Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Duffman on August 14, 2005, 10:07:02 pm
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My Wet Test and Analysis Report is Complete
http://www.members.cox.net/duffman471/Spa_Wet_Testing_Analysis.htm
I'm not a dealer, just another prospective shopper that got a little carried away in his research. I truly hope this report helps as you do your own research. Just remember how important it is to wet test any spa you would consider purchasing before putting money down. No advice or reommendation is a substitute for your own experience when testing a spa.
The content below evolved over the last month into the report that is referenced here.
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Arctic Spas:
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As a neutral comment I would like to state my observations on the insulation design they advertise. I have read the “independent†study available on the Arctic website that evaluated efficiency for numerous competitors. While Arctic came out on top in this report it should be noted that the conditions for the test went as low as negative 13 degrees C (8.6 deg F). I contacted Arctic and two dealers who agreed that unless you have very cold winters, the cost to operate would not be significantly different then other spas. Personally I like the engineering of Arctic’s design but since I live by Washington DC, I would not expect to save a significant amount money on electricity. If I lived in Minnesota I might have a very different opinion.
The features I liked best include:
(a) Spa shell material and thickness. I have heard of few cases where a spa’s shell cracked but I felt comfortable that I would not have any concerns in this area with the Arctic.
(b) I liked the variety and placement of jets in the upper-level packages. There is also a very powerful whirpool jet which adds a great massage option to the spas.
(c) I felt that the two motor systems had a good power level for most users but require use of the diverter valve to get the most out of any seat. The versions with three motors provided significant improvement in performance.
(d) From the brands I have researched I think Arctic provides the most solid cover. It has a metal sheet inside it for reinforcement. I will not confirm Arctic’s claim that it insulates better then other covers, but I do believe it is likely the strongest and will probably last much longer. However, it is heavy enough that you will probably want a cover lifter for it.
(e) The "forever floor" used on the base of all Arctic spas appears to be the most durable compared to any other brand I have inpected. It looks like there is great seal for protection from insects getting inside. Also, it is the only floor that I have seen that does not require a solid base (e.g., wood, brick, pavers, packed gravel, or concrete). Arctic claims you can place their spas on level ground without any special base.
The features I disliked were:
(a) Arctic seems to have the most seat sculpting for any of the spas I have seen. Not only does this type of shell use up a lot of space in all the tub (the Tundra model is an exception), some of the corner seats were actually snug and a bit uncomfortable for me (I'm a big guy but not huge <5'6", 210 lbs>). To better understand what I mean about using up space, note that four out of the six "8 foot" Arctic spas only hold 380-418 gallons of water (of course if you like these models, the decreased volume will certainly cost less to heat). Only the Avalanche and Tundra models hold 490-540 gallons which is more consistent with most 8' spas I have seen (typically around 500 gal). It should also be noted that when I asked about small side seats in the Tundra and the small corner seat in the Frontier and Summit, the dealer and Arctic rep I talked to said these seats were designed with women in mind. You’ll just have to try it yourself. If you have a smaller waistline, these seats might be perfect for you. To be fair though, I really liked the sculpted upper and lower arm rests, and the wrist jets were well placed on the corner seats.
(b) I felt the availability of foot jets was limited, even on the top end models. On the Tundra model, there are dedicated foot jets for two of the corner seats but you have to be 5' tall or less to comfortable use them. I had to bend my lower legs back underneath my knees to get my feet on them. On other models the foot jets were more difficult to reach from the large captain's chairs
(c) When inspecting the plumbing inside one of the 8' models I noticed that there was a bit of water seeping from multiple tube connections. The dealer's response to this was that the water in that spa was at room temperature, and that once the spa was heated to operating temperature, the silicone in the PVC connectors would expand and provide a proper seal. When I initially wrote up my opinion on this I figured the dealer was just giving me a reason not to look at the Arctic negatively. However, I just talked to another Arctic rep today who confirmed that this can indeed happen. I have to wonder if this happens with other spas.
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Continued from previous post...
Coyote Spas:
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These are the lower range models manufactured by Arctic. They use many of the same core design features but are much more limited with the jet options. Personally I was looking for significantly more and larger jets. Also I saw little to no foot massage options. What I did like was the more open seating layouts.
HotSpring Spas:
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The features I liked were:
(a) Open seating layouts, even for the sculpted captain’s chairs. I found all the seats to be comfortable.
(b) Great leg/foot room in the middle of the spas. I don’t think there would be any footsie problems with this brand.
(c) I liked they locations for the foot massage jets and that the larger diameter nozzles were used.
(d) Decent power level with all jets running at maximum
(e) Dual control panels. I liked that there is a panel on the edge of the tub as well as on the outside cabinet. This allows for temperature observation and adjustment without lifting the cover.
I didn’t care for the following features:
(a) I thought there was an overuse of the small diameter nozzles on the seats. I am used to seeing this with lower end spas but not ones at this price range. When a seats are loaded with them I feel there is a bit of a stinging sensation. I have always preferred the larger diameter jets except in moderation.
(b) One of the corner chair features is called moto-massage that has one or two jets moving up and down your back. This is kind of cool, but I absolutely disliked the single jet moto-massage chair. Since it is centered on your spine I found it a bit uncomfortable and felt it did nothing for my muscles. I understand the newer models are abandoning the single jet version.
(c) On one of the spas there was a seat with jets for massaging the wrists. The problem was at 5’6, when I rested my arms in the hot tub, the jets were just hitting the tips of my fingers. I think you have to be about 6’ tall to use them. I tried one with a lounger and had the exact same problem with the proximity of the foot jets. I had to really stretch out to feel them at all
(d) Monthly cleaning of 5 filters. I mentioned to the dealer that from forum contributions I had read, some dealers suggested cleaning just one per month and rotating their position. However, the dealer I spoke with said it is definitely recommended that all 5 be removed and cleaned each month.
(e) While testing a nearly 1 year-old demo spa I witnessed a jet nozzle pop off of the seat when I set the tub to high power. I was able to pop it back into place but the dealer said it probably needed to be tightened. Since the spouts were designed to be removed and interchanged I did not see this as a big problem. Within minutes of this event, a plastic cover on one of the ornamental water spouts flew off when the spout pressure was increased. While I was fishing for it the dealer said the plastic pieces are glued on at the factory and that he would have to glue it back into place.
Tiger River Spas:
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These are basically lower range HotSpring Spas with smaller jet packages. The features I liked were: (a) Open seating layouts, (b) Good power level for all seats
I did not like that the majority of the seats and all the foot jets used the small diameter nozzles.
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Continued from previous post...
Cal Spas:
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As a neutral comment I would like to state my observations regarding the many internet posts regarding Cal Spa and their warranty. I have spent many, many hours looking at hot tub reviews and forum contributions and the majority of negative experiences posted appear to come from Cal Spa purchasers. Since I really liked the Cal Spa designs, jets, and price range I was very concerned with this. While I am sure there are many dissatisfied customers, there have been a number of Internet forum posts from Cal Spa that seem sincere in their desire to fix any problem once properly reported. Also I checked the Better Business Bureau on California Acrylic Industries (Cal Spa) in Pomona, CA. On the BBB grading system from AAA to F, Cal Spa was rated a B. There seemed to be a significant number of disputes but according to the BBB, almost all of the reported issues were resolved. To be honest though, I still don’t know how to feel about this issue. Given their history I do think Cal Spa should make every effort to increase customer confidence.
The features I liked were: Â
(a) Â Â Comfortable, open seating layouts, even with a significant amount of sculpting to the seats (of course some prefer the sculpting) Â
(b)  I liked that the “volcano†style foot massage jets were positioned in the middle of the spa rather then on the side of the center area which is common to many other models.
(c) Â Â Large variety of jet types including neck jets on the corner seats.
(d)  Good balanced power to seats and foot jets for the 3 pump model. The only drawback is that the balanced power between the pump which drives the foot jets and lounge seat was just a little below average.
Here’s what I didn’t like: Â
(a)   I didn’t like the sculpting in the lounge seat and had to push against the spa to keep from floating out. Cal Spa does offer the same spa without the lounger at the same cost so I would certainly choose that version. The other thing I didn’t like about the lounger was the indentations molded for the legs. It make the leg rest area uncomfortable for anyone who might want to sit there. Other spas design their lounge so the leg area can be used as a seat
(b)  The neck jets were nice but I had to turn them down to lower pressure. At my height (5’ 6â€) the water was splashing off of my neck and shoulders onto my face.
(c) Â Â For the CBA-32 and CA-22 the power level was not satisfactory. The spa with the dually motor was extremely underpowered in my opinion. Only when turning off the pressure to nearly every other area of the hot tub did I get a good massage in the captain's chair. Also, I could have good power to a couple seats or the feet but not both.
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Very interesting reading, well done. I'm sure a lot of people will find it beneficial.
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Great research. You might have found your calling.
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Artesian Spas:
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I wasn't able to wet test an Artesian gold or platinum spa since the only dealer in the area won't stock them (They complete with his preferred Caldera models), but I was able to try out the Artesian Island Grand Cayman model.
The Island series had open seating layouts and a decent jet package, but I didn't see anything special that stood out. However, I have heard nothing but good things about the Platinum line... except the $10000 price tag ;-)
There were three significant issues with this spa that I did not like:
(a) The power level of the two motors was unsatisfactory to me. If I had 5-6 people in the spa and balanced the diverter valve settings, only the person in one of the corner chairs would get decent pressure. The pressure was fairly mild everywhere else and the large diameter foot jet was almost worthless. Note: Since posting this update I received feedback that there is a three motor/pump option that should resolve the power concern. Unfortunately the dealer didn't even mention it to me.
(b) The diverter valve design was very disappointing in the two pump design because the pump that drives the foot jets also powers three of the four corner seats and at least one of the side seats. Â As a result, if you want decent pressure in 3/4 of the tub you practically have to turn the foot jets off. If you want foot jets then 3/4 of the tub's seats must be turned way down. The kicker is that if you do want to divert power to the foot jets and use the captain's chair under power from the separate motor, you better be at least 6' tall. The large foot jet is just too far away for most people to use. Note: I have been informed that with three pumps there is dedicated power to the foot jets.
(c) For the two corner seats with neck jets in two of the corner chairs your shoulders are positioned underneath the spa shell. The hard shell was actually molded so that it wraps over your shoulders. Even with the padded headrest, my shoulders bumped/rubbed uncomfortably against the overhang of the shell.
Caldera Spas:
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I had previously wet tested a couple Calderas, but just got to try the Niagara model (Caldera's top model). As a result I feel it necessary to update my test observations
For most Caldera models I did feel there were many design similarities to HotSprings. However I personally have to give the edge on the jet packages to Caldera. The corner seats on the HotSpring with the moto-massagers just didn't do as much for me.
The features I liked were:
(a) Open seating layouts
(b) very good power levels. I was able to enjoy all the seats and the foot jets when the motors were both on and the diverter valves balanced across the spa
(c) One feature I just discovered and really like is that many of the larger jets can be set at a specific direction, or with a quick adjustment will oscillate for a completely different feel
(d) In some of the models the foot jets are limited in placement. However, I think the Niagara's design is great.
(e) Generally I don't care for lounger seats but the Niagara does a great job with the foot jets on the edge of a side seat; allowing one of the corner seats to combine as a pseudo-lounger. It was practical, comfortable, and I didn't have to fight against floating out of the seat.
(f) The power and location of the large diameter foot jet is perfect for my needs. Thinking out of the box I pointed the foot jet straight up and diverted higher power it. I then stretched out my body on the surface and floated in the center of the spa with my back over the jet. The power of the jet easilly held me up while allowing me to fully relax. It was like resting on a cloud that massaged my back at the same time. Very cool!
What I didn’t care for:
(a) In some of the models I felt that for the number of jets provided, too many of them were the smaller diameter nozzles. I guess this is what helps keep the overall power level higher.
(b) One of the headrests on the Niagara (corner seat with the neck jets) wraps around your neck and keeps you from fully resting against the seat. I found it a bit uncomfortable.
