Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: cbee on August 14, 2006, 01:43:29 pm
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Hi. I recently purchased a Solana SX which will be arriving next Saturday. Yeah!
I am confused about how to use the Nature 2. I have health issues therefore I want to use as little chemicals as possible. I plan to shower before soaking and I am the primary user. My 14 year old will probably use the spa but I'll tell him to shower first too.
Can someone share with me how can I use this system with as little chemicals as possible? I do know I have to use a little chlorine.
Thanks so much.
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Hi. I recently purchased a Solana SX which will be arriving next Saturday. Yeah!
I am confused about how to use the Nature 2. I have health issues therefore I want to use as little chemicals as possible. I plan to shower before soaking and I am the primary user. My 14 year old will probably use the spa but I'll tell him to shower first too.
Can someone share with me how can I use this system with as little chemicals as possible? I do know I have to use a little chlorine.
Thanks so much.
Everyone wants to use as little chemicals as possible so we all understand that but what you don't want to do is cause problems becuse you're avoiding use of what is really needed. There are many ways to go about this but I persoanlly would advice a very simple yet very effective appraoch. AFTER each use, add 1 tsp of chlorine per person and run the pumps for 5 minutes or so. Once per week shock the spa with MPS (2 to 3 TBS per 250 gallons) with the cover open for 10 minutes or so. That should do the trick. If it ever gets a little cloudy you can hit it harder with a little chlorine. The good news is the chlorine will sanitize but will also offgass very quickly so while you're using it after each use, you won't have much/any chlorine residual the next time you go in. If your spa gets no use for awhile (maybe 5 days) go out and give it a little chlorine boost as well.
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I use a similar routine but shock with dichlor also. I use 3 tbls spoon for a 485 tub and usually shock every other week unless there is a lot of use. I've found that the MPS irritates my skin.
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Hi. I recently purchased a Solana SX which will be arriving next Saturday. Yeah!
I am confused about how to use the Nature 2. I have health issues therefore I want to use as little chemicals as possible. I plan to shower before soaking and I am the primary user. My 14 year old will probably use the spa but I'll tell him to shower first too.
Can someone share with me how can I use this system with as little chemicals as possible? I do know I have to use a little chlorine.
Thanks so much.
Everyone wants to use as little chemicals as possible so we all understand that but what you don't want to do is cause problems becuse you're avoiding use of what is really needed. There are many ways to go about this but I persoanlly would advice a very simple yet very effective appraoch. AFTER each use, add 1 tsp of chlorine per person and run the pumps for 5 minutes or so. Once per week shock the spa with MPS (2 to 3 TBS per 250 gallons) with the cover open for 10 minutes or so. That should do the trick. If it ever gets a little cloudy you can hit it harder with a little chlorine. The good news is the chlorine will sanitize but will also offgass very quickly so while you're using it after each use, you won't have much/any chlorine residual the next time you go in. If your spa gets no use for awhile (maybe 5 days) go out and give it a little chlorine boost as well.
And this is different than a routine that someone without N2 would use?
The above is basicaly what I do, but I don't use a $30 N2 stick.
The offical "N2" program calls for you to keep your dichlor at .5 ppm.
Is anyone using N2 and following thier routine to the letter and having acceptable results?
:P
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I am using the Vermonter method, and I have N2. I have only had the spa for 2 months or so and I have not operated it without. I like what I have going now with respect to clarity and feel of the water, so I am sticking with it for now.
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For the best advice on water chemistry for your spa go to www.rhtubs.com and look for the Vermonter's water treatment program in the FAQs. This will outline a very effective program that minimizes the chemicals while providing safe water. With respect to Nature 2, it is definitely an effective way to minimize the amount of dichlor that would be needed for a given level of bacteria. It does this by dissolving silver ions in the water, which then weaken the cell walls of the bacteria. This facilitates the entry of the chlorine into the cells, thus killing them faster thus, with the need for less dichlor. Another improvement can be found by using ozone.
Both N2 and an ozonator offer subtle improvements, and reduce dichlor use somewhat. Exaggerated claims for them are not credible, but they do help.
Regards,
Bill
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I am using the Vermonter method, and I have N2. I have only had the spa for 2 months or so and I have not operated it without. I like what I have going now with respect to clarity and feel of the water, so I am sticking with it for now.
Why? Do you think your water feels better than hot tub water without N2? No offense, but do you have anything to compare it to?
I'm sorry, but I think N2 is a rip off.
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And this is different than a routine that someone without N2 would use?
The above is basicaly what I do, but I don't use a $30 N2 stick.
The offical "N2" program calls for you to keep your dichlor at .5 ppm.
Is anyone using N2 and following thier routine to the letter and having acceptable results?
:P
No real difference in the routine part with the exception being that the N2 will make the chlorine a little more effective by leaving a little less work for it to do and should lessen the occurances of the occasional cloudiness. I do agree that there is not a major difference between using it and not using it but it is worth it for many.
I see you state that you think N2 is a "rip off" but I think you need to clarify that. If you don't think it is worth the extra money then that's not a compeltely off-base statement. Some are willing to pay the extra $10 a month to have the extra protection (as do I) but you won't save that equivalent amount fo $$ in less chems used so it depends on your viewpoint as to it's worthiness. If you say you think it does nothing for your water then I think that is misinformed. Many people don't use it and the're not wrong for that choice. Many others do use it and like it; that's simply their choice.
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I'm sorry, but I think N2 is a rip off.
Drewstar ... You're starting to sound like me now! We've been hanging out here together for too long! 8-)
Be careful you might turn into a techno nerd like me and prove that even ozone is a waste of money too ...
Actually I beginning to believe that the water makeup is responsible for things working or not. Bill is a Chemical Engineer, I believe, and I doubt that being an Engineer he would guess that something is or isn't working - he would want facts. For me and you it didn't work but for some maybe it does.
Of course some people taking placebos had it work the way Viagra did in other people... ;)
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I am using the Vermonter method, and I have N2. I have only had the spa for 2 months or so and I have not operated it without. I like what I have going now with respect to clarity and feel of the water, so I am sticking with it for now.
Why? Do you think your water feels better than hot tub water without N2? No offense, but do you have anything to compare it to?
I'm sorry, but I think N2 is a rip off.
Bro, why so vindictive?? simple equation. I have no experience otherwise + I like what I have now + It is $22 for 3 months in the scheme of $10,000+ for the spa = I will probably stick with it as I like what I have now.
This board is filled with people trying to use Muriatic Acid to boost Ph and other ways to save pennies at the possible expense of hundreds of dollars in damage to their investment in their spas.
If it works for you, do it. If not, you can say that you don't agree. I am not a rep. I am simply a satisfied customer.
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I'm sorry, but I think N2 is a rip off.
Bill is a Chemical Engineer, I believe, and I doubt that being an Engineer he would guess that something is or isn't working - he would want facts. For me and you it didn't work but for some maybe it does.
I'm with you, if I can't see it or touch it I have trouble accepting it as fact. That is why I'm a huge propoent of ozone and why I have a good (not great) opinon of Nature 2.
From the years I've been in the business I strongly feel Nature 2 helps though I know it's NOT a huge difference. To many they'll happily take the extra help for the $10 a month. For those who choose not to use N2 I don't try to convince them it's a make or break item (though if they say it's a ripoff I tend to respond that the term 'rip off" is not accurate). Now on ozone, I am a huge believer just based on the thousands of people's homes I've been to and dealt with their spa issues. So many times I've dealt with people who've had water issues only to have me find their ozone system was inoperable for one reason or another (bad/backward check valve, unplugged unit, pinched hose (too many times), bad injector, etc.). A good friend just got a used spa from a dealer and I finally got out his way and found they put in a new cheapo UV unit in and the check valve was backward (thus no bubbles) so I quickly gave him a good CD unit I had and he is having soooo much better luck using the same routine (I've seen that same scenario more times than I can remember). He called me 2 weeks later to talk about it as he can't believe how much clearer his water is and he hasn't changed a thing otherwise.
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The spa I got is small and I was told with a spa this size putting in the ozone ($200 more) wasn't necessary. I'm hoping that is the case and that the Nature 2 does help.
Thanks for your comments.
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cbee,
I apologize, but I am another one who's not a fan of this chemical route. Nature 2 requires you to add a certain amount of MPS (potassium peroxymonosulfate - which is a non-chlorine shock) every time Before you use your tub, as well as use Dichlor (Chlorine) at startup and once in a while for clarity. The Silver Ions are not even activated without adding the MPS. So, it's not a solution to adding as little chemicals as possible. I agree with spatech tuo's Chlorine route. Chlorine burns off easy and only takes 1 tsp. per person when you get out, and a little shock once every week or two. However, if you are still wanting to do N2, make sure you're adding the MPS, or the stick wont even be working. Go to www.nature2.com for the directions if you'd like. Best of luck withy our new Spa!
-SpaGirlAZ
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I'm sorry, but I think N2 is a rip off.
Bill is a Chemical Engineer, I believe, and I doubt that being an Engineer he would guess that something is or isn't working - he would want facts. For me and you it didn't work but for some maybe it does.
I'm with you, if I can't see it or touch it I have trouble accepting it as fact. That is why I'm a huge propoent of ozone and why I have a good (not great) opinon of Nature 2.
From the years I've been in the business I strongly feel Nature 2 helps though I know it's NOT a huge difference. To many they'll happily take the extra help for the $10 a month. For those who choose not to use N2 I don't try to convince them it's a make or break item (though if they say it's a ripoff I tend to respond that the term 'rip off" is not accurate). Now on ozone, I am a huge believer just based on the thousands of people's homes I've been to and dealt with their spa issues. So many times I've dealt with people who've had water issues only to have me find their ozone system was inoperable for one reason or another (bad/backward check valve, unplugged unit, pinched hose (too many times), bad injector, etc.). A good friend just got a used spa from a dealer and I finally got out his way and found they put in a new cheapo UV unit in and the check valve was backward (thus no bubbles) so I quickly gave him a good CD unit I had and he is having soooo much better luck using the same routine (I've seen that same scenario more times than I can remember). He called me 2 weeks later to talk about it as he can't believe how much clearer his water is and he hasn't changed a thing otherwise.
