Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Vinny on September 01, 2006, 09:08:34 am
-
What constitutes "hard water"? I know it's the calcium quantity in the water but at what PPM does it become considered hard? Are there other factors?
I believe I have soft water coming out of the tap and I have to add calcium to my tub to get it to the proper range. Taylor recommends 150 to 400 PPM of calcium in the water and is the higher reading hard? And I have read people here with 500 or more PPM and they are considered hard.
I'm asking for my own knowledge (I know I don't have a problem) but it may be helpful to people who use chems in their tub that don't really need it because their not at the hardness range to use them.
Thanks!
-
What constitutes "hard water"?
I would say it is water that doesn't need viagra... ::)
-
What constitutes "hard water"?
I would say it is water that doesn't need viagra... ::)
The problem is the older the water gets the more help it needs to function properly ... I'm sure it wishes it was 20 day old water vs 3 month old water! ;)
-
I think we have soft water also, but have not checked it.
What problems will soft water cause?
What is used to harden it (other than Viagra)?
I'm a believer in the less chemicals the better off?? :-X
Orangepeel
-
The test kit that I use notes that the calcium hardness is ok at 250, and too high if it is above that. I have noticed that different tests can have a slightly different version of what is high or not but I recommend 250 for calcium hardness.
oh, and 20 year old water is great as long as it's been taken care of. ;)
-
Calcium Hardness - The amount of dissolved calcium in the water. Low residuals can cause etching and corrosion in pools, while high residuals can cause scale buildup and cloudy water.
Calcium Hardness is important to balance in a spa if Spa Sentry is not being used. Low hardness can corrode the heater and damage the spa surface, as well as contribute to excessive foaming. High hardness can cause scale buildup and cloudy water. The higher water temperature of a spa makes it more difficult for calcium to stay in solution, so it is recommended that Stain and Scale Control be used weekly to prevent any scale buildup.
-
Calcium Hardness - The amount of dissolved calcium in the water. Low residuals can cause etching and corrosion in pools, while high residuals can cause scale buildup and cloudy water.
Calcium Hardness is important to balance in a spa if Spa Sentry is not being used. Low hardness can corrode the heater and damage the spa surface, as well as contribute to excessive foaming. High hardness can cause scale buildup and cloudy water. The higher water temperature of a spa makes it more difficult for calcium to stay in solution, so it is recommended that Stain and Scale Control be used weekly to prevent any scale buildup.
OK, now that we had a generalization, I'm looking for numbers and such. And what the heck is a Spa Sentry?
I know what low and high calcium hardness can do but I believe newbies are sometimes misled. To say you need this or that in a statement is BOGUS IMO. I'm not the most knowledgeable person in this area but I would hardly think that a person with a calcium reading of 250 PPM is at risk of calcium precipitating (spelling ?) out from the water if all the other water parameters are correct.
And as orangepeel said, he said he thinks he has soft water ... NUMBERS, WE NEED NUMBERS!!! ;D
OH, BTW orangepeel, you use calcium increaser to raise the hardness to the proper level.
-
Spa Sentry from Bioguard. Best spa product ever made. A phospherous buffer that controls Ph better than TA
-
Spa Sentry from Bioguard. Best spa product ever made. A phospherous buffer that controls Ph better than TA
So if it controls PH then what does that have to do with hardness other than when water is too hard (AND AT WHAT NUMBER WOULD THAT BE??) that a high PH (or is that low) can precipitate calcium out.
AND what makes it "THE BEST"! Or is just your personal opinion And how much does it cost? I can get 2 lbs of baking soda for $0.79, so it better be pretty darn good! :D
-
Spa sentrey precipitates the calcium out of the water to 0 ppm upon application. Then the buffers automatically adjust PH. The ph is always 7.5 when Spa sentry is present. It cost about $10 per month and I am sure backing soda is way cheaper if that matters, but BS does not keep ph in range it just helps. It is a good product. I am sure other chemical companies have something similar.
-
Calcium Hardness - The amount of dissolved calcium in the water. Low residuals can cause etching and corrosion in pools, while high residuals can cause scale buildup and cloudy water.
Calcium Hardness is important to balance in a spa if Spa Sentry is not being used. Low hardness can corrode the heater and damage the spa surface, as well as contribute to excessive foaming. High hardness can cause scale buildup and cloudy water. The higher water temperature of a spa makes it more difficult for calcium to stay in solution, so it is recommended that Stain and Scale Control be used weekly to prevent any scale buildup.
OK, now that we had a generalization, I'm looking for numbers and such. And what the heck is a Spa Sentry?