(c) The drain system is not at floor level and will leave a foot of water at the bottom of the spa. The dealer said you shouldn't need to fully drain the tub so buckets will never be necessary. Perhaps... perhaps not.
(d) This is minor but the side panels do not detach without removing about 6 screws for each panel. Since at this price range I would not expect much call for opening the panels, this is very minor.
(e) Another minor issue: I’m not thrilled with the floor of the spa and have read a number of reports of bugs and even mice nesting inside Caldera models. I know this can happen with many brands but I felt the design with some other spas was better in this area. I suppose I would just use the Bounce sheet suggestion and replace the dryer sheet every few months.
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Just curious; have you tried a premium Jacuzzi?
I tried many models and still feel I made the best choice.
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Marquis Spas
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For the last few days I have received a number of recommendations to try the Marquis. I finally got over the local Marquis dealer and wet tested the Epic, which is the top-end tub in the Marquis line.
Before listing my likes and dislikes I want to provide some neutral commentary on a diverter valve system Marquis uses for each of its two pumps called “Tri-zone Therapy†settings. All spas allow you to divert pressure to decrease intensity in some of the seats or foot jets, and increase others. Marquis’ Tri-zone therapy system is no different expect that very specific diversion settings were created. Listed below are the different massage seats/stations in the Epic and a detailed description what you can and cannot do with the Tri-zone settings.
Seat 1) Lounge Seat with Back, thigh, calves, and foot jets (pump 1)
Seat 2) Full Back Massage Seat (pump 1)
Seat 3) Waterfall seat with single back jet (pump 1)
Seat 4) cool down corner seat with 2 back jets (pump 1)
Seat 5) “Deep Therapy†corner seat with shoulder, lower back, and foot jets  (pump 2)
Seat 6) “Therapy Pillar†(pump 2): Rather than sit in a seat, you sit on the floor of the spa and get a massage from a vertically aligned group of jets
Seat 7) cool down corner seat with 4 back jets (pump 2)
Tri-zone controls and Limitations:
(a) For the lounge chair there are separate jets for the back, thighs, calves, and feet. With the tri-zone system it is possible to get significant pressure to just one of those four areas at any one time. There are two tri-zone diverter valves that control the lounge seat. If you want jets on your back in this seat you have to set the Tri-zone control for pump 1 to “overallâ€. At this setting it is not possible to get pressure for the lounge’s jets for the thighs, calves, or feet. Also, power on pump 1 is shared with the jets on seats 3 and 4. If you want to use the lounge jets for thighs, calves, or feet then you MUST turn off the back jets. When this happens, seats 3 and 4 will have no pressure. In this setting you can adjust a separate diverter valve to use only the thigh, calves, or foot jets; never more than one at a time except with very, very mild water flow (I will not even call it pressure).
(b) The full back massage seat is very deep in the spa and provides a very intense massage. The Tri-zone system does have the following limitations: When using the full back seat, Seats 1, 3, and 4 will be turned off.
(c) The Deep therapy station controlled by pump 2 is a deep corner seat with numerous shoulder and lower-back jets, and also foot jets within easy reach along the side of the spa. The function of this seat is very similar to Seat 1 (lounge) under the Tri-zone diverter valve system. One subtle difference is that there is an “overall†setting which splits pump 2 pressure between the Deep Therapy seat and seat 7. However, this setting does not permit any use of the foot jets. When setting the Tri-zone valve to the Deep Therapy seat, a separate valve must be used to adjust pressure between the shoulders, lower back and feet. Similar to the lounge, it is not possible to get more than very mild water flow from more than one of those jet sets simultaneously.
(d) The Therapy tower is unique among all the spas I have wet tested in that there is no “seat.†You either lean against the sidewall or sit flat on the bottom of the spa. There is a vertical series of jets along the sidewall. It is meant to provide a more intense massage as all power for pump 2 is diverted to the Therapy Pillar when enabled on the Tri-zone valve. Seats 5 and 7 are turned off.
If you cannot fully grasp that lengthy description, go to the Marquis website and click the “Virtual Test Soak†link. There, you can visually understand everything that is summarized here. Minor note: the animated “bubbles†in the virtual soak animation that resemble a snow globe effect simply represents general water circulation, not jet operation.
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Marquis Spas continued...
Here’s what I liked about the Marquis:
(a) The spa design was a very open and comfortable layout. I liked the variety of seat depths and the wide-open floor area in the center; definitely no footsie issues with this spa.
(b) The Marquis spa had a very interesting plan for the padded headrests on the seats; they don’t have any! Instead, Marquis designed specially molded headrests that are actually part of the spa shell. This surprised me at first, but I must admit they were comfortable. Given the fact that all padded headrests degrade over time and eventually need to be replaced, I thought this was a great idea.
(c) With respect to the spa cover, except for those provided with Arctic Spas, the Marquis’ version is the most solid one I have seen to date. I have heard these higher end versions referred to as “walk-on covers,†not that anyone ever should. I feel confident that this cover would last longer than most others offered with new spas.
(d) A handy jet/light remote control is provided standard for use in the spa when sitting across from the main control panel. Note that this remote does not display temperature and is not meant to monitor/control the spa from elsewhere inside the house. That remote is a separate option.
Here’s what I didn’t like:
(a) From the feedback I received I know there are plenty of people who love the Tri-zone system. Since the diverters are set up to provide high power to a limited number of jets, this spa certainly provides an intense massage at the activated seats. I’m sure this is what makes the Epic so attractive to many buyers. I definitely think Marquis came up with a clever marketing effort in repackaging the diverter valve to present specific therapeutic options. For others like me, the Tri-zone system may be interpreted as very limiting. Because of this dichotomy, I must highly recommend you wet test the Epic before buying one; more so with this model than any other I have reviewed.
From the way the Tri-zone diverter valves were designed, it is just a fact you cannot possibly run power to all of the seats at one time. For me this fact is minor compared to the fact that in the captain’s chair and the lounge, you can only get pressure to one of the massage areas at any one time (shoulders, lower back, OR feet for the captain’s chair. For the lounge you can only get pressure to the back, thighs, calves, OR feet). I certainly acknowledge that the Marquis offers an intense massage at the major stations but so do most spas when making full use of the diverter valves.
(b) To effectively use the Therapy Pillar you better be at least 5' 8" tall. I was unable to sit on the floor of the spa at 5' 6" and would not see myself using that station much at all.
(c) A related issue to the one above is fairly minor, but is definitely an inconvenience to someone like me who has back problems. When sitting in the lounge you cannot switch between its four jet types with same diverter valve. To switch from the legs/feet to the back or vice-versa, it is necessary to get up out of the seat to adjust the main Tri-zone control knob for pump 1.
(d) This is a minor issue but one I have not seen with any of the other spas I reviewed. The main control panel layout is positioned on the inside wall of the spa where it is difficult to read while standing outside the tub. Since there is no secondary control panel mounted to the outside, making adjustments while monitoring/maintaining the spa is a little awkward.
(e) The Marquis jets types are extremely limited for a spa in this price range. They only come standard with the small and medium diameter directional jets. Rotating jets can be purchased separately as accessories if you want some variety (~$20 each).
Coleman Spas
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Like most people, when I think Coleman I think camping. I didn’t realize they’ve been making spas since the 80s. I tried out a couple of the top-end spas and determined that while they don't have all the features and frills as some other brands, Coleman seems to make an all around good quality spa with respectable power, decent jet variety, tub design, and a more attractive price range relative to many competitors. Dollar for dollar I think these tubs are worth looking at if cost is a significant trade-off factor.
I think it is definitely worth noting a cool feature that seems unique to the Coleman spa. At the foot of the lounge there is an overhang that allow foot jets to hit you from the top and bottom. The overhang also made it easier to stop the float-away sensation many get in the lounge seats.
Here are a couple things I didn’t like:
(a) There is definitely an above average level of sculpting to the tub seats. This is not necessarily a bad thing. You just need to wet test the seats for comfort and decide for yourself. Personally I was not comfortable in every one of the seats.
(b) When sitting in the corner cool down seats, the tub tends to overflow while you lean back.
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Great review! Â Certainly should help many.
My only issue is that I became curious about the therapy tower as i haven't seen one before. Â I am trying to envision sitting on the sa floor but being short, a snorkel would have to be included or i would surely drown.
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Duffman,
you should start your own review site. Your reviews are very informative in your overview and also your opinions. NICE JOB! I would really like to hear a Master Spa LS800review if you would get the chance because our opinions seem to be similar. Thanks again for sharing your info.
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I really appreciate the kind responses. It is certainly gratifying and makes the effort worthwhile
When I started looking at hot tubs, the first thing I did was log onto the internet. Dedicated review sites tended to have very few contributions. Unfortunately, it seemed to me that a significantly large number of contributions fell into one of two categories.
1) Dealer claims on the superiority of their spas
2) Argumentative disputes and even ethical complaints about other dealer's comments.
My personal opinion is that most prospective buyers don't want to read that type of information. I would much rather read about owner's experiences and observations. When questions are asked of dealers, I applaud the ones that provide specific answers and opinions without making any subjective claims or accusations.
For my contributions I really wanted to provide a positive set of information that would help another spa shopper guide themselves to their ideal spa. To that end I have made every effort to stick to the following rules:
1) State all opinions in terms of specific observations and make sure to phrase them as just being an opinion.
2) Never imply a factual statement that one spa is better than another. Instead, simply list likes and dislikes for a specific spa/brand with reasonable detail. Readers can decide for themselves if those opinions help their decision making process. (i.e., never force an opinion down someone's throat)
3) Be very careful when comparing a feature between one brand of spa and another. I always try qualifying such statements with plenty of detail to ensure there is no interpretation that a blanket comparison is being made.
4) Be respectful in responses to feedback that may be interpreted as negative. Before "shooting back" it is worth taking time to try and understand the other person's position. The written word very often reads as more aggressive than it is intended. Your response should confirm your understanding of the other person's position. Also, your response should clarify your position as necessary to eliminate any misunderstandings. This will help avoid an unnecessarily critical or inappropriate argument.
5) Scrolling your mouse/screen past a rude response and ignoring it is the most effort you should allow. Such a contribution doesn't deserve your response and no one will think anything less of you. In fact, stopping potential spats before they start by ignoring them will mean less garbage for other readers to wade through.
Once again, thanks for the positive feedback.
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I read some really good feedback in a separate topic called "Jet Pressure for Guests" which discusses the value or need to have a spa with balanced power levels for all seats.
Since my wet test observation posts frequently touch on this topic, I feel there may have been misunderstandings regarding my position on this issue. I hope the following information provides adequate clarification
(1) For all my wet tests, the first thing I do is what I call the "Balanced Power Test". Directions for this test are: set all motors to full power, balance all diverter valves, sit in every seat, and reach a conclusion based on feel.
For me, a spa passes this test if I can get an enjoyable massage in all seats and foot jets. It fails if the power level feels very low for all of the seats and foot jets.
I have come to believe that the Balanced Power Test should be a standard for any wet test. I think it provides a spa shopper with an sense of performance that can be compared to other spas in an apples-to-apples manner.
The results of this test could certainly help someone make a better decision when considering a trade-off between price and power. Some people might decide to save money by purchasing a lower cost spa and using the diverters more. Others might prefer specially designed diverter settings. The Marquis Epic is a rather unique example of this design type which many people love. I must admit there are many cool things about it.
(2) As an engineer I don’t think it is valid to judge a spa's performance by looking at the horsepower or CFM rating of the pumps. There are too many factors that contribute to how the spa actually feels when you are sitting in it. Examples include: actual power applied at the motor during use vs. the maximum rated power advertised, diameter and quantity of the jets installed, friction resistance due to the length of plumbing lines, number of right angles in the pipes, volume of water in the spa, etc...
(3) I believe that a spa that can give good power to all seats will provide a much more intense massage when that power is diverted to one or more specific seats.
(4) I have found plenty of spas that can provide a very good massage to all seats simultanously. I have tried some that fail in this regard. Also, some of the spas I tested are designed with diverter valve restrictions and are incapable of enabling all jets simultaneously.
