Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Gary on July 28, 2006, 03:26:26 pm
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Ozonators are worthless unless the spa is built correctly to use the ozone (most do not build the spa properly). The spa has to have a contact chamber or it will be useless. I am amazed how many ozonators are sold/installed on spas without a contact chamber.
Done properly they are a big help and if you have one of these spas if the ozonaotor fails you will know as your water quality will diminish fairly quick.
If a dealer or manufacturer is selling/installing ozonators without an contact chamber they are crooks or stupid. Either way you are being stroked!
Gary
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Ozonators are worthless unless the spa is built correctly to use the ozone (most do not build the spa properly). The spa has to have a contact chamber or it will be useless. I am amazed how many ozonators are sold/installed on spas without a contact chamber.
Done properly they are a big help and if you have one of these spas if the ozonaotor fails you will know as your water quality will diminish fairly quick.
If a dealer or manufacturer is selling/installing ozonators without an contact chamber they are crooks or stupid. Either way you are being stroked!
Gary
What spas have a contact chamber? Which do not?
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What spas have a contact chamber? Which do not?
Vinny's does not ;D
The two that I know for sure are:
Marquis & Hot Springs
I am sure there are few more but not many.
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My Tiger River did not have 03 standard (unike thier Hotsprings Sisters who have 03 standard). The dealer installed the system for me and I was lead to belive that there was a contact chamber, how can I verify this? Under the cabinet it looked like the FWIII system hooked directly into the circ pump line.
What consititues a contact chamber?
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Vinny's does not ;D
The two that I know for sure are:
Marquis & Hot Springs
I am sure there are few more but not many.
So does D1.
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My Hydro Spa Omni has about 20+ feet of hose after the venturi (where the ozone enters the water). This allows for more contact time before the gas is released into the air. As I understand it, the amount of ozone released into the air under the cover is reduced with longer water contact time. This reduces ozone buildup that can cause covers and pillows to deteriorate. I don’t know if this is fact, but it makes sense to me.
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All Watkins Manufacturing spas have contact chambers:
Hot Spring
Tiger River
Hot Spot
Solana
Caldera
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My Tiger River did not have 03 standard (unike thier Hotsprings Sisters who have 03 standard). The dealer installed the system for me and I was lead to belive that there was a contact chamber, how can I verify this? Under the cabinet it looked like the FWIII system hooked directly into the circ pump line.
What consititues a contact chamber?
You would have to do some digging. All it is a extra piping so the ozone can stay in the water longer. The spa would also have to a injector to create the venturi affect (most are Mazzies). No injector = no contact chamber.
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Vinny, are you sure your tub has a UV and not a CD Ozonator?
My artesian(05) has a mazzie injector and has a CD(not UV) ozonator.
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On the Artesian Island spas, standard ozone and Propure ozone are options. It is my understanding that standard ozone does not include a contact chamber and Propure ozone does. I recently bought a 2005 Captiva and was told and believe it has the Propure ozone. Jeff
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My Tiger River did not have 03 standard (unike thier Hotsprings Sisters who have 03 standard). The dealer installed the system for me and I was lead to belive that there was a contact chamber, how can I verify this?
It does. I'm holding up my right hand as I type. (That's why it took so long).
The contact chamber is a length of pvc flex pipe - which has a gentle spiral built in - and is between 12 and 14 feet in length. It is wrapped around the footwell area, covered in insulating foam.
You can't see it, but it's there.
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All Sundance tubs are equipped with a Mazzei injector and a contact chamber.
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Ozonators are worthless unless the spa is built correctly to use the ozone (most do not build the spa properly). The spa has to have a contact chamber or it will be useless.
Gary
The tub is your contact chamber just the same as a resevoir is the contact chamber at a water treatment plant. Well we are clearing up misconceptions UV is not ozone and has no oxidizing characteristics at all, it is only a secondary treatment
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You would have to do some digging. All it is a extra piping so the ozone can stay in the water longer. The spa would also have to a injector to create the venturi affect (most are Mazzies). No injector = no contact chamber.
HotSpring tubs have the contact chambers, Tiger River have them even though they do not come standard with the ozone generator, Caldera has it, etc.
