Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: hottbpete on August 28, 2006, 05:27:41 pm
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I am getting realyy confused and need some help!! :-[
Some spa reps say that foam insualtion throughout the spa is the best....ie Jacuzzi and Caldera....then you speak to Arctic and they tell you that they do not use foam. That they use a system that uses an air pocket.
Can anyone give me some ideas?
Thanks
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I am getting realyy confused and need some help!! :-[
Some spa reps say that foam insualtion throughout the spa is the best....ie Jacuzzi and Caldera....then you speak to Arctic and they tell you that they do not use foam. That they use a system that uses an air pocket.
Can anyone give me some ideas?
Thanks
You should only be confused if they DIDN'T each preach about their own method being the way to go. Stick with a reputable company and you can put the insualtion question in your back pocket and move on to more pressing questions. Fit/feel of the spa (wet testing is wise), warranty, dealer reputation, overall quality and workmanship, cost, appearance and even a simple feeling of trust are all important.
Arctic, Caldera and Jacuzzi are all reputable brands.
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Here we go again!
hottbpete,
This is an old discussion and there are proponents on both sides of the fence, each one telling you that one or the other is the best way to insulate. If you want to see discussions on this, try the "Beating a Dead Horse" forum.
Or you can go directly to http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1130608019
My 2¢ - they both work. Don't worry about it. If you buy a good quality tub, it will be well insulated whichever method is used.
Phil
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Check out the beating a dead horse section on this site
This has been gone over and over and over and over and over and over etc. etc. etc.(I think you can get the picture)
Basically there is no right answer, Coke vs. Pepsi
Chevy vs. Ford
Titelist vs. Nike
etc. etc. etc.
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Basically there is no right answer, Coke vs. Pepsi
Chevy vs. Ford
Titelist vs. Nike
etc. etc. etc.
Pepsi, Chevy and Titlist!!!
[smiley=cool.gif]
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Spatech
Did I spell the golf ball name wrong or did you :-[
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FORD, Captain n coke ;D
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BMW vodka seadoo
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This is turning into a much better debate then FF vs TP ;D
Ford, Southern Manhatens and Nike
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Where is the only place you see an air pocket (besides some spas) for insulation? The only one I can think of is a window. I guess the foam would ruin the view. That should tell you something.
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Dual pane windows are the most ridiculous analogy possible to use. A single sheet of glass is something like R-1. Dual panes are something like R-4. So you get double the insulation value of just the glass. What's the insulation value of a wall? More than R-12. R-12 is just the insulation (minimum) and doesn't take into consideration siding or sheet rock.
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The best thing about full foam is that it holds all the plumbing in place. Fill a 2" line with water and its heavy. You can not expect a glue joint to hold it for 10 years or more.
The best thing about dead air insulation is that it keeps coffee warm in your thermas. I think it is impossible to have dead air in a spa cabinet.
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The best thing about dead air insulation is that it keeps coffee warm in your thermas. I think it is impossible to have dead air in a spa cabinet.
Actually, a thermos is more than an air space.......... no, it almost the opposite. It's a space evacuated of any air. A vacuum. Conductivity and convection is the the method of the majority of heat loss and heat can neither conduct nor convect across a vacuum. It can though radiate across a vacuum.......
Oh, by the way, the definition of a "dead air space" is less that 1/2". Any greater and it's NOT "dead" as convection will occur.
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Unarguably Ford 'Mustang GT', Southern 'Comfort' and barefoot.
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Let's see......I'm going with Ford, Bourbon, Coke, Callaway & "Tastes Great"
:)
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The best thing about full foam is that it holds all the plumbing in place. Fill a 2" line with water and its heavy. You can not expect a glue joint to hold it for 10 years or more.
The best thing about dead air insulation is that it keeps coffee warm in your thermas. I think it is impossible to have dead air in a spa cabinet.
Nope. A thermos is a vacuum.
Thermal pane windows are filled with gas and multple panes of glass are coated to reflect heat.
The air space in a Theramal Tub is heated from the heat off the pumps, and if the air space is equal to or greater than the water temp, no heat loss occurs (as heat transfers from hot to cold) from the water to the air space. The trick with a successful TP is maintaining the temperature in the cabinet however, no system is perfect.
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Dual pane windows are the most ridiculous analogy possible to use. A single sheet of glass is something like R-1. Dual panes are something like R-4. So you get double the insulation value of just the glass. What's the insulation value of a wall? More than R-12. R-12 is just the insulation (minimum) and doesn't take into consideration siding or sheet rock.
That was the point. ;)
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(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/d84f1a05.jpg)
T.P. Cooter the Cooter sez:
"Ya'lls is ignurnt if'n you don't think air beez the best insoolator!!! Fool Foam is jest a cheeper way to build a hot tub. De Thermal Pain beez much more labor intensitive. Lookie here....."