It is my opinion that if I am going to buy a large tub, I don't want to be "restricted" to having unpowered or underpowered seats. It is up to each shopper to determine if this is important.
Happy hunting everyone!
Duffman
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Master Spas
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I saw a request for a review on the Master LS800 but was only able to wet testing the LSX. It has many of the same features as the LS800 but is a definite step up. There is a lot I like about this spa and very little I disliked. Just know that the price point for this top-of-the-line 8’ Master spa is definitely above everything else I have wet tested. Expect to pay about $10,500.
Here’s what I liked:
(a) When powering up all three motors and balancing the diverter I got an extremely intense massage experience from the seats and a decent massage from the foot and lounger jets. There are 87 jets in this spa and lots of power to drive them. However, it should be noted that the lounger and foot jets do share a dedicated diverter valve. Conclusion: The seats got an A+ in the Balanced Power Test while the lounge/foot jets got a C.
(b) Despite lots of sculpting in the 2 captain’s chairs, which I generally don’t care for, I was very comfortable in all of them. They also sculpted upper and lower armrests, similar to Arctic Spas, which is very nice.
(c) Without a doubt, the highlight of the LSX and LS2X models is the “Xtreme Therapy Seatâ€. It has a 6HP pump dedicated completely to it. On one side of the diverter valve you get a super-intense massage from the directed and rotating jets on your back, thighs and legs. When switching the diverter valve on this seat you are literally bombarded with 2 huge whirlpool jet spouts that are directed at angles to both sides of your ribcage. They also feel great on the lower arms and wrists as you desire. When I had those 2 jets on full for the first time I was shocked by the power. Enough said 8)
(d) The 2nd captains chair also provided a great back massage and includes neck jets and also rotating shoulder jets that seemed fairly unique.
(e) When power is increased to the two large diameter arrays of foot jets in the bottom of the spa (15 jets in each array) you get a very intense and comfortable foot massage. These two foot jet arrays is placed for easy access from the two captain’s chairs
(f) Although you have five filter components to clean every month, I really liked Master’s water filter and mineral-process purification system. These are bromine-free spas and I didn’t notice any chemical smell at all in the spa. The technology is very similar to that used in home purification systems for drinking water, and also the upper end filter/purification systems used in commercial aquariums. Aside from reasonable use of PH and alkaline adjuster chemicals I am curious if other owners have had to use any significant amount of chemicals. You will certainly spend less on chemicals but this system is not exactly cheap. Be prepared to spend about $120 per year on filter and purification components. (2 purification canisters every 6 months at $44 each, 2 filter canisters every 18 months at $36 each, and a top mounted rectangular filter every 2-3 years at $20).
(g) Master Spas use a solid steel frame that would definitely seem to provide above average durability and support for the shell.
Here’s what I didn’t like:
(a) This is a minor issue since I think there is acceptable power to the lounge and foot jets when balancing the diverter valve. Compared to the other seats however the lounge and foot jets feel very unless you use the diverter. This is just a matter of preference and I can almost overlook it for all the power you get from the captain’s chairs. Wet test it for yourself and you’ll see what I mean.
(b) For this price range I expected a little better quality to the cover. It was not flimsy but appeared average. There is no reinforcement like those offered with a couple other spas.
(c) At the secondary captains chair on this spa, the shell includes a molded overhang covering your shoulders. This is where the two shoulder jets are located. At 5’6†my shoulders were definitely low enough that they did not rub against the overhang. However, I was low enough in the seat that the water from those jets splashed off of my shoulders and into my face. Personally I would choose to turn them off but you might love them if you are the right size for the design.
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Great reviews!!
Is there a Sundance dealer near you??
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Duff:
Excellent observations. . . . . i also have wet tested several manufacturers. In my mind I ask all the questions you have posed. I want you to WT a Cameo and give us your feedback. I'll pay for your gas ::)
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>>>>I have found plenty of spas that can provide a very good massage to all seats simultanously. I have tried some that fail in this regard. Also, some of the spas I tested are designed with diverter valve restrictions and are incapable of enabling all jets simultaneously.
It is my opinion that if I am going to buy a large tub, I don't want to be "restricted" to having unpowered or underpowered seats. It is up to each shopper to determine if this is important. <<<
hi i am curious as to what you rate the best spas in this area are? I too feel that in this day and age fighting for divertor positions shouldnt exist...i mean ok..there wont always be 4- people in your tub but it should still be made to cover extreme circumstances such as this for 7-8-9- or 10,000.00 ..
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Poopsie,
I would love to tell you which spa on the market is the best one, but there are just too many factors to bestow that title on one brand or model.
If the information I provided saves you research time, and helps narrow down the models you want to wet test, then my job here is done :-)
However, since having a spa that passes the Balanced Power Test is important to you, here's a few models that I would suggest you wet test .
Master Spa LS2X
Caldera Niagara
Jacuzzi 385
Arctic Spas Summit or Tundra (Legend Extreme)
Artesian Island or Gold series with 3 motors
HotSprings Vista
Coleman premium series spas (2 pumps)
I selected models with decent to excellent balanced power that offers you a fairly wide price range. Just remember to wet test before you buy and the spa that is right for you should reveal itself.
Good luck
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Duffman, you have a shot at my dream job - professional spa testor
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Wow!
I wish I saw this posting earlier! What great information.
Thank You Thank You Thank You!
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Thanks for the great information. I'd be interested in knowing if you have wet tested a Beachcomber hot tub? We are looking for a tub that is not very loud but still has enough power. Also, have you heard of or seen any Sunrise spas? particularly the Paragon Series? I cannot find any reviews about them.
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I'd be interested in knowing if you have wet tested a Beachcomber hot tub? Â We are looking for a tub that is not very loud but still has enough power. Â Also, have you heard of or seen any Sunrise spas? Â particularly the Paragon Series? Â I cannot find any reviews about them.
I think I have nearly exhausted the available brands that have dealers in my area. I have checked on a number of brands including Beachcomber, Bullfrog, Sundance, Sunrise (as requested), Thermospa, and others, and have found no dealers in reasonable range.
The only dealer in my area that I have not visited sells Jacuzzi hot tubs. Since I've gone this far in my wet testing, I'll probably drop by in the next week to check them out.
I just got back an estimate for my backyard patio and landscaping, and am trying to get the plans approved by the HOA (don't you just hate HOAs?). Once thats sorted I'll make a decision on my spa and put down a deposit. It's all coming together ;D
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Debra,
My family did a wet test on the 750. I wrote up some words on it in a post a couple of weeks back. You can search for the post.
Greg
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Jacuzzi
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Having wet testing the Jacuzzi 385 I exhausted the supply of local spa dealers to check out. I'm glad I tried it out though because I was impressed.
Here are the features I liked:
a) strong balanced power for all seats
b) Dedicated foot jet pump: Unlike most other brands with foot jets, I never needed to trade seat jet pressure for the foot jets. No matter how you divert power between the different seats, the feet can always get a nice massage. The 3rd pump also powers jets for the calves on a number of seats .
c) Jet package: The Jacuzzi spa jets don't have the bells and whistles of some other brands like neck or shoulder jets, but the layout is well designed, and the jets felt better than many of the other brands I tested. Jacuzzi also has a somewhat unique air/water mixed jet that you can enable/disable at a number of locations around the spa. This feature offered a very different feel that I enjoyed. With most other spas I tested that had air jets, I never felt they were worth having.
Here's what I didn't like:
a) Although I liked the open seating layout, I had trouble sitting in two of the corner seats without feeling like I was sliding away from the seat back.
b) While I really like the foot jet package, I didn't get much out of the jets for the calves. The only way to make them any stronger would be to reach down to the larger foot jets and manually turn each one down/off.
c) The lounger was reasonably comfortable and I liked the fact that you could use the leg rest area like a normal side seat. Like most loungers however, you often need to be a certain height to make the most of it. At 5' 6" the wrist jets were positioned at my fingertips and the lounge foot jets were a few inches too far from my feet to get a massage.
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Sure wish you had these review when I was looking at tubs. Very good research and well written.
I'm not sure we paid much attention to the Tri-Zone therapy when we wet tested the Epic. We were aware that you couldn't get a "full" masage in the aidorondack seat, but I figured I could live with that. Am I misunderstanding or are you saying that if you have 6 people in the tub someone is going to be without a seat functioning?
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Great job, very thorough. Thank you very much for all the time and effort. You have helped alot of us.
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Am I misunderstanding or are you saying that if you have 6 people in the tub someone is going to be without a seat functioning?
Since you were comfortable with the limitations in the "Deep Therapy" seat and the Adirondack chair I don't think you will have any regrets with your Epic. I was impressed with it's construction and many of the features and am sure you'll get many years of enjoyment.
The best setting for you if you have a spa party is the "Overall" setting on each of the Tri-zone valves. This will provide pressure to jets on all seats but the "Full Back Therapy" seat across from the filter. That gives you 5 seats with working jets.
Unfortunately, when using the Tri-zone settings you cannot get water pressure to all of the seats at the same time. It is true that you can adjust the Tri-zone valves between settings, but the "balanced" pressure is so mild that I barely felt it. I did not feel that there was any enjoyment to using the Tri-zone valves in this manner.
Go back to the Marquis website, select the Epic and then the "Virtual Test Soak" link on the right side of the screen. You will be able to adjust the valves online and see exactly what you can do.
Hope you enjoy your spa!
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great info..i am deciding between a master spa - caldera tahetian or geneva- and sunsance optima/cameo or altamar as well as hs envoy or the marquis epic...i like them all but cannot decide...i have yet to wet test the master spa..
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Duffman, you've done a fine job of interpreting many of the differences with an unbiased and informative format. It would be nice to see this kind of information some how preserved and enhanced by yourself and others to aid shoppers in the differing pros and cons.
I am surprised by the absense of Sundance, but then there are so many different manufacturers. It would be nice if one, such as yourself, could expand your interpretations of all of the brands referenced here. This could give some very meaningful insight to shoppers.
I will note however that some of the cons do have solutions, such as Artesian foot jets with 2 pumps, or 3 pumps, or even 4 pumps that would eliminate your noted drawbacks that seemingly the salesperson failed to fully explain. You also commented on their neck jets and pillow that rubbed your shoulders being uncomfortable. I believe you can eliminate that reverse neck jetting in one or both positions.
Nevertheless, a fine job done.
Now if we could only preserve it here, maybe even under it's own heading that could be refined and developed for all shoppers to benefit from. As has been indicated here before, the largest majority of people do not water test and it would certainly benefit their interest.
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Duffman, it's info like this that has had me referring customers to this site since I found it. Thank you for giving such an honest opinion. As a dealer, I obviously feel I've got the best tub on the market, but you've made it clear that there isn't one brand for everyone.
Thank you for helping so many potential spa owners in their quest for knowledge about our products!!!
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.....and my wife thinks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII overanalyze things. Way to go Duffman!!!
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Holy crap Duffman.  That is one hell of a research project.  I'm an engineer and tend to go over board but you got me beat.  What do you do for a living?
To recap, I have tested 16 different spas across 11 different brands. Here's the list
? ? Arctic
? ? Coyote
? ? Hotspring
? ? Tiger River
? ? Cal Spas
? ? Artesian
? ? Caldera
? ? Marquis
? ? Coleman
? ? Master
? ? Jacuzzi
I was interested in testing some other recommended brands including Sundance, Bullfrog, Thermospa and others. Unfortunately there were no dealers in reasonable range.
I was hoping to post my analysis table but cannot find a clean way to do it. I have a full report with the analysis table in a MS Word (2000 version) document but need a location to upload it. Just after putting it in my own webspace I realized that I could end up quickly hitting my limit from other people downloading the file. If anyone has a place to upload the report where people can access it I will be happy to e-mail it to you.
At the end of my report is a detailed analysis table. I rated each spa for 16 different categories (1-4 = Below average, 5 = average, 6-10 = Above Average). Each category is weighted between 0 and 2 to represent the level of importance for each feature. The final rating for each spa is the sum of each rating multiplied by the associated weight value.