I know what low and high calcium hardness can do but I believe newbies are sometimes misled. To say you need this or that in a statement is BOGUS IMO. I'm not the most knowledgeable person in this area but I would hardly think that a person with a calcium reading of 250 PPM is at risk of calcium precipitating (spelling ?) out from the water if all the other water parameters are correct.
And as orangepeel said, he said he thinks he has soft water ... NUMBERS, WE NEED NUMBERS!!! ;D
OH, BTW orangepeel, you use calcium increaser to raise the hardness to the proper level.
150 to 300 ppm is the rcomendation by ALEX,,, biogaurd, water analysis system
-
Spa sentrey precipitates the calcium out of the water to 0 ppm upon application.
Most everything I have ever read on the topic recommends some calcium in solution to form a protective coating on surfaces prone to corrosion, like heaters. Also, if you precipitate it all out, where does it end up? I thought scale was calcium precipitated out of solution?
-
What constitutes "hard water"? I know it's the calcium quantity in the water but at what PPM does it become considered hard? Are there other factors?
It depends on whether you are a water softener manufacturer or not. ::) Sears, Culligan and Kinetico would have you beleive that any calcium or minerals are bad, and you should have their product to get them out. Really it depends on what you are going to do with the water. I like some minerals in my drinking water for flavor, and hot tubs like a moderate amount of calcium in solution to protect sensitive components. As you know the pH and temp of the water have an effect on how much calcium can stay in solution rather than precipitating out as scale. In general, for hot tub purposes, it seems that water below 100 ppm is considered soft, 200 just right, and above 400 hard. With hard water, or high pH/TA levels, a stain scale product is recommended.
-
The filter catches it
-
The filter catches it
What protects the heater and other components without a thin layer of calcium?
-
Never heard of calcium protecting metals. Soft water is looking to dissolve calcium not metal. A low ph will disolve metals.
-
funny, the girl at the pool store (whom I KNOW better than to listen to, as she's not from our dealer, nor does she REALLY have any interest in being sure things are right in our tub) said that our water is fine at a reading of 100ppm hardness....I thought it low, I do NOT 100% trust the test strips, and was going to purchase some stuff to raise the levels....now, using another strip (I know, I know.....strips bad, taylor kit GOOD!), the reading is hovering more around 25....well, I'll head to my dealer in the morning and rectify the sit-chee-ay-shun.
May as well call ahead too, and bring in a sample of the water for THEM to test....(this gives me the much needed excuse to buy more "tub stuff". mmmmmmmmmmmmmm........ tub stuff..... :D
-
Never heard of calcium protecting metals. Soft water is looking to dissolve calcium not metal. A low ph will disolve metals.
I always understood calcium protected metals (pumps, heaters). The question is whether todays metals used in spas need that protection.
-
Spa Sentry from Bioguard. Best spa product ever made. A phospherous buffer that controls Ph better than TA
Later: Never heard of calcium protecting metals. Soft water is looking to dissolve calcium not metal. A low ph will disolve metals.
Might want to do a little reading on this topic, beyond the back of the Spa Sentry bottle and the SpaGuard sales guide. ;) :)
-
Hey Reese, you wrote what I was thinking ... I like that!
For all of you who really want to know, here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water
Here's another: http://www.fcwa.org/water/hardness.htm
It explains water hardness, but it seems that WE tub owners have our tubs at VERY HARD according to the info there, unless I misread the hardness scale box.
-
For non-concrete/ gunite spas calcium should be 100-150ppm. Concrete/ gunite requires a higher calcium level. Taylor kits and the like, cover the entire range for portable, vinyl lined, and concrete spas/ pools.
Spa Sentry, a liquid pH stabilizer for lazy-folk, is a great product. However, the dealer not telling the hot tub user to turn off their heater upon application is doing them a BIG diservice. Some of the calcium is deposited in the filter, but MOST of the calcium will stick to the warm heater. This is bad for the heater. Heater needs to be OFF for 24 hrs. after application.
Any metal in any spa needs to be protected. Stainless steel will rust if it's in a low pH or high chloromine/ bromomine environment.
-
Hey Reese, you wrote what I was thinking ... I like that!
One of my favorite sayings is: "Great minds think alike....and small ones seldom differ!" :)
-
Spa Sentry, a liquid pH stabilizer for lazy-folk, is a great product. However, the dealer not telling the hot tub user to turn off their heater upon application is doing them a BIG diservice. Some of the calcium is deposited in the filter, but MOST of the calcium will stick to the warm heater. This is bad for the heater. Heater needs to be OFF for 24 hrs. after application.
