Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: lawdawgva on September 27, 2006, 05:18:43 pm

Title: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on September 27, 2006, 05:18:43 pm
Well, I'm back after a long absence.  Its been a great summer and I've been away from home a lot and the rest of the time I've been remodeling my living room so I haven't been on the forum a great deal.  When I got home from my last vacation last week, I noticed my deck was wet around the moto massage area of my HS Sovreign.  Well today I had a chance to dig into it.  I found it leaking at the plastic nipple where a very small (1/4 or 3/8" possibly) hose attaches to it with a spring clamp.  The edge of the hose looks dry rotted so I'm sure I can probably cut back aways and attach an adapter, new length of hose on the end and new clamp and be ok there.   Three questions.
 
1. I noticed wetness in the softer foam insulation above this area and a fair way to the sides as I dug.  Do you think this could be from wicking action?  Should I look for another leak farther up?  I didn't see anythign obvious leaking down the inner part of the shell above that area (4 air outlets at the neck area of the moto massage were dry), just the wetness of the soft insulation.

2.  I cracked the two boards I took off.  I could probably repair them to work, but just out of curiosity...where do you get replacement boards to match and what would they run pricewise?

3. What type of insulation should I use to seal it all up when i am sure the leak is fixed? Low expansion Great Stuff???  Pack in loose insulation??

If this doesn't fix it I guess I'll call in the pros.  I just wanted to see if it was something simple since the lady at the dealer said it would be a $75 call charge and $65 per hour plus parts.  She also said sometimes they like to bring them in at additional cost if necessary.  My middle name is Scrooge so......nuff said.  Thanks for any help you can give on this.  I will say this....digging into just that small area and getting the harder insulation away from the hoses was a b**ch.....so I can understand the high labor charge for working on these things.  Hats off to those who have refurbished their own tubs.

Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: wesj53 on September 27, 2006, 05:33:34 pm
Just out of curiousity, how old is your spa?
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on September 27, 2006, 05:35:51 pm
1997 model.  I bought it used last June for $1500.  It was in great shape and this is the first problem I've had with it.

- Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: wesj53 on September 27, 2006, 05:46:39 pm
Well at least the price was right! I do feel for you, though, fighting all that foam. Once you locate and repair the problem, then are you going to re-foam? Using what? Does HS offer a foaming cartridge or do they have to come out to do it?
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: shabba34 on September 27, 2006, 05:51:07 pm
Quote
1997 model.  I bought it used last June for $1500.  It was in great shape and this is the first problem I've had with it.

- Law Dawg
I'll get you the price of the boards tomorrow, you may need to stain the boards to match as well.  Repair sounds fine, just a bleed nipple.  Replace with expansion foam.  Just don't close the wound for a few days to make sure repair was done properly. ;)  
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: Chas on September 27, 2006, 08:28:48 pm
Yes, exactly what was just posted.

One more detail - there is a bleed nipple repair part for those little parts. It is part number 30598, and you can drill out the old one with a 19/64" drill bit (yes, a 5/16" will do in a pinch) and then glue the nipple in with good quality PVC cement. Let it cure for several hours before you try to put the bleed line back on it - and be sure to warm up the  tubing a bit. I use a low-dollar heat gun from the craft store, but a cup of really hot water fresh out of the microwave oven will work if you can dip the end of the tub into it.

And if the clamp is rusted - which they usually are if the leak has been ther for awhile - be sure to replace it. Get that from your HS dealer at the same time.

If you need help getting these parts send me an email and I would be very glad to help.

 8-)
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: gturn on September 27, 2006, 09:37:22 pm
Make sure you leave the side panels off until everything is good and dry after you are done.  I saw a spa that had a leak and the entire inside became a big sponge and got mold in it and it stunk bad.  I don't know if they recommend removing all the wet foam and replacing it or if it will dry out if you let it air out.  Maybe you could run a fan on it like they do on carpet that gets wet.  Good luck.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on September 27, 2006, 11:01:03 pm
Lots of great advice, thanks everyone (and keep it coming if you have something more to add!)  

At this point, I think that it is just the end of the tubing that is cracked and leaking but I will know more later this week when I actually pull the tubing off and check the state of the nipple.  If the nipple needs replacing, Chas, I will probably be contacting you for the info on the kit to fix.  Hopefully it is just the end of the tubing where it is kinked and I can slice off the bad part, put a two sided barb connector on a new short piece of tubing and then connect that to the existing nipple.  We will see what happens.