My conclusions were based solely on my own wet test experiences and spa evaluations. Because many of the rated categories are admittedly subjective (e.g., seating comfort, feel of the jets, etc.), I anticipate your wet tests may yield different conclusions. Also, you may find that your priorities for the importance of different features are very different.
Anyway, here are the spas that scored highest in my analysis:
1st and 2nd: ? Master Spas LSX and LS2X
3rd: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Caldera Spas Niagara
4th: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Jacuzzi 385
5th: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Arctic Spas Summit LE
6th: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Hotspring Spas Grandee
Since the Master Spas are so much more expensive, it is hard for me to justify the cost difference. I am seriously leaning toward the Caldera Niagara or the Jacuzzi 385.
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Holy crap Duffman.  That is one hell of a research project.  I'm an engineer and tend to go over board but you got me beat.  What do you do for a living?
No question about it. I certainly did go a bit overboard ::)
What started as an-email to my friends who were looking for some feedback on the first few spas I wet tested, became a short-term hobby. Once I decided to do a thorough evaluation of the spas in my area I figured I might as well go the full 9 yards and do a proper trade study.
As for my career, I am a Systems Engineer. My current role is Technical Manager for the integration of Command and Control Systems for a new ship being developed for the US Navy.
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To recap, I have tested 16 different spas across 11 different brands. Here's the list
  Arctic
  Coyote
  Hotspring
  Tiger River
  Cal Spas
  Artesian
  Caldera
  Marquis
  Coleman
  Master
  Jacuzzi
I was interested in testing some other recommended brands including Sundance, Bullfrog, Thermospa and others. Unfortunately there were no dealers in reasonable range.
I uploaded the full wet test report with a final conclusions to the following link: http://www.members.cox.net/duffman471/Spa_Wet_Testing_Analysis.htm
Just in case you are in a rush, heres the list of spas that scored highest in my analysis:
1st and 2nd: Â Master Spas LSX and LS2X Â
3rd: Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Caldera Spas Niagara
4th: Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Jacuzzi 385
5th: Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Arctic Spas Summit LE
6th: Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Hotspring Spas Grandee
Since the Master Spas are so much more expensive, it is hard for me to justify the cost difference. I am seriously leaning toward the Caldera Niagara or the Jacuzzi 385.
The analysis table at the end of the report defines the 16 categories evaluated for the spas I tested, and shows how I rated each one by my wet test experience and evaluation.
I truly hope this helps out as you do your own research. Just remember how important it is to wet test any spa you would consider purchasing before putting money down. No advice or reommendation is a substitute for your own experience when testing a spa.
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Very Nice Duffman. You should start a new thread for this report. You must drive the dealers nuts...lol......
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On a separate forum topic I received a comment today from a Cal Spa dealer questioning my concerns with the power level on the 3 pump Cal Spa. His comment was compelling and I figured there might have been something fishy, so I went back to the dealer to take another look.
Either I was incorrectly informed or there was a misunderstanding, but the Cal Spa model that I thought had three pumps really only had two. This certainly explained why it seemed so underpowered compared to other models. Another problem was when I was writing up my report and could not find the models I tested on the CalSpa website. The Cal Spa dealer's stock was all customized versions of spas on the website for which the IDs were not fully displayed. When I first generated my report I had to try and find the picture that looked closest to what I actually wet tested. This was not easy since there were lots of features that the base model on the website do not include (foot jets, neck jets, etc.)
Since the top end model  (customized CA51 with 65 jets) sold by the dealer definitely had 3 pumps and was up to temperature, I wet tested it thoroughly and can confirm that the balanced power was good. I got the proper IDs for the three spas and made the appropriate corrections.
I acknowledge that a mistake was made and thank the member "coloradocrusader" for the feedback. I immediately updated my wet test report and am adding clarificaiton to all of my comments on this website.
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Very Nice Duffman. Â You should start a new thread for this report. Â You must drive the dealers nuts...lol......
Actually, as a dealer, this is the kind of info I love to see! Not only does it give me good info on what's out there, but it helps us to see how our customers (or potential as it may be) view our product compared to our competition. I've already told a few people who've come in to come to this site and read this thread!!! It's customers like Duffman who keep all of us honest and help us in assisting our customers in finding the best tub for them and their family!
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I had a couple hours to kill this evening so I gathered the Better Business Bureau information on each spa manufacturer reviewed.
http://www.members.cox.net/duffman471/Spa_Wet_Testing_Analysis.htm
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I'm pretty sure you BBB report under Coleman Spas is for a small retail store......... Actually, I'm rather sure about that.
Coleman is currently manufactured by MAAX Spas out of Canada.
did ya get my email?
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Duffman,
I'm suprised you didn't evaluate Sundance. Maybe you don't have a local dealer?
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Coleman is currently manufactured by MAAX Spas out of Canada.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll remove the dealer specific info and update with the proper information as soon as I can locate it. I did find the Maxx Corporate website and used that, phone, and address references but could not find anything from the Better Business Bureau on them. Â ???
I'll check my email as soon as I get home this evening. However, if the details are not in your message I would appreciate the proper reference information that will yield results from the BBB website.
Thanks.
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Duffman,
I'm suprised you didn't evaluate Sundance. Â Maybe you don't have a local dealer?
It would take well over an hour to get to the nearest dealer.
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Duffman<Good job on your reviews I foud it ineteresting and informative! I believe your statements on my Cal Spas to be fair and balanced i want to thank you for your time and efforts! I know I for one learn something everyday and today I have learned a thing or two from you! Thank you again for the many hours you spent to very proffessionally organise a private consumer study. I also realize that you plan on wettesting other spas in the future! just a word of caution from me to you. Please do not get into any hottub that you cannot verify an ETL or UL listing for by calling either ETL or UL. There are tubs in the industry that have neither ETL or ul listing even though they are bearing a label indicating a listing please verify before entering the tub. a simple phone call will verufy my claim to some spas not being listed with ETL OR UL. FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY MAKE THESE VERIFICATIONS PRIOR TO ENTERING A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SPA! Thanks again and good job!
;) ;) ;)
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Absolutely a great review. This would have influenced my decision if I had read this earlier.
These are all the things I wanted to know and tried to find out but didn't have the time nor energy to do.
Excellent job!
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I'm pretty sure you BBB report under Coleman Spas is for a small retail store......... Actually, I'm rather sure about that.
Coleman is currently manufactured by MAAX Spas out of Canada.
did ya get my email?
Actually Coleman spas are manufactured in Chandler Arizona. Other MAAX spas are made in Grimsby such as Elite and Nahani.
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Actually Coleman spas are manufactured in Chandler Arizona. Other MAAX spas are made in Grimsby such as Elite and Nahani.
Thanks! I found the information and will update my report this evening.
MAAX SPAS ARIZONA, INC. (Coleman Spas)
25605 S. Arizona Avenue
Chandler, AZ 85248
Original Business Start Date: 12/01/76
Local Start Date: 10/01/84
New Ownership Date: 10/01/98
Principal: Ron Hill, Vice President Operations
Phone Number: 480-895-0598
Fax Number: 480-895-7849
Membership Status: yes
Date Joined BBB: 12/22/95
Type of Business: Spas & Hot Tubs - Dealers
Current Rating: Satisfactory
Closed Complaints
Number of complaints processed by the BBB in last 36 Months: 4
Number of complaints processed by the BBB in last 12 months: 0
Complaints Concerned
Repair or Service Issues: 1
Outcome of the complaint -
Resolved: 1
Guarantee or Warranty Issues: 1
Outcome of the complaint -
Resolved: 1
Product Quality Issues: 1
Outcome of the complaint -
Resolved: 1
Customer Service Issues: 1
Outcome of the complaint -
Resolved: 1
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i too have heard great things about the master spas...but their dealers are limited in colorado..and 10,000 is out of my budget...we are looking more at 7-8500 range.....i wonder if the niagra is so good if the tahitian or geneva would be as good a spa? And jacuzzi since its made with sundance and sundancce is a higher line i bet that if you had wet tested a sundance it would also maybe get high marks?
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I want to commence this post by saying that this review is most likely one of the most comprehensive I have seen and the work involved to achieve your findings is obviously greatly appreciated by many including myself Duffman.
I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and then when I read cappycats response saying that "This would have influenced my decision if I had read this earlier", I'm going to respond with my opinion. (What else is new right?) ;D
I don't want to come across as a wet rag here but a great deal of the information contained in this extensive review is based on comfort, therapy and jet pressure which is entirely subjective to the individual user. I don't question the effort or the information other than to say that 5 different people could do the same thing and come up with 5 totally different reviews of each brand.
I would caution anyone to do the homework required on this purchase and take in account the credibility of the individual dealer as well. Wet test it for yourself and determine your own personal needs. What's right for one, isn't necessarliy right for another and this purchase contains varying degrees of features that appeal to people differently.
I would also suggest that there are many quality spas available on the market today that weren't in Duffman's local and we can only hope that one day, this list can be completed to offer a complete overview of all manufacturers in the same detailed, unbiased manor.
I do understand that you have made it clear Duffman the importance of the wet test. Again, I think you should be commended on your effort and the fact that you have done this to help others in your situation is something very respectable. I just don't think that any one buying decision should be based to closely on 1 review regardless of the fact that it is non-biased.
Gee I hope this came across the way in which I intended! ;)
Steve
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Steve,
I agree with you and and also applaud the detailed information  that Duffman has provided. But it is is interesting that in the end it is a personal choice with no rights or wrongs . As a example he seemed to like to the Caldera Niagara as another gentleman I believe his name is Bill and while Bill owns a Hot Springs today he has commented about his preference to his Caldera. And for me in MY WET TESTING I did not care for the Caldera Niagara at all as I have mentioned before I had already made a great great deal on one , left a deposit but had yet to wet test before making it final and after doing so I knew it was not the spa for me BUT for others like Bill it was a great choice. If I am not mistaken Duffman is about 5'6 ? .....I am 6'2 the same spa is going to feel different to us. Duffman great job and Thank you for sharing your thoughts and in such a well organized way. I would encourage all who are looking to take the time and find the spa that fits YOU best.
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Nicely worded Mendo!
Oh, and for the record...my Spidey is not GAY ...he's dancing "happily" ;D
Steve
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Nicely worded Mendo!
Oh, and for the record...my Spidey is not GAY ...he's dancing "happily" ;D
Steve
I do not think anyone implied he was gay .....but he is from San Fransisco right.... ;)
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...my Spidey is not GAY ...
Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;D (props to Seinfeld)
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(1) I don't want to come across as a wet rag here...
(2) I would caution anyone to do the homework required on this purchase and take in account the credibility of the individual dealer as well.
(3) I would also suggest that there are many quality spas available on the market today that weren't in Duffman's locale
(4) I just don't think that any one buying decision should be based to closely on 1 review regardless of the fact that it is non-biased.
(5) Gee I hope this came across the way in which I intended! ;)
Hi Steve
(1) You didn't  ;)
(2) I completely agree that the dealer plays a significant role, especially since most rely on the dealer for service. I have not found it easy to get good feedback on specific dealers though. Many of them are not tracked by the Better Business Bureau and pickins are slim for customer feedback on dealers. Any suggestions
(3) There were definitely a number of brands that I wanted to try but couldn't. I pretty much exhausted the supply of spa dealers in the Northern Virginia area.
(4) I completely agree. I feel the best thing that shoppers should take away from my report is the following insight: Recommendations, referrals, snazzy sales pitches, or the sight of cool features can be taken into consideration, but no decision should be based on them. There is no universal spa that is perfect for everyone, and what is ideal for one person may be a sour purchase for others.
Any spa in the price range I reviewed is likely going to be good quality with some performing better than others in different ways. Your own experience after sitting in all the seats and playing with the settings should be the key factor. After that I think price, dealer credibility, and service record are probably most important to your decision making process.
(5) Great feedback Steve. It would be an unreasonable person to take your response negatively.
