Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: neocacher on December 18, 2006, 10:55:57 am
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Its probably been covered before, but here I go anyways......
I have purchased ozone for a $250 add on to my Caldera Cumberland. It runs ONLY when the pump runs, which is about 2 hours a day for the cycle, when I am in it with the low speed pump running, and when it heats, maybe another 2 or 3 hours a day so maybe 5-6 hours total.
My dealer says that it will save me money on chemicals, but how can I verify this? I am still putting in chlorine 1/2-1 teaspoon (i eyeball it) every time that I use it, which is 1-2 times a day. And I already shocked it after 4 days after using it 8 times. How is the ozone saving me money? I think ozone may be a secondary cleaning boost but that's about it. At this point, I am NOT convinced!
I just don't see it! Help please! (or at least make me feel better about the purchase)
Cary in South Dakota
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ADDENDUM:
Also, I just got out of the tub this morning after doing a 15 minute soak. I had put in the teaspoon of chlorine last night after I used it, about 10 pm.
So, i decide to used a test strip before I put in any more chemicals after my soak this morning, and after I made my first post here.
The chlorine test showed pure white. So now I am less convinced than ever about the ozone.
Or does it not matter if the test strip shows white. I am more confused than ever.
Cary in South Dakota
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Sorry Neocacher, but unless you accept anecdotes and testimonials as fact, you aren't going to find anything to make you feel better about your purchase. Â As far as I know, there have been no scientific studies specific to ozone's effects in a hot-tub. Â The best information I've seen has been posted by Vermonter on this forum, based on his attempts to measure and verify any benefits. Â Do a search for his posts (be sure to expand the search period to a year). Â There was a thread in the last two weeks that went over this, including the Vermonter information.
As you read, you'll see this is a controversial topic. Â There are a lot of testimonials to its benefits here (some very positive, and from very credible sources), Â but the applied science contradicts the likelihood that ozone is providing much benefit in your tub. Â The problem appears to come in that the hot-tub industry has found that selling ozone wonders is an easy way to add another $2-300 to the sale. Â I think there are a lot of well-meaning folks who buy into the marketing, take the manufacturers' information and accept it as truth. Â They are able to maintain clean water at low chemical rates, and attribute it to ozone -- when in all likelihood, it is due to other factors. Â Unfortunately, science doesn't confirm it either way.
On the bright side, the ozone may be helping your water look and smell a little better, which isn't a bad thing in itself. Just don't expect a monetary return on the investment.
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I came to this conclusion before I read your reply, which I appreciate. I have talked to my dealer, and I will be removing my ozone unit and returning it for a refund. What convinced me to return it is that, unlike some 24 hour filtering tubs, my tub only filters 2-5 hours a day. When the pump isn't running, the ozone isn't working. Hence I would only get 10-25% of whatever benefits that there are with ozone. I would rather save the $270 and use a few more chemicals, if in fact this is the case.
No need to respond further, (unless someone wants to) as I am aware this is a controversial subject.
Cary in South Dakota
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Sounds like you made a good choice
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$270 will buy a lot of dichlor.
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$270 will buy a lot of dichlor.
Because of your use pattern I would say good move returning the unit. But if you do not use your tub everyday, like some of us. There may be more of a benifit of not having to go add dichlor everyday. Combined with N2 I do feel it helps to extend the lenght of time between additions and allows your tub to stay bacteria free longer with no chlorine residual. In other words if your not adding any nastys (not using it) then your tubs ozone and the mineral purifier can keep up longer keeping your water clean.
Of course these are just my observations and as was stated there seems to be absolutly no scientific evidence that either Ozone or N2 do anything.
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Quick clearification. There is scientific proof that ozone oxidizes contaminates it comes in contact with. There is not however scientific proof that it makes an actual difference in how much chlorine you have to use or that it effectively sanitizes the spa water.
Speaking of clearification. Go to clearification.com its funny. ;D
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Quick clearification. There is scientific proof that ozone oxidizes contaminates it comes in contact with. There is not however scientific proof that it makes an actual difference in how much chlorine you have to use or that it effectively sanitizes the spa water.
