Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: TimW on January 03, 2007, 04:35:43 pm
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I have had my nordic sport for about 5 years and recently had to replace the pump. I was using bacquaspa and got somewhat careless with my PH levels. I am guessing that this is what did it. However, given that bacquaspa voids my warranty, I thought that might have contributed to the problem and decided to switch chemicals. My local shop advised a Nature 2 with dichlor and shock. I have been in a losing battle with my PH over the last two months. I dump in lots of PH decreaser and it keeps bouncing up.
I have been reading this and another forum for the last couple of days and it seems as if you need a knack for chemistry and a lot of time to properly care for a personal spa. I don't want to burn out another pump and I would like to spend as little time taking care of my spa as possible, and I don't mind spending a bit more for chemicals if they are easy and work well.
On another website, a user suggested bleach as dichlor can raise the CYA too much, yet on this forum this has been disputed.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you have on how to keep spa treatment as simple as possible? I am about to drain the tub and start over.
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re: I am about to drain the tub and start over.
I do that about once a month so i dont
have to fool with it!
These people that seem proud they haven't changed their water
in 9 months or a year....lol......I don't get it!
I wouldn't be proud of that.....lol.....2EachHisOwn!
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My local shop advised a Nature 2 with dichlor and shock.
I have been reading this and another forum for the last couple of days and it seems as if you need a knack for chemistry and a lot of time to properly care for a personal spa.
1) I agree with their recommendation.
2) You don't need to be a chemist to get the hang of it. If you're cpable of making a PB&J sandwhich you should be capable of implementing a N2/Chlorine regimine for your water. There certainly may be a little trial & error and a slight learning curve to get things right at first but it's a snap eventually.
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The best advice I've taken from the forum:
* Don't overmanage the water
* Remember alk, ph, etc. is a RANGE, don't try to get an exact number
* The cheapest, easiest correction is dump, refill
I think bromine is the flat out easiest, but a dichlor method isn't a whole lot of work either. Both methods require some attention and are discussed in detail throughout the forum. I'll leave the bleach method to the experts here, it was discussed in a recent thread.
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I have had my nordic sport for about 5 years and recently had to replace the pump. I was using bacquaspa and got somewhat careless with my PH levels. I am guessing that this is what did it. However, given that bacquaspa voids my warranty, I thought that might have contributed to the problem and decided to switch chemicals. My local shop advised a Nature 2 with dichlor and shock. I have been in a losing battle with my PH over the last two months. I dump in lots of PH decreaser and it keeps bouncing up.
I have been reading this and another forum for the last couple of days and it seems as if you need a knack for chemistry and a lot of time to properly care for a personal spa. I don't want to burn out another pump and I would like to spend as little time taking care of my spa as possible, and I don't mind spending a bit more for chemicals if they are easy and work well.
On another website, a user suggested bleach as dichlor can raise the CYA too much, yet on this forum this has been disputed.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you have on how to keep spa treatment as simple as possible? I am about to drain the tub and start over.
Did you have to replace the pump because seals failed or was it electrical?
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The seals failed and rusted the ball bearings!
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First, taking care of a spa is not as easy as taking care of a pool IMO but its not too difficult.
Don't use bleach in a spa, use chlorine, specifically dichlor or lithium. We had a discusion here about this a few days ago. Do use bleach in a pool.
Keep PH at the proper range, 7.2 to 7.8, and you should be OK. If you have hard water, you need to do something about it, I don't know what that is though - someone with hard water should be able to help there.
When in doubt - dump the water and start all over again! :D
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"it seems as if you need a knack for chemistry and a lot of time to properly care for a personal spa."
Absolutey not.
Switch to a dichlor program.
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Thanks for everyone's suggestions.
A few folks have suggested a dichlor program which was exactly what the dealer recommended (although he suggested to do it with Nature 2). Although I was a bit concerned when the dealer told me to not worry about measuring the chlorine levels. He was also pretty vague on how much dichlor and oxidizing shock to use. Would you kind folks be willing to tell me exactly what you do that will make balancing the PH fairly easy, as this has been my greatest problem. If you could also include the size of your tub, that would be great.
Thanks!
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Tim, if you've used a LOT of chemicals already to get the pH into range, my thoughts are dump and refill, and get the TA in range, first...from what I recall reading here, if your TA is in range, it'll keep the pH from bouncing around. TA, then pH.....
