Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: pg_rider on September 12, 2006, 10:48:23 am
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Awaiting our Optima and I do feel like it's going to be a great tub, but one thing I really wish it had is 2-speed pumps. I think in most cases I'd prefer to use the low speed for a low-noise, gentle massage. Why would a manufacturer NOT use 2-speed pumps? When my pumps eventually go could they be replaced with a 2-speed version?
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Great question. We just purchased Optima and are awaiting delivery also.. and I've been wondering why only one-speed pumps as well. :)
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I have two 2-speed pumps on my spa, and we use the low setting at least 50% of the time. I personally wouldn't want a spa without them. Unless they are an option on an Optima, I'd be surprised if the controls would support adding them as a replacement (which should be a loooong way off). If you want two speed pumps, keep shopping!
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As an owner of a 2003 Optima, with a 2 speed pump, I'd say don't worry about it- you're missing nothing.
First of all, only 1 of the main pumps is two speed- the other one is one speed.
The two speed pump's only purpose seems to be for filtering.
I have a filtering system one generation removed from what you guys have on the newer Optimas.
I have a pleated filter, and attached to it is a smaller, disposable, microfilter.
The circ. pump, which runs 24/7 pulls water constantly thru the microfilter.
The microfilter is supposed to be tighter than the pleated filters.
The 2 speed pump uses the low speed to pull water thru the main pleated filter, presumably to get rid of bigger debris. This filter cycle can be set up to be whatever I want, up to 24/7, but mine is set for 30 minutes per time, four times per day.
The 2 speed pump powers one "jet group" which in my spa consists of 3 of the corner seats plus the 2 whirlpool jets. This pump can run this jet group on either speed, but on low the massage force is really low. I always run this pump on high, and adjust each jet down if I don't want the full blast.
I think when Sundance went with the current filter, all disposable, it did away with the need for the 2 speed pump.
So really, you're missing nothing.
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No need for them on the 880 Series Sundances.
Most of the time the "low" speed on a two speed pump is for filtration cycles. In the case of the 780 Series Sundance tubs the "low" speed is used to skim the surface of the tub(the Laing circ. pump doesn't draw enough to lower the wier door).
880 Series tubs have the high volume circ. pump that pulls enough water that the weir door drops for continuous skimming and filters over 50,000 gallons /day.
As far as getting a "light" massage, the jets on the Optima are infinately adjustable. You can turn the jet pressure down with the pumps on "high"'
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Exactly what I was trying to say, except that you did it much better!
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Certainly, some manufacturers use a two speed pump for filtering. Other brands seem to offer them to provide the option of sitting in gently moving water. While I certainly make use of the massage available with the pumps on high, I find the pumps on low very relaxing, and much more conducive to conversation. Having to turn down each jet to slow the flow would be more hassle than I would want.
Other than cost savings, is there another reason (e.g. longevity, repair history) that 2 speed pumps aren't used?
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Other than cost savings, is there another reason (e.g. longevity, repair history) that 2 speed pumps aren't used?
They cost more as you'd indicated and to some degree their longevity is a bit less (single speed motors tend to hold up better, not a major difference but you asked).
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I have a spa with 2 2-speed pumps, 1 1-speed pump and a 24 hr circ pump. My jets are all independently adjustable and I also have diverters between the 4 corner seats that can adjust the pressure from one seat compared to another.
I personally like the 2 speed pumps. I prefer a lighter massage while my girlfriend likes to peel her hide off as it were. To have to adjust each jet (each corner seat has at least six separate jets, one has 10) every time between my use and hers would be a real pain in the ass, especially since I can just punch a single button and get a perfect adjustment between high and low. At least the neck jets in 2 different seats both have their own diverter to control the pressure.
The only thing I don't like about my spa is that I can't run one pump at low speed, affecting two of the corner seats, while running the second pump at high speed for the other two corner seats. To not have built in this capability into this spa seemed remarkably dumb to me, and I have told the dealer AND the manufacturer that. Not that it does me any good now. :(
I wish my third pump was also 2 speed (it is the volcano jets and the foot jets in the dome in the center of the well).
So for a high end spa NOT to use 2 speed pumps also seems dumb to me and I probably will look for this capability in future spas. But that is just me. Your mileage may vary... ::)
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My two therapy pumps are variable speed. I absolutely love this feature.
I wet tested alot of tubs, and by far I like this feature the best from Artesian.
I can dial in my jet pressure just the way I like it, depending on my needs.
