Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Vermonter on January 08, 2007, 11:59:24 am
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Hmmm...I've hesitated posting this question for fear of starting up another round of "ozone" debate. Not a bad thing, necessarily, just it's not the purpose of my post.
For the moment, let's just say my ozonator (HS original equipment) for my 2001 HS has gone belly-up and, ONLY BECAUSE I LIKE TO LOOK AT BUBBLES, I want to replace it (I know, I know, I can have bubbles without being "ozone" bubbles!!).
With that thought in mind, can anyone help me out with options for ozonators that would be directly compatible with my Grandee? Cost is a factor (one reason I'm looking for alternatives to another HS ozonator), I'm out of the 5-year warrenty period so I don't need to worry about potential "if you don't use our equipment..." type of concerns and I really would like the highest output unit available (HS FW III may be that unit).
Does anyone have some advice?
Thanks!
Best,
Vermonter
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Here you go. http://www.scarritt.com/storozone12.htm. We install them all the time. Works great. $205.00 + $9.00 shipping. Similar in size, sorry, no pic.
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Here you go. http://www.scarritt.com/storozone12.htm. We install them all the time. Works great. $205.00 + $9.00 shipping. Similar in size, sorry, no pic.
Is this it?
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/tileman_photos/FW3.gif)
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JED has a high output ozonator. JED 203. http://www.jedengineering.com/corona_discharge.htm
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http://www.jedengineering.com/corona_discharge.htm
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Vermonter, I've heard the Del Platinum Eclipse Ozonator is a decent unit. I belive Chas has had experience with these.
http://www.delozone.com/products-resid-spas-plat.html
Here's one on ebay for $155.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Del-PLATINUM-Spa-Eclipse-HIGH-OUTPUT-CD-Ozone-Ozonator_W0QQitemZ190068359507QQihZ009QQcategoryZ20729QQcmdZViewItem
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I was referring to the JED unit. We do sell the freshwater iii unit, but the JED costs less.
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I am not intending to hijack this thread but how do you know for sure if the ozonator is working or not. On my 20002 grandee I have the small bubles but on my control panel I don't have an indicator light illuminated for the ozonator. I did clean with vinegar per the manual.
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I am not intending to hijack this thread but how do you know for sure if the ozonator is working or not. On my 20002 grandee I have the small bubles but on my control panel I don't have an indicator light illuminated for the ozonator. I did clean with vinegar per the manual.
If you have small bubbles coming out of the little port on the bottom of your tub, like you said, you have one. :)
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If you have small bubbles coming out of the little port on the bottom of your tub, like you said, you have one. :)
Isn't it the 24 hour circ pump that produces the small bubbles, not the ozonator?
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I know I have one but do bubbles alone mean it is working properly? The manual states I should have an indicator light on my control panel and I don't.
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Isn't it the 24 hour circ pump that produces the small bubbles, not the ozonator?
It's to my understanding that the little bubbles are filled with ozone and if you don't have a tub with an ozonator but you do have a circ pump, the water just comes out like the end of a hose(no bubbles).
Fish, try sticking your nose right above where the little bubbles break surface and see if there's a sweet smell.(kinda like fresh cut watermelon)
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First, bubbles alone do not necessarily mean you are producing ozone (see my third paragraph here). The bubbles are, indeed, only the result of the venturi action of the Mazzei injector. I have totally removed my ozonator and still have the same number of bubbles as with it in place.
Second, in my case, the small in-line check valve failed and even with a loop of the injector tubing going high up in the equipment cabinet, somehow water entered the ozonator itself. In trying to take the ozonator apart to see if I could fix it...well, let's just say the fitting located at the outlet of the corona discharge unit (you sort of have to open the unit up to see it) is no longer intact. I might be able to buy a replacement fitting (it's not a standard plumbing fitting), but at this point I'm leaning to replacing the whole unit. I expect the water did irreparable damage to the corona discharge unit.
Third, there was a question on "how do you know if you're getting ozone" if you have bubbles (regardless of whether there is a light or a buzz or some other "indicator". There are a couple of ways to tell this. If you are familiar with the smell of ozone, then when you open up your spa cover after an hour or so of being closed, the off-gas of the ozone (the wasted part of the ozone - which is wel probably over 90% of the applied dose) is in the airspace above the water and below the cover. You should always have the distinct ozone "smell" greet you - if you don't, then either the ozonator isn't working or perhaps the line is plugged. You can also use a fairly simple "capture" technique to collect the bubbles in an inverted cup / bottle (holding the collection vessel at the bottom of the spa so the bubbles rise into it and displace the water), put your hand over the opening of the container, raise it out of the tub and invert it (so the opening is now up) and quickly remove your hand and smell the "air" in the bottle. If it is pungent, then it's ozone - if it doesn't smell, repeat it a couple of times, but if the results are the same and you still don't smell it, then the ozonator is not putting out ozone (at least into the tub).