Hope I'm not full of it, and good luck! ;) :D
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Thanks for everyone's suggestions.
A few folks have suggested a dichlor program which was exactly what the dealer recommended (although he suggested to do it with Nature 2). Although I was a bit concerned when the dealer told me to not worry about measuring the chlorine levels. He was also pretty vague on how much dichlor and oxidizing shock to use. Would you kind folks be willing to tell me exactly what you do that will make balancing the PH fairly easy, as this has been my greatest problem. If you could also include the size of your tub, that would be great.
Thanks!
To use Dichlor in a tub that was previously on a Baqua regeme, I think you wil have to do a water change first. (?)
Here's what I do. I have a 350 gallon tub with a CD ozinator running 24/7.
1) After using the spa, add aprx 1/2 teaspoons of dichlor to the water, per bather and run the jets for ten minutes. Test the water, you want to ensure your chlorine (dichlor) levels reach 5 ppm, no more. You may have to add a bit more, or a bit less, but once you figure out the correct amount for you tub, you'll be fine and wont need to constantly check your levels.
2) about once a week or every 12 soaks, shock the tub either with dichlor, or with MPS (I use the brand name "Renew" for MPS, and "Spa 56" for Dichlor) . I follow the directions on the back of the bottle fpr adding the correct amout to shock.
3) I check and adjust for PH, Alk, and CA about once a week.
That's it.
Some folks find that they need to add dichlor to the tub every few days even if they don't use it to keep the water clear. My own experience for me, is it's not necessary. YMMV. To be safe about once a week if I use the tub or not, I'll get the dichlor levels up to 5ppm. I've gone as long as 10 days with out adding anything to the tub and have been fine, other folks say to get the chlorine/dichlor levels up to 5 ppm every other day weather you use it or not. Eh. as I said YMMV.
The bottom line with dichlor is to get the chlorine levels to 5 pmm after using the tub. This is enough to sanitize the water, but since dichlor disapates quickly, in a few hours, the chlorine levels will be very low, ( 1ppm or less allowing you to soak in a tub with very little harsh chemicles.
It's that easy.
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What does a dump and refill cost you?? $15 in water and electric to warm the water back up. I have not been out of whack yet, but $15 does not buy a lot of chemicals in spa land. Plus, new water feels so darn good.
The other alternative to making soup is to get a spa dude to show up once every 2 weeks to hook you up. Then you just have to drop a teaspoon of Diclor in after every soak.
I do N2 and DiClor (1 Teaspoon after every soak), and 1 tbls or diclor and 2 tbls of renew every weekend. Nothing but smooth sailing. Dump the water when it seems to need it (I have owned since May and I have dumped once in September, may do it this weekend even though it does not really need it).
KISS is the key. Keep it simple spa-enjoyer. The less you put in, the better!!
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...Here's what I do. I have a 350 gallon tub with a CD ozinator running 24/7.
1) After using the spa, add aprx 1/2 teaspoons of dichlor to the water, per bather and run the jets for ten minutes. Test the water, you want to ensure your chlorine (dichlor) levels reach 5 ppm, no more....
You may want to check your test strips, or your measuring spoon. :) If my math is correct: assuming you are starting near 0ppm chlorine after a soak, you would need slightly less than a Tablespoon to get to 5 ppm. 1/2 teaspoon would equal about 1ppm in your tub. :-?
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You may want to check your test strips, or your measuring spoon. :) If my math is correct: assuming you are starting near 0ppm chlorine after a soak, you would need slightly less than a Tablespoon to get to 5 ppm. 1/2 teaspoon would equal about 1ppm in your tub. :-?
No way.
2 years no problems. ;)
I have to say, if i added a tablespoon (3 tespoons) my chlrone would be 10ppm.
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No way. 2 years no problems. ;) I have to say, if i added a tablespoon (3 tespoons) my chlrone would be 10ppm.
I didn't use a calculator, but do the math. I'm not saying you need to change what is working for you, but I don't think you are getting your tub to 5ppm with the doses you are talking about.
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I didn't use a calculator, but do the math. I'm not saying you need to change what is working for you, but I don't think you are getting your tub to 5ppm with the doses you are talking about.