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for me i feel your opinions are great..my #1 issue is enough power to more then 1 or 2 seats at the same time...granted there will only be 1-2 people in spa mostly maybe 3 or 4 a few times a year...but i personally like a powerful spa knowing the power can be toned down if needed w/o sacrificing power to other seats...i am still searching....
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Thanks Duffman for your response. Much appreciated!
And no soakin...there's nothing wrong with being gay...or homophobic for that matter! ;D
I believe it was Spidey's brother "spidahhhhhh man" who grew up in San Fran there Mendo! :D
Steve
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for me i feel your opinions are great..my #1 issue is enough power to more then 1 or 2 seats at the same time...granted there will only be 1-2 people in spa mostly maybe  3 or 4 a few times a year...but i personally like a powerful spa knowing the power can be toned down if needed w/o sacrificing power to other seats...i am still searching....
Poopsy and others,
There is no magic in building a spa, most spas today run off of 50 amps of power with some using 60 that allows you to run 2 pumps and a heater if you want to run three pumps your heater will not operate with jets on or on high.....if you want all seats to have all the jets in the spa running than you have to run fewer jets or they have to be smaller jets to create the illusion of more power the same way a high pressure nozzle does on a garden hose. Different manufactures deal with this in different ways it depends on what they as a company believe in and what they feel will sell more spas. But there is no magic in someone  being able to run everything all at once, in the end comes down to the limits that your electrical draw will support . If you want to add more pumps and heaters than it becomes energy inefficient.
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Good point Mendocino. Your comments are both valid and educational, but as you stated, different companies deal with the 50/60 amp limitation in different ways.
Poopsy is simply looking for a spa that emphasizes higher intensity and the ability to get a good massage from all seats. I do not see any fault in this. While acknowledging the electrical power limitation you identified, I don't think this is an unreasonable objective at all. I identified a number of spas that definitely fit the bill in my opinion. It all comes down to preference when wet testing.
By the way, your point about the power limits really had me thinking about my initial enthusiasm for the Artesian Piper Glen's design; specifically that it has seperate motors for every seat. Too bad I never got to test one to make an assessment. Interesting...
Best regards,
Duffman
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Good point Mendocino. Your comments are both valid and educational, but as you stated, different companies deal with the 50/60 amp limitation in different ways.
Poopsy is simply looking for a spa that emphasizes higher intensity and the ability to get a good massage from all seats. I do not see any fault in this. While acknowledging the electrical power limitation you identified, I don't think this is an unreasonable objective at all. I identified a number of spas that definitely fit the bill in my opinion. It all comes down to preference when wet testing.
Best regards,
Duffman
Ohh No not at all, what I was trying to point out is that is there is no magic that one maker has over another. That all are limited to what 50 or 60 amps of electricity will support and that if you want certain things than you may have to give up something in return. Marquis as an example believes in Hi Flow therapy thus they designed the tri zone ( a three way diverter) all others are only two way. Their believe in isolating muscle groups and working them one at a time, much the way a masseuse does with the jets that put out up to 40gpm of water flow but to do this you take away power from other jets in the spa, when there is one or two in the spa it is a great feature . As you get a massage without getting the stinging feeling that many do. Of course the trade off is not having all seats running at once when you do this. Now you can in all Marquis spas get strong pressure in every seat all at the same time when you are on the overall position . But this is just their approach and while it works for some it may not be the best way for everyone.
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Ohh No not at all, what I was trying to point out is that is there is no magic that one maker has over another. That all are limited to what 50 or 60 amps of electricity will support and that if you want certain things than you may have to give up something in return. Marquis as an example believes in Hi Flow therapy thus they designed the tri zone ( a three way diverter) all others are only two way. Their believe in isolating muscle groups and working them one at a time, much the way a masseuse does with the jets that put out up to 40gpm of water flow but to do this you take away power from other jets in the spa, when there is one or two in the spa it is a great feature . As you get a massage without getting the stinging feeling that many do. Of course the trade off is not having all seats running at once when you do this. Now you can in all Marquis spas get strong pressure in every seat when you are on the overall position . But this is just their approach and while it works for some it may not be the best way for everyone.
Mendocino - you never did respond to this question in another thread. Assuming you are a Marquis person, I was hoping you would answer:
What do the Marquis jets for the neck/traps do? Rotate or straight stream?
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They are straight stream all seats that have a molded head rest have them.
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Muchos Gracias :)
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(4) I completely agree. I feel the best thing that shoppers should take away from my report is the following insight: Recommendations, referrals, snazzy sales pitches, or the sight of cool features can be taken into consideration, but no decision should be based on them. There is no universal spa that is perfect for everyone, and what is ideal for one person may be a sour purchase for others.
First and, foremost, you have done a very thorough job in trying to understand which hot tub is best for you and to make a qualitative decision as quantitative as possible.
There might be confusion over how to interpret these results. What you have thought out is a first-draft of a hot-tub shopping process that any beginner shopper would be well served to follow. Like Steve, it struck me as odd that another shopper felt that your personal conclusions would have altered his/her buying decision.
I got far more out of your description of how you tried to normalize ratings than in the individual reviews themselves. The report is independent in the sense that you do not work for a hot tub manufacturer (but, presumably, if you did you wouldn't be shopping for a tub!). The report is not independent in that it is (correctly) based upon dealers in your area, your body type, and your preferences. And, of course, you are not saying anything different from that.
What would be terrific, I think, is for you to formalize your process a little more, ask for input on considerations and missed comparison opportunities, and focus more on how to make this something each individual shopper on this board (and others) can implement on their own.
Barring that, I think someone is going to say "wow, he is a detailed guy so I'm not even going to look at a spa he didn't rate well". Which, I think, would be a shame.
Good work though, and hopefully this interest and benefit to the "hot tub geek community" will continue long after your first soak! ;D
-Ed
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The report is not independent in that it is (correctly) based upon dealers in your area, your body type, and your preferences. Â And, of course, you are not saying anything different from that.
Excellent point. To someone in his area, his review MAY mean more because they would be dealing with the same dealers. For someone of similar height/weight, his review MAY mean more because they may have similar reults relative to how they fit in the spa. As far as the feel of the spa, I would certainly consider the results and put some stock in them but we all know that everyone has their own likes/dislikes so to each his own.
I'm just happy to see someone taking the time and effort to find the spa that suites HIM best. I've seen too many people not only skip the wet test but not even wanting to sit in it dry!!
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Well said Ed.
I agree that one tub on a comfort level is going to be differnt for each person.
So everyone should....
WET TEST!!!
WET TEST!!!
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com
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(1) The report is not independent in that it is (correctly) based upon dealers in your area, your body type, and your preferences.
(2) Barring that, I think someone is going to say "wow, he is a detailed guy so I'm not even going to look at a spa he didn't rate well". Which, I think, would be a shame.
(1) Please don't take this negatively, but I don't understand how your comment pertains to the word "independent." I think you probably meant to use the term "globally applicable" or something similar.
Since I have no agenda for or against any specific manufacturer, have limited my scope to personal experiences and observations, and even provided personal information to qualify them, I submit that the report I provided is absolutely independent. What is not valid is for anyone to interpret my findings as applicable to everyone else. There I agree with you and wrote repeated statements to that effect throughout the report.
An independent study does not require that every spa or dealer be evaluated. In fact I left my local dealers out of the report for that very reason. An independent study is based on a consistent set of review criteria, applied impartially to a specific test group. I don't think anyone would suggest I did otherwise.
<Ok... shields down  ;)>
(2) I have to agree with your concern which is why I went to so much effort to clarify the scope and intent of my report. However, it is a simple fact of life that some people might jump to conclusions where they shouldn't. Â
These would likely be the same type of people that are impulsive enough to buy a spa after hearing the dealer's sales pitch, and without every trying it. Goodness knows I've seen that happen quite a few times. Surely you wouldn't make the same statement about them? I certainly wouldn't. Once upon a time I was in retail sales myself and had to meet a regular quota. Â :o
Fortunately, I think you have little to be concerned with. the person that goes to the effort of researching spas on a forum like this, and reads through a 30 page report, is far less likely to do what you are worried about. I'm not sure who you are referring to that based their purchase decision on something I wrote. If you are referring to Poopsy's last post, there was only an agreement as to what features were important. I don't see any issue with that. Also, Poopsy specifically stated that no decision on a particular spa had been made.
Final Remarks: If someone took my review table and simply ran out to buy one of the spas at the top of my list, I think that would be a mistake. However I do hope my listing of review criteria will give people ideas on new factors to consider and features to evaluate. I also have no problem if their priority list of features is influenced by what they read. Isn't that what every dealer endeavors to accomplish when someone enters their store? The only difference is I'm not trying to sell anything and I have no interest in what spa is eventually purchased.
How I felt when sitting in each spa is definitely subjective. However, half of my review criteria were objective opinions as performance in those categories related to other spas I tested. My opinions on the local dealers never entered into the equation. Some may disagree with my opinions, but such is life with any 3rd party review, be it for cars, dishwashers, guitar strings, or hot tubs.
As for an approach that a beginner can use, How about making a personal review table. Anyone can make a list based on the review categories in the report's analysis table (maybe adding some others as well) and apply their own ratings. They can change their priority weights to their liking and use the same process.
In the words of Forrest Gump... "That's all I have to say about that." Â :D
Thanks for the feedback
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date=09/06/05 at 18:21:30]
[Final Remarks: If someone took my review table and simply ran out to buy one of the spas at the top of my list, I think that would be a mistake....
[/quote]
We are likely reading way too much into the "Some ones gonna buy this tub because duffman said too" idea. I think that most who put the effort into reading and posting on this board, have already shown that they are not that easily influenced. I have to admit I was a little bummed with how poorly, relatively speaking, you rated Artesian. I had to remind myself, your looking for the best tub for yourself, not telling me what I should buy. My dedication to researching the perfect tub, fell way short of the standard, that you and others have on this board have set. I dry tested a few (3) different manufactures, and the only one I wet tested was the one I bought. I did some reading on this forum and others, found positive reviews of my tub, and a few negative that didn't hold much water ;D. I'm not much of a comparison shopper, never have been, just not wired that way. While I have had some disappointments, for the most part I've been happy with my choices. While I fully understand, and even admire the dedication that you and others show prior to making an investment such as this, I don't buy into the ideal that wet test, wet test, wet test, is the only road to happiness. Some such as myself, at least I hope I'm not the only one, tend to shop until they find what they want and then go for it, fully realizing that they may be a better hot tub, car, big screen TV out there, but the degree I would find it better is insignificant compared to the anxiety and frustration I feel with too much shopping. I hope I didn't come off as argumentative, that was not my intent. I just wanted to point out that, just as there is no perfect tub, and the best tub for one individual is not necessarily the best (and may even be a bad choice) for an other, there is no one way to finding a tub that you will be happy with. Did I mention a hate shoping?
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We are likely reading way too much into the "Some ones gonna buy this tub because duffman said too" idea.
I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think it is an issue.
Regarding the Artesian, I was really hoping to try the upper-level spas with at least 3 pumps. One thing that I agree would be appropriate is to clarify that the Island series is a mid-level Artesian spa compared to the gold/platinum models. I really wanted to test those but there are none available in my area.
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lol......Bob,
I have to say You are not alone, When this thread started I was posting a response and my computer froze so it never hit the board, but what it was about, was that as dealers and I am sure it runs true for most of us....I think less than 10% of buyers wet test. We can encourage it we can welcome it but we also know most people simply do not do it. This is a great board to learn and to bounce opinions around, but for the average shopper or owner the fine folks on this board are the anomaly. I would just say sit back and enjoy whatever tub you are in and remember simply being in Hot Water and Jets no matter who makes it feels better than those who are not.
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i wet test and like more then 1..thats my issue...i cannot narrow it down!!
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i wet test and like more then 1..thats my issue...i cannot narrow it down!!
I agree and had the same challenge. A good challenge, but still a challenge.