I need hard proof myself.
Now this might be the difference when I did my ozonator test - I have a UV type (I believe a Del) and maybe that's the difference in water clarity but I don't know. I used the same amount of dichlor as I had used previously (1 teaspoon per person) and I didn't see any difference. Stuart suggested to me to only add 1/2 teaspoon because of the ozone and it didn't keep the tub clear for me.
I did put in N2 but my water still needed the routine that I use (dichlor every other day) to keep the water clear. I had my ozonator on for 8 hours a day at 12 hout intervals and yet without the dichlor, it didn't do anything IMO.
Owning a tub now for a year I see things in my tub and go HUH? I had chlorine lock that was persistant and it seems that this is very uncommon. So I think it's really the makeup of the source water that determines how the water will behave at that particular fill.
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Now this might be the difference when I did my ozonator test - I have a UV type (I believe a Del) and maybe that's the difference in water clarity but I don't know.
I don't think most of the cheap-o UV types add enough to make it worth it but a good cd type will add a lot more ozone and you will be sold on it IMO.
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I appologize if my post was a bit off. I can see how my choice of words was poor. Sorry guys.
I have yet to hear from anyone who is using N2 per the manufactuers instructions. Most folks I've come across here follow a method along the lines of Vermonters. I do to. Given that, I don't see the benifit of N2.
Now, I hear you all when you say "I think it helps", but come on. The product is touted as having you use less chemicals. None of you are.
As discussed in previous threads, after the first water change out, the N2 stick is virtually useless and needs to be replaced. It's good for 3 months OR a water change out, which ever comes first. The only benifit is anecdotal, and along the lines of "my water is fresher and clearer". ::)
Now I cannot deny the many folks here who report it works for them. But no one has been able to quantify that. If the N2 stick is working for you, there is more going on than what we discussed, or what salesfolks are telling us, or what the manufactuer reports. Personaly, I think it's all baloney.
I've been told by sales folks in the industry, N2 has a 100% markup (or profit if you will). I can see why it is pushed so much.
Folks using it should heed Chaz's warning to ensure you remove the old cartridge every 3 months. If the cartridge breaks open, the ceramic beads will destroy your pump.
So, once again, I appologize for being "gruff". But I did want to state my views on this product and how I understand them, and maybe encourage some new users to take a good hard look at what is really going on.
By all means, if they can quantify the results and benifits of N2. I sincerely would like to hear so. I've been mulling this issue for over a year, and would love to come to a tanagable conclusion.
Educate me.
:)
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Maybe this will help....
Dealers; Do you use N2 in the display tubs on the floor?
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The offical "N2" program calls for you to keep your dichlor at .5 ppm.
Is anyone using N2 and following thier routine to the letter and having acceptable results?
:P
I use SunPurity, which is the Version of N2 for Sundance Spas. It fits in the brominator gate. I have been using the N2 system with a CD ozonator since March of this year when I got my spa. I follow the instructions for the N2 TO THE LETTER. N2 doesn't give an actual amount of dichlor to use or a level to keep it at other than to use 1tsp per 250 gallons during startup and when the water looks hazy. I've used a total of 4 tsp (my tub is 210 gals) since March. I've refilled the tub once since March. We use MPS daily and some extra on the weekend. We also use Spa Perfect once a week to get anything like body oil, hair products, makeup, etc. And of course Alkalinity and pH adjusting products too. We use the Nature2 test strips to measure. I keep a spreadsheet in Excel to track my alk and pH and to keep track of my chemical regimen and maintenance history.
Following this regimen, religiously, we have had no problems with water quality and no health related problems of any kind.
ETA: I'm not a dealer, but wanted to share my N2 experience anyway.
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Now this might be the difference when I did my ozonator test - I have a UV type (I believe a Del) and maybe that's the difference in water clarity but I don't know.
I don't think most of the cheap-o UV types add enough to make it worth it but a good cd type will add a lot more ozone and you will be sold on it IMO.
It has a lot less to do with the type of Ozone and more to do with the delivery...
The longer the contact in the water the more effective it will be. If your just dumping directly into the bather load then a CD ozone will do more damage than good.
Look at your cover where your ozone return jet comes out and over time you will see discoloration and deterioration on the cover from the ozone. A bubble cover can help with this and even help the ozone to be a bit more effective although probably not enough to notice.
Having put thousands of tubs on nature II systems I can tell you that I have seen a difference in water quality with and without. I personally have run N2 in every spa I have owned in the last 10 years.
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Hamster thanks for your reply.
The N2 program calls for adding 1 tablespoon of MPS before each use per 250 gallons. Assume you have a 400 gallon spa, that's 1.5 tablespoons each use.
Without N2, I use 1 teaspoon of Dichlor after each use. A quick check shows that Dichlor and MPS are basically the the same price per pound, retail.
I'm using less than a quarter of the amount of chemicals you are using, and soaking in a more "chemical" free environment, given that I'm adding it AFTER I get out.
Plus, I didn't purchase a $30 cartridge.
So, what's the benifit of N2?
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Nature 2 requires you to add a certain amount of MPS (potassium peroxymonosulfate - which is a non-chlorine shock) every time Before you use your tub, as well as use Dichlor (Chlorine) at startup and once in a while for clarity. The Silver Ions are not even activated without adding the MPS.
-SpaGirlAZ
I went to that website, and it also says this:
"Note:
• As an alternative to potassium monopersulfate, dichlor may be substituted:
1 teaspoon dichlor = 3 tablespoons potassium peroxymonosulfate."
As I interpret that, chlorine with each use is fine........but I'd add it after use, not before, so I wonder if that is important.
I do not personally have a strong opinion on N2. I tried the last 4 months with it, though NOT with daily MPS, and I'll try the next 4 without it.
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Nature 2 requires you to add a certain amount of MPS (potassium peroxymonosulfate - which is a non-chlorine shock) every time Before you use your tub, as well as use Dichlor (Chlorine) at startup and once in a while for clarity. The Silver Ions are not even activated without adding the MPS.
-SpaGirlAZ
I went to that website, and it also says this:
"Note:
• As an alternative to potassium monopersulfate, dichlor may be substituted:
1 teaspoon dichlor = 3 tablespoons potassium peroxymonosulfate."
As I interpret that, chlorine with each use is fine........but I'd add it after use, not before, so I wonder if that is important.
I do not personally have a strong opinion on N2. I tried the last 4 months with it, though NOT with daily MPS, and I'll try the next 4 without it.
Anne, that would be neat to hear back from you in 4 months on this subject. The only issue I see maybe the use the tub gets in the next few months, versus the amount is used in the pas t 4 mouths (I use my tub in the cold weather about 5x as much as in the warm weather). this could effect your results, but still would be very interesting in seeing and reading your experiences. :)
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I have yet to hear from anyone who is using N2 per the manufactuers instructions. Most folks I've come across here follow a method along the lines of Vermonters. I do to. Given that, I don't see the benifit of N2.
It's not a shocker that the N2 people market their product with the old "you'll use less chems" routine. They do that to placate the customers, play to their desires and sell more product! We in the industry in turn know that the customer is better off still using chlorine. It is illogical to say that since we still feel chlorine is needed and their claim of chlorine free is not not really valid that there is no benefit to the N2 cartridge. It just means they're guilty of overhyping it IMO. N2 could be more up front and say "you really won't use much less chems but your water will be cleaner and easier to maintain" but that wouldn't sell as much product. It does work but is it worth $30 every 4 months is the question IMO. That's up to each individual spa owner.
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It has a lot less to do with the type of Ozone and more to do with the delivery...
The longer the contact in the water the more effective it will be. If your just dumping directly into the bather load then a CD ozone will do more damage than good.
True, you need both a good ozone unit AND a proper mixing chamber. I wasn't discounting the need for a proper way to use the ozone produced, I was just merely discussing some of the crappy ozone units out on the market.
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... It just means they're guilty of overhyping it IMO. N2 could be more up front and say "you really won't use much less chems but your water will be cleaner and easier to maintain" but that wouldn't sell as much product. It does work but is it worth $30 every 4 months is the question IMO. That's up to each individual spa owner.
How much cleaner? What is "cleaner"? Are their reports on bacteria levels? Or is just Cleaner looking? And if so, do they have studies or reports that show this? Water opacity is easy to measure in a lab.
Easier to maintian? How? I don't see any less maintence in the N2 program.
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For what it's worth, I have a handful of customers with small tubs that use N2 + O3 and shock once a week with dichlor. That's it. They have had great luck with it and barely use any chlorine.
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For what it's worth, I have a handful of customers with small tubs that use N2 + O3 and shock once a week with dichlor. That's it. They have had great luck with it and barely use any chlorine.
I bet they'd have the same results if they just used the 03 and dropped the N2. ;)
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... It just means they're guilty of overhyping it IMO. N2 could be more up front and say "you really won't use much less chems but your water will be cleaner and easier to maintain" but that wouldn't sell as much product. It does work but is it worth $30 every 4 months is the question IMO. That's up to each individual spa owner.
How much cleaner? What is "cleaner"? Are their reports on bacteria levels? Or is just Cleaner looking? And if so, do they have studies or reports that show this? Water opacity is easy to measure in a lab.
Easier to maintian? How? I don't see any less maintence in the N2 program.
C'mon, you know I can't quantify that but that fact doesn't invalidate it no matter how much you want to push the old "you can't prove it" point. I can't measure a lot of things that I feel are true from my experiences but I'll stick with my experiences.
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... It just means they're guilty of overhyping it IMO. N2 could be more up front and say "you really won't use much less chems but your water will be cleaner and easier to maintain" but that wouldn't sell as much product. It does work but is it worth $30 every 4 months is the question IMO. That's up to each individual spa owner.