No injector does NOT mean that the spa is not 'ozone ready.'
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The tub is your contact chamber just the same as a resevoir is the contact chamber at a water treatment plant. Well we are clearing up misconceptions UV is not ozone and has no oxidizing characteristics at all, it is only a secondary treatment
Um, no.
There is a contact chamber in many top-brand tubs, designed to allow the ozone and water to stay in contact for a few critical seconds BEFORE the mix is injected into the tub. If the tub was the contact chamber - and I have sold other brands where there is no contact chamber - the ozone smells, burns the cover, pillows and doesn't work as well.
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Vita and Reflections spas have a long tube for contact and injectors as part of the system, at least in the higher end series. Mine has one anyway.
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I think we have a misunderstanding here - UV is one of the two types of Ozone generators. It is also a type of 'purifier system' which I haven't seen much on spas.
I had a customer with a built-in spa that had a UV system - it was a huge box with a clear pipe about four feet long. In the center of the clear pipe was an UV light bulb. As the water passed through the system, it was exposed to UV light.
It was not working when I took over the account, and it later developed a leak so I removed it from the system.
UV ozone systems use an UV light in an AIR chamber to create ozone, CD use a high voltage discharge to do the same thing.
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In order for ozone to destroy anything it has to come in contact with its target, any length of piping after it injection point longer than a couple of feet would be good enough. After that, anything passing though the stream of bubbles would also be treated.
Guys and Girls, I know what you mean by the term contact chamber but consider the amount of ozone being produced by our small chips. If we were using a system like the drinking water industry then, contact time or CT would become an issue. The CT in a 400 gal. tub at 1 part per million of ozone is a matter of minutes. Since ozone has next to no residual its all gone in about that minute. If you take the amount of time the water takes to flow though your contact chamber at say 35 gpm( a small circ pump) you would need alot more than 14 or 15 feet and alot bigger contact chamber to have any greater effect. I have spent the last 4 1/2 years in the maintenance dept. of a 32 million gal/day water treatment plant that uses chlorine and ozone. I have spent time at other plant that use chlorine and UV.
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I have spent the last 4 1/2 years in the maintenance dept. of a 32 million gal/day water treatment plant that uses chlorine and ozone. I have spent time at other plant that use chlorine and UV.
Apples to oranges. The flow rate in a HotSpring spa is about 6 gpm, so a fourteen foot pipe makes a radical difference in the amount of off-gas. I have owned both, sold both.
Also, I doubt you have bathers in your water tanks. The off-gassing from your system would probably send most folks running - or to a doctor. Spas use contact chambers just for that purpose: to reduce off-gassing.
Also, the ozone generators in a HotSpring - and I understand Sundance has now jumped on board - are of a much larger Chamber design, not the smaller chip design. They have a stainless steel and ceramic chamber with a larger power supply.
The chamber is supposed to last for ten years or more, while the chips must be replaced after 9000 hours of operation.
:)
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Chas
My last post may have been a bit snarky and I apologize for that. I did not know of the 6gpm pump and that was my point at 35 gpm water is moving way to fast HS may be doing things different then when I looked at thier tubs. You may be surprized about bathers in resevoir tanks(just kidding), Its OK to drink the water. I do not consider myself any kind of expert on Hot Tub water, stuff happens way to fast, all I can do is relate it to the systems we use. If you want to know whats coming form your tap ask me, if you want to know about Tub water there are better educated people than myself.
Enough of the nice stuff, I would like to correct you on the UV part though. UV sterilizer do not creat ozone, to create ozone gas you need a high voltage current and oxygen. In my industry they are primarily used to treat wastewater and in oder for them to work properly the water must pass though very slowly.
Once agian I apologize for the tone
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I had a customer with a built-in spa that had a UV system - it was a huge box with a clear pipe about four feet long. In the center of the clear pipe was an UV light bulb. As the water passed through the system, it was exposed to UV light.
That's a UV sterilizer, quite different from an ozonator. In fact, while both use UV lights, the frequency of the light is considerably different.