That is why there are other factors than only wet testing. Wet testing is critical I think (I tested about 8 spas) but warrantee, features, and of course price were what made me decide. I could have been happy with at least 3 of the 8 I tested but in the end it came down to price and a balance of the features. I ended up buying an Epic. I got it last week and we love it!
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(1) Please don't take this negatively, but I don't understand how your comment pertains to the word "independent." I think you probably meant to use the term "globally applicable" or something similar.
No, I'm pretty sure I meant independent.
Independent certainly can mean self-governing which is how you take it. It can also mean (in a mathematical sense) not dependent on variables/context in which case it certainly can mean "globally applicable". Variables like body size, dealers, and hydrotherapy preference.
An independent study is based on a consistent set of review criteria, applied impartially to a specific test group.
Correct. But some of the review criteria are quantitative impressions of a qualitative subject. It is, therefore, an independent study customized for you, which means you have agreed to not bias yourself.
<Ok... shields down ;)>
I truly did not mean to offend. I think you said you were a Navy guy. I work at JHU/APL and I'm a bit of an analysis-geek in addition to a hot-tub geek. We can certainly just agree to disagree.
If you are referring to Poopsy's last post, there was only an agreement as to what features were important. I don't see any issue with that. Also, Poopsy specifically stated that no decision on a particular spa had been made.
Actually, I was referring to cappykat who wrote:
This would have influenced my decision if I had read this earlier.
Well, that and all the people saying "please review a Sundance" which means "please tell us what to think of Sundance" 8)
-Ed
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I truly did not mean to offend.
None taken 8)
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i wet test and like more then 1..thats my issue...i cannot narrow it down!!
Buy a dartboard and post pics on the board and throw a dart.....now if you can't decide which dartboard to buy for this then you are in big trouble.
Ray
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Great response Rayman! ;D
Hey Duffman; You aren't seriously considering purchasing or wet testing a H**en from that nut job are you? Â ???
http://
http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/index.html
Steve
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You've been very diligent and I commend your research!
I do have to say however that although statistics claim the average man to be 5'9" tall (and in my opinion everyone taller than that is a freak of nature ;)), I find that most people I sell to would be closer to 6 foot. This alone would greatly skew your research.
The single most important aspect of this "independent wet test" is that your placing opinion on a 30 minuet to one hour contact with that product...Owning a spa for a few years actually has much more credibility.
I'm amazed at how many people have commented on the things like seating, jetting and therapy systems not being perfect at the time of wet test yet the purchased anyway and after owning the product they picked they can't imagine having it any other way.
I would like to have been the salesperson on each and every spa you tested to keep some commonality to the process. Many salespeople have no clue of how to conduct a wet test to get the maximum credit out of the spa features for the customer. An example would be; if you where coming into my store to wet test, knowing that you where 5’ 6â€, I would lower the water level a bit on a deeper tub so that you felt more comfortable with the seating . I would also find out what your therapy hotspots where and try to directly address them during the test.
Here is a challenge to demonstrate this…If your ever in Colorado I would love to have you wet test a Marquis Epic with me Directing the test. I’m betting your whole outlook would be skewed!
Thanks for your efforts, people like you are a welcome addition!
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Duffman....I see your thinking about doing a wet test of the crazy man's tubs. Do a Phoenix.....same thing. Except you'll get a whole lot more mumbo jumbo usless scewed facts from him and his. His entire web site is a sales pitch with his interpritation of the facts.
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Duffman....I see your thinking about doing a wet test of the crazy man's tubs. Do a Phoenix.....same thing. Except you'll get a whole lot more mumbo jumbo usless scewed facts from him and his. His entire web site is a sales pitch with his interpritation of the facts.
Duffman,
Wet test to your heart's desire and maybe you'll even like it. The only thing I'd avoid is sending any money his way for a few reasons:
1) His spas are overpriced IMO (if you like his, look into the Phoenix clone for about 15% less),
2) Your warranty is about as valid as the promise you get from the guy who sells you a VCR at his garage sale and promises it works great,
3) With his litigation issues, you don't want to be one of the ones who sends him money when his house of cards collapses.
It's not the spa we question as much as it is the man who sells it and everthing else that comes with it. The spa may test well for all we know.
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To the many of you who dislike the practices of the company or representatives for this spa, I appreciate your concerns. Believe me, I have read enough posts on other forums to know them all by heart. However, at this time I really want to nip this subject in the bud.
At this time, I simply want to wet test one of the spas and form my own opinion on the comfort, feel, and construction. I will be as fair with my evaluation as with any other spa. In my report I will make it clear that this is a relatively small, internet-based company and that the company has to use subcontracted technicians for service since there are no dealers in most regions. Those subcontractors may or may not have experience working on those spas.
As you know I have been looking all over the internet at different spas. It was inevitable that I would happen across this brand. In an effort to keep this discussion topic on point I need to make one thing very clear: I accept no claims from any spa dealer that are unsupported by solid test results or from my own evaluation. In a separate forum discussion with the company president, I strongly recommended that he ought to re-think his marketing strategy and communication methods.
Bottom line: Given my concerns, it would have to be one heck of an impressive spa for me to consider it. Regardless, I think a lot of people, would be interested in an impartial wet test review. Â
For the wet test I can only comment on comfort relative to other spas and what I think of the power and feel of the jets. For the construction I can state opinions on the shell material and thickness, the material on the surround, observations on the base (sealed/unsealed), maintenance accessibility, the convenience and location of the controls, and the quality of the spa cover. I will absolutely not be able to comment positively or negatively about the systems on the spa which are the source of many internet arguments. (i.e., insulation and filtering)
I think this wet test topic has been a good one to date. It would be very disappointing to see it shut down because it devolved into the argumentative and useless threads similar to those I have seen on other forums. Â
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Boy, I'm no fan of the guy that get's under everyone's skin, but scanning back quickly-- I didn't see anything that suggested Duffman was seriously considering even testing, much less buying one of those spas. Â
It was on that spa salesman's website, not here. That's what you were missing.
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I visited that site once to see what all the hub-bub was about, and haven't been back since. Â As a non-industry person, I couldn't care less what he does or doesn't do, and while I find the banter regarding him entertaining at times, most of the time it is repetitious and tiresome. Â I deleted my previous post, since it lacked the context of the "other" site.
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Thanks Soakin. I appreciate your take on this
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Duffman,
How about reviewing a Beachcomber Hot Tub. Eventhough I have one, I would like to know what you think. Maybe a review of the 750, 730 or 580.
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Duffman,
How about reviewing a Beachcomber Hot Tub. Â Eventhough I have one, I would like to know what you think. Â Maybe a review of the 750, 730 or 580.
Hi marks. Thanks a million for changing the subject ;D
I have received a number of wet test requests to look into Beachcomber and Sundance. Unfortunately, the nearest dealers are an hour away from me. Â If I'm in the neighborhood sometime down the road, I'll try and make the time to check them out. Thanks again for the recommendation.
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Duffman,
How about reviewing a Beachcomber Hot Tub. Â Eventhough I have one, I would like to know what you think. Â Maybe a review of the 750, 730 or 580.
I am curious as to why it would matter to you....I think Duffman has done a great job in sharing HIS thoughts about each tub, but it only is his opinion and while he is very through and very well organized in presenting his opinions they are in the end only his thoughts. Also depending on the dealer he tests at and how THEY are about presenting all of the ways to operate the spa, ( look at his comments regarding Cal Spa) he may or may not get the chance to really get the most out of each spa. Before I became a dealer I Wet Tested some of the very spas he did and came away with very different feelings about them, it does not make either of us right or wrong. Duffman please do not take anything negatively I think you really have done a outstanding job of sharing your experience and I appreciate all of your time and efforts.
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Duffman,
That would be interesting. Before I bought my Beachcomber 580 I wet tested the following tubs.
Coleman 471
D1 Nautilus
Hot Springs Vangaurd
Sundance Optima
Tiger River Caspian
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Duffman,
I was not going to do this (why not create controversy) but here is my listing of what I liked. Number 1 the best and number 5 the one I liked the least. My analysis was based on gut feel and pure aesthetics (wife input). I eliminated CAL Spas, LA Spas and Baja Spas without a wet test.
1. Beachcomber 580
2. Sundance Optima
3. Coleman 471
4. Hot Springs Vangaurd
5. Tiger River Caspian
6. D1 Nautilus
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The irony is that the interaction with the company is the thing that we want folks to know about. Yes, the tubs have a lot of power. Yes, they have a lot of jets. The comfort is very subjective, and the lack of a local store in which a wet test can be accomodated is a big factor - combined with the questions about ETL listing.
So even though you have politely asked us to stop the back-and-forth, you must realize that's the whole point. What I mean is: how would YOU like to be the one trying to get something done after the sale? How about once you have (perhaps inadvertantly) angered this individula?
BTW - thanks for your work here. Some folks will have opinions which are very different from yours, but it is nice to be able to read about actual wet tests. I think it will have the net effect of encouraging folks to do so.
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The irony is that the interaction with the company is the thing that we want folks to know about.
I don't have any argument with your statement. I just ask that you understand the core issue behind my previous post. This is not a topic of discussion that belongs in this thread. Also, since history has shown that this particular topic of discussion has consistently led to fruitless arguments and numerous insults, I want to mitigate the risk of that happening here.
This thread is about wet test observations and experiences; not arguments about corporate practices, which dealer has better service, or which spa has the best insulation. I'm sure you agree there are many other threads where that information is regularly discussed. The funny thing is that most of them are in the "Beating a Dead Horse" section. Do you want this thread to end up there? I certainly don't.
Best regards,
Duffman
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This thread is becoming TOO long to read and repetitious. Although I appreciate the time and effort Duffman has put into his evaluations...bottom line is they are HIS test results and are subjective. I think he has even stated this. I'll repeat Mendo's comment.
I am curious as to why it would matter to you....I think Duffman has done a great job in sharing HIS thoughts about each tub, but it only is his opinion and while he is very through and very well organized in presenting his opinions they are in the end only his thoughts. Also depending on the dealer he tests at and how THEY are about presenting all of the ways to operate the spa, ( look at his comments regarding Cal Spa) he may or may not get the chance to really get the most out of each spa. Before I became a dealer I Wet Tested some of the very spas he did and came away with very different feelings about them, it does not make either of us right or wrong. Duffman please do not take anything negatively I think you really have done a outstanding job of sharing your experience and I appreciate all of your time and efforts.
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I am curious as to why it would matter to you....
I am respectfully curious why so many posters seem worried about how other readers will use Duffman's opinions. Are you concerned that the people sophisticated enough to do some of their buying research on-line aren't able to discern that Duffman is not "Consumer Reports"? Please give the rest of us sheep a little credit :-/ ;).
I didn't see that he presented himself as an authority, just someone who researched a bunch of tubs methodically and was willing to share his opinions. I also saw disclaimers from him regarding what he did and didn't evaluate, that these were just his opinions, he didn't have the opportunity to test everything on the market, and the like. He has been willing to admit mistakes and the validity of other points of view when challenged. What more do you want?
It seems natural to me that people would be curious of his opinions of their tubs since he tried so many -- or others that they are considering, just like I was curious why my neighbor chose his new Honda over a Toyota, or why my sister-in-law thinks her son's school is better than another.
Oops, a friday sermon! ;D
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This is not a topic of discussion that belongs in this thread. Also, since history has shown that this particular topic of discussion has consistently led to fruitless arguments and numerous insults, I want to mitigate the risk of that happening here.
Thanks for your very civil way of saying that! I too wish to avoid unpleasant and repetitive discourse.
But part of the wet testing process is, in fact, interacting with the dealer. So, I would ask that we don't get into a regurgitation of the same ol' arguments, but by the same token, I would ask that you keep in mind that EVERYONE who buys a tub of this particular brand must go through the individual in question. And as such, I would also ask you to be aware that the whole buying experience and more importantly the whole ownership experience - again in the case of this brand - will depend upon this one individual and their ability to be helpful or not.