I'm surprised to see the Optima has only 1 speed pumps.
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As stated by those who actually own the Optima with the one 2 speed pump, the 2 speed pump is not really all that necessary for massage- it's possible to reduce the force of the massage by adjusting the jets- you get exactly the same massage.
You have essentially infinite adjustment at the jets, all the way down to shutting them off completely- thus negating the absolute need for the low speed.
And only 1 pump on the Optima was 2 speed- the other pump was one speed, and it controlled half of the jets, but again by using the jets and diverter valve you can reduce the massage affect down to next to nothing without the pump being slowed.
The point is that in the Optima's case the owners of the new ones won't have their jet action impacted by the absence of the one 2 speed pump.
Other spa brands/models I can's speak for- this is about the Optima specifically.
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My two therapy pumps are variable speed. I absolutely love this feature.
I wet tested alot of tubs, and by far I like this feature the best from Artesian.
I can dial in my jet pressure just the way I like it, depending on my needs.
I'm surprised to see the Optima has only 1 speed pumps.
Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.
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Good question regarding reliability of the pumps. I heard they were very reliable. But only time will tell.
I think they're made by GE. But I could be wrong.
Maybe Vinny knows.
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As stated by those who actually own the Optima with the one 2 speed pump, the 2 speed pump is not really all that necessary for massage
And as stated by those who actually own tubs with good two speed or variable systems ;), it is a very nice feature -- among our favorites! :)
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I heard they were very reliable.
Who told you that, a salesperson? ;) ;D
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Thanks for all the replies. All things being equal, I'd prefer 2-speed if only for the quieter operation. I realize I can get a softer massage by turning down the jets and/or diverter, but you're still going to have that pump running at it's max (with the associated noise). What got me thinking about it was after wet-testing a Vita with a 2-speed pump. On the low setting you could barely hear it -- very nice.
Sounds like everything's not perfect with 2-speed pumps though. Added cost and decreased reliablity would be a major bummer. Bottom line is I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over only having single-speed pumps... :)
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Nice one Reese, haha
I think I read it here, so it's quite possible it was a salesman.
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Sounds like everything's not perfect with 2-speed pumps though. Added cost and decreased reliablity would be a major bummer.
I wish I hadn't even commented on that. I didn't mean to imply 2-speed pumps were a quality issue. Their reliability should be fine, the difference is not major overall.
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My tub has 2-2speed pumps and a circ pump. We use the low speed more than 90% of the time. I wouldn't own a tub without the 2 speeds.
Rayman
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Its all about cost, 2 speed pumps add alot to the cost of the tub and if you times that cost times thousands of spas produced every year,it adds up quickly. Absolutely nothing to do with quality unless your using cheap pumps and motors. Makers such as Waterway and G.E have great success in building both 2 speed and single speed pumps. Then again remember Vico? Yikes we changed alot of both 2 speed and single speed back in the day.
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Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.
Tanstaafl
easy to do once tub is out of warranty
Lets see 2 variable frequency drives(weatherproof of course)
2 DC motors for above
1 weatherproof control panels
$10,000
When would you like me to start ;D
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My tub has 2-2speed pumps and a circ pump. We use the low speed more than 90% of the time. I wouldn't own a tub without the 2 speeds.
Rayman
If using the low speed as much as Rayman, another consideration would be electricity savings over a single speed with jets adjusted down/off. I would imagine the savings to be minimal but actual none-the-less.
As others have stated, the biggest difference would be in the decreased noise though most of the noise seems to come from jets rather than motors in my tub. I think this is true for all the tubs that mix air with water in the jet systems rather than through a separate blower system...correct? And then there's the added noise of the blower systems but that's another thread...
Would there be any extra wear on the motors/plumbing if most/all jets were adjusted down/off?
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Would there be any extra wear on the motors/plumbing if most/all jets were adjusted down/off?
Windsurfdog,
No, you can completely deadhead a centrifigal pump for short periods with no damage to the impellor. Long term deadheading could damage the mechanical seal
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I have a cameo. The seat with the one speed pump is way to powerful. I wish they would of made another seat using the pump or send it to the foot massage as it just does not have enough power.
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Would there be any extra wear on the motors/plumbing if most/all jets were adjusted down/off?
Windsurfdog,
No, you can completely deadhead a centrifigal pump for short periods with no damage to the impellor. Long term deadheading could damage the mechanical seal
Thanks for the reply, Canman. Do you think extended deadheading could encourage plumbing leaks in well constructed systems? Certainly I would think that systems where qualitly control (especially at glued fittings) is dubious that the extra pressure may have its effects.