What forumla do you use?
Are you taking into consideration the concetration of the chlrone product?
The other day, after new years, I had 5 folks in my tub for 45 minutes. I added 1 tablespoon of dichlor (or 6 "1.2" teaspoons and ran the jets for 40 mintues. My chlorine level an hour later was over 5ppm.)
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What forumla do you use? Are you taking into consideration the concetration of the chlrone product? The other day, after new years, I had 5 folks in my tub for 45 minutes. I added 1 tablespoon of dichlor (or 6 "1.2" teaspoons and ran the jets for 40 mintues. My chlorine level an hour later was over 5ppm.)
Yes, my estimate took into account available chlorine. I just extrapolated based on my 525 gal tub. I would think that in order to respond "No Way!" you'd be able to figure this out for yourself ;), but the formula would be: 1 million times(ounces of dichlor times %available chlorine) divided by ounces of water in the tub.
BTW your post party dose was about 6 ppm (again, assuming my math is correct).
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I replied "No way" becasue for 2 years I've been doing this, my test strips have been consistent, and my water just fine.
I'll triple check everything tonight and ensure my scoop is indeed 1/2 oz.
And if I have time, after the pub tonight, I'll dose and measure the tub. I'll add 1/2 oz and see, and add 1 tbl and see.
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I'll triple check everything tonight and ensure my scoop is indeed 1/2 oz. And if I have time, after the pub tonight, I'll dose and measure the tub. I'll add 1/2 oz and see, and add 1 tbl and see.
1/2 oz is 1 Tbl.;)
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ooops. Getting my measurements mixed.
All my dichlor measurments are 1/2 teaspoons. Disregard any 0z. (I'm doing ten things at once here).
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Are you still having problems with your ph level? Ever check your Alkalinity level? Your alkalinity is the one that will keep you ph in check for the most part. The higher your alkalinity is to 150 the harder it will be for your ph to fluctuate.
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I do that about once a month so i dont
have to fool with it!
These people that seem proud they haven't changed their water
in 9 months or a year....lol......I don't get it!
I wouldn't be proud of that.....lol.....2EachHisOwn!
That's an advantage you have living in Texas. Not everyone is as fortunate and has to plan their refills according to the weather.
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Well I double checked everything this a.m and I was surprised to find out that the old blue scoop I've been using since I had my POS nordic is....1 teaspoon. I had always thought it was 1/2. Huh. So, Reese was right. All this time I thought I was doseing .5 to 1 teaspoons of dichlor, I was actually doesing 1- 2 teaspoons.
I checked the tub using leisure time's test strips and the chlorine did not register (no color change, indicating a level of less than 1 ppm, PH. ALK and CA all good. :)
I added I scoop (1 teaspoon) of Dichlor, ran the jets and checked the levels 5 mintues later: 2 ppm. Eh. Marginaly acceptable.
I added another scoop (1 teaspoon, for a total of 2) ran the jets and the checked the levels 5 mintues later: The test strips indicated a level over 5ppm but not 10.
So my dosing of 1-2 scoops has been working great for me, but I have been incorrectly reporting the actual amount.
Thanks Reese. :)
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... So, Reese was right. All this time I thought I was doseing .5 to 1 teaspoons of dichlor, I was actually doesing 1- 2 teaspoons... So my dosing of 1-2 scoops has been working great for me, but I have been incorrectly reporting the actual amount. Thanks Reese. :)
Now, if I could just get you to understand ozone.... ;) ::)
Seriously though, I'm glad we found this little discrepancy -- not because it makes any difference in your situation... but because you are very good about sharing your routine with new owners, and it will help them to know the actual amounts. Last week we had two threads where people were having problems with their tubs while using <1 tsp doses, and another where a member told someone that a 5ppm dose was "way too much", and suggested 1/2 tsp in a tub your size. At times, it seems that people are focused too much on using micro amounts of sanitizer, when an extra 1/2 - 1 tsp would provide much more room for error/unanticipated challenges to the system, like pH >7.5 or a tough bug. As WSD so eloquently states "Spare the dichlor, and spoil the hot tub".
p.s. As long as we are getting precise, are you using level or rounded measurements?