As you know from the the thread last week, "in contact with" is the issue. Â It does not appear that it is possible to get enough ozone in solution in a hot-tub environment to accomplish much of anything (other than oxidizing the air in the injector tube! 8-)).
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Think of ozone as this ... a red car is traveling east on I-80 in the Midwest and blue car is traveling west on I-80 in the Northeast. How long does it take for each driver to realize that the other car is on I-80 if they turn off 10 miles after getting onto I-80? The answer is NEVER!!!
Another scenario is there are 50,000 people trying to get out of a sports arena after a game (their team was winning by a close score) and only 1 gate is open. How likely is there to be bumper to bumper traffic getting out of the parking lot. DEFINATELY!
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Well Ozone is proven to kill bacteria. That's a fact and there are reports on the effectiviness of ozone. However, (And this were we get into the anecdotal part), it seems that folks who have success with ozone are running it 24 x 7. Users with units running only a few hours a day seem to report less satisfaction than others.
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Think of ozone as this ... a red car is traveling east on I-80 in the Midwest and blue car is traveling west on I-80 in the Northeast....
An ozone thread is like a box of chocolates, most of the posts/candies are just OK -- but every now and then you get a caramel or a nut. I'm not sure which this post is, but it definitely is not a boring creme. :-? Now Drewstar, continuing to champion ozone, is a little easier call! ;) ::) ;D
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As you know from the the thread last week, "in contact with" is the issue. It does not appear that it is possible to get enough ozone in solution in a hot-tub environment to accomplish much of anything (other than oxidizing the air in the injector tube! 8-)).
I must have missed that one. Do you have a link or pointer?
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I must have missed that one. Â Do you have a link or pointer?
It was the one that Vermonter chimed in on. Â You were in it at one point. Â I know, because I disagreed with you, in my usual delicate way. ::) Â If you missed it, I'll just apologize in advance. :)
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It was the one that Vermonter chimed in on. You were in it at one point. I know, because I disagreed with you, in my usual delicate way. ::) If you missed it, I'll just apologize in advance. :)
Huh. I;ll have to go diggin. Because I did not walk away with the impressin that there is no way its possible to get enough O3 into a tub to be effective. "
That's just wrong. :P ;)
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That's just wrong. Â :P ;)
;D ;D ;D Â I'll just agree to disagree, in advance. Â Let's not re-open that can of worms.
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;D ;D ;D I'll just agree to disagree, in advance. Let's not re-open that can of worms.
?
I was just looking for statements to support you quote
As you know from the the thread last week, "in contact with" is the issue. It does not appear that it is possible to get enough ozone in solution in a hot-tub environment to accomplish much of anything (other than oxidizing the air in the injector tube! Cool).
After going thrugh the thread, I didn't find anything that suported that statment.
Measurement was an issue, as well as voluem and amount and contact but your statement gives the impression it was more or less stated o3 is not an effective sanitizer in hot tubs. That's simpley not true, and misleading.
O3 can work.
There, now we can agree to disagree. :)
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...your statement gives the impression it was more or less stated o3 is not an effective sanitizer in hot tubs. That's simpley not true, and  misleading.  O3 can work.
There, now we can agree to disagree. Â :)
LOL! Â This seems to be a classic case of perspective altering the interpretation of what you read. Â I don't care if you want to cling to your belief, or whether you think I'm right or wrong, but "couldn't find anything that supported statement", "not true" and "misleading"??? :-? I certainly hope you were kidding!
I've pulled out a few Vermonter quotes for you from the other thread, so you can see where I was coming from. Â I suppose then we can argue about whether they were taken out of context or not. Â My apologies to Vermonter for editing, and removing context :
"In the past I have challenged anyone to provide defensible results showing that dissolved ozone concentrations are present in EITHER the contact chamber of, more importantly, the main hot tub water. ... Â I have tried measuring ozone myself - in my hot tub, in my contact chamber, in a few other hot tubs and have been unable to get any measurable (my detection level is 0.03 ppm) levels of dissolved ozone. Â If you don't have a dissolved ozone residual - you will not get any "kill". "
"I have yet to see any manufacture of tub or ozonator publish defensible, empirically generated data on dissolved ozone concentrations in tubs. Â A couple of years ago, my personal communication with a very, very large tub manufacturer and the largest manufacturer of ozone generators for factory installed units (in hot tubs) confirmed that it is "unlikely" to be able to achieve and measurable ozone level in the hot tub water itself."
