a very rigorous test program that proved it. Again refer to the Vermonter's recommendations for details.
The other powerful halogen in common use for spas is bromine. Although not as powerful as chlorine, bromine tolerates the temperatures in our spas much better than dichlor. This difference between these two equally effective halogens is perhaps at the root of the confusion in this thread. Bromine, because it is less powerful than dichlor, requires a residual of ~ 3-5 ppm and it is important to maintain this bromine residual at all times. Because bromine tolerates the relatively higher water temperatures found in spas, this is practical and easily managed.
In the end, both solutions are safe and effective when applied properly. With bromine a residual is necessary at all times to keep bacteria levels at safe levels. With free chlorine it is not practical, nor necessary to maintain residuals in the same manner. Those of you who have pointed out that they add dichlor based on frequency of use, or to compensate for multiple users have the proper perspective. This is not difficult to do, and reflects a good understanding of water treatment using dichlor.
In short if you are a bromine user you are accustomed to maintaining a residual on a constant basis to control bacteria to safe levels. This is easy to do and very effective. If you are a dichlor user you are used to adding dichlor on a reasonably frequent basis (based on usage) and know that the residual of free chlorine when set at 1-3 ppm after soaking will diminish over several hours. I hope this further explanation helps.
Regards,
Bill
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I'm just a humble homeowner with a spa, never claimed any expertise and you'll never see me giving water chemistry advice, Windsurfdog.
Except, of course, advice/opinions that are contrary to one who "seems to have vast knowledge".
Your post does not surprise me though. As for Vermonter, he seems to have vast knowledge, unlike yourself, and presents it logically and without bias.
Glad to see our mutual admiration continues. Maybe one day the same logic without bias will enter your life...I'll not hold my breath.
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Did I say mellow out and do it how ever you want yet?
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Did I say mellow out and do it how ever you want yet?
No not yet... would ya mind? :-/
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OK, guys mellow out and do it however you feel safe doing it. If it works and your not emerging from you soaks with skurvy, rickettsor liasons, your good!!!!
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.....I'll not hold my breath.
Somehow I'll live with the disappointment of that thought...
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An interesting thread - to say the least.
I'd like to address several themes / issues that have cropped up. I'll do so briefly, but would be happy to respond (as best I can) to specific questions. Please feel free to ask...
1) One of the truly great things about forums such as this or Doc's at rhtubs.com is that it allows individuals, with diverse backgrounds and diverse areas of expertise, to come together and post on matters that are, in many cases, of common interest to tub owners.
2) I will be the first to acknowledge that there are a number of areas that deal with various facets of tub construction, operation, etc. that I do not have expertise on - and, in general, you will not find me posting about those topics. If I do post, I always try to qualify my posts with IMO, from my experience, etc.
3) From a microbiological standpoint - not only from a microbiological safety standpoint but also from the standpoint of understanding disinfection kinetics - I have a strong working knowledge of what works for hot tubs and why. IMO, this is based on many years of experience of owning an environmental microbiology laboratory as well as hands-on experience in microbial control in various types of water systems ranging from high-purity water systems for the semiconductor and pharmaceutical industry as well as for drinking water (and wastewater - industrial and sanitary) systems. My firm, and I, have conducted hundreds of microbiological challenge studies in which manufacturers' treatment devices - whether chemical, UV, physical (i.e. filtration), etc. are tested for efficacy; either to in-house techniques or nationally/internationally recognized standards for efficacy on bacteria, viruses, fungi and protozoans.
4) Given my statement in #3, I feel well qualified to give recommendations concerning the microbiological safety of hot tubs. I have no experience with bromine - and you won't find me posting on that. However, with chlorine and ozone (these two, in particular), I have extensive experience and I qualified to discuss and provide input in these areas.
5) Within this thread there have been references to "water care" experts, etc. Within the overall domain of hot tub care, I do not feel that "water care" experts necessarily translates to ANY expertise - theoretical or practical - in the field of hot tub disinfection.
6) My so-called "Vermonter" method was originally generated as a simple response to a question from a tub owner who was confused about how to use dichlor for routine maintenance as well as for shocking of their tub. It was not written as, nor meant to be strictly interpreted as a treatise on chlorine disinfection of hot tubs. However, back when I wrote it - and now - based on my overall microbiological experience and knowledge as well as more than 5 years of hot tub ownership - I am still comfortable with its accuracy and its univerality for hot tub owners using a dichlor regimen.