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/7075a3ec.jpg)
"Yooz got to cut all de insoolatin' reflective panels in a percise manner to create an airtight seal 'round de perimeteeter. Dat costests munny! Any ol' peckerwood can spray foam, which is de Debil's seed."
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The best thing about full foam is that it holds all the plumbing in place. Fill a 2" line with water and its heavy. You can not expect a glue joint to hold it for 10 years or more.
The best thing about dead air insulation is that it keeps coffee warm in your thermas. I think it is impossible to have dead air in a spa cabinet.
Funny thing that popped into my head when I was shopping for my hot tub a few weeks ago.. talking to the local arctic salesperson, his pitch actually included how when he goes to deliver the hot tub and "it starts to leak because the jets came loose from moving it from the factory to the store then to the customer" the open inside allows you to easily get in and tighten the jets back up.
I sure hope my tiger river doesnt leak from jets coming loose during transportation when it gets delivered..
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That's rather interesting. I don't think I've EVER heard of jets coming lose during transportation. Unions at the equipment yes, but never, what is supposed to be a sealed fitting.....
Anyone here own an inground swimming pool? Their plumbing is buried in dirt, frequently under concrete. Must be a nightmare to fix a leak. How often have you had a leak and how difficult was it to repair?
The best thing about full foam is that it holds all the plumbing in place. Fill a 2" line with water and its heavy. You can not expect a glue joint to hold it for 10 years or more.
The best thing about dead air insulation is that it keeps coffee warm in your thermas. I think it is impossible to have dead air in a spa cabinet.
Funny thing that popped into my head when I was shopping for my hot tub a few weeks ago.. talking to the local arctic salesperson, his pitch actually included how when he goes to deliver the hot tub and "it starts to leak because the jets came loose from moving it from the factory to the store then to the customer" the open inside allows you to easily get in and tighten the jets back up.
I sure hope my tiger river doesnt leak from jets coming loose during transportation when it gets delivered..
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That's rather interesting. I don't think I've EVER heard of jets coming lose during transportation. Unions at the equipment yes, but never, what is supposed to be a sealed fitting.....
Anyone here own an inground swimming pool? Their plumbing is buried in dirt, frequently under concrete. Must be a nightmare to fix a leak. How often have you had a leak and how difficult was it to repair?
The best thing about full foam is that it holds all the plumbing in place. Fill a 2" line with water and its heavy. You can not expect a glue joint to hold it for 10 years or more.
The best thing about dead air insulation is that it keeps coffee warm in your thermas. I think it is impossible to have dead air in a spa cabinet.
Funny thing that popped into my head when I was shopping for my hot tub a few weeks ago.. talking to the local arctic salesperson, his pitch actually included how when he goes to deliver the hot tub and "it starts to leak because the jets came loose from moving it from the factory to the store then to the customer" the open inside allows you to easily get in and tighten the jets back up.
I sure hope my tiger river doesnt leak from jets coming loose during transportation when it gets delivered..
My dad had to fix a leak in his inground pool plumbing At the time he had the pool for at least 20 years old. . Yes, it's a pain to cut through and then patch the cement. He had a hard time finding a tech to do it (it was July, the peak of pool season) and he paid through the nose for it. At 25 years he replaced the liner. Now, that was exspensive.
Don't worry about your Tiger River.
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That's rather interesting. I don't think I've EVER heard of jets coming lose during transportation. Unions at the equipment yes, but never, what is supposed to be a sealed fitting.....
Anyone here own an inground swimming pool? Their plumbing is buried in dirt, frequently under concrete. Must be a nightmare to fix a leak. How often have you had a leak and how difficult was it to repair?
The best thing about full foam is that it holds all the plumbing in place. Fill a 2" line with water and its heavy. You can not expect a glue joint to hold it for 10 years or more.
The best thing about dead air insulation is that it keeps coffee warm in your thermas. I think it is impossible to have dead air in a spa cabinet.
Funny thing that popped into my head when I was shopping for my hot tub a few weeks ago.. talking to the local arctic salesperson, his pitch actually included how when he goes to deliver the hot tub and "it starts to leak because the jets came loose from moving it from the factory to the store then to the customer" the open inside allows you to easily get in and tighten the jets back up.
I sure hope my tiger river doesnt leak from jets coming loose during transportation when it gets delivered..
My dad had to fix a leak in his inground pool plumbing At the time he had the pool for at least 20 years old. . Yes, it's a pain to cut through and then patch the cement. He had a hard time finding a tech to do it (it was July, the peak of pool season) and he paid through the nose for it. At 25 years he replaced the liner. Now, that was exspensive.