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What ever you do , DONT dead head on a 1997 Sundance.
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Certainly I would think that systems where qualitly control (especially at glued fittings) is dubious that the extra pressure may have its effects.
Windsurfdog
Good point, I missed that one. Yes, it probably would cause some problems in the piping if done for a long time or repetitively
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Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.
Tanstaafl
easy to do once tub is out of warranty
Lets see 2 variable frequency drives(weatherproof of course)
2 DC motors for above
1 weatherproof control panels
$10,000
When would you like me to start ;D
Will have to get back to you on that one. Still have a few years left on the warranty! ;)
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You don't need 2-speed pumps for the jet pressure adjustments as you use diverters for that. My Jacuzzi has one 2-speed and one single speed. There is little or no theraputic value in the 2-speed at the lowest speed (no matter the diverter settings).
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You don't need 2-speed pumps for the jet pressure adjustments as you use diverters for that. My Jacuzzi has one 2-speed and one single speed. There is little or no theraputic value in the 2-speed at the lowest speed (no matter the diverter settings).
I completely agree. Any value to the two speed pump on low is now achieved with the high flow circ pump.
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Exactly what I'm saying. On the Optima, the low speed of the one 2 speed pump isn't that great for massage. For the Optima. Other spas that have multiple speed pumps might be different.
The 2 speed pump isn't there for massage, it for filtering. Otherwise the second large pump, which is ONLY one speed, would be two speed as well. And that second pump controls half the jets in the spa, including the massive therapy throne seat and all the foot jets.
The original posters asked about the Optima no longer having one of the 2 big pumps be two speed- they are not because they changed the filtering. You won't miss a thing with the two single speed pumps- you can get a gentle massage.
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With all due respect to the Optima experts and ndabunka, the original question wasn't about whether it was neeed for filtration, or the quality of therapy. It was about low-speed, low-noise, gentle massage, and why a manufacturer would not include 2 speed pumps. It appears clear that Optima users feel it isn't necessary because they either prefer theraputic pressures or are satisfied with the control that adjustable jets and diverters provide, while most of the rest that have them think they are a great thing. The obvious reason that Sundance didn't include them is that most buyers of an Optima don't care, and there is no reason to add extra cost. I think pg_rider and patty got the answers they were looking for. It is also clear that neither the Optima, or the two-speed camp, are going to convince the other by restating the same positions. Can we move on?
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Some 2 speed pumps are extremely reliable. I have customers with 20 year old 2-speed pumps that are still working fine. 56 frame motors tend to be higher quality and longer lasting than the 48 frame motors used in most spas (higher quality bearings, runs cooler, lasts longer).
2-speed pumps cost more and the controls are more expensive to run them. Rather than on / off you need low / high / off controls. You can't replace the single speed pump in your existing spa with a 2-speed because the controls are just on / off.
If your spa doesn't have 2-speed pumps it is because the manufacturer didn't think you needed to be able to choose low speed, and didn't want to spend the extra money to give you that choice.
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How do you tell how many frames your pumps are? Are Sundance Optima pumps 48 frame?
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The identification sticker on the pump will show the frame (probably abbreviated FR).
The 48 frame motors are slightly smaller diameter than 56 frame motors and have inferior bearings to those in 56 frame motors. Often, the other components in the motors are also top quality in 56 frame and not so much in 48 frame.
I am not sure which Sundance is using these days, there are plenty of people on the forum that can tell you. In 2001 when I had Sundance spas in the store they were all 48 frame.
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Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.
Tanstaafl
easy to do once tub is out of warranty
Lets see 2 variable frequency drives(weatherproof of course)
2 DC motors for above
1 weatherproof control panels
$10,000
When would you like me to start ;D
I assume you are talking about brushless DC motors? Do you know what kind of motors are used in the spa with the variable speed pump?
Regards,
Altazi
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How do you tell how many frames your pumps are? Are Sundance Optima pumps 48 frame?
They are 56 frame now.
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You don't need 2-speed pumps for the jet pressure adjustments as you use diverters for that. My Jacuzzi has one 2-speed and one single speed. There is little or no theraputic value in the 2-speed at the lowest speed (no matter the diverter settings).
I completely agree. Any value to the two speed pump on low is now achieved with the high flow circ pump.