7) My method is dependent on starting with an intially clean tub and then following my recommendations closely. Factors such as pH, making sure that all wetted surfaces have contact with the dichlor treated water, etc. are critical. My personal feeling is that it is an extremely easy method to follow - but you need to read it and understand the key points. For instance, I do not subscribe to "adding 1 teaspoon (or whatever)" as the treatment approach. Rather, I specify that you dose to 2 - 3 ppm of free chlorine with a pH of 7.5 or less (and circulate through all pumps, valves, diverters, etc.). I also recommend that the normal shock performed be a dichlor shock - instead of a MPS shock. Shocking with dichlor gives a super chlorination / disinfection - something that is not provided at all by MPS (it is not a disinfectant in any way, shape or form).
8) A concern expressed has been that what might be a legitimate approach for personal or family use might not be "legitmate" for group use or "friends'" use. While, from a microbiological standpoint, I have some doubt as to the validity of that concern, I certainly think it is valid from a "comfort" level and agree that modification of my method is perfectly acceptable.
9) A concern has been expressed about what happens if you are soaking in low (or non-existant) levels of chlorine following the routine treatment of the tub. First, if the routine treatment is proper - as it will be if you follow my method - there is no need for concern about microbes within the tub when you open it up to use it. If the concern is about the bacteria or viruses present on the surface of your body when you climb into the tub...my OPINION is certainly that you don't need to worry about it. You have bacteria on your skin when you get in the tub - you'll have bacteria on your skin (probably less - a lot less) when you leave the tub. Unless you ingest the tub water or have open sores, the liklihood of any microbial related problems is practically non-exitant.
10) My word count is fast reaching an end here - so I'll start to wrap up for now.
11) If you, as a tubowner, are concerned about microbial safety resulting from getting into disinfected water that has a low or non-existant chorine level - then you certainly can add dichlor before you use it. If you choose to do so only when friends are over - that's fine, too.
12) I stand by my recommended procedure - but will be happy to answer any questions or concerns.
Best regards,
Vermonter
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One day we will have a drink together. I just have this picture in my head of a 5'10" medium build guy with one hand in the pocket of a lab coat and the other holding a clip board, with small framed glasses and a pocket protector. Walking slowly but surerdly and talking softly but confidently.
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given the direction of this thread, I think this bears repeteing:
[I}
9) A concern has been expressed about what happens if you are soaking in low (or non-existant) levels of chlorine following the routine treatment of the tub. First, [glow]if the routine treatment is proper[/glow] as it will be if you follow my method - [glow]there is no need for concern about microbes within the tub when you open it up to use it.[/glow] If the concern is about the bacteria or viruses present on the surface of your body when you climb into the tub...my OPINION is certainly that you don't need to worry about it. You have bacteria on your skin when you get in the tub - you'll have bacteria on your skin (probably less - a lot less) when you leave the tub. Unless you ingest the tub water or have open sores, the liklihood of any microbial related problems is practically non-exitant.[/i]
Thanks Vermonter.
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Thanks Vermonter, very well explained.
My question is: what is the routine for testing, in what order should testing be done?
Calcium first?
PH second?
Chlorine third?
ETC. I'm just not sure.
Thank you.
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My question is: what is the routine for testing, in what order should testing be done?
Test sanitizer and pH first, because extreme values in those components can affect other test results. As far as using the results to balance the water... IMO, that depends on the starting values. If pH/TA are low, it makes sense to start with Alkalinity. If pH is high, I'd get that down first. Don't add calcium to high pH water, because it will tend to precipitate out and form scale.
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Test sanitizer and pH first, because extreme values in those components can affect other test results. As far as using the results to balance the water... IMO, that depends on the starting values. If pH/TA are low, it makes sense to start with Alkalinity. If pH is high, I'd get that down first. Don't add calcium to high pH water, because it will tend to precipitate out and form scale.
What if both alk and pH are high? Do you still recommend adjusting pH first Reese?
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What if both alk and pH are high? Do you still recommend adjusting pH first Reese?
