Hot Tub Forum
General => General info Somewhat hot tub related => Topic started by: GoBlue on May 27, 2007, 01:28:38 pm
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I'm having the pool renovated and I'm looking on advice on a new filter. Sand vs cartridge vs de. also advice on chlorine delivery methods. Any pool forums as good as this one?
Thanx.
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A lot depends on where you live how accessible water is (city water or well) how big your pool is and frequency of use. D E filters are expensive but work awesome Sand filters are cheaper but if you are on water restrictions it will cost you with all the backwashing you have to do. You can also convert your sand filter to a glass media where you wont have to backwash as much. Cartridge filters conserve water cost quite a bit you need to have spares on hand but I find are harder to bring your pool back once
you have lost it. I would recommend a salt generator by Jandy or Gold line(hayward) There are even salt/ozone generators if you feel like being different.
Havent found a good pool forum yet
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You can try poolforum.com. Â Its a pretty active forum. Â If you don't mind the strong opinions on how to handle your water chemistry, you can gain some good information there.
FWIW, I use a cartridge filter on my small (7000 gallon) AG pool and couldn't be more satisfied. Â Being in the northeast, the pool is open only in season but I clean the filter when I close the pool, install it when I open and don't touch it till I close again. Â My water is always crystal clear, not once has it been cloudy. Â The filter is very large though and clean it by soaking overnight with a filter cleaning solution in a clean rubbish barrel and rinsing well.
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I also have been on poolforum.com. Apparently the moderator/owner there hasn't been around for a long while and others have started up there own similar forum.
I bought a DE filter and I live in NJ. I did a lot of research and asked friends who owned pools and they all told me - get DE. I did and I think it's great. Apparently, there is no filter like a DE filter for really getting all the stuff out of the water.
It clears up the pool within 24 hours and the pool is always sparking when it's running right. I say this because I notice it will stop running correctly way before the pressure goes up the 5 or 10 PSI that the instructions say. But with that said it's just a routine that you need to change the DE on a regualar basis. I do it about once a month ... I opened it up this weekend and will replace the DE in June. This year I opened it up to cloudy water and I had to replace the DE after 24 hours. I have it down pat so it took me 15 minutes ... no big deal. But my pool is sparkling again.
As far as expensive, I think they are about the same price as a sand filter. They gave me a choice of either sand or DE when I bought the pool so I can't see them being much more expensive. I've read that if you go with a sand filter that you can use a cup of DE powder to ultra filter the water if need be.
As far as chlorine, on poolforum they say a lot of good things on SOME salt water generators. My pool is above ground and I asked about that and they said not to use them on an above ground pool ... will cause corrosion to the pool walls.
At this point I don't think you can register at poolforum but it's definately worth the effort to read the posts there. The owner ruled with an iron fist, he has people using household chemicals when available and the people there have a great understanding of pools. I've used a modified approach to their method ... I've used bleach, trichlor and cal hypo for chlorine as needed; I've used borax to raise PH and that's where I learned to use baking soda to raise alkalinity.
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At one time my parents had an AG pool and used DE for filtering and I never ever saw the water cloudy. Â We, on the other hand, once had an AG pool with cartridge filtering and it was never ever clear.
My 2¢
:D
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Thanks for the information. I looked at poolforum.com and tried to register. They have registration trned off. No search feature that I can find either.
The pool renovator leans toward DE and sand filters. The sand filter we currently have is easy to backwash but replacing the sand (lots of cottonwood) is a pain. The cartridge system the spa uses seems to work well for the spa and wondered if the a big one (how big?) would work for the pool.
The DE filter i guess, from the posts, keeps the pool cleaner. Is it worth the extra work?
Thanks for all your help.
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There's not too much work in a DE filter ...
Step 1 - turn off filter.
Step 2 - attach the backwash hose.
Step 3 - bump the grids (if the filter has a bump feature).
(These following steps are for above ground pool ... I use gravity and non powered water pressure to clean filter, you may need to use the filter pump).
Step 4 - open up the backwash valve.
Step 5 - having a beer, water, wine or coffe (morning) watch the water flow until flows semi clear.
Strep 6 - close backwash valve
Step 7 - repeat steps 3 to 6 Â - 2 or 3 times more.