I was advised by the tech I had in a while back to use a similar product - Leisure Time "pH Balance" - when first I got the pH and TA adjusted properly. My pH and TA have been pretty easy to maintain, both in the old tub and in the new one, so I never did add it, and I have a whole bottle sitting right here.
This is the first I've heard that it also increases the water's hardness or protects the spa's components, or that I needed to leave the heater off for so long after adding it. The label does not mention this either.
My calcium is WAY low, so I would appreciate confirmation that I have understood the above correctly. So . . .
1) adding a pH buffer product such as this will also increase the calcium level?
2) I should turn the temp down and let the tub run for a day before letting the heater come on again?
3) I should do this every time I drain and re-fill?
I wasn't planning on doing the first re-fill after only one month with the new tub, since I've had a tub before and have a pretty light hand with the chems. We soak "skyclad" and don't use a lot of lotions etc, so I feel pretty safe with that plan.
All advice appreciated . . . thanks!
-
I was advised by the tech I had in a while back to use a similar product - Leisure Time "pH Balance" - when first I got the pH and TA adjusted properly. My pH and TA have been pretty easy to maintain, both in the old tub and in the new one, so I never did add it, and I have a whole bottle sitting right here.
This is the first I've heard that it also increases the water's hardness or protects the spa's components, or that I needed to leave the heater off for so long after adding it. The label does not mention this either.
My calcium is WAY low, so I would appreciate confirmation that I have understood the above correctly. So . . .
1) adding a pH buffer product such as this will also increase the calcium level?
2) I should turn the temp down and let the tub run for a day before letting the heater come on again?
3) I should do this every time I drain and re-fill?
My understanding is just the opposite. The pH balance products take calcium OUT of solution, decreasing hardness. Since you are not having problems maintaining proper pH, it would be waste of money, as well as a potential risk to sensitive components.
It sounds as though you just need to add some calcium. Your dealer should be able to trade your pH Balance for a whole bunch of calcium.
-
Vinny,
It seems like you got a bit of a run around for a simple question. If you know how to pick and choose, the information is there. Dr. Spa told you why our spa water should be hard. Several people gave you good numbers 150 - 300 ppm is the right range.
I apologize that I didn't see your question sooner.
Regards,
Bill
-
My understanding is just the opposite. The pH balance products take calcium OUT of solution, decreasing hardness. Since you are not having problems maintaining proper pH, it would be waste of money, as well as a potential risk to sensitive components.
It sounds as though you just need to add some calcium. Your dealer should be able to trade your pH Balance for a whole bunch of calcium.
Thanks Reese . . .
Actually I guess I need to clarify just a bit. The label on the product I have does NOT claim to raise the calcium. What it does say is "Due to pH Balance's unique buffering capacity, it is not necessary to adjust the calcium (hardness) level in your spa" then goes on to say "do not use if calcium level is over 150ppm," because it will "soften hard water and precipitate calcium, resulting in cloudy water," just as you say. They apparently have a modified product for spas with hardness over 150ppm.
So, whatever that means, it appears I do not need this product as you have said, but only because my pH and TA are fine as is.
What I'm still wondering is whether there's a need to keep the heater from coming on for 24 hours after adding calcium, which I apparently do need to do, according to hottub.pool_boy's previous post . . . or is that due to something else in this particular buffering product?
Clear as mud? :-X
-
Spa Sentry type products remove the Calcium from the water and replace it with something else. That's why the heater needs to be off for the first 24 hrs. after adding. Calcium is then deposited in your filter, not on the heater.
If you're not using Spa Sentry type products, no need to worry about the heater with regular additions of calcium.
-
Like Pool Boy said. :)
-
If you're not using Spa Sentry type products, no need to worry about the heater with regular additions of calcium.
OK thanks that's what I thought . . . <scratching head> it would seem to me though, that something so important as turning off the heater ought to be on the labelling for this particular product. That's a different topic though . . .
Thanks again to both you and Reese!
-
Vinny,
It seems like you got a bit of a run around for a simple question. If you know how to pick and choose, the information is there. Dr. Spa told you why our spa water should be hard. Several people gave you good numbers 150 - 300 ppm is the right range.
I apologize that I didn't see your question sooner.
Regards,
Bill
Bill,
No need to apologize!
I thought about posting on here before thinking that I should use the web to research. I also thought by posting this here I would be able to help some newer newbies understand water hardness.
Actually I was surprised to see that we harden our water to very hard in the tub, I was thinking it was just above soft!
Vinny