Given all your knowledge and years of experience, I suspect this is a test :-?, but I'll play along...
Well, when you add acid, you are going to bring them both down, so you can say you are working on whichever one you want. ;) In my experience, you have to get the TA down below 100 before you have much LT impact on pH. I think the real question is what to do when pH is high, and TA is low, or vice-versa. You either have to find the right ratio of acid/carbonate to slowly move things in the right direction, or ignore TA until you get the pH where you want it. I personally don't worry about TA unless pH is low or unstable, and then try to build TA as a buffer, but then I start with off the charts high pH/TA.
By the way, Steve... you never responded to my question regarding what to do to maintain a safe sanitizer level while entertaining. I was prepared to let it go, but since you are still in the thread... :)
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Mmmmmm, guess I need another 12 years before I get it right? :-/
[size=18]It is unsafe to get into hot water with no sanitizer.[/size]
Does anyone disagree? :o
My bathtub isn't safe? I'm just now reading this thread to see why its gone on so long.
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Given all your knowledge and years of experience, I suspect this is a test :-?, but I'll play along...
Well, when you add acid, you are going to bring them both down, so you can say you are working on whichever one you want. ;) In my experience, you have to get the TA down below 100 before you have much LT impact on pH. I think the real question is what to do when pH is high, and TA is low, or vice-versa. You either have to find the right ratio of acid/carbonate to slowly move things in the right direction, or ignore TA until you get the pH where you want it. I personally don't worry about TA unless pH is low or unstable, and then try to build TA as a buffer, but then I start with off the charts high pH/TA.
By the way, Steve... you never responded to my question regarding what to do to maintain a safe sanitizer level while entertaining. I was prepared to let it go, but since you are still in the thread... :)
No need to get paranoid on me Reese... it was just a question there bud! ;) I don't pretend to know it all and I'm open to new insight if it makes sense. I've learnt a great deal from this site and I share what I know. That's the format right? I've always taught to adjust alk first and then slowly adjust pH into range with smaller doses as to not affect alk as much regardless of whether it was high or low. You're a sharp guy Reese and I respect that. It wasn't a test but rather an inquiry into your wisdom and methodology... :)
Now to your question.. (sorry, I didn't ignore you on purpose and I'm more than happy to share this with you and the readers)...
When we entertain, I certainly make sure my levels are in proper range prior to entering. I have a good handle on my water conditioning and take a proactive approach as mentioned. If the entertaining goes on for many hours, it's not uncommon to have a "break" at some point during the evening at which time I will test and add a small dose of sanitizer in between use. Once the tub is done being used for the night, I shock it. I may rinse the filters that night or the following morning and retest at that time.
Let me know if there's something out of the ordinary there and I'll elaborate if required.
Steve
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My bathtub isn't safe? I'm just now reading this thread to see why its gone on so long.
No it's not Bill!
Any idea how many accidents happen in the bathtub every year?!?! :o
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No it's not Bill!
Any idea how many accidents happen in the bathtub every year?!?! :o
That how I got a little brother.
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I dunno... I think the squeaking noise would wreck my concentration... :D
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No need to get paranoid on me Reese...
Good, I'm glad that the unpleasantness of the last couple of days is over. I just figured given your certainty on the sanitizer issue -- and how you reacted to my opinions earlier, there was no way you'd actually solicit them. ;) :)
I know that most guides say to adjust alkalinity first, but from my own experience, starting at a high pH may require a different approach. Given my high pH/TA water, I usually notice threads that address those issues. It seems a lot of people get frustrated trying to get pH down and maintain recommended TA levels at the same time -- trapped in a loop of acid doses, followed by baking soda to raise TA, followed by more acid to compensate for the pH rise from the soda, etc. I find that if I focus on the pH, allowing acid doses time to interact with the carbonates fully before testing/dosing again, and using unbuffered MPS when shocking to take advantage of its low pH... by the time I get pH to hold where I want, my TA is usually on the low side of normal, without having addressed it at all. 8-) From there, when pH drifts down, I use make-up water and/or baking soda to build TA. I've considered using trichlor as a sanitizer while the pH is high to take advantage of its low pH, but haven't gone that far in fine-tuning my routine... nor have I considered returning to low pH bromine, because my wife doesn't like it. Regardless of how well the water is maintained, she notices a bromine smell.