How much cleaner? What is "cleaner"? Are their reports on bacteria levels? Or is just Cleaner looking? And if so, do they have studies or reports that show this? Water opacity is easy to measure in a lab.
Easier to maintian? How? I don't see any less maintence in the N2 program.
C'mon, you know I can't quantify that but that fact doesn't invalidate it no matter how much you want to push the old "you can't prove it" point. I can't measure a lot of things that I feel are true from my experiences but I'll stick with my experiences.
Ok. Then in your own words and opinion, describe "cleaner". Can you tell me how the water is "easier" to care for? I know that you can't "prove" or quantify it. but I know that the manufactuer could in a hear beat if it wanted to, and absolutely would....if it were true.
I have absolutely no problem with being proven wrong, or educated on this. In fact, that's the point of me beating this stick. Once again, I appologize if I come across as gruff, because I'm not trying to fight, and I have no beef with the vast majority of folks here, (and respect and value thier opions). :) But if I am missing somehting, I'd like to know.
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Drewstar,
The Romans used silver to sanitize their water, as have virtually every modern society since. It worked for them, but not for you? If you think it's not worth it, that is an opinion. It does work, that is a fact. I think it's hard for people to wrap their hands around because there are no "silver ion test strips" down at their dealer.
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Ok. Then in your own words and opinion, describe "cleaner".
But if I am missing somehting, I'd like to know.
Reduced frequency and/or severity of cloudy, stinky, bacteria laden water. Can you get there without it? Yes, with proper use of a sanitizer you can do just fine without it. Will the N2 stick lessen the amount of sanitizer? Yes, but NOT a great deal, it's really a supplement to the dichlor IMO. The point for me is with dichlor you're not using a feeder so it relies on you to add per use and then it dissipates so the N2 helps by continuing to sanitize until you get more dichlor in there. If there was a dichlor feeder where we could maintain a certain free chlroine reading and the N2 was proven to reduce it's need by XX.X% we could easily calculate the savings versus the cost and say, "nope, it does not equate" but we're not in that type of controlled situation.
To say you didn't see a difference I wouldn't attempt to dispute, if you didn't, you didn't. Are you missing something? Yes, I think you are, but nothing major. Your experience is a sample of one and this is a product that gives incremental relief to spa water care so I think it's normal to be somewhat skeptical of N2. This is not a new technology and it is one that is not completely embraced. The funny thing is I'll admitt that you can take it or leave it without losing out.
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This board is filled with people trying to use Muriatic Acid to boost Ph and other ways to save pennies at the possible expense of hundreds of dollars in damage to their investment in their spas.
They are gonna have a really difficult time boosting pH with muriatic acid....... 8-)
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Ok. Then in your own words and opinion, describe "cleaner".
But if I am missing somehting, I'd like to know.
Reduced frequency and/or severity of cloudy, stinky, bacteria laden water. Can you get there without it? Yes, with proper use of a sanitizer you can do just fine without it. Will the N2 stick lessen the amount of sanitizer? Yes, but NOT a great deal, it's really a supplement to the dichlor IMO. The point for me is with dichlor you're not using a feeder so it relies on you to add per use and then it dissipates so the N2 helps by continuing to sanitize until you get more dichlor in there. If there was a dichlor feeder where we could maintain a certain free chlroine reading and the N2 was proven to reduce it's need by XX.X% we could easily calculate the savings versus the cost and say, "nope, it does not equate" but we're not in that type of controlled situation.
To say you didn't see a difference I wouldn't attempt to dispute, if you didn't, you didn't. Are you missing something? Yes, I think you are, but nothing major. Your experience is a sample of one and this is a product that gives incremental relief to spa water care so I think it's normal to be somewhat skeptical of N2. This is not a new technology and it is one that is not completely embraced. The funny thing is I'll admitt that you can take it or leave it without losing out.
Thanks.
Yes. I am only a single person with my expereince.
But i can calculate the costs, as I did a few posts up. Given that MPS and Dichlor are about the same price, and I use the method as described on the N2 Site, I'll be using 4x the amount of chems I am using now, plus the cost of the catridge every water change.
IF I switch to dichlor (As they say you can ) I am using the same amount as I am now with out the n2 stick. (Plus there whole tag is No chlorine!!!). For the record, I don't have smelly stinky bacteria laden water.
So I have yet to see it reduce the amount of sanitizer. It doesn't.
Yes, I agree, I can get there without it. Absolutely. And that's just the point! IN FACT I can do exactly the same thing folks with the N2 stick are doing but without the N2 stick and have the same results. Wich, is the point of my whole little tantrum/episode. :) Why are you buying these things????? :o
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Wich, is the point of my whole little tantrum/episode.
And I agree with many of your points and have stated so. I just wish you were as open to listening as you are to speaking because there are valid points to each side of the equation.
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Drewstar,
The Romans used silver to sanitize their water, as have virtually every modern society since. It worked for them, but not for you? If you think it's not worth it, that is an opinion. It does work, that is a fact. I think it's hard for people to wrap their hands around because there are no "silver ion test strips" down at their dealer.
Silver is not a sanitzer/oxidizer.
It will weaken the bacterials cell wall which allows an oxidizer to be more effective.
Let's not take water care tips from the romans, ok? They had quite a few problems with thier lead pipes and pots. 8-)
The N2 system, as documented by the manufactuer does not reduce the amout of chemicals you use. I have not seen anything that shows me it makes water care "easier" I'm still adding the same amount of chems, at the same frequency, and testing and filtering.
I'm amazed that folks here will chase a few pennies a month in electricy and insulation, then toss the equivlent of several months total heating costs down the drain by going on the N2 program. ::)
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Wich, is the point of my whole little tantrum/episode.
And I agree with many of your points and have stated so. I just wish you were as open to listening as you are to speaking because there are valid points to each side of the equation.
I guess i am missing them. As they said in the movie "Philladlephia" Explain it to me like a 5 years old. Really. I don't get it. :)
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Wich, is the point of my whole little tantrum/episode.
And I agree with many of your points and have stated so. I just wish you were as open to listening as you are to speaking because there are valid points to each side of the equation.
I guess i am missing them. As they said in the movie "Philladlephia" Explain it to me like a 5 years old. Really. I don't get it. :)
It's difficult to hear when you have your fingers in your ears.
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Wich, is the point of my whole little tantrum/episode.
And I agree with many of your points and have stated so. I just wish you were as open to listening as you are to speaking because there are valid points to each side of the equation.
I guess i am missing them. As they said in the movie "Philladlephia" Explain it to me like a 5 years old. Really. I don't get it. :)
It's difficult to hear when you have your fingers in your ears.
Sigh. Spatech, I really appreciate your pastinece here, I do. I value your advice and opions. But I don't see what I missed.
Less Sanitzer? No. Not according to the N2 site.
your statment on dichlor strikes me as wrong, because, you're adding MPS before each soak (removing PEter, but putting Paul in his place).
Do you have an ozinator to in your tub?
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What we need need here is a water chemistry guy or a microbiologist with a lab to settle this dispute. I have seen data (but haven't got the time to search for it now) that shows bacteria levels in water that has silver ions vs. otherwise identical water without silver ions. The difference is time related. To try to explain this let me describe a hypothetical example.
Let us say that there are two identical spas at the same temperature, same pH etc. except that one has silver ions and the other does not. To start the experiment, the two spas would have a level of bacteria in them that is also identical and representative of what might be in our spas at home after a soak. Dichlor would be added to them in identical amounts to bring the free chlorine to 3 ppm appoximately 15 minutes after the addition has time to fully mix and disperse. Water samples are then taken at identical intervals and tested for bacteria. What would be expected is that the silver ions in the water result in a faster reduction in live bacteria levels and, all else being equal, less residual bacteria after things level out. Of course if the water is left untouched both volumes of water would still have a certain amount of bacteria. Without further treatment that residual bacteria level would start to grow again after a certain period of time. This phenomenon has been independently proven in carefully controlled experiments and is not really controversial.
The interpretation of this information and how it is used, however, is open for discussion. Does a faster reduction in bacteria levels imply that less chlorine is necessary to achieve an acceptable level of sanitation? Or should the faster reduction be used to achieve a lower level of bacteria in the spa water? Keep in mind that sanitizers reduce bacteria to safe levels, but sanitizers do not completely eliminate all bacteria.
For what it is worth, I prefer to use silver ion treatment to increase the safety factor against unwanted bacteria, rather than to reduce the amount of dichlor that is required. If the motive is safer water, then I think silver ion exchange systems are a very good addition to your overall water treatment program. If your motive is to enjoy the lowest overall cost for dichlor, then my guess is it would be very unlikely that using silver ion exchange would provide a net savings.
Interestingly enough my research indicated that science supports the efficacy for silver ions a lot more fully than the ozonator concept. I use both N2 and an ozonnator and find that these tools used in conjunction with the Vermonter's recommendations work extremely well. If it costs me an extra few dollars a month to ensure safety, then that is short money. After spending thousands of dollars on a new spa, it makes little sense to scrimp on the water treatment program.
Regards,
Bill
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I'm sorry, but I think N2 is a rip off.
Drewstar ... You're starting to sound like me now! We've been hanging out here together for too long! 8-)
Be careful you might turn into a techno nerd like me and prove that even ozone is a waste of money too ...
Actually I beginning to believe that the water makeup is responsible for things working or not. Bill is a Chemical Engineer, I believe, and I doubt that being an Engineer he would guess that something is or isn't working - he would want facts. For me and you it didn't work but for some maybe it does.
Of course some people taking placebos had it work the way Viagra did in other people... ;)
So I can blame you ? 8-) :)
The only thing I thik BIll missed is that yes you reduce the dichlor, but he missed they have you add MPS before every soak.
6 of one half a dozen of the other.
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Based on what I'm reading here from the pro N2 crowd is that your using N2 (and ozone) as a safety net device since it may (or can) help with the disinfection.
Although I side with drewstar, I guess having the peace of mind of having a precautionary device has it's merits - like having a lot of life insurance or a car/house alarm ... some people have/need it and some don't.