Don't worry about your Tiger River.
ouch..
Im not worried about my new tub, I was kinda jokin around with that comment.. when a salesperson tells you as part of his pitch that the lack of insulation is good because the jets might leak and it is easier to fix, I have to laugh.. This guy claimed he was the biggest arctic dealer in north dakota and montana.. Oh, and the other part of the pitch I particularly found amusing was when he said that delivery was easy.. he would haul it to my house and all I needed was a couple friends with strong backs and a six pack of beer and it woud be easy to set up. I had to fight the urge not to run when I left that place.
I have every confidence in the HotSpring dealer I purchased the Tiger River from. Now if I can just get the fence guys to come put up the fence so that I can get the concrete guy to pour the slab so I can USE my new hottub.. :-/
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Anyone have the link from the state of California and energy consumption codes to be written? It clearly states that in order to pass their upcoming energy requirements spas will have to 1. Insulate better (more foam) 2. Spec in better covers with more foam density, better fit etc. 3. Use more energy efficient pumps.
Basic summary of 17 page document.
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Where is the only place you see an air pocket (besides some spas) for insulation? The only one I can think of is a window. I guess the foam would ruin the view. That should tell you something.
Congrats! You have successfully used common sense in this debate.
Some more info for the "dead air" proponents
Up to 4" of air = R value of 1
sprayed in foam = R value of 6.25 PER INCH
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There has to be no transfer of air through dead air space in order for it to insulate. A draft blows through the air space and any benefit is gone. Can a spa cabinet be completely sealed? When an insulated window starts leaking air you replace it.
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Seems this poor horse will never die......
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Convection also defeats any insulation qualities of "dead air space", and and pocket of air over 1/2" will have convection currents.
Spas though, aren't basing this on dead air space. Rather they're claiming that heat that would normally be wasted is being used to heat the air space to a temperature above the temp of the spa.
There has to be no transfer of air through dead air space in order for it to insulate. A draft blows through the air space and any benefit is gone. Can a spa cabinet be completely sealed? When an insulated window starts leaking air you replace it.
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The same guy that pitched the whole air space insulation thing on the arctics also told me that if it was fully insulated then when the ground was cold it would make the insulation cold and the hot water in the plumbing would have to heat the insulation as well as the tub.. I suppose if I had not taken 2 years of physics at the university I might actually believe that..
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Convection also defeats any insulation qualities of "dead air space", and and pocket of air over 1/2" will have convection currents.
Spas though, aren't basing this on dead air space. Rather they're claiming that heat that would normally be wasted is being used to heat the air space to a temperature above the temp of the spa.
For me it's the 16-20 hours of every single day that the heat source required to make the insulation method work, is gone?? But during the 4-8 hours a day the heat source is active the insulation method used works good enough to make it energy competitive with a fully foamed tub....cool.
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The same guy that pitched the whole air space insulation thing on the arctics also told me that if it was fully insulated then when the ground was cold it would make the insulation cold and the hot water in the plumbing would have to heat the insulation as well as the tub.. I suppose if I had not taken 2 years of physics at the university I might actually believe that..
Ouch! The Coke that just sprayed out of my nose hurt! I'm still laughing. That has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in this debate. Glad you had Physics so you didn't have to believe that.
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The same guy that pitched the whole air space insulation thing on the arctics also told me that if it was fully insulated then when the ground was cold it would make the insulation cold and the hot water in the plumbing would have to heat the insulation as well as the tub.. I suppose if I had not taken 2 years of physics at the university I might actually believe that..
Could I ask what dealer this was and where are you located?
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Whoever was trying to sell this Arctic spa didn't seem to even understand the system. I don't sell them, have never sold them, and I think I have only seen them at shows, if that.
But I 'get' what they are trying to do: it is a hybrid system. No, they don't call it that. I think they want to have that 'unique' system which all tub makers long to offer, but really it is a FF spa with an air gap just around the side of the shell.
Look at this pic:
(http://www.arcticspas.com/images/advantages/heatlock.jpg)
That is a LOT of foam! I bet the R value is close to that of any other FF spa. We are not talking about a thin spritz of foam inside the cabinet: they really lay it in there all the way across the bottom, all the way up the sides, and even into the top rail are.
Yes, they leave the air space, which in this ONE brand I think might actually be able to be sealed and stay that way, since the open area is completely enveloped in a heavy, thick foam barrier.
I don't happen to like the fact that the plumbing is not supported by anything but the jet fittings, and they have gone to a rather heavy hose and fitting arrangement which I suspect puts more stress on the jet bodies - but we're looking at the insulation.
(http://www.arcticspas.com/images/advantages/hose.jpg)
Thoughts?