Your approach to sanitizer during a entertaining is similar to mine, but that still likely leaves the tub without a sanitizer residual at some point. I believe Vermonter addressed that adequately in his post, so let's move on. Now, as far as wagering my salary... :o
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Good, I'm glad that the unpleasantness of the last couple of days is over. I just figured given your certainty on the sanitizer issue -- and how you reacted to my opinions earlier, there was no way you'd actually solicit them. ;) :)
Oh, I'm still certain of my method and its effectiveness for my application... ;)
I know that most guides say to adjust alkalinity first, but from my own experience, starting at a high pH may require a different approach. Given my high pH/TA water, I usually notice threads that address those issues. It seems a lot of people get frustrated trying to get pH down and maintain recommended TA levels at the same time -- trapped in a loop of acid doses, followed by baking soda to raise TA, followed by more acid to compensate for the pH rise from the soda, etc. I find that if I focus on the pH, allowing acid doses time to interact with the carbonates fully before testing/dosing again, and using unbuffered MPS when shocking to take advantage of its low pH... by the time I get pH to hold where I want, my TA is usually on the low side of normal, without having addressed it at all. 8-) From there, when pH drifts down, I use make-up water and/or baking soda to build TA. I've considered using trichlor as a sanitizer while the pH is high to take advantage of its low pH, but haven't gone that far in fine-tuning my routine... nor have I considered returning to low pH bromine, because my wife doesn't like it. Regardless of how well the water is maintained, she notices a bromine smell.
I find that people do tend to micromanage their water and often over compensate when adding product as the result is not immediate for pH, alk and hardness.
Your approach to sanitizer during a entertaining is similar to mine, but that still likely leaves the tub without a sanitizer residual at some point. I believe Vermonter addressed that adequately in his post, so let's move on. Now, as far as wagering my salary... :o
Glad ya caught that! ;) ;D
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.....yeah what everyone else said and don't forget to use a chlorine floater opened up to the 4th hole.........never mind wrong horse to beat.
Only in Canada eh!!!!
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I couldn't help thinking of this thread as I did my weekly check this a.m. I thought about the assertions that Vermonter's method is diffult and unsafe...about the comments regarding "calculation" of dichlor amounts in order to achieve a soak free from "chemical soup"...about the idea that it is the spirit rather than the letter of Vermonter's method that should be practiced.
After soaking this morning, I followed my usual weekend routine...break out the Taylor, measure FC, TC and pH. I also checked TA but only because I was planning to write this post...normally I pay TA no attention at all because my water out of the tap is well balanced.
My last soak was Thursday sunset. The previous soak was Monday evening. After the Monday soak, because of schedule, I figured the tub wouldn't be used until either Wednesday or Thursday and after Thursday's soak, I knew the tub wouldn't be used again until Sat. a.m. (today) at the earliest. Normally after soaking, I add 2 tsp. of 62% dichlor...enough to raise ppm to 3. After Monday's soak, I added about 2.5 tsp and after Thursday's soak, I added 2 tsp.
This morning, AFTER my 45 minute soak, the FC measured 2 ppm, TC measured somewhere between 2-2.5 ppm, pH was 7.6 and TA was 90. (And I guarantee you that FC was nowhere close to 5 ppm and dropped to the 2 ppm after soaking 45 minutes...upon retrospect, I wish I had measured FC before I soaked as well.) I added 2 tsp dichlor and 2 tbsp MPS, let the tub circulate for 15 min., left the cover open for another 5-10 min. and closed it up. This took me about 10 min. Since filters were rinsed last weekend, they were left alone until next weekend.
Now how can taking care of a tub be easier than that? I didn't worry that I was soaking in 2 ppm chlorinated water...I didn't worry that I might be soaking in 0 ppm water...I didn't calculate anything.
The spirit of Vermonter's method makes it easy. Sure, I didn't shock with dichlor this time but maybe next time...or the next. Though I consider his regimen gospel, I also feel strongly that water management is like horseshoes or hand gernades...close counts...the only difference being to err on the side of too much sanitizer rather than too little. And once a week is MORE than enough water measurement.