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Sigh. Spatech, I really appreciate your pastinece here, I do. I value your advice and opions. But I don't see what I missed.
Less Sanitzer? No. Not according to the N2 site.
your statment on dichlor strikes me as wrong, because, you're adding MPS before each soak (removing PEter, but putting Paul in his place).
Do you have an ozinator to in your tub?
You're arguing 2 different things here:
1) That it is not cost effective. On that one we are in agreement if you're basing this on $$. Many people factor in their belief (and mine) that it makes water care easier. There isn't a button on the calculator to factor that one in.
2) That it is not effective. I hardly think you have much testing to go on but that is your belief. I on the other hand do not have hard data to diasagree with you but I do disagree nonetheless.
BTW, I do have an ozonator.
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Based on what I'm reading here from the pro N2 crowd is that your using N2 (and ozone) as a safety net device since it may (or can) help with the disinfection.
Although I side with drewstar, I guess having the peace of mind of having a precautionary device has it's merits - like having a lot of life insurance or a car/house alarm ... some people have/need it and some don't.
Thank you for reading our posts. Your understanding just about says it all, especially when you also believe it works too (to whatever degree).
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Sigh. Spatech, I really appreciate your pastinece here, I do. I value your advice and opions. But I don't see what I missed.
Less Sanitzer? No. Not according to the N2 site.
your statment on dichlor strikes me as wrong, because, you're adding MPS before each soak (removing PEter, but putting Paul in his place).
Do you have an ozinator to in your tub?
You're arguing 2 different things here:
1) That it is not cost effective. On that one we are in agreement if you're basing this on $$. Many people factor in their belief (and mine) that it makes water care easier. There isn't a button on the calculator to factor that one in.
2) That it is not effective. I hardly think you have much testing to go on but that is your belief. I on the other hand do not have hard data to diasagree with you but I do disagree nonetheless.
BTW, I do have an ozonator.
Yes we agree it's not cost effective. In fact, I believe we agree that if you use the MPS method, you're using signiicantly more in chemicals over a dichlor method. This isn't even calculating in the cost of the N2 stick. Once you do that, your running at a deficit. I'd even toss the notion out that since it calls for so much MPS, TDS would increase quicker, and water quality suffer.
I do disagree with the "Easier" part. I failed to have seen where water care/ maittance/ routine have changed.
I do disagree with the "effective" part. Becasue we've yet to agree at what it's effective at? IT's not cost effective, and I don't see the easier part.
We agree to disagree. If I missed somtheing, I invite anyone to point it out to me.
Next topic: Religion, politics and who's wife is hotter. ;D :)
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Wow, there seems to be a lot of debate going on here. I guess I will have to try for myself. The start-up kit comes with the spa this Saturday. I'll do a trial run with the N2.
The Solana SX holds only 285 gallons and doesn't have an ozonator. I'm going to try to use the N2 according to their instructions and we'll see if I will need to use more dichlor than they instruct.
Thanks for all the input.
Be back with the results . . .
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It's good to see you on here, cbee!
Congratulations again on your spa. :)
Terminator
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Wow, there seems to be a lot of debate going on here. I guess I will have to try for myself. The start-up kit comes with the spa this Saturday. I'll do a trial run with the N2.
The Solana SX holds only 285 gallons and doesn't have an ozonator. I'm going to try to use the N2 according to their instructions and we'll see if I will need to use more dichlor than they instruct.
Thanks for all the input.
Be back with the results . . .
Yes. Please do. If I read your post correctly, you'll be adding 1 teaspoon of dichlor upon fill up. And dosing the tub before each use with 1tablesp oon of MPS before each use, and shock the tub weekly with 3 tblspoons Mps. ?
You'll be adding 1 teaspoon of dihclor if the water looks hazy or cloudy. (it would be great to document how often this is done)
Correct?
There is no ozone in the tub? Perfect.
Now since you're a new user, it may take a few months for you to stablize your water care, but we might get some good information and data over the next several months. :)
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Hi Terminator!
Thank you sooo much for all the info. I wouldn't have felt comfortable about getting my spa without you. I was talking with the marketing people at Watkins about the spa and put in a good word. You're the best.
-cbee
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Drewstar,
The Romans used silver to sanitize their water, as have virtually every modern society since. It worked for them, but not for you? If you think it's not worth it, that is an opinion. It does work, that is a fact. I think it's hard for people to wrap their hands around because there are no "silver ion test strips" down at their dealer.
Silver is not a sanitzer/oxidizer.
It will weaken the bacterials cell wall which allows an oxidizer to be more effective.
Oxidizer???? You mean like ozone? Or how about the aeration that your jets apply to the tub?
Actually, I'd like to know when an oxidizer ISN'T present at some level.
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What we need need here is a water chemistry guy or a microbiologist with a lab to settle this dispute. I have seen data (but haven't got the time to search for it now) that shows bacteria levels in water that has silver ions vs. otherwise identical water without silver ions. The difference is time related. To try to explain this let me describe a hypothetical example.
Let us say that there are two identical spas at the same temperature, same pH etc. except that one has silver ions and the other does not. To start the experiment, the two spas would have a level of bacteria in them that is also identical and representative of what might be in our spas at home after a soak. Dichlor would be added to them in identical amounts to bring the free chlorine to 3 ppm appoximately 15 minutes after the addition has time to fully mix and disperse. Water samples are then taken at identical intervals and tested for bacteria. What would be expected is that the silver ions in the water result in a faster reduction in live bacteria levels and, all else being equal, less residual bacteria after things level out. Of course if the water is left untouched both volumes of water would still have a certain amount of bacteria. Without further treatment that residual bacteria level would start to grow again after a certain period of time. This phenomenon has been independently proven in carefully controlled experiments and is not really controversial.
The interpretation of this information and how it is used, however, is open for discussion. Does a faster reduction in bacteria levels imply that less chlorine is necessary to achieve an acceptable level of sanitation? Or should the faster reduction be used to achieve a lower level of bacteria in the spa water? Keep in mind that sanitizers reduce bacteria to safe levels, but sanitizers do not completely eliminate all bacteria.
For what it is worth, I prefer to use silver ion treatment to increase the safety factor against unwanted bacteria, rather than to reduce the amount of dichlor that is required. If the motive is safer water, then I think silver ion exchange systems are a very good addition to your overall water treatment program. If your motive is to enjoy the lowest overall cost for dichlor, then my guess is it would be very unlikely that using silver ion exchange would provide a net savings.
Interestingly enough my research indicated that science supports the efficacy for silver ions a lot more fully than the ozonator concept. I use both N2 and an ozonnator and find that these tools used in conjunction with the Vermonter's recommendations work extremely well. If it costs me an extra few dollars a month to ensure safety, then that is short money. After spending thousands of dollars on a new spa, it makes little sense to scrimp on the water treatment program.
Regards,
Bill
Bill you say the N2 will reduce the dichlor, (something you are not comfortable with) but aren't they making it up by adding all that MPS? The manufactuer states, that you can subsitite the MPS for dichlor. My point being, you are not reducing you sanitizer with N2. I agree that silver will make it more effective. But to what degree?
Interesting point on the 03. Isn't 03 an oxidizer and will kill bacteria, as opposed to silver ions that only weaken the cell wall? If that's true, I'd be lead to belive, all things being equal, the 03 would be more effective as a sanitizer than silver ions. No?
Can you provide any indication on the amount of silver ions needed to be effective in our circumstance (400 gal hot tubs)? Do you know of any sites that I could look at to learn more?
Thanks
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Drewstar,
The Romans used silver to sanitize their water, as have virtually every modern society since. It worked for them, but not for you? If you think it's not worth it, that is an opinion. It does work, that is a fact. I think it's hard for people to wrap their hands around because there are no "silver ion test strips" down at their dealer.
Silver is not a sanitzer/oxidizer.
It will weaken the bacterials cell wall which allows an oxidizer to be more effective.
Oxidizer???? You mean like ozone? Or how about the aeration that your jets apply to the tub?
Actually, I'd like to know when an oxidizer ISN'T present at some level.
I wont say who you sound like when you compare areation via the jets and oxidizers in a sanatation regeime.
To be correct, I should say Halogens, such as chlorine that are far superior to killing bacteria than simply running the jets. with the blowers on. I was refering to oxidizers, the group of chemicals that can litteeraly burn tissue.
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Ozone typically oxidizes other things in the spa before actually getting to the bacteria. Ozone does not live long enough in the spa to make it into all the pipes.
Silver builds up and can make it's way through all the pipes.
I will try and find the articles that I have read online stating the required level for silver to be effective.
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Water Purification
Silver is employed as a bactericide and algaecide in an ever increasing number of water purification systems in hospitals, remote communities and, more recently, domestic households.
Silver ions have been used to purify drinking water and swimming pool water for generations. New research into silver compounds is providing physicians with powerful, clinically effective treatments against which bacteria cannot develop resistance.
An increasing trend is the millions of on-the-counter and under-the-counter water purifiers that are sold each year in the United States to rid drinking water of bacteria, chlorine, trihalomethanes, lead, particulates, and odor. Here silver is used to prevent the buildup of bacteria and algae in the filters. Of the billions of dollars spent yearly in the U.S. for drinking water purification systems, over half make advantageous use of the bactericidal properties of silver. [glow]New research has shown that the catalytic action of silver, in concert with oxygen, provides a powerful sanitizer, virtually eliminating the need for the use of corrosive chlorine.[/glow]
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Drewstar,
"Bill you say the N2 will reduce the dichlor, (something you are not comfortable with) but aren't they making it up by adding all that MPS? The manufactuer states, that you can subsitite the MPS for dichlor. My point being, you are not reducing you sanitizer with N2. I agree that silver will make it more effective. But to what degree?"