"It is a popular option for many hot tubs and, in my opinion, functions as an oxidizer and, as a result, may slightly reduce the need for your normal oxidizer / sanitizer. Â I have yet to see any data to support any claim that ozone can function as a stand-alone sanitizer in hot tubs or, for that matter, that it can exert any "killing" effect on microbes in hot tubs. "
Â
"Do I have it on my hot tub? Â Yes! Â Will I keep it? Â Yes! Â Is there any scientific reason for that? Â No - at least not based on any numbers I have been able to generate or that I have seen in the literature! Â But I enjoy watching the bubbles!"
"The fact that the dissolved ozone concentration (in mg/L) in hot tubs is so low that you can't really detect it (at least I haven't been able to and no manufacturer that I am aware of makes claims as to dissolved concentration in the hot tub itself), this means that ozone is likely too low to function at all as a disinfectant."
Did you miss all that when looking for support of my statement? :-?
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Thos statements abover were made in a discussion of "Ozone as Stand Alone Unit" (ie not using bromine or Dichlor).
How to measure it, how much to use, to ensure its working - as realted to dichlor measuring a certain amoutn out and being able to test it.
However, Those statements above were NOT made in a discussion of Does Ozone work? Ozone does work as a sanitizer. Cripes, you make it sound like O3 is just as bad, or worse than those crazy N2 voodoo beads.
;)
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Like I said, "Ozone is like religion..." ::).
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Like I said, "Ozone is like religion..." ::).
Ozone Jihad!
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However, Those statements above were NOT made in a discussion of  Does Ozone work?  Ozone does work as a sanitizer. Cripes, you  make it sound like O3 is just as bad, or worse than those crazy N2 voodoo beads.
;)
If a reading of ozone is taken and can't be measure, how much ozone is there? is it 1,000,000,000,000 PPM or is it 0.0000000000000001. I opt for the second ... It may be voodoo.
I "know" that my ozonator does something because there is a brown residue up to about 2" from the venturi output. I doubt that 15" away it's doing something, see the technical post.
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so while we're on the ozone topic, I was looking at the ozone option for a Nordic hottub, and found a point to a company called Del Online that sells ozonators for spas. They have one for $100 that they claim can be retrofitted to a tub. Info is http://www.delonlinestore.com/stores/Spa-Purification-C7.aspx?UserID=104325&SessionID=fjHvodsVBP6Hfi9X0eiw
Has anyone ever tried adding one after they got their hottub installed? Seems like it may be a better way to go - run the thing without it for awhile, and if it seems like there is an issue with water quality, try adding it to see if it helps. And if it doesn't, you're out $100, not $2-300 that the dealers charge.
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You can buy many on-line - Del, Prozone, JED, Â probably Balboa and who knows who else.
They all have instructions on how to retrofit the tub either with or without a circ pump. Personally I wouldn't touch a tub with a warranty if pipes needed to be cut and more pipes added to add an ozonator. No warranty - no problem.
IMO, Del has the marketing and their units produce very little ozone. I have turned off the ozonator and saw very little difference in the water clarity. I have also turned my ozonator on for 24/7 and saw a little improvement. I now run it 8 hours a day to give ozone a chance to do something - either oxidize or sanitize something ... anything. As I said I do have a brown residue on the tube close to the injector so it does something.
I forget how much the Del systems put out but I remember that the JED 103 advertizes that it puts out 2.4 grams a day and the Prozone PZ1 advertizes to put out 8 grams a day. I don't think the Del was anywhere near the 2.4 grams a day.
If you're up to a experiment, you certainly can give it a try. I know when the time comes to replace the ozonator I will probably get the prozone PZ1, I agree for $100 it certainly worth the try.