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The same guy that pitched the whole air space insulation thing on the arctics also told me that if it was fully insulated then when the ground was cold it would make the insulation cold and the hot water in the plumbing would have to heat the insulation as well as the tub.. I suppose if I had not taken 2 years of physics at the university I might actually believe that..
Could I ask what dealer this was and where are you located?
I threw out his card, but he is supposed to have a shop here in town, although I had never heard of it. I am in Billings, MT, and he said he was the biggest dealer in north dakota. I talked to him at the state fair where he had everything set up..
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May I ask, was this the Montana State fair or North Dakota State fair.
I'm a North Dakota spa dealer and didn't know that their was an Arctic dealer in the state so I don't think he's the biggest dealer in the state.
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May I ask, was this the Montana State fair or North Dakota State fair.
I'm a North Dakota spa dealer and didn't know that their was an Arctic dealer in the state so I don't think he's the biggest dealer in the state.
Montana State Fair in Billings. I seriously doubted anything this guy said, but he did mention that he sold some 40 tubs at his state fair in ND..
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May I ask, was this the Montana State fair or North Dakota State fair.
I'm a North Dakota spa dealer and didn't know that their was an Arctic dealer in the state so I don't think he's the biggest dealer in the state.
Montana State Fair in Billings. I seriously doubted anything this guy said, but he did mention that he sold some 40 tubs at his state fair in ND..
Our Customer Service Department tells me that we have no Arctic dealer in North Dakota. I will continue to investigate in order to identify this dealer.
Tom G
Arctic Spas
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I went to 3 spa companies yesterday, Arctic was on of them The sales guy told me that they use a layered "fiberglass" underneath the acrylic skin and they are the only ones that use this. This is the reason they do not need the insulation up against the tub. It strong enough. Made sense! Then they have about 4 inches of insulation thatis on the sides of the tubs. R-39 value I think he said.
The one issue I really had with Arctic was that they had all wood tubs. No "fake wood" They said that they never sold anything but the real wood. I am not sure I want to stain the Hot Tub every year.
By the way
Select, Absolute and convertibles
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R-39 at 4" thick, of insulation? What the heck they insulating it with? Ceramic insulation? that stuff's like $50 a square inch! (this post is sarcasm, and by telling you so, I hope you get the point)
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I went to 3 spa companies yesterday, Arctic was one of them The sales guy told me that they use a layered "fiberglass" underneath the acrylic skin and they are the only ones that use this. This is the reason they do not need the insulation up against the tub. It strong enough. Made sense! Then they have about 4 inches of insulation thatis on the sides of the tubs. R-39 value I think he said.
The one issue I really had with Arctic was that they had all wood tubs. No "fake wood" They said that they never sold anything but the real wood. I am not sure I want to stain the Hot Tub every year.
Arctic Spas is not the only company that uses hand-rolled fiberglass bonded to acrylic. However, as far as I know, we do make the industry's only self-supporting fiberglass shell: no wood, steel, or foam is required for further support.
There may have been some confusion between the cover and the cabinet insulation.
Arctic specifies 3" nominal of polyurethane insulation sprayed on the floor, the inside of the cabinet, and the underside of the shell where it meets the cabinet (this latter insulation also secures hoses where necessary). A typical figure for sprayed polyurethane is R8 per inch, which would give an R-value of this insulation of around R25.
The 5/4 cover could have an R value of as high as R40 at the thickest section and R32 at the thinnest section, for an average of about R36.
Tom G.
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Arctic specifies 3" nominal of polyurethane insulation sprayed on the floor, the inside of the cabinet, and the underside of the shell where it meets the cabinet (this latter insulation also secures hoses where necessary). A typical figure for sprayed polyurethane is R8 per inch, which would give an R-value of this insulation of around R25.
The 5/4 cover could have an R value of as high as R40 at the thickest section and R32 at the thinnest section, for an average of about R36.
Tom G.
Tom, I'm a little suspect of your numbers. PU foam at 2# density has an R value of 6.8 to 7.14. As the density drops, so does the R value. Interestingly, as the density goes up, the R value also drops.
At least according to the following;
http://www.uaf.edu/coop-ext/publications/freepubs/EEM-04756.pdf
Also, I believe you use Extruded, rather than expanded polystyrene on your covers? My recollection, and at the moment I'm too lazy to look it up, the R-value is somewhere between R-5 and R-7 per inch, not R-8........
Ok. so I looked it up...... R-5
http://www.coloradoenergy.org/procorner/stuff/r-values.htm
http://www.roofhelp.com/Rvalue.htm
http://www.octaform.com/tech_rvalues_xps.html
www.owenscorning.com/worldwide/admin/tempupload/pdf.pdf.OCPinkExtrudedPolystyreneInsulation.pdf