First of all, although MPS is no doubt OK to use once in a while, I don't use it very often (I still have over half of the first 16 oz. bottle bought 2 or more years ago). I shock with dichlor as per the Vermonter's recommendations. You are right that I am not reducing my use of sanitizer. The degree of difference would be measurable in a lab and the measure would be residual bacteria after X amount of time. In practical terms I know that using silver ions is a material aid in eradicating bacteria. As such it offers added peace of mind.
"Interesting point on the 03. Isn't 03 an oxidizer and will kill bacteria, as opposed to silver ions that only weaken the cell wall? If that's true, I'd be lead to belive, all things being equal, the 03 would be more effective as a sanitizer than silver ions. No?"
Ozone is the most powerful sanitizer there is. The problem is getting the ozone into contact with the bugs. It is not possible to generate large quantities of ozone because the stuff is not good for the environment and is, therefore, carefully regulated by Big Brother. It is not easy to get the ozone to dissolve in water. Once dissolved into the water, ozone does not last more than a short few minutes. These are limitations of the apparatus known as an ozonator, not of ozone itself. My comment was meant to convey that the effectiveness of ozonators is questioned for these reasons. With respect to silver ions, think of them as a calalyst that makes the sanitizer work faster and more effectively.
"Can you provide any indication on the amount of silver ions needed to be effective in our circumstance (400 gal hot tubs)? Do you know of any sites that I could look at to learn more?"
Well it has been a while, but it seems to me that Zodiac (the manufacturer of N2) has information available either on their website or in their literature that provides typical equilibrium values established upon initiation of their N2 cartridge with a new water fill. Perhaps, too, it would be well to mention that when you drain the tub, the cartridge must be replaced. Zodiac is a good company and I believe they would provide this information if you contacted them.
Finally for the record, I use both an ozonator and N2 in conjunction with the Vermonter's chemical regime. I also change my water about every 60 days. This might be overkill, but it is my tub and my money. I don't want to risk a health hazard when the cost to do this is only a pitance. Don't we live in a wonderful country?
Regards,
Bill
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Water Purification
Silver is employed as a bactericide and algaecide in an ever increasing number of water purification systems in hospitals, remote communities and, more recently, domestic households.
Silver ions have been used to purify drinking water and swimming pool water for generations. New research into silver compounds is providing physicians with powerful, clinically effective treatments against which bacteria cannot develop resistance.
An increasing trend is the millions of on-the-counter and under-the-counter water purifiers that are sold each year in the United States to rid drinking water of bacteria, chlorine, trihalomethanes, lead, particulates, and odor. Here silver is used to prevent the buildup of bacteria and algae in the filters. Of the billions of dollars spent yearly in the U.S. for drinking water purification systems, over half make advantageous use of the bactericidal properties of silver. [glow]New research has shown that the catalytic action of silver, in concert with oxygen, provides a powerful sanitizer, virtually eliminating the need for the use of corrosive chlorine.[/glow]
Hymbaw and others,
I don't mean to say anything because I have no opinion on N2 whatso-ever. However your quote surely comes from a silver ion maker. I sure if we wanted to we could find manufactuers of (insert product here) claiming absolutly insane things also. Not saying that N2 's claims are wrong.
I have to agree with Vinny when someone can prove it I will buy it.
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Drewstar,
First of all, although MPS is no doubt OK to use once in a while, I don't use it very often (I still have over half of the first 16 oz. bottle bought 2 or more years ago). I shock with dichlor as per the Vermonter's recommendations. You are right that I am not reducing my use of sanitizer. The degree of difference would be measurable in a lab and the measure would be residual bacteria after X amount of time. In practical terms I know that using silver ions is a material aid in eradicating bacteria. As such it offers added peace of mind.
Ozone is the most powerful sanitizer there is. The problem is getting the ozone into contact with the bugs. It is not possible to generate large quantities of ozone because the stuff is not good for the environment and is, therefore, carefully regulated by Big Brother. It is not easy to get the ozone to dissolve in water. Once dissolved into the water, ozone does not last more than a short few minutes. These are limitations of the apparatus known as an ozonator, not of ozone itself. My comment was meant to convey that the effectiveness of ozonators is questioned for these reasons. With respect to silver ions, think of them as a calalyst that makes the sanitizer work faster and more effectively.
Finally for the record, I use both an ozonator and N2 in conjunction with the Vermonter's chemical regime. I also change my water about every 60 days. This might be overkill, but it is my tub and my money. I don't want to risk a health hazard when the cost to do this is only a pitance. Don't we live in a wonderful country?
Regards,
Bill
Well said Bill.
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Hymbaw and others,
However your quote surely comes from a silver ion maker. I sure if we wanted to we could find manufactuers of (insert product here) claiming absolutly insane things also. Not saying that N2 's claims are wrong.
Not so surely
http://www.silverinstitute.org/uses.php
Hippocrates is of course a major shareholder in Zodiac(the mfgs. of Nature2) so he can't be trusted.
"Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, wrote that silver had beneficial healing and anti-disease properties, and the Phoenicians used to store water, wine, and vinegar in silver bottles to prevent spoiling. In the early 1900s people would put silver dollars in milk bottles to prolong the milk's freshness. Silver compounds were used successfully to prevent infection in World War I before the advent of antibiotics." - Wikipedia
[glow]Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence[/glow]. - John Adams
"claiming absolutly insane things also. Not saying that N2 's claims are wrong."
Not wrong, just insane? :-?
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First off - sales crap is just that - [size=20]CRAP[/size]. The silver institue seems like a commercial entity for the good of the silver industry, just like spasearch.org
Silver may or does work depending on its amount - JUST LIKE CHLORINE. Put 0.05 PPM chlorine into a tub and it won't work! Yes it's chlorine but not enough.
How much silver does N2 put in a 100, 400 or 500 gallon tub? Give me unbiased test data.
To state that anything can or does work without REAL DATA is nonsense. I understand that people want to use it as a extra precaution and I can and do agree if this is why you use it. There are people who will swear that it works miracles and you don't need chlorine.
I stated my case about ozone the same way - It didn't do anything. Stuart's and Spatech's comments lead me to believe that maybe my pump speed is too high for the amount and length of tubing that's in my spa. I will say that when my ozonator goes I may replace it with a CD unit to see if there is a difference. I'll add 20 feet of tubing along with it and I will test it out again ... maybe.
I think the whole problem for those of us that didn't see an improvement is why spend $30.00 for something that didn't work and an extra bottle of dichlor for $30.00 will last much longer than 3 months.
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Anne, that would be neat to hear back from you in 4 months on this subject. The only issue I see maybe the use the tub gets in the next few months, versus the amount is used in the pas t 4 mouths (I use my tub in the cold weather about 5x as much as in the warm weather). this could effect your results, but still would be very interesting in seeing and reading your experiences. :)
It wont be super scientific, but I will let ya all in on whatever my perceptions are. And given that I'm TOTALLY objective and trained to be clinically observant and precise, my word will be the final one. ;D :-* ;D
Seriously, though, I will be back. I also just emailed some questions to the N@ company, and I'll let ya know what they say........
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Wow, I sure wish Vermonter would come back here for a few hours and settle this debate. I asked him for his opinion regarding the combination of dichlor, ozone and N2. I sure hope he responds some day. I personally use all three but would love to see some hard data to backup the theory.
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I use both N2 and an ozonnator and find that these tools used in conjunction with the Vermonter's recommendations work extremely well. If it costs me an extra few dollars a month to ensure safety, then that is short money. After spending thousands of dollars on a new spa, it makes little sense to scrimp on the water treatment program.
Hi Bill,
I hate to think of the number of posts I made on this at the rhtubs.com board...
Although you didn't really pose the following "questions", I thought I'd respond in the form of questions and answers.
1) What is the antimicrobial (sanitizer / disinfectant / etc.) agent in Nature2?
For the Spa version of Nature2, it is the silver ion component. I had numerous talks with N2 folks in the past and they claim that it is designed to contribute a concentration of approximately 0.06 mg/L (milligrams per liter; parts per million) of silver ions to the tub water. They claim it is somewhat self-limiting -in other words, due to the way it interacts with other tub / N2 constituents, it doesn't continue to buildup its concentration.
I tested the silver ion concentration in my tub a couple of times in the past three years and the level, both times, was in the 0.05 to 0.10 mf/L range.
2) Are silver ions effective as a sanitizer (killing most) or disintectant (killing all) in hot tubs?
In my opinion, the key consideration here is that effectiveness of silver ions in hot tubs isn't the same as silver ions in, say, drinking water. In drinking water, and if the ions remain in the dissolved state vs. being combined with other inorganic or even organic species in water, silver (at levels of about 0.05 to 0.10 mg/L) can be quite effective against many types of bacteria, but not all types. It is less effective against viruses. I base these statements not only upon published studies but also on well over 100 challenge studies of water in my own lab in which I had silver ions (or a combination of silver and other components) in water and then "challenged" the water with various types of bacteria, viruses, etc. Given time - not seconds as with chorine and perhaps not even minutes or hours, silver can be effective in "killing" many bacteria. However, contact time, water qualtiy, the dissolved state of the ions and other factors are all important and silver ions are not effective in all water types and hot tubs aren't drinking water.
In addition, there is not an inexpensive, convenient and reliable method for measuring silver in your tub - if levels you think are present aren't present...you'll be in trouble. So, I do not support use of silver ions as your primary sanitizer or as a bactericidal agent (one that "kills"). They simply are too slow and your ability to KNOW that you have sufficient silver ion concentrations makes it unreliable.
I do think silver ions are effective in hot tubs as a bateriostatic agent - something that inhibits the growth and / or reproduction of bacteria. Coupled with a primary sanitizer, such as chlorine, the chlorine functions as the bateriocidal agent and gets rid of all microbes (at least bacteria and viruses, when used properly) then having the target 0.06 mg/L of silver ions is enough to act as the bacteriostatic agent to keep your tub clean during extended non-use periods if you don't have a chance to dose your tub with chlorine.
3) Are silver ions a type of oxidizer?
No. So if you were to try to rely on silver ion (don't!) alone, you would still have to use some oxidizer (e.g. chlorine or MPS) to break down the wastes in your tub.