And I completely disagree. I can have strong therpeutic jets in all four seats at the same time or I can have a nice quiet gentle massage in all 4 seats at the push of a button. No need to screw around trying to set diverters leaving one seat strong and one seat off or at low pressure. Unless I want it that way because if I want to mess around with the diverters or set individual jets to a certain pressure independent of other jets in the same chair I can do that too in my spa.
And I have a separate circ pump also so the speed of my main pumps is not relevant to the circulation.
It is an issue of convenience and flexibility. Any high end, high cost spa ought to be trying to be maximizing both in my opinion, at least if they are going to get my business, or my recommendation to others, in the future. And a 2-speed (or better yet variable speed!) pump is another tool that provides great convenience and flexibility.
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...I think pg_rider and patty got the answers they were looking for. It is also clear that neither the Optima, or the two-speed camp, are going to convince the other by restating the same positions. Can we move on?
yup, i'm good on this one! I think we'll be fine using a combination of diverter valve and adjusting indivudual jet flow. :)
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Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.
Tanstaafl
easy to do once tub is out of warranty
Lets see 2 variable frequency drives(weatherproof of course)
2 DC motors for above
1 weatherproof control panels
$10,000
When would you like me to start ;D
I assume you are talking about brushless DC motors? Do you know what kind of motors are used in the spa with the variable speed pump?
Regards,
Altazi
naaaaaaaaaaaa, you can do it with AC motors much cheaper. All you need is a contraption to adjust the hertz (I can't remember what it's called). I've got two machines here with them and I can literally adjust the motor speed by a couple of RPM's. One big problem though, as the motor's RPM's are reduced, the motor runs hotter. So you need to come up with some added cooling measures. Not a big deal, I would think you could rig up some type of water cooling system using the spa water. We just run an air hose from the compressor into the motor
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You don't need 2-speed pumps for the jet pressure adjustments as you use diverters for that. My Jacuzzi has one 2-speed and one single speed. There is little or no theraputic value in the 2-speed at the lowest speed (no matter the diverter settings).
I completely agree. Any value to the two speed pump on low is now achieved with the high flow circ pump.
And I completely disagree. I can have strong therpeutic jets in all four seats at the same time or I can have a nice quiet gentle massage in all 4 seats at the push of a button. No need to screw around trying to set diverters leaving one seat strong and one seat off or at low pressure. Unless I want it that way because if I want to mess around with the diverters or set individual jets to a certain pressure independent of other jets in the same chair I can do that too in my spa.
And I have a separate circ pump also so the speed of my main pumps is not relevant to the circulation.
It is an issue of convenience and flexibility. Any high end, high cost spa ought to be trying to be maximizing both in my opinion, at least if they are going to get my business, or my recommendation to others, in the future. And a 2-speed (or better yet variable speed!) pump is another tool that provides great convenience and flexibility.
Thank you for proving my point..Price. You can get "isolated umps in every seat" but you have to "pay for it". If I remember the threads correctly, you paid about $4,500 more for your tub than I did. To many of use, those dollars are better specnt elsewhere. My diverters work just fine for us and provide everythign we need. You want the luxury of pressing a button in each seat (even though most of those other seats aren't full and that feature is going unused 90% of the time). Thanks OK as you value it. My point was that for the MAJORITY of value-minded buyers (those spending under $6,500 for a nice sized, name brand tub, diverter's work "just fine". My tub usually only has one (myself) or two people in it. Only occasionally is the whole family in it.
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Now there is an idea that I think I would like! Variable speed would be a nice option as long as the pumps are reliable.
Tanstaafl
easy to do once tub is out of warranty
Lets see 2 variable frequency drives(weatherproof of course)
2 DC motors for above
1 weatherproof control panels
$10,000
When would you like me to start ;D
I assume you are talking about brushless DC motors? Do you know what kind of motors are used in the spa with the variable speed pump?
Regards,
Altazi
naaaaaaaaaaaa, you can do it with AC motors much cheaper. All you need is a contraption to adjust the hertz (I can't remember what it's called). I've got two machines here with them and I can literally adjust the motor speed by a couple of RPM's. One big problem though, as the motor's RPM's are reduced, the motor runs hotter. So you need to come up with some added cooling measures. Not a big deal, I would think you could rig up some type of water cooling system using the spa water. We just run an air hose from the compressor into the motor
OH NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! :o :o :o
Doc,
Are we talking about redesigning a spa and trying to take on the evil empire here
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Here's another one where we can all agree to disagree. It looks like those that have the option of 2 speed pumps like having the option available and take advantage of it where those that do not have the option feel it is superfluous. I guess it's up to each to decide. Certainly we can throw it into the non-deal breaker category along with FF/TP, etc. etc...