Now as for the softer foam insulation, yes it was VERY water logged all the way around this area.  I took out a great deal and even pulled it all the way out to the bottom meeting the wooden rail of the frame and a lot of it was draining out there tonight. The hard outer foam was acting as a dam and blocking the water in until I dug it all the way out down to the bottom and that seemed to open things up so to speak.  I hope it will dry out.  I only had to remove two boards to access this area (as I had a pretty good idea where the leak was at from the get go).  I dont want to remove (i.e. "break") LOL any more boards so that open space will have to do for drying out the inside.  Just praying at this point that that is the only leak, I'd sure hate to have to go digging for more.  <fingers, toes and eyes crossed>

-Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: hottub.pool_boy on September 28, 2006, 08:05:15 am
Chas has it. Get some waterprrof Elmer's carpentry wood glue to fix the boards, restain when dry. Your dealer or I can get you new boards if you want. Some spray-can expanding foam works fine, shave off the extra before putting the boards back on. To glue the boards back use a construction adhesive and some thin nails at the base of the board to go through the wood at the bottom. Let us know if you need anything.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on October 02, 2006, 09:19:45 am
Ok...here's the scoop.  It is the actual nipple that has cracked and broken.  I called my HS dealer today and the repair tech was very nice and gave me his cell phone number in case I needed to call him further on this.  I was impressed.  He told me that the repair nipple was cheap as dirt.  He said, just as was stated earlier, that I could drill the hole out and put the new nipple in with something he called Dafcon(sp)??  However he said that he'd have to sell me a whole kit of that which ran $80!!!!  So, he said in a pinch I could use "high strength PVC Glue"  I asked at Home Depot and Lowes and no one has ever heard of  "high strength".  They say its all one strength.  So.....my question is, do I trust this repair to regular PVC Glue?  Will this hold?  I do not want to do this repair again for the foreseable future.   Also...the waterlogged insulation is not drying out very quickly, is it permissable to close this repair up even if there is some moisture left in there?

-Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: Tatooed_Lady on October 02, 2006, 11:41:19 am
maybe replace the nipple, and wait for the surrounding insulation to dry before re-foaming....it won't be a "pretty" time for your tub, but hopefully it'll be the only time you have to work on this particular repair...good thing you found the leak now instead of mid-December..... ::)
(just my $.01 3/4)
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: Chas on October 02, 2006, 01:51:57 pm
Quote
I asked at Home Depot and Lowes and no one has ever heard of  "high strength".  They say its all one strength.  So.....my question is, do I trust this repair to regular PVC Glue?  Will this hold?  I do not want to do this repair again for the foreseable future.
I have used "Christy's Red Hot Blue Glue" forever. And I have done several of these repairs with just that - it works fine. I just wanted you to avoid the real cheap clear PVC glue which can be a problem.

If they carry Oatey, use the Heavy Gray.
(http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/instance_assets/images/catalog/productimages/pvc_heavy_gray.jpg)
If they have the Christy's, use the Red Hot Blue Glue.
(http://www.tchristy.com/gif/iRedHot.gif)

And get all the wet faom out. It's a pain, but get it all.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on October 02, 2006, 03:57:30 pm
They definately have the Oatey Grey....but I'll check on the Christys  and see if they have that too since you've used it with success.   Yeah the wet foam is going to be a pain....I'm probably going to have to remove a few more boards on each side because this booger has been leaking for a few weeks now and everything has had time to soak it up like a sponge.  Guess I'd better get digging.  At least the temps here are scheduled to be in the 50's at night and 80's in the daytime.  Going to get the nipple today since they have them in stock.  I'll keep you all posted.

-Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: st18901 on October 03, 2006, 02:09:53 am
Wow - Deja vu to my HS restoration project last year.
Sounds like all the advice is good, so I won't add any.
I'll just reiterate what hot tub boy said about gluing the boards -- do it carefully, and you'll never know they were cracked.
Just make sure to clean the glue that squeezes out of the crack before it dries. Otherwise, it's unneeded work to get the wood to match.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: hottub.pool_boy on October 03, 2006, 08:16:33 am
You need transition cement---ABS to PVC.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on October 05, 2006, 12:24:54 pm
I had an unexpected half day off yesterday and the weather here in VA is beautiful so I picked up the new bleed nipple, drilled out the old one and glued the new one in.  I am leaving to go out of town to the Seafood Festival in Morehead NC tonight so I wont be able to refill the tub till first of next week.  That should defeinately let it cure well.