4) Can use of silver ions reduce your use of chlorine?
In my opinion, no. Given a proper dichlor regimen, you should be able to normally use your tub with little or no free chlorine being present - certainly at levels below those present in essentially all public water systems in which you shower or bathe in regularly. Given a proper pH and proper use of chlorine you will be ensured of a pathogen free (bacteria and viruses) tub - the cost for chlorine is next to nothing; why would you want to take a chance? I do think it can eliminate the need for treating your tub with chlorine daily - if the tub isn't being used.
5) So, if you can't reduce chlorine why use silver ions (N2)?
In my experience, confirmed by hundreds of bacterial tests on my tub, a combination of Nature2, chlorine and ozone all give an extremely maintainence-free tub and a microbiologically safe tub. You can get that with chlorine alone - but in my own situation, I rely on the chlorine to "clean up" the tub and then the silver (I don't think ozone does anything - as posted before - but I have it, so I'm including it as part of my tub's operation situation) to allow me to go for extended periods without having to add chlorine (assuming there is no use of the tub).
Perhaps subject for another post, but there are numerous studies - my own as well as other research - that show there is a synergisitic effect (i.e. the interaction of two or more sanitizers function better together (combined effect) than the sum of the effects of each individual component by itself) of chlorine and silver.
Do you really need N2? My opinion - no, but, it gives that secondary sanitizing function and it gives me peace of mind.
One subjective statement about N2 - when I use N2 my water "feels" slippery and softer than without. I don't know why - perhaps it is the zinc ions that N2 also contributes.
Best,
Vermonter
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Vermonter,
Thanks for taking time to provide this very useful analysis. Although I am a CE, my field is dust explosions, about as far removed from water chemistry as you can get and still be in the chemistry discipline. BTW, where are you from in Vermont? My wife is from Colebrook, NH and we still own the old family homestead there. In fact I think she is planning on going up for the weekend.
It should be obvious that your efforts on these websites have made life much easier and safer for a lot of people, me included. Thank you for doing your good deeds.
Regards,
Bill
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Thanks Guys.
Vermonter, I appreciate your posts. It does address much of what I've been tyring to put my finger on.
Does silver ions enhance a sanitzes effectivenss? Yes.
How much? eh...we all agree that despite what the seller of this product tells us, you still need more chlorine. So, although there maybe a slightbenifit to the product, N2's claims are misleading. And that is the crux of my rant. Statements by the manufacter are not accurate, and folks are lining thier pocket under the impression it's doing something signiificant, while reducing chemicals. IT's not.
Here is the statement from the N2 webpage http://www.nature2.com/benefits.asp
It feels better.
* Cuts chlorine use to just 0.5ppm
* Reduces potential for stinging eyes and skin irritation
* Reduced potential for unpleasant odors
* Once you swim in a Nature2 pool, you'll never want to swim in a pool without it!
* Stable water, even in hot weather and heavily used pools
* Will not damage your pool equipment
* Compatible with other pool maintenance products
It works better.
* Patented mineral process destroys bacteria and algae
* Saves time & money
* No electricity, no moving parts.
* It's powered by water flow
* Reduces work & chemical volume
I thought we put to rest the issue of silver ions as being able to "Destroy" bacteria. It weakens thier cell wall. But destroys? No.
Does it save time and money? No. Not when compared to other popular sanitaton methods. In fact, If I were to switch from vermonters method to the N2 program. My costs would be 4x what i am spending today. It's program does not save any time either when compared to other regeiments.
Does it reduce cehmcial volume ? No. Absolutely not.
Will it damage my equipment? It can.
Moving on to the Spa product page http://www.nature2.com/spas.asp
They tell us:
Spa CartridgeThe Natural Alternative to Chlorine
(and Bromine too!)
Lasts four months
Makes spas easy to manage, halogen-free
Improves performance of ozone-equipped spas
Assures an odor-free spa
Significantly improves look & feel of water
Simplifies water balance — it's unaffected by heat
9 out of 10 spa users prefer Nature2 over their old method
Specifications:
Capacity: for spas up to 1,000 gallons
Run time: minimum 4 hours daily
Flow rate: works with all spa flow rates
Installation: Drops into the core of most spa filters, works with suction-side and pressure-side filters
Hooey. There is no doubt that silver ions can enhance a santizers effectivenss, but to simply belive what the N2 folks are telling you is foolish, misleading and deceptive. My money will not be going into thier pockets.
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"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." -William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act III, Scene ii.
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You're right Bill. I protest too much and must be hiding somehting. I confess. I work for CopperKing Ion packs.
My posts were all lies. The N2 system will Save you money. It's will reduce your maitience! T he Ions in the water will KILL bacteria and you'll be using Less chemicals. Dichlor? Bah. A thing of the past! My water will look significantly better!!! You'd be a fool not to get on their program. Man, what was I thinking ?
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"claiming absolutly insane things also. Not saying that N2 's claims are wrong."
Not wrong, just insane? :-?
Hymbaw
I think my statment was misinterpreted or I didn'y convey my thoughts correctly. I did not mean to say that Zodiacs claims were insane. What I meant was that ,there are products out there that thier manufactures claim will do everything and anything. Some ideas are baldness cures, gas mileage increasers and the always popular male performance issues. The claims made are just, claims. Until the manufacturer can produce independant results (I think The Vermonter just did) the claims made by thier literature are unjustified.
I did not mean to offend N2 users or manufacturers, I was just asking for some proof.
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Vermonter,
Thanks for saying exactly what I was saying but in a much more eloquent and scientific manner.
Drewstar,
Your post combined with your earlier posts is a bit comical IMO.
"Does it save time and money? No. "
We've been argeeing all along.
"Does it reduce cehmcial volume ? No."
We've been argeeing all along.
"Will it damage my equipment? It can."
Not sure where that came from but go ahead and hang your hat on it. (Wait, where is your data, LOL?).
What we've been saying ALL along is it helps with water management and you're going to have to understand that to some people that IS worth the extra $8 a month. That is ALL we've been hanging our hat on. Not the other things you've been mentioning or the fact that the manufacturer overhypes it (wow, what a shocker). If it's not for you, congrats and take your wife out to dinner at BK once a month with your savings.
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Well spatech, if you read throug the posts, I think you'll see this all came from my opion on the product. on the 2nd page of this thread, you'll see my resposne that clearly points out my issues.
For some reason, you wanted to defend the N2 product and continue to claim I would use less chemicals. (which you dont). I asked you to somehow, someway tell how it's "Better" or "Cleaner" and you couldn't. But ok.
It's not *$ 8 month, IT's like $150 a year. but hey, what ever. ;)
Funny how folks let N2 slide on their false adverts but I guess if your selling it , it's ok.
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It's not *$ 8 month, IT's like $150 a year. but hey, what ever. ;)
No, it IS about $8 month or so the way I use it and most people that I know use it. None of us here that I've seen have been claiming we use it like the manufacturer states with MPS per use as you'll see from all my posts and those of others in this thread. I've NEVER been a believer in using MPS instead of dichlor when using N2 so the only cost difference for me and those that follow the instructions I give use is the addition of the cartridge.
All this time I've been talking about how it makes water management a little easier and you've been skeptical which is your prerogative. You either decide it's worth it or you don't. I couldn't care less about your displeasure about their marketing approach, I never backed that. I care more for how my water is and how I help others care for theirs. I'm sure some of the people I counsel on water care may chose not to spend the additional $8/month. I'm very up front with them on how it helps but is not the be all and end all. I really play up the chlroine and ozone more anyway so when i'm done they understand what I'm saying (usually).
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Spatech
Once again, you mention water care is easier? how is it easier ? above you agree I'll be using mor e chems and spending more money, but what will I be doing that's "Easier"
My rants about $$ were based on the Manufacters recomended method. (as is most of my issues). At $25 a pop for cartidges, that's $100 a year given a 3 month water change out. (hell, thats $150 for you at every two months) add in the cost of the extra MPS (if you use the manufactes method) and you're at $150 a year, and guess what? It doesn't work as the manufactuer describes. Please don't reach into my pocket for that. Thank you.
You also tell folks they'll be using slighlty less chemicals. But I see above that you now agree with me. when orignally you stated tht you tell folks they use slightly less. Which is it?
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Spatech
Once again, you mention water care is easier? how is it easier?
My rants about $$ were based on the Manufacters recomended method. (as is most of my issues). At $25 a pop for cartidges, that's $100 a year given a 3 month water change out. (hell, thats $150 for you at every two months) add in the cost of the extra MPS (if you use the manufactes method) and you're at $150 a year, and guess what? It doesn't work as the manufactuer describes.
You also tell folks they'll be using slighlty less chemicals. Please, for the last time, how am I using less chemicals?
:P
At $25 per cartridge swapped out every four months costs you $6.25 per month. N2 will help maintain in between uses. For the average tubber this means not having to add chlorine as much during off times, thus a savings in chems...how much? Probably not a lot, but a savings none the less.
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Spatech
Once again, you mention water care is easier? how is it easier?
My rants about $$ were based on the Manufacters recomended method. (as is most of my issues). At $25 a pop for cartidges, that's $100 a year given a 3 month water change out. (hell, thats $150 for you at every two months) add in the cost of the extra MPS (if you use the manufactes method) and you're at $150 a year, and guess what? It doesn't work as the manufactuer describes.
You also tell folks they'll be using slighlty less chemicals. Please, for the last time, how am I using less chemicals?
:P
Drewstar,
You obviously don't read what I'm writing. I truly think you just type a response with minimal regard to what the other person posted. Once again, I never mentioned MPS per use but always said I use chlorine the same as if there was no N2 cartridge (which again, costs about $8/month though you can show the $ amount as a yearly if you want the # to be bigger ;)).