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bottom line is they are HIS test results and are subjective. Â I think he has even stated this. Â
I agree that many of my observations are subjective. However, about half of my review categories are objective relative to other spas I tested. Also, I think it is interesting that many people have commented about my observations only being valid for me. That doesn't mean it is not good information for shoppers to read. Here's why...
As a key example, let's look at the most subjective set of observations: Seating comfort and jet placement. I hope that what people take away from my observations is the fact that some spas have more sculpting to their seating than others. I can confidently state that spas with very sculpted seating will be comfortable to fewer people then those with open, less sculpted seating. Â After reading this type of information, perhaps some would wet test a spa where they didn't consider it before. That is a good thing in my opinion. Â
For jet placement, when I state that I am 5'6" and wrist or foot jets are out of reach on a specific spa, I think that's good, qualitative information for a shopper. Someone my height or shorter might be more concerned with those models and reconsider them. Perhaps they might wet test them when they never had before. People who are taller might react by saying hmmm that might fit me perfectly but I'll bring my wife along for the wet test to be sure she's ok with it. These are the kind of thoughts/responses I would hope people could take away.
I do agree with the feedback I have read regarding the dealers you will be doing business with. Once you find one or more spas you would be happy with, it is very important to consider the dealer who will be providing service. Check them out on the Better Business Bureau and other similar websites. Ask for references if available who can attest to their service experience. Also, double check the warranty to make sure the manufacturer is confident in their product and that there are no nit-picky warranty conditions that might void their responsibility to you.
I want to conclude by saying that I have received a lot of great e-mails from other spa shoppers. Not one of them said that my report changed their mind on a spa they liked, but many said that it made them consider factors that they had not thought of before. That's fantastic! Also, I have seen quite a bit of feedback from people who just realized the benefits of wet testing and was thankful that they tried out their spa before buying it; One in particular decided to start wet testing and found that a couple spas didn't feel as good as they looked. Eventually he found the right one. This is just the kind of feedback that made my litle hobby worthwhile. Â :D
I'll start a new thread if any additional spas make it into the report. There have been a lot of hits since I recently posted it. Also, I have seen many posts and received numerous e-mails from shoppers and dealers who are referring customers and friends to that link. That alone has been quite gratifying.
Considering the sidetrack this link took today, I do agree that cappykat is probably right about locking down this thread. Â Otherwise it will just be another dead horse. In fact, I already suggested as much to both moderators. Therefore, this will be my last post here.
It was truly a pleasure and a privilege to contribute to this forum. Thanks to everyone for your constructive feedback. Â :)
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I am respectfully curious why so many posters seem worried about how other readers will use Duffman's opinions. Â Are you concerned that the people sophisticated enough to do some of their buying research on-line aren't able to discern that Duffman is not "Consumer Reports"? Please give the rest of us sheep a little credit :-/ ;).
I didn't see that he presented himself as an authority, just someone who researched a bunch of tubs methodically and was willing to share his opinions. Â I also saw disclaimers from him regarding what he did and didn't evaluate, that these were just his opinions, he didn't have the opportunity to test everything on the market, and the like. Â He has been willing to admit mistakes and the validity of other points of view when challenged. Â What more do you want?
It seems natural to me that people would be curious of his opinions of their tubs since he tried so many -- or others that they are considering, just like I was curious why my neighbor chose his new Honda over a Toyota, or why my sister-in-law thinks her son's school is better than another.
Oops, a friday sermon! ;D
My curiosity was genuine and since the direct question was about a spa that someone already owns and to being really interested in what someone says about it that is going to spend probably no more than 30 minutes in ....to me seems a bit useless and again this is only because this person already owns it and since it is all subjective as to what each of our own preferences are and since unless they are of the exact same build and height than it will not even fit them the same way, his thoughts about it in the end just may not be of to much importance ......To be very direct I am amazed at the things people read and will place so much value upon them ..... From someone who used to be in Home Audio for 7 years what I could never understand was when someone had to have a certain product because someone wrote that it was better than another and while it was true that yes it may have had less THD it was of no usefulness because while being lower, both products were already below what the human ear could hear ....If you think people are not influenced by what someone writes and when done in a very credible way, than I most respectfully but strongly disagree with you.
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I agree that many of my observations are subjective. However, about half of them are objective relative to other spas I tested. Also, I think it is interesting that many people have commented about my observations only being valid for me. That does not mean it is good information for shoppers to read. Here's why...
 :)
Duffman, again let me say to you Thank you .....I think your opinions and feed back and the manner in which you shared your experiences with the spas you tested , was of great help to many. I hope in none of my posts regarding this ever reflected anything less than that. While we disagree in the results with some of the spas you liked and I did not care for . My whole point was that each person needs to find out what is best for them. Again Thank you for doing such a well laid and through job in sharing your opinions.
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My curiosity was genuine...If you think people are not influenced by what someone writes and when done in a very credible way, than I most respectfully but strongly disagree with you.
Mendo, I hope you know that I respect your opinion and I wasn't questioning your sincerity in asking the question. Â My curiousity regarding the repeated warnings was also genuine.
Yes, people can be influenced by a well delivered message, but I certainly did not have the sense that Duffman was pushing any agenda that the rest of us needed to be protected from. Â We're all big kids here. Â
As far as someone asking his opinion on a spa they already own, haven't you ever looked at a review of a car in your garage, a concert you went to, or asked the person you went to the movies with how they liked it? Â It's not going to change anything, it's just nice to know what someone else thinks.
Less you fear we are all under Duffman's spell, I didn't really pay much attention to what he concluded, I just found it interesting that anyone would take the time to wet-test that many spas and write about it. Â I think he may need to "get a life", but that is a topic for another thread on a psychology site (just kidding, Duffman ;) -- well, kind of ;D). Â I am not in the market for a new tub, and even if I were -- I am 6'1", and my wife is 5'9 (feeble attempt at levity censored by humorless spouse)), so his ergonomic info wouldn't be of much use to us. Â Neither would the info on jet power, because we tend to use massage power for only a few minutes and then turn the pumps down and relax. Â I suspect most readers would also be able to determine what aspects of his posts were applicable to them and which weren't. Â
Now look what I've done -- as if one sermon wasn't enough. :P Â Have a good weekend!
Cal
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lol....I am to tired to continue this.....lets just all have soak and enjoy that we can....... ;)
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Less you fear we are all under Duffman's spell, I didn't really pay much attention to what he concluded
The only people who should pay attention to what Duffman concluded are Duffman and, perhaps, Duffman.
However, everyone should pay attention to the process he followed.
Asking Duffman to go out of hisway and wet test a bunch of spas is a little odd for a few reasons:
1. It's clearly out of his way, especially if it is a spa he is not interested in or a spa that is not nearby.
2. It's not clear how his conclusions will relate to anyone else. Objective comparisons of the type we are seeing "# jets, placements, etc" can be observed by *anyone* who is focused on looking including, presumably, the person asking for the comparison!
3. To say you read all of that work and then disregard it (not under the spell) does Duffman a diservice. He has done alot of good work. Most of that work was for himself, but he has also outlined a wonderful approach that others should take into consideration. It's just an approach that requires some discipline and focus (which Duffman, apparently, has in spades) to do correctly.
The purpose of this board is clearly not to make me feel better. However, I would feel better if we stopped getting (result-oriented) questions like "ooh, ooh, test my tub too" and got more (process-oriented) questions regarding how to maintain consistency between wet tests, what items to look for based on height, weight, seating-type, etc...
So instead of
"Duffy, what do you think of the Nimbus 2000"
one might say
"I'm a 6'9" tall 120lb guy who gets sore elbows. My wife is 5'5. I've been looking at a few tubs and was wondering, as I wet test, which things should I really pay attention to as I want to customize my wet testing for myself and my family and my usage patterns and just need help in understanding what I might be overlooking during my wet tests."
If you want reasons to exclude certain tubs I would look at other things like service and engineering (filtration, framing, plumbing, electronics, customer support, warranty, etc...). ANYTHING relating to comfort (even # jets that can run at once) requires a wet test, not an internet opinion -- even a shiny, organized, and honest internet opinion.
-Ed
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Ed,
You are taking life to seriously. It’s just a hot tub. Why can’t someone ask Duffman’s opinion about their tub, isn’t this what forums are all about.
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I'm with Ed on this. As orginized and thought out Duffmans wet tests were is of no importance to your own wet test. As what your looking for in a tubs comfort or value may be completely different than what he is looking for. However the process he used to decide what was best for him is the most thorough I have seen and should be noted.
Did you rate the sales man you talk to also as far as personality and respect for others?
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I think the point of asking Duffman his opinion is he has looked at and sat in many tubs and is not a salesperson with a hidden or upfront agenda. Many of his comments are his perceptions based on seeing many spas. He has avoided the he said/she said of the industry and has stuck to mostly tangible observations, not all of which are based on his 5'6" frame. Since he has taken the time to do a lot of research, people want to leverge off of that, hence the request to test some additional spas. I thought his observations were very fair.
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The only people who should pay attention to what Duffman concluded are Duffman and, perhaps, Duffman...To say you read all of that work and then disregard it (not under the spell) does Duffman a diservice...
So which is it Ed? ;)
Duffman has said he is done with this and so am I, but I didn't want to leave it appearing to "dis" Duffman's efforts. Â I was trying to explain why the "test results" were not applicable to my personal situation (which seems to be your point), and illustrate to Mendo that he needn't worry that people were considering Duffman the definitive word on spas.
That said, I still feel that it is OK to ask other people their opinions, and we don't need "thought police" telling us which are acceptable questions and which aren't. :)
Have a good weekend everyone!
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I think the post that made me ponder this further was cappycats that stated "This would have influenced my decision if I had read this earlier".
No one here questions duffmans efforts or input. I think that's a given. I do think the question is how much any one person takes his observations and is swayed by them. Duffman has made it clear that these are HIS opinions and don't necessarily reflect a guide to purchasing a spa for the masses. Nor do I think that the people that come on here to gain information are too stupid to understand that.
I think the suggestion of some salespeople being offended by these results and questioning them, is ludicrous. I don't believe that for a second and most everyone here that represents one brand in particular has always maintained that not every company has the best spa for everyone. Give US some credit... ::)
I think that every consumer should read duffmans finding as it will help them discern the key principles of a thorough shopper and will certainly help them through the buying process in part. In no way will it negatively impact them unless they assume that what's right for one, must be for everybody. There are many posts, including duffmans, that make this suggestion clear that people need to wet test for themselves.
There's nothing to argue about here I don't think...
Steve
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I think the post that made me ponder this further was cappycats that stated "This would have influenced my decision if I had read this earlier".
No one here questions duffmans efforts or input. I think that's a given. I do think the question is how much any one person takes his observations and is swayed by them. Duffman has made it clear that these are HIS opinions and don't necessarily reflect a guide to purchasing a spa for the masses. Nor do I think that the people that come on here to gain information are too stupid to understand that.
I think the suggestion of some salespeople being offended by these results and questioning them, is ludicrous. I don't believe that for a second and most everyone here that represents one brand in particular has always maintained that not every company has the best spa for everyone. Give US some credit... ::)
I think that every consumer should read duffmans finding as it will help them discern the key principles of a thorough shopper and will certainly help them through the buying process in part. In no way will it negatively impact them unless they assume that what's right for one, must be for everybody. There are many posts, including duffmans, that make this suggestion clear that people need to wet test for themselves.
I agree Steve but I would bet money that had I been the person conducting the test for Duffman and showing him how to get the most out of each feature on any of the brands I could have changed the outcome of his opinion. I see it everyday
There's nothing to argue about here I don't think...
Steve
So is that why your post was so short??? ;) ;)
kinda like when you dial the wrong number...your wife can always tell because you only had a 30 minuet conversation with the person on the other end.....
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I think that every consumer should read duffmans finding as it will help them discern the key principles of a thorough shopper and will certainly help them through the buying process in part. In no way will it negatively impact them unless they assume that what's right for one, must be for everybody. There are many posts, including duffmans, that make this suggestion clear that people need to wet test for themselves.
There's nothing to argue about here I don't think...