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Now, if I could just get you to understand ozone.... ;) ::)
Seriously though, I'm glad we found this little discrepancy -- not because it makes any difference in your situation... but because you are very good about sharing your routine with new owners, and it will help them to know the actual amounts. Last week we had two threads where people were having problems with their tubs while using <1 tsp doses, and another where a member told someone that a 5ppm dose was "way too much", and suggested 1/2 tsp in a tub your size. At times, it seems that people are focused too much on using micro amounts of sanitizer, when an extra 1/2 - 1 tsp would provide much more room for error/unanticipated challenges to the system, like pH >7.5 or a tough bug. As WSD so eloquently states "Spare the dichlor, and spoil the hot tub".
p.s. As long as we are getting precise, are you using level or rounded measurements?
I agree that in a messge forum all advice is to be taken with a grain of salt. While my amounts were incorrect, I think you'll find that in all cases, testing the water after doesing is always stated. If itakes 1/2 or 10, onces, pounds or hammerfors, I think it's a consistent message that with dichlor levels 3-5 ppm are agreeded to be desirable.
As far as my levels, no they were not exact. They were rounded.
What is it that you want me to understand about ozone?
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As far as my levels, no they were not exact. They were rounded.
What is it that you want me to understand about ozone?
I asked about the measurement because 2 level tsp should only be 4ppm in your tub. The extra material in the "heaping" portion explains your test results of "over 5".
As far as ozone, let's let that dog sleep for awhile in the new year. :)
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If itakes 1/2 or 10, onces, pounds or hammerfors, I think it's a consistent message that with dichlor levels 3-5 ppm are agreeded to be desirable.
And if I asked "what's a hammerfor?" You'd say "to pound in nails", right? :D kinda like a henweigh.
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And if I asked "what's a hammerfor?" You'd say "to pound in nails", right? :D kinda like a henweigh.
At least you picked up on it tat.
You get a cookie. :)
A Henway? Oh, about 4lbs.
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;D man, I feel smart now....pathetic, isn't it? :P
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If I fill a 450 gallon tub with tap water. What would one suggest I add to the tub get the 3 to 5ppm level of chlorine in the water? In precise measurements.
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If I fill a 450 gallon tub with tap water. What would one suggest I add to the tub get the 3 to 5ppm level of chlorine in the water? In precise measurements.
To get precise measurements we need to know what is the available amount of chlorine that is in the dichlor your using ... it's not the 99% active ingredient. Dichlor can come in from 52% to 62% available chlorine. At your gallons, using 62% available chlorine - 3 not so heaping or not so level teaspoons or 1 tablespoon of the same amount of chlorine will give you about 4 to 4.5 PPM chlorine!
How's that for accuracy!!! ::) ;D
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I asked about the measurement because 2 level tsp should only be 4ppm in your tub. The extra material in the "heaping" portion explains your test results of "over 5".
As far as ozone, let's let that dog sleep for awhile in the new year. :)
This is a problem when trying to cut the amounts to bare minimums ... my teaspoon (or tablespoon) isn't exactly the same as someone elses. I would be crazy to stand there and scape off the excess chlorine that is above the 1 level scoopful. Sometimes I don't really add a teaspoon (close but not quite) depending on how I dig into the chlorine.
Aw comeon, lets start the new year right ... lets discuss ozone right off the bat! I really want In_Canada to send me one of his 60,000 watt ozone generators with the 40' mixing chamber ... I guess I will need to invest in a oil refinery to heat the water up though! 8-)
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... At your gallons, using 62% available chlorine - 3 not so heaping or not so level teaspoons or 1 tablespoon of the same amount of chlorine will give you about 4 to 4.5 PPM chlorine! How's that for accuracy!!!
Not so good! ;) Perhaps, my post happy hour math is bad, but I think the answer is closer to 5.5 ppm.
Repricej1, take a look at the formula I posted for Drewstar earlier in this thread. There are also published charts that show you the required dose for 1ppm in different sized tubs. At 55% available chlorine, you need 2tsp for 3 ppm, and 1 slightly heaping tbl for 5. Then you have to adjust for residual chlorine, bioload, pH, actual chlorine percentage of the product you are using, etc.
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Not so good! ;) Perhaps, my post happy hour math is bad, but I think the answer is closer to 5.5 ppm.