For the last time, myself, Bill, Vermonter and othes all believe in it to wahtever degree after using it for years (time obviosly varying per person) and feel it supplements dichlor use well and helps care for the water in between doses. We've all had our experiences with it to varying degress and we're all comforatble with our opinion. Take it for what it is and if you don't believe it I certainly don't care or feel a need to try to convince you as you'd have to be open to the idea first of all. As far as less chems, as I've said it's minimal and only comes into play in that you'll have less chance of hazy water where you have to give a little more dichlor boost and that's not anything major in any way.
Whatever. Try not to continue with your rhetoric. It gets really old.
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Spatech
Once again, you mention water care is easier? how is it easier?
My rants about $$ were based on the Manufacters recomended method. (as is most of my issues). At $25 a pop for cartidges, that's $100 a year given a 3 month water change out. (hell, thats $150 for you at every two months) add in the cost of the extra MPS (if you use the manufactes method) and you're at $150 a year, and guess what? It doesn't work as the manufactuer describes.
You also tell folks they'll be using slighlty less chemicals. Please, for the last time, how am I using less chemicals?
:P
Drewstar,
You obviously don't read what I'm writing. I truly think you just type a response with minimal regard to what the other person posted. Once again, I never mentioned MPS per use but always said I use chlorine the same as if there was no N2 cartridge (which again, costs about $8/month though you can show the $ amount as a yearly if you want the # to be bigger ;)).
For the last time, myself, Bill, Vermonter and othes all believe in it to wahtever degree after using it for years (time obviosly varying per person) and feel it supplements dichlor use well and helps care for the water in between doses. We've all had our experiences with it to varying degress and we're all comforatble with our opinion. Take it for what it is and if you don't believe it I certainly don't care or feel a need to try to convince you as you'd have to be open to the idea first of all. As far as less chems, as I've said it's minimal and only comes into play in that you'll have less chance of hazy water where you have to give a little more dichlor boost and that's not anything major in any way.
Whatever. Try not to continue with your rhetoric. It gets really old.
Spatech,
Every single post you made, I have throughly read, and responded to with specific questions to statement you have made. To suggest I respond to you with "minimal regard" is not only insulting, a very poor debate tactic.
Orignaly, in several of your posts (Go ahead, go back and read them, I' ll wait. Lal la la la. Ready? Good. ) You claim the product cost $120 a year ($10 a month). I add in the extra chems (wich in yet another post you agree with me that we'll be using) and get up to the price of $150. Magically, you know claim the program will cost $8 a month and suggest I go to burger king....fine. You seem to want to argue the basics and vasilate all over the place.
So, how much does the N2 program gonna cost me? Why do you change the amounts but then make a big deal out of it?
Once again, I'll ask you, How does N2 make my water care "easier" ? If I'm doing all the same stuff that I'm doing before without N2, how is it easier? I've asked you this seveal times and you refuse to tell me. Why? Do you understand the definition of Easier?
You agree that Viking (N2) is misleading customers, but also state that if you told folks the truth, you wouldn't sell as much. Yea, let's not pay too much attention to that statment. but then again, I'm not really paying attention to your posts.
In fact, I am, and that's why I am confused.
So get off you high horse buddy, your last post was out of line, inaccurate and insulting.
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Spatech,
Every single post you made, I have throughly read, and responded to with specific questions to statement you have made. To suggest I respond to you with "minimal regard" is not only insulting, a very poor debate tactic.
Your responses seemed either circular or simply argumentatinve and always made me wonder if you really read what I'd posted. If you did, great, but we won't be able to continue because I feel I've responded too many times to the same questions. I'll try to brush up on my debate tactics so I can keep up with you. ;) I think I'll step away from this thread now.
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Spatech,
Every single post you made, I have throughly read, and responded to with specific questions to statement you have made. To suggest I respond to you with "minimal regard" is not only insulting, a very poor debate tactic.
Your responses seemed either circular or simply argumentatinve and always made me wonder if you really read what I'd posted. If you did, great, but we won't be able to continue because I feel I've responded too many times to the same questions. I'll try to brush up on my debate tactics so I can keep up with you. ;) I think I'll step away from this thread now.
Or, you could contiue to read the rest of the post and aswer the questions...
Here, I'll help you....
"Drewstar Using the N2 stick makes you water care easier because......
"This is easier than............
"The cost of the N2 is..... If I said another amount then I was mistaken, I'm sorry If that confused or mislead you"
And finally....
Base on your posts the only benifit I see is by using the N2 product I may reduce the chance of my water getting hazy, which I would correct by adding dichlor.
Is this true?
And if so, can you help me understand how much of a chance I run of my water getting cloudy if follow your mehtods, but don't purchase the N2 product and what I would do to clear it up?
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Spatech
Once again, you mention water care is easier? how is it easier?
My rants about $$ were based on the Manufacters recomended method. (as is most of my issues). At $25 a pop for cartidges, that's $100 a year given a 3 month water change out. (hell, thats $150 for you at every two months) add in the cost of the extra MPS (if you use the manufactes method) and you're at $150 a year, and guess what? It doesn't work as the manufactuer describes.
You also tell folks they'll be using slighlty less chemicals. Please, for the last time, how am I using less chemicals?
:P
At $25 per cartridge swapped out every four months costs you $6.25 per month. N2 will help maintain in between uses. For the average tubber this means not having to add chlorine as much during off times, thus a savings in chems...how much? Probably not a lot, but a savings none the less.
If yor tub has ozone, then it's not necessary. I've follow vermonters method, with the exception of not dosing on off days. The 03 pics that up, as well as weeks that I am on vacation or away. The marginal benfits I see from N2 seem even smaller if one has a 03 unit running. No?
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Hi. I recently purchased a Solana SX which will be arriving next Saturday. Yeah!
I am confused about how to use the Nature 2. I have health issues therefore I want to use as little chemicals as possible. I plan to shower before soaking and I am the primary user. My 14 year old will probably use the spa but I'll tell him to shower first too.
Can someone share with me how can I use this system with as little chemicals as possible? I do know I have to use a little chlorine.
Thanks so much.
Cbee,
Only your 4th post and look at the mess you've made ;)
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Drewstar you made an interesting post and something I think you need to know - My water won't last 2 days if I don't dose on alternate days.
You said you can go week(s) and I can't and I think this is the whole crux of the problem in this understanding - everyone's water is different. It may be H2O but the rest of the stuff in it may make water react differently (see my post on green's foam problem).
I don't use N2 and wouldn't waste my money because in MY water it didn't do anything, just like ozone didn't do anything for me but you see a difference and that is the difference I believe.
The pro N2 people are saying they see a difference in their water - either large or small. Not having their water I don't think us doubting Thomas' could believe that it really makes a difference.
This is my conclusion in seeing a number of posts on water care - my water can be different than yours which can be different than ...
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Just wondering for those of you that believe the N2 helps. I was going to try to use it per the manufacturer's instructions but now I'm afraid I'm going to have a bacteria mess in my spa!
How would you suggest I supplement it with dichlor? My spa holds 285 gallons (no ozone) and I plan on using it about 5 nights a week. I live in Los Angeles (don't know if weather makes a difference). Keep in mind I want as little chemicals as possible.
Thanks.
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cebee,
Reguardless if you use N2 or not you can't have a sanitizer free tub. The amount of MPS that needs to be used is a lot more than dichlor. If you use more chemicals to "shock" then your TDS goes up quicker. N2 and Ozone are not primary sanitizers as you can probably tell by this thread.
You are right to be concerned about the bacteria and be thankful you asked this question.
Use the N2 and put dichlor (chlorine) into the tub. Your tub is a little more than 1/2 the size of mine so 1 teaspoon may give you enough to get to 2.5 to 3 PPM. 1 teaspoon is not a lot of chemicals and you may need only need 1 or 2 tablespoons for a shock of dichlor. This is definately much less than the MPS amount that's required.
"A lot of chemicals" is something to one person and something else to others. To me the amount of chemicals that you would be adding isn't a lot and if you follow the Vermonter method then you will be soaking in close to 0 chlorine and thats a good thing!
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So should I skip the MPS and just use the dichlor??? Do I use the dichlor after each soak? Will that wear off so that I won't have too much chlorine during the next soak??? So many questions . . . so many different answers! :o
Seems like I started a big mess here! :o
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So should I skip the MPS and just use the dichlor??? Do I use the dichlor after each soak? Will that wear off so that I won't have too much chlorine during the next soak??? So many questions . . . so many different answers! :o
Seems like I started a big mess here! :o
If you stick around a while you will see that almost EVERYTHING concerning a tub is debated. Other than true documented studies (the fact you need a sanitizer for instance) all undocumented beliefs are debated about ... N2, ozone, full foam, thermopane, even dichlor and bromine.
To answer your question - NO! You shouldn't skip MPS entirely but you may want to limit its use.
My uses for MPS are when my combined chlorine is over 0.5 PPM, you need to add 10x that amount of free chlorine to shock and that will stop you from using the tub. I will use MPS and it will oxidize the organics and combined chlorine so that I can use the tub after 20 minutes. The other use that works great for me is when I get foaming (6 to 8") in the tub, I put the required amount and I can see the foam go away in a 20 minute jet cycle - it's is amazing.
Use the dichlor after each soak and add enough to get a 3 PPM reading 20 min after adding it. Your shooting for the actual # not some theoretical # - until you know that 3 PPM with 1,2 or 10 people in the tub = this # of teaspoons make sure you test. By the next night it will be close to 0 and you start all over again. BTW some or all municipalities add at least that much to their drinking water so you might be bathing in it and drinking it already. Try to remember that if you have a lot of people in the tub (a party) then you need to add more dichlor and I would add it before, during and add extra after.
It gets easier with experience!
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Drewstar you made an interesting post and something I think you need to know - My water won't last 2 days if I don't dose on alternate days.
You said you can go week(s) and I can't and I think this is the whole crux of the problem in this understanding - everyone's water is different. It may be H2O but the rest of the stuff in it may make water react differently (see my post on green's foam problem).
I don't use N2 and wouldn't waste my money because in MY water it didn't do anything, just like ozone didn't do anything for me but you see a difference and that is the difference I believe.