Steve
I agree with you....I do not think anyone here slighted duffman in anyway and most everyone expressed an appreciation for his efforts ....I think those like myself who reminded others that theses were just his opinions and while very through and seemly very unbiased that in the end you need find the spa that is best for you....and this was only because of a few comments made by others.....but the bottom line is Duffman did a great job in sharing his opinions and observations on the spas he tried.
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So is that why your post was so short??? ;) ;)
.....
I see it's pick on Steve day eh? ;) Vegas '06...You and Mendo...outside behind the bike racks! >:(
;D
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I see it's pick on Steve day eh? ;) Vegas '06...You and Mendo...outside behind the bike racks! >:(
;D
I'll be there with my skate board....
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lol...
There....due to peer pressure, I have rebranded myself! ;D
Steve
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lol...
There....due to peer pressure, I have rebranded myself! ;D
Steve
ahhh Steve,
Seeing you dance in your spidey suit was the best part of this site....man you took the time to film it so strut it....don't be shy......(look at Chas he has no suit on at all )..I am about to go into production with me my bat cape, bat tool belt.....and a bigggg grinnnnnn.......
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"Duffy, what do you think of the Nimbus 2000"
-Ed
Who makes the Nimbus 2000? ;)
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I see it's pick on Steve day eh? ;) Vegas '06...You and Mendo...outside behind the bike racks! >:(
;D
As long as Mendo is on my side....I'M THERE! (You won't be able to see me with him in front though!)
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Seriously, I must admit that I read the first 2 pages and then skipped to the end. I must say that Duffman is very complete in his research; must be the engineering thing. However, as thorough as it is, everyone should remember that it is subjective ( that means opinion, Steve ;) ) and not objective ( factual) in nature. Which he repeatedly stated.
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I said this thread is becoming too long and repetitious...yet I continue to read it??
Yes, after I read the initial review from Duffman, I thought...you know this might have changed my decision. Â Now in retrospect...I don't think it would have. Â For me and my husband it was the wet test. Â Yes, we wanted a quality tub with certain features and ultimately we felt we got it in the Marquis Epic.
Â
Since we have not taken delivery yet...reading something like Duffman's reviews does tend to make you second guess yourself. Â I think once we actually GET our tub we will find we made the right decision for US.
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hey duffman,
I am extremely happy that you've done the homework. I know you will enjoy the spa to fullest extent, nevermind the job offers you might be getting...
Like JMcD, I was a little dissappointed that there wasn't Sundance on the list because I would love to read what you think about their spas. I'm not even concerned about you buying it, just wishing I had that much feedback about these spas.
Good Job bud,
Joe
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Since we have not taken delivery yet...reading something like Duffman's reviews does tend to make you second guess yourself. I think once we actually GET our tub we will find we made the right decision for US.
I think that second guessing your self durring the wait is fairly common, given the amount of information you can find on this forum. I started second guessing myself about a week after I ordered my tub. This was before duffman started posting, so we can't blame all this second guessing on him ;). We sometimes get caught up thinking that there is a perfect tub out there and if we look long enough we will find it. The truth is there are some very good tubs from which to choose, each will excell and each have some shortcommings, most of which will be subjective anyway. For the most part, now that I have my tub, the second guessing went away. Now if I could just get my deck finished :-/
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I was a little dissappointed that there wasn't Sundance on the list
Another spa shopper who lives in my area contacted me to say the nearest Sundance dealer (> 70 miles) doesn't do wet tests.
At the time I was considering a nice Sunday drive in that area with my dog Indiana. I had thought that I might stop by. Well I'll be darned but the information was right. This dealer doesn't keep any spas set up for wet testing
That's a first for me ::)
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I cant believe a dealer would not have 1 spa wet to demo on. Thats terrible.
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Thank you for the tremendous service you have done in this review. Have you ever had a chance to look at the Bulldog hot tubs or do you plan to in the near future?
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Duffman,
What spa did you end up going with? Pehaps you are still collecting more research info?
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The neat thing about reading Duffman's Report is that he seems to be simply saying,
Not: what hot tub to buy.
But: how to buy a hot tub.
In regard to requests for further reviews such as Sundance, Hydropool 625 (that's mine haha!), Beachcomber, etc., it's a proven fact that many consumers (sometimes myself included) like to read reviews after making a purchase, seldom before. This is to validate and confirm the purchase one has already made. The Seal of Approval Factor so to speak. How many times have you sought out a review after a purchase?
When his Report has found fault (or dislike) - perceived for the multiple variables in spa design that he prefers - offense has been taken no matter how many disclaimers he makes to the contrary. This is relayed as a perceived personal affront on one's wisdom as a consumer [or Dealer!] with a barely contained civility. His undertaking is a task seldom met with any responsibility, impartiality or conclusion in any regard - from what I've seen in my relatively short exposure to the spa industry. As evidence of this, Duffman's report and posts are so popular and widely read, as much for originality as their rarity.
I applaud Duffman his effort, honesty and consistency. Far too often when one seeks out 'reviews' or 'reports' on hot tubbing, we are met with yet another page of ads or useless links to remote dealers down endless blind alleys. The best part of his reports to me, is his 'personalization' of the tubbing process and the informed, matter of fact tone he utilizes, which better defines the criteria, individualized decision making process and standards we should be seeking.
Kudos, man. Kudos! Can't wait to read more...!
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I agree with the “review after purchase†statement. Sometimes I find a review that helps me use my product better or to it’s fullest potential.
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Hey Duff, nice report
I have an Epic and I can appreciate your comments. Â One thing that I often find is that more than half the people in the spa at any one time don't wan't their jets on. Â Just soaking seems to be fine. Â With this in mind, I find that the biggest flaw in your report is that you don't own a spa yet. Â I am sure that you will find that your priority list will change dramatically. Â We all have different needs and I think that it would be interesting to see this report opened (on your part) to include input from other shoppers (before) and then these same people after they have purchased.
I for example wanted in no particular order
A quality product
Good support.
A local dealer
A good filtration system
A good insulation system (including cover)
I have young children (and a bunch of neighbor kids too)so an open concept is nice
When the kids are in bed, a nice spa for four to six adults is nice
I gave my wife the final decision on the tub, the colour and "2 buy or not 2 buy".
We found the best spa for our family.
In short, your review is good, but you need to get into some hot water and then let us know how you feel. Good luck on your decision
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it's a proven fact that many consumers (sometimes myself included) like to read reviews after making a purchase, seldom before. This is to validate and confirm the purchase one has already made. The Seal of Approval Factor so to speak. How many times have you sought out a review after a purchase
I agree with this statement 100%.
So Duffman, have you made YOUR decision yet? The only negative about finally buying is "the hunt is over". I was really getting caught up in all this.
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Hey Duffman,
I live by a combo of your killer reviews and wet testing. that's why you have to evaluate Sundance for all your fans out there.
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It looks like the Duffman is off on the next research project. ::)
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I have been looking at tubs for a few months and thought I would share my experience. This is the second time around for me. I researched back in 1998 and bought a Sundance Optima. Very nice spa for me. Comfortable seats. The therapy seat (the accusage seat) is very strong, the large rotating jets are nice, and the foot dome is effective. Only major problem was a circuit board freeze (electronic freeze, not cold freeze), and it was replaced under warranty no questions asked by my dealer. I lost the tub in a divorce and am looking for a new one. Obviously, all reactions to spas are subjective, and I completely agree with so many people on this forum that all people are different and different people will like and dislike different things in a spa. I am relatively small (5'6",150 lbs, and 54 years old), athletic, and I like alot of pressure from the jets. With all that said, here are my wet test impressions. Marquis Reward. It did not fit me. I am too short. Some seats were ok, but overall it would fit a taller person better. Also, I did not like the zone therapy concept at all. I prefer having the pumps and power divided by seating location. Marquis' thing is large jets with alot of water volume and low pressure. This did nothing for me, but I am sure it is great for some people. Tiger River Caspian. Very quiet. Seemed very solidly built. Comfortable seating for me. It sat shallow overall, not a deep seating tub. Only moderate power and pressure at the jets. Emerald Vantage. Three 2.5 hp pumps (continuous) and a large circ pump. Lots of power and pressure. Whirlpool jet is the most power I have ever felt in a spa. Seating not comfortable for me. I floated in the lounge and could not get comfortable in the main therapy seat. A larger person might react very differently. The jets seemed low quality to me. Ditfficult to adjust and the spinners had to be just so to spin freely. Emerald Cygnus. More comfortable for me than the Vantage. Reverse lounger. One way worked for me, the other way did not, which means it is probably well designed. Unique plumbing. Two 2.5 hp pumps plumbed together. The first pump goes to all the jets, and so does the second, adding power. Individual jets can be turned off to vary the power at the other jets. Good power and pressure, but not great. This tub has a blower (as does the Vantage) which works great if you like air bubbles. Also, the blower adds air and pressure to the jets. Not a huge difference, but noticable. Again the jets seemed cheap. I think they are Pentair. Artesian Piper Glen. Cadillac type spa. Five 3 bhp pumps (1.5 continuous I believe), one for each main seat. Big tub. Roomy. Deep. Power and pressure was moderate, not enough for my taste, but I am sure many would like it. Foot jets again did not enough power for my taste. My impression was that the therapy is subtle, ajustable with the air and the individual water volume controls. Artesian Island Captiva. Deep seating tub. But not too deep even for me at 5'6". Real good, strong power and pressure at the jets ( only the Sundance accusage seat is stronger in my limited experience). The tub I tested had two 6hp pumps (3 hp continuous I believe), a 3hp (1.5 continuous I believe). and a circ pump. The 3 hp ran the single foot/whirlpool jet. Real good power. The 6 hp pumps each ran one side of the spa, diverting between the cornor seats. Individual jets could be turned off also. The spinning jets are great. All jets are medium or small, no large jets, which would be nice to add some variety to the massage. Good finish and seemed to be good quality. The tub fit me very well. I hope to test a few more tubs before I buy, but this process, while great fun, takes alot of time. Right now, I lean toward the Captiva. I like the tub, and the dealer is my old Sundance dealer. He is great. Low pressure and very accomadating. He comes from service and lets me review alot of his dealer literature so I can learn about the tubs he sells. But none of the dealers have been high pressure or overbearing. No complaints in that regard.
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I've been away from the board for a while but thought I'd check in.
As I stated in my last posts, I am still waiting to complete my backyard landscaping and electrical work before I make my decision.
I would like to respond to a previous post from "cola" regarding my report and the fact that I do not yet own a spa. My simple answer to that is I do not yet own a spa at my current residence. I have owned and regularly used many spas over the last 20 years with friends and family. This is not something new to me. Â I agree that many people just like to soak and don't want the jets. However, I clearly state that it is my personal preference to have the ability to provide a good massage to all of the jets. Cola's observation that the people he knows generally prefer to soak is also a valid opinion, but it should not be asserted as a statement of fact. My preference is based on my experience with family and my circle of friends, and that most of them don't just want to soak. They prefer the jets. This is why balanced power is such an important factor for me. I certainly would not suggest it has to be a high priority factor for everyone else.
Once again, my thanks to everyone for all the positive and constructive feedback. I'm pleased to see an increase in the number of posts from people who are wet testing before they buy.
So long for now.
Duffman
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Bump for xrdirthead. :)
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Wow, whatever happened to the Duffman?
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Thanks Reese....this is a good read for sure. I would like to be somewhat thorough on my quest but WOW I don't know if I could be half the man of a Duffman.....
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Basing my search on someone else's wet test review.........you gotta be kiddin' me. :-/
Now someone's review about their actual experience w/ owning the tub, worthwhile. :D
Just my 2 cents.
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Wow, whatever happened to the Duffman?
I think he was replaced by the Fuddman.
(You'd have to be a "The Simpsons" fan to understand)
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I enjoyed reading all of this thread but have one issue with one of Duffman's statements:
He said that "all spas have diverter valves". Not true. I have owned 2 different brands not having diverter valves and doubt that I'd ever buy a brand that does.