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You don't need 2-speed pumps for the jet pressure adjustments as you use diverters for that. My Jacuzzi has one 2-speed and one single speed. There is little or no theraputic value in the 2-speed at the lowest speed (no matter the diverter settings).
I completely agree. Any value to the two speed pump on low is now achieved with the high flow circ pump.
And I completely disagree. I can have strong therpeutic jets in all four seats at the same time or I can have a nice quiet gentle massage in all 4 seats at the push of a button. No need to screw around trying to set diverters leaving one seat strong and one seat off or at low pressure. Unless I want it that way because if I want to mess around with the diverters or set individual jets to a certain pressure independent of other jets in the same chair I can do that too in my spa.
And I have a separate circ pump also so the speed of my main pumps is not relevant to the circulation.
It is an issue of convenience and flexibility. Any high end, high cost spa ought to be trying to be maximizing both in my opinion, at least if they are going to get my business, or my recommendation to others, in the future. And a 2-speed (or better yet variable speed!) pump is another tool that provides great convenience and flexibility.
Thank you for proving my point..Price. You can get "isolated umps in every seat" but you have to "pay for it". If I remember the threads correctly, you paid about $4,500 more for your tub than I did. To many of use, those dollars are better specnt elsewhere. My diverters work just fine for us and provide everythign we need. You want the luxury of pressing a button in each seat (even though most of those other seats aren't full and that feature is going unused 90% of the time). Thanks OK as you value it. My point was that for the MAJORITY of value-minded buyers (those spending under $6,500 for a nice sized, name brand tub, diverter's work "just fine". My tub usually only has one (myself) or two people in it. Only occasionally is the whole family in it.
And I certainly agree. If price is a big concern, and I can certainly understand that it can be for many people, then you don't need to have 2 speed pumps. Or stereo's or TV's or LED lights or any number of "extra's" that some spas can offer.
Price was a concern for me as well, but it also was balanced by how I wanted to use the tub and what I valued in paying more for. I wanted a fairly large tub and that usually costs more for a good quality tub. I suspect that it is unlikely that someone could get a tub of a similar size as mine for half the cost and still get a good quality name brand tub. But you can certainly get a smaller tub of good quality for less than mine. I just happened to place a high value on it being of good size. We all have to make those choices. I opted not to get a stereo for instance. Others value the stereo and choose to pay for it.
But if one does choose to get a higher end, higher cost spa it would seem reasonable to expect an increase in convenience and flexibility. Multi speed pumps can be one element that provides that and will be one of the determining factors I will look at in the future should I again be in the market for a spa, or offering a recommendation to others, and choose to go with a more expensive model.
I would regard the Sundance Optima as a "higher end, higher cost" tub. As such it has many positive features. The lack of multispeed pumps is a check mark in the negative column (for me, at least) and would be a significant component in a decision to buy a tub. Clearly it is not an issue for other owners of the Optima and that is fine, too.
What the cut off is for "higher end, higher cost" is of course an entirely separate discussion! ;)
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I have a two speed pump on my Optima and yes, it is nice to have the low speed on if you do not want therapy and just want some water moving. The new Optimas get the same (or even better) result with the new high flow pump which can be diverted through the waterfall feature if you like. I beleive the new circ pump moves more water than the old two speed pump on low. All the jets in both the newer and older style Optimas can be infinitely adjustable for whatever therapy you desire.
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But what do YOU know, you just own one! ;)
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This thread can also go in another direction, why are most manufactures going to higher and higher hp pumps? Increasing pressure coming out of the jets so that it is allmost uncomfortable. I have wet tested newer spas with high hp pumps and was much more comfortable in my old late 80's model that had a one hp, dual speed pump and just a few high flow jets.
Any coments? I feel water flow around a body is much more relaxing than being beat to death.
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, why are most manufactures going to higher and higher hp pumps? Increasing pressure coming out of the jets so that it is allmost uncomfortable. .
You won't find that with most "legitimate" manufacturers.
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It's very subjective- no spa can deliver what everyone wants. Some may just love getting "blasted", others like you, don't really like it. With me it varies. Sometimes I just sit in the water without any pumps running.
Some like bubblers, others can't see the point. Some insist on 104 degree water, some can't stand it that high and like it a few degrees cooler. Others yet want to go above 104.
None of it is wrong- for yourself.