The pro N2 people are saying they see a difference in their water - either large or small. Not having their water I don't think us doubting Thomas' could believe that it really makes a difference.
This is my conclusion in seeing a number of posts on water care - my water can be different than yours which can be different than ...
Vinny, I agree everyone's water is a bit different . Yes, I have very good luck with my dichlor and 03 program. For the most part i follow the Vermonters guide, but I do not dose on off days, or when the tub is not in use. I have gone over a week without touching the tub and opened it up to find the tub's water crystal clear, and fresh smelling. I've had my current tub for over a year, and have left it unattended several times. The only times I had come home from vacation and had a slight problem is when people watching my house have used the tub. Even then, I can clear it in a day or two. But if I balance the water and no one touches it I can leave it for a week. Upon returning, the water looks great, smells fresh. I'll give it a dose of dichlor run the jets for 10 mintues, and I'm back in buisiness. Right now, I haven't opened or touched my tub since Sunday night. I have little doubt that it's in good shape. However to be on the "safe" side, if I don't use it tonight, I'll still hit it with a teaspoon of dichlor just to be on the safe side.
I belive my success is due the 03 system. (Which is why I was originaly so suprised to read about your experieices). Base on what others have said and posted, I do think there are significant differneces in 03 set ups. My dealer installed a Freshwater CD ozinator and I'm an told my tiger river has a contact chamber.
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So should I skip the MPS and just use the dichlor??? Do I use the dichlor after each soak? Will that wear off so that I won't have too much chlorine during the next soak??? So many questions . . . so many different answers! :o
Seems like I started a big mess here! :o
You could go either way,.MPS or dichlor. I belive Dichlor is a better sanitizer than MPS. I'd dose the tub after you get out and get the dichlor up to 5ppm and let the jets run a bit. By the next day if you want to soak agian, your chlorine levels should be very low. You will need to test the tub and double check for a bit until you get a stable regieme. Personaly, as stated in my prevuous post, I'd think the FW 03 unit would be a good investment, but if you don't have 03, you will have to keep and eye on the tub and dose it a bit more, evne with the N2 IMHO.
As we've argured here, the N2 stick really isn't going to do anything substantial, and at best enhance your dichlor so don't depend on N2 as primary sanitzier. Try it out, and see what works for you. However I would calculate the cost of adding the 03, and if you amortimize the cost over several years (let's say 3). I think you'll find the 03 system is a better choice than 3 years of N2. Anyone disagree?
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I would calculate the cost of adding the 03, and if you amortimize the cost over several years (let's say 3). I think you'll find the 03 system is a better choice than 3 years of N2. Anyone disagree?
Sorry to drag up an old contentious thread, but it was a rainy weekend here, so I went back aways to read the Vermonter posts on ozone and N2, and came across this post. I'm guessing that after 6 pages of "tastes great...less filling" :P, a lot of folks gave up. Unfortunately, it left this as the last word, and IMHO, it is wrong. What is working in Drewstar's tub doesn't seem likely to be the best choice across a wide spectrum of applications. My tub behaves just the opposite from Drewstar's. I've run both and it does much better with N2, rather than ozone, as a supplement to dichlor.
As Vermonter has stated in the series of posts on ozone, there is little in the way of scientific proof that ozone, as it is used in hot tub applications has any significant benefit in sanitation. There are lots of anecdotal testimonials from people with years of experience with spas that it helps in water care, but it appears that may be due to a slight improvement in oxidation, not sanitation. On the other hand, silver ions have a proven ability to supress bacteria growth, and weaken their cell structure, allowing chlorine to kill more efficiently/effectively. IMO, the real benefit is the cushion that a mineral stick provides for inadequate or missed doses.
I haven't given a lot of thought to the relative costs, but I would expect that after you amoritize the cost of the ozone unit and installation, factor in maintenance of the CD chip or UV bulb, the electricity to run the unit, and the potential decreased life of covers and cushions due to offgassing, the costs would approach that of buying a N2 stick every 3 or 4 months. Given Drewstar's either/or scenario, I'd put my money behind Vermonter's knowlege and experience, and go dichlor/N2, and skip the ozone. In fact that is what I do! 8-)
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*bump*
Sorry, I had to do it. There's just way to much info in this thread for it to be sitting way back in the archives. :D
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30 minutes later I'm still on page 2. My eyes and head hurt, so I'm taking a break. :P
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cbee,
I apologize, but I am another one who's not a fan of this chemical route. Nature 2 requires you to add a certain amount of MPS (potassium peroxymonosulfate - which is a non-chlorine shock) every time Before you use your tub, as well as use Dichlor (Chlorine) at startup and once in a while for clarity. The Silver Ions are not even activated without adding the MPS.-SpaGirlAZ
Quote from the Nature2 instructions from the website:
• As an alternative to potassium monopersulfate, dichlor may be substituted:
1 teaspoon dichlor = 3 tablespoons potassium peroxymonosulfate.
Nowhere do I see anything about the Silver Ions not being activated without the use of MPS. People have been using zinc and silver metals for years for spa and pool sanitizing with small amounts of chlorine being added.
I often travel 3-4 days at a time, and since started using N2 I always return home to a fresh spa.
John F
LV, NV
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Yeah, I have the book for my N2 catridge right here in front of me and it clearly states that dichlor can be substituted for mps. :D
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Oh, one more thing, being a long-time (30 yrs) resident of Las Vegas, and working in the Casino industry:
Most every casino hotel has a (very) large pool and spa, right? No casino like to spend money that doesn't have to be spent. Every casino I've visited (and I talk to their maintenance people almost daily) uses either zinc or a combo of zinc/silver in the circ stream, and they do it for 2 reasons - (1) they absolutely cannot risk the pool being unavailable because of an algae bloom or failing a daily bacterial / coliform test. (2) it saves money on chemicals. Period.
Translating this to home spa use - I used a zinc plug for 14 years (had to replace every 4 years or so) in a cheapo no-name brand of spa, and I know it kept things from growing when I was gone for a week or two on travel with no one to add chemicals.
Have a new (well, going on a half-year old now) Artesian, and just decided to try the N2 with dichlor only (no MPS). The N2 stick was free (part of the spa sale) but from what I've experienced so far I'm pretty sure I'll continue using. I'm shocking weekly, other than that I add a tsp or so of dichlor every other day with terrific results. Granted, it is only 300 gallons.
John F
LV, NV
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Have had a tub now for 9 months that has never had MPS in it. I use dichlor more or less by the Vermonter method and shock every week or two depending on use. The tub also happens to have O3 as I wanted that feature. I do not know which one is contributing what but I have never had water problems. I have been away for 2+ weeks at a time during which it got no use and no dichlor and the water remains clear. My tub does get relatively light use compared to some as it is usually 1 or 2 people several times a week at the most. Only rarely does it get a "crowd" in it and I just shock it hard afterwards and it seems to do fine.
I have to believe either the N2 or the O3 or perhaps both are contributing to the quality of the water and will continue to use both.
But I don't see any evidence that you HAVE to use MPS with N2. Going on 5 months with my second tub of water and I am planning to change the next time it is relatively warm, not because I have to, but because I feel like I should change it periodically rather than be too complacent.
I would also guess the N2 stick should be replaced periodically to keep it effective but not sure what the mandatory replacement time frame is for the product.
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I would also guess the N2 stick should be replaced periodically to keep it effective but not sure what the mandatory replacement time frame is for the product.
Every 4 months.
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Every 4 months.
Yes, I believe that is what the instructions on my N2 box says as well. But in this world of planned obsolence I wander if it can go a bit longer! One of the reasons I have pushed my current water is to see if I begin to notice a change in the maintenance requirements. So far nothing seems different yet. If I get to 6 months I will likely change it anyway but for now unless something changes or I get a conveniently warm weekend I think I might continue my experiment!
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Yes, I believe that is what the instructions on my N2 box says as well. But in this world of planned obsolence I wander if it can go a bit longer! One of the reasons I have pushed my current water is to see if I begin to notice a change in the maintenance requirements. So far nothing seems different yet. If I get to 6 months I will likely change it anyway but for now unless something changes or I get a conveniently warm weekend I think I might continue my experiment!
I am the type that wonders the same thing in cases like this which is why I always tell owners to look closely at their cartridges when they are new and look at them when they clean their filters periodically. You'll note that they have beads that are coated. As time goes by that coating disappears and eventually you end up with nothing but the substrate. I think you'll find that at 4 months they really are ready for replacement.
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I am the type that wonders the same thing in cases like this which is why I always tell owners to look closely at their cartridges when they are new and look at them when they clean their filters periodically. You'll note that they have beads that are coated. As time goes by that coating disappears and eventually you end up with nothing but the substrate. I think you'll find that at 4 months they really are ready for replacement.
t.u.o., I've noticed the coating is gone also after 4 months. Is it possible to buy the beads somewhere and roll your own?
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t.u.o., I've noticed the coating is gone also after 4 months. Is it possible to buy the beads somewhere and roll your own?
Only for medicinal purposes!
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I am the type that wonders the same thing in cases like this which is why I always tell owners to look closely at their cartridges when they are new and look at them when they clean their filters periodically. You'll note that they have beads that are coated. As time goes by that coating disappears and eventually you end up with nothing but the substrate. I think you'll find that at 4 months they really are ready for replacement.
You are probably right. I have a new cartridge ready to go so I will take a good look and see if I can tell a difference. But if it stays manageable I may still try to wait for a decent temp to make the change!
Could have done it weekend before this but decided to play golf instead!
;)
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I have seen different theories on how N2 is released into the water. Some folks state that all the silver/copper is released in the first couple of weeks, and is stable in solution -- so it stays effective until the water is changed. Others have the impression that it is released at a steady rate for 4 months, which would imply that it dissipates with use, otherwise you would have different levels of sanitizer in week 4 vs week 16. Can anyone clarify that? I decided to take advantage of mild weather to do an early water change, but wonder if there is enough N2 left to be able to reinstall the 2 month old cartridge.