Step 8 - Turn on filter and add DE powder.
Like I said, I started the pool yesterday and I replaced the DE this morning ... the above steps took all of 15 minutes to complete.
Some filters have a bump feature where it regenerates the DE that's in the filter. Basically all it does is dislodge the DE that's on the grids and when the filter starts again deposits it back onto the grid. It does buy a little time but I have found that when I bump a filter its time to replace the DE. BTW, DE (actually I use a product called aqua pearl) costs about $20 a bag ... depending on the size of the filter this should last you at least a season, possibly more.
As far as poolforum, there is no search feature but each subject is broken down with posts on it. (if you go onto the site and are interested in salt water generators - go to that subject). here's a link to that info: Â http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/forumdisplay.php?f=138
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Thanks Vinny, Doesn't seem to much different than my sand filter. I'm going to look ata a DE more closely.
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You can try poolforum.com. Its a pretty active forum. If you don't mind the strong opinions on how to handle your water chemistry, you can gain some good information there.
Is that the place where the moderator insists on only using laundry bleach and won't allow discussions about anything else? :-?
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Is that the place where the moderator insists on only  using laundry bleach and won't allow discussions about anything else?  :-?
Yup. Â Thats the place. Â If you can get through the strong opinions regarding sanitation, there are some informative posts there.
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Is that the place where the moderator insists on only using laundry bleach and won't allow discussions about anything else? :-?
And that got me banned from the site *LOL*..
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I saw the bleach thread. So how does bleach compare to the different chlorine delivery sytems and forms?
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Bleach is readily available; it is about 1/2 the potency of liquid pool chlorine but is easily destroyed by heat and sunlight.
There apparently is a bleach (or liquid pool chlorine) dispenser that you attach to your filter pump and it delivers chlorine that way.
Why Bleach? Well for a lot of people who go into pool stores - chlorine is expensive and some people will get ripped off. Adding bleach TO A POOL (we are not talking spa here for anyone reading this who thinks we may) adds nothing in the way of CYA, alkalinity or calcium. It will raise you PH and needs to be combatted with PH down.
I personally use bleach for pool openings - it works great. I also monitor all my pool levels and use a combination of bleach, trichlor and cal hypo to maintain the water in a balanced condition. I have not found chlorine to be too expensive but I buy my pool chlorine from Leslies pool supplies and get a 50 lb cal hypo pail for about $70 and that will last me about a year and 1/2. Trichlor is great for when I go on vacation (I use a pentair 320 auto feeder for trichlor pucks) or need to boost the CYA in the pool and when the levels are up in CYA and calcium - I go to bleach. I tend to not use bleach because it has a short shelf life and I don't want to go to the store and buy it 3x a week (I am over stating this to make a point).
I say try it but remember there are all the water's parameters that you need to worry about. I think if I had a choice and had a built in pool I just may go for the salt water generator as it seems that it is fairly consistent and is super easy to use once the proper amount of salt is in the pool.
BTW, I use borax to raise the PH in my pool. It sounds like it's nuts but honestly the stuff that I learned there does work. I don't follow it to the "T" as I don't think using bleach is as inexpensive (or not much difference) as using the other forms of chlorine.
I hope this helps.
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In my pool I use a combination of liquid chlorine (double strength bleach) and trichlor. Â I do this to keep CYA levels in check.
A couple of the poolforum folks have infiltrated the poolspaforum. Â You can get a healthy dose of bleach talk there.
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All: Â Thanks again for all the info. Â In the last 15 yrs, I have never tested the CYA in the pool. Â I always heard that backwashing and partial fall draining would keep stabilizer where it needs to be.
Amazing what you can learn here.
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All: Thanks again for all the info. In the last 15 yrs, I have never tested the CYA in the pool. I always heard that backwashing and partial fall draining would keep stabilizer where it needs to be.
Amazing what you can learn here.
Me and you both. ;)
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After reading a lot of threads on poolforum.com, I ordered a Hayward Perflex EC65A filter. The more I read, the more I saw that DE filter owners didn't regret their choice. Now, on to rehab the rest of the pool.
Thanks again.
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I personally hate my DE filter! Changing over to a sand filter with zeobrite instead of sand- less back washing and filters down to 3 microns.