Repricej1, take a look at the formula I posted for Drewstar earlier in this thread. There are also published charts that show you the required dose for 1ppm in different sized tubs. At 55% available chlorine, you need 2tsp for 3 ppm, and 1 slightly heaping tbl for 5. Then you have to adjust for residual chlorine, bioload, pH, actual chlorine percentage of the product you are using, etc.
Reese. Where would I find the published charts for determining the required dosages. :-?
thanks
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Reese. Where would I find the published charts for determining the required dosages. :-?
thanks
Here is a link to the formulahttp://members.aol.com/pssoft/dosages.htm
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Here is the formula and an example from the link above.
Chlorine: US weights: % is available chlorine in compound, 65% = .65
Raise: ozs chlorine = gals x ppm x .000128 / %
Ex: To raise chlorine 10,000 gallons 1ppm
1.97 ozs calcium hypochlorite (65%) = 10000 x 1 x .000128 / .65
So if I want to raise my 336 gallon spa 3ppm with my 55% available chlorine dichlor product, this is the formula-
336 x 3 x .000128 / .55 = about .2345 ozs (about one heaping tsp)
If I make the switch to a product with a higher % available chlorine, let's say 62%.... the amount I would have to add to get a 3 ppm would be about .2081 oz. That's only a .026 difference. I don't know if that would be worth it or not. :-/
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If I fill a 450 gallon tub with tap water. What would one suggest I add to the tub get the 3 to 5ppm level of chlorine in the water? In precise measurements.
To get exact we need to know the % of available chlorine in your dichlor. I'll just use 57% for an average as most products are between 52-62%.
for a 3ppm- .30 ozs(about 2 tsp)
for a 4ppm- .40 ozs(about 2.5 tsp)
for a 5ppm- .50 ozs(1 tbs)
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Not so good! ;) Perhaps, my post happy hour math is bad, but I think the answer is closer to 5.5 ppm.
Repricej1, take a look at the formula I posted for Drewstar earlier in this thread. There are also published charts that show you the required dose for 1ppm in different sized tubs. At 55% available chlorine, you need 2tsp for 3 ppm, and 1 slightly heaping tbl for 5. Then you have to adjust for residual chlorine, bioload, pH, actual chlorine percentage of the product you are using, etc.
I was talking real world figures ... my tub is supposed to be 400 gallons, so I give it 380 to 420 (I do not measure the amount of water I put in) (and lets not forget evaporation and splash out) If I put in 1 heaping teaspoon of 62% chlorine that gives me not quite 2 PPM and when I use 2 teaspoons it comes out to about 3 PPM.
According to Taylor, 0.08 oz of 60% chlorine in a 400 gallon tub will give you 1 PPM chlorine and a teaspoon is 0.16 oz. so it should give someone with 400 gallons of water 2 PPM but do you actually have 400 gallons of water. Are you using pharmacutical grade measuring devices or the dollar store? (I use dollar store) Theoretics are great but real life is where it's at! 8-) ;) Remember ozone IS supposed to work in disinfecting water ... need I go on? ;D
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Here is the formula and an example from the link above.
Chlorine: US weights: % is available chlorine in compound, 65% = .65
Raise: ozs chlorine = gals x ppm x .000128 / %
Ex: To raise chlorine 10,000 gallons 1ppm
1.97 ozs calcium hypochlorite (65%) = 10000 x 1 x .000128 / .65
So if I want to raise my 336 gallon spa 3ppm with my 55% available chlorine dichlor product, this is the formula-
336 x 3 x .000128 / .55 = about .2345 ozs (about one heaping tsp)
If I make the switch to a product with a higher % available chlorine, let's say 62%.... the amount I would have to add to get a 3 ppm would be about .2081 oz. That's only a .026 difference. I don't know if that would be worth it or not. :-/
WHYNOT,
Thanks. This is good stuff! :)
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WHYNOT,
Thanks. This is good stuff! :)
Your Welcome..........I got the best stuff in town. ;)
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I was talking real world figures ... Theoretics are great but real life is where it's at!
:-? This from a man with 2400+ posts? I think we both need to get off the computer and into our tubs! ;) :)
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:-? This from a man with 2400+ posts? I think we both need to get off the computer and into our tubs! ;) :)
You are absolutely right!!!!