Vermonter
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Vermonter thank you for the reply. I will try your method to verify ozone presence. Now more than ever i wonder about something that is that hard to prove it is present
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Thanks for clearing that up for us Vermonter. I wish you were here more often. :)
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fish and Why Not,
Thanks!
A little more info on the "ozone capture" approach. I've had the most success with a straight-walled, clear glass type of container. If you have a glass tumbler (even if it's tapered), that's probably OK. Let the container fill with water and then invert it (opening down) and put it over the bubbles. Tip the container so that as the bubbles rise into the glass container, the water is displaced. You don't need to go more than half-way - even that may be hard, depending on the container (if you tip it too much, all the gas escapes). At some point you'll have gas collected in the top (which is the bottom) half or third of the container (you can see this if you use a glass container) with water in the rest. Put your hand or some flat material over the top of the glass (which is actually on the bottom since the glass is inverted) and raise the whole thing to the surface of your water. Invert the container (so now it is has the opening "up"), put your nose right next to the top of the glass and remove your hand or whatever is covering it and immediately breathe in. I think Why Not described the smell as sort of like a fresh-cut watermelon - that's pretty close! Ozone also is what you smell if you breathe in near a copier after making a number of copies. It is sort of sweet / pungent. Anyway, if you smell anything other than "nothing" you almost certainly have ozone. CAUTION: ozone is an irritant and if you happen to have a lot of ozone collected, you might wind up coughing for a cough or two. So...you might want to do this several times - breathe in carefully the first time, but if you don't smell anything, you can repeat and breathe in a bit deeper.
If this isn't clear or if you have questions, let me know.
Best,
Vermonter
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Hi Vermonter,
I like the Microzone 300 made by ClearWater Tech. It has a real CD chamber, not a chip, and produces 300mg/hr @ 5 SCFH. It also has 0-100% variable output. You can view it at their website at cwtozone. It won't be totally plug and play since they supply it with a standard 120 volt electrical plug or a bare cord only. I usually replace the proprietary female hot spring receptacle on the tub with a standard female receptacle. You could, however, splice your hot spring plug on to the ozonator cord if you desired. I like the standard plug since it makes future options easy. Don't use the check valves that they supply since they require too much pressure to open, get some Del check valves instead and use two of them in line. If you would like further contact and pricing info PM me. I usually turn down the output so as not to produce too much off gassing.
Oscar
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Vermonter
Thanks again. After I tried your method I think my ozonator is not working. I do think I observed a slight odor from the glass but not strong and not at all like watermellon. I might compare it to a friends tub but I am pretty sure it is shot.
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Thank-you; expecially to the four or so who referenced a specific ozonator.
I'm trying to compare ozone outputs for the ones listed (and HS's FW III) and have incomlete information so far.
JED 203 is 0.1 g / hour (100 mg / hour)
Microzone 300 is 0.3 g / hour (300 mg / hour)
HotSpring FW III - unknown (indicated as proprietary)
Del Platinum Spa Eclipse - unknown
I have not tried contacting the manufacturers of the last two to see if I can get their output spec.
Thank-you all for your help - I'm going to continue to try to get specs on these and perhaps a few others before I decide.
Vermonter
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In trying to take the ozonator apart to see if I could fix it...well, let's just say the fitting located at the outlet of the corona discharge unit (you sort of have to open the unit up to see it) is no longer intact. I might be able to buy a replacement fitting (it's not a standard plumbing fitting), but at this point I'm leaning to replacing the whole unit.
Vermonter
This is exactly what happened to my ozonator. I am taking a different approach. I have removed it and will go without one for a while.
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After some digging around on the Del website I found this occult info via their product library, then Platinum Spa Eclipse, and then Specifications.
Del Platinum Spa Eclipse Ozone output:
490 ppm @ .6 scfh
16 mg/hr (+/- 15%)
Sure is hard to get an apples to apples comparison in this field.