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Changing over to a sand filter with zeobrite instead of sand- less back washing and filters down to 3 microns. Â
I think this is the route I would go if I wasn't happy with my filter. Â There also seems to be issues with disposing of old DE.
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Tony, what is the problem with old DE? I flush mine into the ground and it seems to disapear after a rain. Is that a bad thing?
My neighbors switched to sand and after watching them backwash and haul 50 bags of sand, I will stick with my DE. Especially since I have never had problems with it and I have the routine down to an art.
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Tony, what is the problem with old DE? I flush mine into the ground and it seems to disapear after a rain. Is that a bad thing?
My neighbors switched to sand and after watching them backwash and haul 50 bags of sand, I will stick with my DE. Especially since I have never had problems with it and I have the routine down to an art.
50 bags of sand? Wha???? No way. :o
My above ground pool (10K gallon) takes 2-4 bags. (they are 50 lbs each) at a cost of $8.50 (I just checked the prices with my local dealer). It last 5-7 years.
The largest comercial sand filters I've seen take 700 pounds of sand, (which would be 15 bags). Most above ground pools take 150-200lbs of sand.
Sand is the easisest of the all the mediums to use, and very affordable.
DE is more efficent at trapping particulate matter, but requires more maintinece. How much DE do you use each year? how much does it cost?
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50 bags of sand...............50# bags of sand........BAH, what's the difference.
Drew, the difference is a TYPO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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50 bags of sand...............50# bags of sand........BAH, what's the difference.
Drew, the difference is a TYPO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
that's a pretty significant typo (and that's comming from the king of typos).
Plus, Bonnie NEVER makes a typo. :-/
;)
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Tony, what is the problem with old DE? I flush mine into the ground and it seems to disapear after a rain. Is that a bad thing?
My neighbors switched to sand and after watching them backwash and haul 50 bags of sand, I will stick with my DE. Especially since I have never had problems with it and I have the routine down to an art.
DE is classified as hazardous waste in some localities thus disposal becomes an issue in those localities (only when you get caught). Â Supposedly this is increasing, how much so I don't know so it may never be an issue where you live. Â Just something to be aware of. Â I do know that DE filters do the best job of filtering, followed by cartridges and then sand. Â Sand filters with new mediums such as zeobrite come close to DE filtration. Â Then there are also folks who add a little DE to their sand filters to increase efficiency.
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Tony, I looked up DE on line and I couldn't find anything like that. It looks like a natural substance that has multiple uses. As I said, once it rains, my DE is asorbed into the grass and you can't even tell it was there. Now I have to know why it would be considered hazardous waste because I am dumping it out near my well... :-/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth
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I was "warned" about DE on Doc's site a few years ago and now use a product called Aqual Pearl that mimicks DE but doesn't have the hazardous material (which I think is silica).
It's funny, DE has been around for years, apparently has been used for various reasons in the garden and is now a hazardous material ... I guess it's the next asbestos.
Dropping it onto the soil and letting it be absorbed (mixed) into the soil seems like not a big deal to me but I guess it harmed someone somewhere ... but other things go untouched!
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Drew...take a look at my neighbors pool and tell me if it needs
50 bags of sand..I, of course, mean to fill it in!!
(http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/7223/p5290112lr4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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I personally hate my DE filter! Â Changing over to a sand filter with zeobrite instead of sand- less back washing and filters down to 3 microns. Â
How often do you need to backwash? I do it about once a month and it takes about 15 minutes. This year I have a lot of "stuff" in the water when I opened and I already changed the DE once and will probably change it again this weekend but I am anticipating only once a month after that.
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Has anyone here know of anyone that has switched the sand filter to glass media
I have switched 3 friends for a trial and so far no problems with water clarity and backwash times have greatly improved.
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Drew...take a look at my neighbors pool and tell me if it needs
50 bags of sand..I, of course, mean to fill it in!!
(http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/7223/p5290112lr4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
I think this is a case for a DE filter. Yes it will clog up but it will clean it up faster than a sand filter. One of the reasons I went for DE was a story that a friend told me about their neighbors pool. The water was poor and the neighbor was trying to clean it up with a sand filter for days ... my friend lent him her DE filter and it cleared up in 24 hours. I sometimes wish I could hook it up to my spa ...