Out of curiosity, can anyone tell me what this bleed line does for the moto massge??  I mean I know what a "bleed line" is but what the heck is it bleeding and why is it necesesary on my tub?  From what I hear, there are  a lot of problems with leaks from this part.  I've found info on many websites about it.  Has HS remedied this in the years since?  Inquiring minds want to know!

-Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on October 10, 2006, 05:09:32 pm
Back from my long weekend.....cleaned and filled the tub this morning.  No leaks at the bleed nipple repair.  I broke a few more boards as I had to remove several more around the leak in order to get all of the wet foam insulation out.  It was starting to smell bad in there.  I will have to figure out if I can fix all these puzzle pieces of skirting or try to buy some new boards.  I'm going to leave it open for a few days to make sure the repair held.

-Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: wesj53 on October 10, 2006, 09:32:17 pm
At the great risk of being severly criticized for the following, let me first state that I am NOT rubbing salt in the wound of lawdawgva for his leakage problem. Rather, I am asking prospective buyers to seriously consider the problems associated with FF units if a leak does develop past the warranty period. I understand the unit is 10 years old, but I still would not want to deal with the mess that this owner is going thru. When I have mentioned this potential problem on this site before, I was criticized by FF dealers for overblowing this possibility. Well, as I said before, if there is one thing almost everyone agrees with, it's that sooner or later, spas leak. Which would you rather fix, a fully foamed or an open chamber style?
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on October 11, 2006, 10:56:39 am
No offense taken wesj53.

Let me preface this post by saying that I still love my HS Sovreign and if I were looking to buy a new tub tomorrow, HS would definately be on my list of spas to test.  To be 10 yrs old and have only needed this one leak repair which cost me a grand total of $5 so far (not counting any replacement skirting boards I might need to buy) is a pretty good track record.

Having said that, this repair HAS made me stop and think about the drawbacks of repairing a FF tub leak.  This was a relatively small leak, a crack where the nipple attaches to the tub.  Because of the small amount of water and the foam I did not notice the leak until it had gone through all of the softter foam insulation and began leaking out around the skirting. ( I had attributed the small water loss to evap.)  Since it had been leaking by my estimate for about 2 months, it had absolutely soaked the soft foam insulation for several feet on each side of the leak and had even wicked upward to the top of the tub.

It was not a pleasant experience digging through all that foam.  Everyone says do not use "tools" to remove it for fear of puncturing a hose, fitting, etc.  I dont know about anyone else, but I could not remove the hard foam insulation without a putty knife, screwdriver and a claw hammer (no lie).  Fortunately I went about it slowly and did not damage anything else.  I filled up a 55 gal trashbag with foam from this repair.  The foam also posed a problem of hiding the leak.  Had I not read on this board that the moto massage area was norotious for leaks, I have started digging on the other end of the tub because foam was wet on the opposite end also and leaking from underneath the skirting.

I am not educated enough to get into the debate of whether FF or TP is more efficient, sturdier, better, etc.  but I will say that this repair (and any other) would have been much much easier had #1. I not had to dig through all that blasted foam  and while we are at it #2. The side panels were attached in such a way that they are easier to remove without ruining them.  i.e. in large "area panels" attached with screws.  Say, take out 6 screws or so and a large side section comes off.  On this repair I'm very tempted to stuff some loose insulation in there, staple some of the foil bubble insulation between the frame and put my boards back on.  As you can imagine, I"m very leary of foaming this end up and risk having to dig back into it in the future.  Ugh!

Just my thoughts and musings for this morning.

-Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: Altazi on October 11, 2006, 11:11:10 am
I am glad to hear you are nearing the finish line on this project, Lawdawgva.  I have been watching this thread with a great deal of interest.  You said you'd spent $5 on materials - how much is your time worth?  Or are you looking at this as some kind of hobby? ;)

I'd like to hear from some professional spa repair techs on this.  Would you all be doing the same things that Lawdawgva has done?  How long would a job like this take, and how much would the repair cost?  Is the foam in this tub used to provide support for the shell?  If so, is the spa just as structurally sound after the repair?  Is this an unusually nasty repair, or are there worse?  What do you suppose caused this problem?