P.S. I believe the HotSpring Freshwater III unit is made by Del. Could be close to Platinum Spa Eclipse in different packaging???
Good luck and please keep us posted on your decision making process as you go forward.
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I talked to the folks at Del today. They said that they do make the Freshwater III unit, but it is unlike anything else they make. They said it lasts longer and puts out 50mg/hour to a Minimum concentration of 800ppm. They said that the concentration is the key, but I don't quite understand that.
I know this: I have run the FWIII on many spas, and the thing puts out enough ozone that I wouldn't want more. At least not without some sort of offgassing vessel, or at the very least a longer contact chamber.
8-)
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It's to my understanding that the little bubbles are filled with ozone and if you don't have a tub with an ozonator but you do have a circ pump, the water just comes out like the end of a hose(no bubbles).
Fish, try sticking your nose right above where the little bubbles break surface and see if there's a sweet smell.(kinda like fresh cut watermelon)
The above quote is exactly correct WHY NOT....Take it from someone who didn't even know they had an ozonator until it started working magically one day, you can smell the difference! For 3 months I just felt the hot water circulating up thru the floor drain, then one day I had bubbles and odor. Also, I sure don't need to get near the bubbles to smell it...as soon as I lift the cover it's there...very strong odor!
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I talked to the folks at Del today. They said that they do make the Freshwater III unit, but it is unlike anything else they make. They said it lasts longer and puts out 50mg/hour to a Minimum concentration of 800ppm. They said that the concentration is the key, but I don't quite understand that.
I know this: I have run the FWIII on many spas, and the thing puts out enough ozone that I wouldn't want more. At least not without some sort of offgassing vessel, or at the very least a longer contact chamber.
8-)
Very interesting Chas. I wonder how the ozone output for the FWIII compares to the Del Platinum ozonator? I'm surprised that Del doesn't release a unit comparable to the FWIII under their brand name if it is superior. Perhaps Hotspring has intellectual property on the FWIII ozonator?
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It's to my understanding that the little bubbles are filled with ozone and if you don't have a tub with an ozonator but you do have a circ pump, the water just comes out like the end of a hose(no bubbles).
Fish, try sticking your nose right above where the little bubbles break surface and see if there's a sweet smell.(kinda like fresh cut watermelon)
The above quote is exactly correct WHY NOT....Take it from someone who didn't even know they had an ozonator until it started working magically one day, you can smell the difference! For 3 months I just felt the hot water circulating up thru the floor drain, then one day I had bubbles and odor. Also, I sure don't need to get near the bubbles to smell it...as soon as I lift the cover it's there...very strong odor!
Mlg, Vermonter brought this to my attention. :D My understanding was wrong. :-[
First, bubbles alone do not necessarily mean you are producing ozone (see my third paragraph here). The bubbles are, indeed, only the result of the venturi action of the Mazzei injector. I have totally removed my ozonator and still have the same number of bubbles as with it in place.
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True that - about the bubbles not always being ozone. I hate to admit to this - but I have already posted it before so here goes:
I get a new tub almost every year. I had a Grandee several years ago and I had the delivery crew put in the injector for an ozone system before we filled it and started it. But for some reason we did not put in the ozone generator. I don't even know why we didn't - perhaps we brought the wrong one or didn't bring one at all.
Anyway, I didn't know they had not put it in place - and once we started the tub there were bubbles. But they were just air.
I ran this tub for close to a year and I knew it needed a bit more chlorine than I was used to, but I didn't really notice anything amiss.
When we opened it up to pull the power and go deliver it to a new onwer, I noticed there was no ozone generator. Wow - I'm supposed to notice all these things. The tub's new owner got a brand new ozone on a demo tub, and I got to be embarrassed.
So yes, the bubbles can be plain air. Often, the check valve or other tubing can fail and disconnect the ozone generator from the injector, and you will have only air bubbles going into the tub.
So learn to sniff for O3 -
8-)
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I was wondering if anyone knows how an ozonator works. Is there a solid material that reacts with the impurities in the water?
Bluesman 8-)
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I lifted this from the Del site:
* Ozone is "active oxygen", nature's special molecule (an ozone molecule consists of three oxygen atoms).
* Ozone is created in nature by the combination of oxygen in the air and ultraviolet rays or by the electrical discharge during a lightning storm.
* Ozone is a natural purifier (meaning no harmful chemical by-products are created during purification)
* Ozone has a clean, fresh scent noticed after a rainstorm.