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I remember cleaning my fish tanks with DE filters years ago and it worked wonderfully (at least the fish thought so). Who better to decide than a fish? Â I blew down my DE last night in about 15 mins, as Vinny said. I think it is easy and my pool is always crystal clear with minimal chlorine.
My friend has actually been filtering that pool using a brand new sand filter for about 2 weeks. They have used gallons of bleach, a box of shock, 10 lbs of pH increaser, and algaecide..and who knows what else. The cover containing a winter's worth of leaves and debris fell into the pool when they opened. To top it off, it was never properly winterized. Â :P :P..Today they called for reinforcements..a pool company. I can't wait to hear what they said!
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Chris H, I see you're on , any tips for my neighbors?
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Here's a link on a MSDS sheet for DE.
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:Zo1umU4k79sJ:www.hasapool.com/msds/114.pdf+why+is+Diatomaceous+earth+considered+hazardous&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
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Here's a link for a pool forum. It apparently was started by some people on poolforum due to the owner not being around and the fear of it stop working.
http://www.troublefreepools.com/
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How often do you need to backwash? I do it about once a month and it takes about 15 minutes. This year I have a lot of "stuff" in the water  when I opened and I already changed the DE once and will probably change it again this weekend but I am anticipating only once a month after that.
haven't done the conversion yet, but hear backwashing is greatly reduced when using zeobrite. will let you know how it goes, changing over this weekend.
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Chris H, I see you're on , any tips for my neighbors?
Quite frankly, I have no idea what your neighbor needs. All you posted was a photo of a cloudy pool. I would need to know the chemical readings (Calcium, Alk, PH, Chlorine) and the type of filter (including model #) and the gallons of the pool before I could give any advice.
The first thing I would do is put in 3 pounds of Tri-Chlor Shock, 10 ounces of Poly-60 algaecide, and some flocculant in the skimmer. Make sure they are running the filter 24 hours, and backwashing, vacuming, and brushing regularly.
Sound random thoughts and responses from some previous posts.
I don't think I would do well on that poolforum.com site because I can't stand liquid shock because of the mess it involves. Nothing like a few pounds of Cal Hypo or Tri-Chlor to clear up a pool.
I have heard that the glass filter media can damage the sand filters over time.
I don't like cartridge filters either. Common sense, a Hotspring Vanguard has 150 square feet of filtration for 400 gallons. Most pool cartridge filters are under 100 square feet for pools with sometimes over 10,000 gallons. Do the math.
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I remember cleaning my fish tanks with DE filters years ago and it worked wonderfully (at least the fish thought so). Who better to decide than a fish? I blew down my DE last night in about 15 mins, as Vinny said. I think it is easy and my pool is always crystal clear with minimal chlorine.
My friend has actually been filtering that pool using a brand new sand filter for about 2 weeks. They have used gallons of bleach, a box of shock, 10 lbs of pH increaser, and algaecide..and who knows what else. The cover containing a winter's worth of leaves and debris fell into the pool when they opened. To top it off, it was never properly winterized. :P :P..Today they called for reinforcements..a pool company. I can't wait to hear what they said!
I can't imagine pool water getting that bad. Was it left unattened, uncovered and untreated for several months?
I would dump the water if looked like that. :P
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I'm with you Drew, but they wouldn't dump it. They didn't winterize the pool and when they pulled the winter cover off, all of the crud, leaves and debris went into the water. The picture is basically bleached sludge, leaves and funk. There is a swamp maple tree that hangs over the pool so probably 80% of the leaves that fell last fall are on the bottom of the pool.
The pool company that came yesterday suggested even more shock, and to let the debris settle to the bottom. My neighbor kept stirring it up, thinking the filter could pull it all out...but all they ended up with was clogged up filter media (sand).
On another note, Chris, I was thanking you when I uncovered my pool this year. The coping that holds that beaded liner in place (you gave me the link last year) worked great. In spite of all the ice we had, the liner stayed right where it belonged! ;)
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always winterize your pool...
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/GodlikeMoron/pool2.jpg)
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always winterize your pool...
Is this so you can ice skate on it? That must be so knarly cool to have your own skating rink in your backyard!