Regards,

Altazi
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: Chas on October 11, 2006, 11:26:42 am
Quote
I'd like to hear from some professional spa repair techs on this.  Would you all be doing the same things that Lawdawgva has done?Yes, pretty much.  
How long would a job like this take, and how much would the repair cost?That's a very hard one to answer. With experience, a good tech can usually find a leak much faster than an amateur. Yes, the bleed nipples cracked near the MotoMassage housing a lot, so that is the first place I would have checked - I would have done so by driving a small hole into the foam in that area and then filling and operating the spa elevated on blocks. That way, in about an hour, I can get a pretty good idea if the nipple is to blame or not. From there, another hour will have the spa emptied and the foam removed. The actual repair can take minutes once the foam is out of the way. Newer HotSpring tubs have removable side panels. I would then do exactly what Law Dog has done: let it set overnight, fill and run to observe if the leak if fixed. Then I would dig out all wet foam and replace with new foam. That is the expensive part, BTW.  Is the foam in this tub used to provide support for the shell?  If so, is the spa just as structurally sound after the repair? Yes, the area around the MotoMassage is pretty strong for two reasons: it is near the top of the tub which is thicker material, and it has the MotoMassage housing bonded to the shell which acts to strengthen that area of the shell. Is this an unusually nasty repair, or are there worse?I think that the four Precision Jets above the Moto Massage unit are harder to repair because they are somewhat harder to get to.  What do you suppose caused this problem?As the foam expands on the production line, it can sometimes impart a bit of preload to the tubing in this area. It is a hard space to foam correctly, so they have modified the way it is done to get rid of this problem. They also beefed up the little nipples to allow them to handle side-stress if it is present. The nipples are there for two reasons: one is to drain the water out of the area for folks who winterize their spa, and the other is to have a smal flow of water from the circ pump through the cavity behind the MotoMassage jet to keep the water fresh and hot in that cavity.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on October 11, 2006, 11:44:07 am
Altazi,

I definately dont work on hottubs as a hobby....thats what Guns are for!! :D  Anyways, I am guessing I spent 3 hours digging for, finding and fixing the leak, not counting the time to reinsulate and purchase and replace skirting (yet to be done).  Granted  I am not a professional and had never done this before, so I'm sure some of that time was spent scratching my head and drinking beer.    I'm a fairly handy guy, so what "scared" me into doing this was the fact that my dealer said  there was an $85 service call and I think $65 per hour after that.  She also said sometimes they had to bring the tub into the shop which would be an extra fee.  I'm not poor but I started seeing my mad money fund dwindling before my eyes when she told me that.  I'm not sorry I did the repair myself, but it was not something I'd want to get into again.

-Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: imp etc on October 12, 2006, 12:33:29 pm
Hi All,

I am having nasty flashbacks to this past spring when I was trying to resurrect the old Sundance we had. As it turned out, there were multiple leaks, the worst of which was in a place we would have been unable to see, much less reach, much less fix on our own. Finally saw where the big leak was when the tub was cut up into chunks and loaded onto a pickup for disposal.

Since the tub was very old, I had an independent tech out to look at it, and he basically said he would not do the job at any price. As a DIY project, I'd probably still be working on it lo these many moons later.

I wish I had taken pix of the tub with the skirting removed. It looked like one of Term's nightmare tubs, with the added enticement of a very mature colony of spiders and cobwebs. As far as I could tell, it was nowhere near fully-foamed, and even so, a human being would have had to become a pretzel to get all the way in there and do the job. Seriously, it looked like Mordor in there.

Anyhow, don't know what this adds to the discussion, except  lawdawgva, I feel your pain, and I wish you many happy soaks for all your effort!  :)
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on October 25, 2006, 08:13:04 am
UPDATE.....Leak is fixed!  Went better than I expected.  I didn't relish the thought of payin g for replacement slats for the ones I broke on the skirting, so I pulled out my trusty hot glue gun and put all the  slats together like a jig saw puzzle, gluing as I went along.  After a new coat of stain next year, I don't think it will be noticable at all as it barely is now.   So, I guess I learned a little something by doing this repair myself and saved a few bucks I'm sure.  I do know that the other night when I got into the water for the first time since the repair, it felt even better than I can ever remember.

-LawDawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: Chas on October 25, 2006, 12:31:04 pm
Hear ye, Hear ye!

Be it known that from this day forward in perpetuity that

[glow]LAW DAWG[/glow]

is hereby inducted into the sacred halls of the rare and most official

Order of the Foam Diggers

And is hereby afforded all the rights and privelages accorded to any and all

Spa Repairmen, protectors of Spatopia.


Further, once the skin grows back on his knuckles and the wrinkles subside on his pruny fingers,

and once the rust has been scraped from his mighty digging tools of choice,

including but not limited to his

[size=12]Claw Hammer[/size]
[/i]

he is hereby allowed one extra

Heartfelt Sigh of Satisfaction

upon entering, and relaxing in, his now-watertight spa.

Be it known to all.[/font]

Signed this 25th day of the month of October, 2006
Chas - lord of the Foam.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: In Canada eh on October 25, 2006, 11:02:33 pm
Quote
The nipples are there for two reasons: one is to drain the water out of the area for folks who winterize their spa, and the other is to have a smal flow of water from the circ pump through the cavity behind the MotoMassage jet to keep the water fresh and hot in that cavity.[/b]
[/quote]


        HMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

Dosen't this sound like the same thing that people claim is a problem with Bullfrog.   Does Hot Springs have a problem with the water in this cavity going skunky.  Just kidding ;D   Chas, sorry to use your post to make a point.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: IDW on October 25, 2006, 11:55:28 pm
Quote
At the great risk of being severly criticized for the following, let me first state that I am NOT rubbing salt in the wound of lawdawgva for his leakage problem. Rather, I am asking prospective buyers to seriously consider the problems associated with FF units if a leak does develop past the warranty period. I understand the unit is 10 years old, but I still would not want to deal with the mess that this owner is going thru. When I have mentioned this potential problem on this site before, I was criticized by FF dealers for overblowing this possibility. Well, as I said before, if there is one thing almost everyone agrees with, it's that sooner or later, spas leak. Which would you rather fix, a fully foamed or an open chamber style?



I sell full foam spas made by Pacific Spas in Canada. They use a foam called Icylene that does not absord water. If a spa leaks the water follows gravity and I can use a ohm meter to find the leak. The foam comes out easy and is not like glue. The company that makes Icylene supplies me with the insulation to replace the patch.

Packing Foam which is way cheaper is a really bad idea.
So when you ask  prospective buyers to seriously consider the problems associated with FF units did you even know the differences in foams.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: Spatech_tuo on October 26, 2006, 10:54:01 am
Quote
       HMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

Dosen't this sound like the same thing that people claim is a problem with Bullfrog.   Does Hot Springs have a problem with the water in this cavity going skunky.  Just kidding ;D   Chas, sorry to use your post to make a point.

They probably would if they didn't have the nipple there. It seems that Bullfrog may have had the problem there in the beginning (I'm not a Bullfrog historian but that's what I surmise) and have since added the flow to resolve it but once you have an issue sometimes others like to remind people as if it's current.
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: lawdawgva on October 26, 2006, 02:25:15 pm
Chas,

I just wanted you to know that I printed out your proclamation and it is hanging on my bulletin board, proudly displayed for all to see!  One question.....can I also have a spa babe come over and pat me on the head while we are soaking and having and adult beverage and say "what a good boy you are!"

-Law Dawg
Title: Re: HS Moto Massage Leak
Post by: drewstar on October 26, 2006, 03:01:19 pm
Quote
One question.....can I also have a spa babe come over and pat me on the head while we are soaking and having and adult beverage and say "what a good boy you are!"

-Law Dawg


I'm in charge of the that Department.  

Sure, no problem. This is a "full service forum".

We can send down one of our Member Appreciation  models.

She charges There is a  donation of $175 an hour. And Yup, She'll call you a good boy.

Oh,  FWIW,  for a  $200 "donation", she'll say "What a bad boy you are"  ;)


If  those prices are too much, we can offer Luralean, she'll come by and tell you what great job you did for $6.50.
(bus fare)
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/GodlikeMoron/uf2.jpg)


I know, I know...I'm getting banned.   :P