* Ozone is the most powerful oxidizer that can be safely used in a swimming pool or spa.
* Ozone is the alternative water purifier to traditional pool/spa chemicals such as chlorine and bromine.
Want to see how ozone is made? http://www.delozone.com/media/how_ozone_is_made_CD.mpg
for Corona Discharge Ozone animation! ( 1.5 MB Mpeg)
NOTE - I could not get the video to play.
Thanks to www.DelZone.com
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I lifted this from the Del site:
* Ozone is "active oxygen", nature's special molecule (an ozone molecule consists of three oxygen atoms).
* Ozone is created in nature by the combination of oxygen in the air and ultraviolet rays or by the electrical discharge during a lightning storm.
* Ozone is a natural purifier (meaning no harmful chemical by-products are created during purification)
* Ozone has a clean, fresh scent noticed after a rainstorm.
* Ozone is the most powerful oxidizer that can be safely used in a swimming pool or spa.
* Ozone is the alternative water purifier to traditional pool/spa chemicals such as chlorine and bromine.
Want to see how ozone is made? http://www.delozone.com/media/how_ozone_is_made_CD.mpg
for Corona Discharge Ozone animation! ( 1.5 MB Mpeg)
NOTE - I could not get the video to play.
Thanks to www.DelZone.com
Hey Chas thanks for the info. :)
Bluesman 8-)
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"Bump"
Hi Vermonter,
How goes your ozonator quest?
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"Bump"
Hi Vermonter,
How goes your ozonator quest?
Hi pisces,
I'm still considering what I really want to do.
My current thinking (and, knowing me, I expect this will be the route I go...), I am leaning to the Microzone 300. It is adjustable and, at maximum output, seems to tie the JED with the highest g/hour rating (0.3 grams). One downside is the price - it seems to be at $340 although I haven't checked around much. Others, including the JED are available at about half the cost.
My reason for wanting the adjustable one would be to enable me to do some testing on my tub - using something with a higher output than the HS FWIII unit that I have already collected some data on. The testing would likely wait until warmer weather but would incorporate my starting with a bacteria-free tub and then adding high concentrations of a bacteria species commonly used for challenge studies (either E. coli, Klebsiella or Pseudomonas or perhaps a cocktail) and perhaps a virus (actually a bacteriophage such as MS2).
I would add tens or hundreds of billions or the organism so as to get the concentration per millilter in the 100,000 to 1,000,000 range. I would then use only ozone and pull samples after several hours through several days and see what happens to the counts (I would also collect the initial sample to give me the starting concentration). I would probably start at the highest output figuring that if that didn't work I wouldn't need to try the lower outputs. If, however, there was significant log kill, then I could repeat the test using lower outputs.
Chas has communicated with me about some Del units and as well as FW III units. They all have lower outputs than the Microzone or JED but the claim for the gas concentration (not output) is higher than some I've seen and this could affect the efficacy. So, even though I had already tested a FWIII, I might try to test a Del or FWIII again.
However the results turn out, it pretty much would only satisfy my interest in my own tub and not be translatable to anyone else's. If ozone doesn't work at all, then that would, in my opinion, be pretty representative. However, if one type or setting works in my tub, with an "N" of "1" I certainly couldn't make statements about ozone working for anyone else given the differences in water matrices, use, contaminants, contact chambers, etc.
So, I really need to decide if my own curiosity is enough to warrant a fair bit of time and expense for the actual testing. Plus, if the ozone doesn't work I'd have a tub that I would need to carefully disinfect, drain, refill, etc. And, it's January in Vermont and finally starting to feel like winter normally does!
Vermonter
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Chas - a question (or any HS rep / dealer):
Do you know the model number of the Mazzei injector that comes with the FWIII system for a 2001 Grandee? Also, for the FWIII unit, do you know what the SCFH rating is?
Thanks,
Vermonter
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It's the black one.
Sorry, I don't know the numbers - but I'll try to give them a call tomorrow if I get a chance.
8-)
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Chas (or any HS rep/dealer):
I'd be interested in the model number of the Mazzei injector that comes with the FWIII units as well. I imagine it's the same one used on the Tiger River line also. The problem with reading the number off a HS unit is that Mazzei seems to make a unit just for Watkins with a unique number that doesn't appear to directly relate to the standard Mazzei numbers.
Thanks,
Pisces
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I guess you would have to contact them directly, sorry. I have one sitting here on my desk, and it just says,
"Model WMC-2"
8-)