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Artesian is such a well built spa ... they don't need no stinkin' ozone! ;D
Actually, the Prozone was an option for me and I asked the dealer. Their recommendation was pretty much on what I found - ozone isn't the cure all of tubs and it wasn't worth the extra money. They outfit their tubs with standard ozone because most of their customers wanted ozone and it did a little something but Artesian didn't equip their tubs with CD ozone unless the upgrade was bought.
As far as efficiency of ozone, you need to remember that water treatment ozone units usually (always(?)) have 100% O2 attached to it ... we breathe 21% - there's a 79% reduction in efficiency even if it is a CD unit.
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As far as efficiency of ozone, you need to remember that water treatment ozone units usually (always(?)) have 100% O2 attached to it ... we breathe 21% - there's a 79% reduction in efficiency even if it is a CD unit.
BIG ASS O2 UNITS and some very scary scubbers, Scott Air packs. gas detectors and sirens that will clear a city block. Please don't get the wrong idea commercial chlorine gas has all the same stuff, but handled correctly is very very safe
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Enough of the nice stuff, I would like to correct you on the UV part though. UV sterilizer do not creat ozone, to create ozone gas you need a high voltage current and oxygen. In my industry they are primarily used to treat wastewater and in oder for them to work properly the water must pass though very slowly.
Once agian I apologize for the tone
No need to apologize - I think we are getting closer to the nub here: UV ozone generators do, in fact create ozone. There are thousands of them in use to this day, even though the Corona Discharge unit is taking over.
What I think you may be missing, and forgive me if I'm not making this clear - pun fully intended - is that we are talking about two very different systems.
In one, air is drawn through a chamber with an ultraviolet lamp - and most defintely creates ozone. This is what Del and other companies were founded on, and some still embrace.
In the other - and it would make sense that you are familiar with this type of equipment given your area of expertise - the WATER is drawn through the UV light. As you said, the water must go through slowly, and as Doc posted above, the light frequency, while still ultraviolet, is different.
Phew. Fun.
I should mention that I worked with Del many years ago as they engineered a system for HotSpring tubs. HotSpring was firmly set against ozone at the time - this would be the late eighties - and the engineers from Del coudn't get a foot in the door. I was a Del dealer, one of the early ones, and so they came to me to see HotSpring spas in action, and they asked lots of questions. I was not the closest HotSpring dealer, but I would talk to them. I was then presented with a handful of units designed to retrofit HotSpring tubs, and we did beta testing.
These were UV ozone generators with a circ pump, injector and power adapter in a self-contained unit. I had a Grandee in the BOQ at a local naval base, and we had to put the Delzone unit in an equipment room. So, we plumbed it in with about fifteen feet of vinyl tubing each way, and guess what? It was the best one of the test.
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Here are some pics of some UV ozone generators:
(http://www.rhtubs.com/images/oz5.jpg)This is a real basic unit available at Robert' Hot Tubs - rhtubs.com
This is Del's last remaining UV unit:
(http://www.delozone.com/images/maintext-prd-spa-zo-300.jpg)(http://www.delozone.com/images/mtext-text-prd-spa-zo-300.jpg)
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Chas
this is getting very confusing yourself, Vinny and I are posting back and forth on 2 different topics. We really should stick to one. I took a quick look at the units you posted the pics of and did some quick searches on yahoo. I have to admit this may be something I am not familiar with, but learning something new is always a good thing. The beast we use for drinking water is 46,000 volts,02 extraction and can achieve a 5 ppm count. As you have said it is drasticly different. I will dig up the info I have at work on Monday and in the meantime I will snoop around the internet for the units you showed. You never know I might be able to say I learned something today!!
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There ya go.
;)
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Chas
this is getting very confusing yourself, Vinny and I are posting back and forth on 2 different topics. We really should stick to one. I took a quick look at the units you posted the pics of and did some quick searches on yahoo. I have to admit this may be something I am not familiar with, but learning something new is always a good thing. The beast we use for drinking water is 46,000 volts,02 extraction and can achieve a 5 ppm count. As you have said it is drasticly different. I will dig up the info I have at work on Monday and in the meantime I will snoop around the internet for the units you showed. You never know I might be able to say I learned something today!!
Now that's what I want for my tub!!!
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Now that's what I want for my tub!!![/quote]
;D ;DJust think what 1250 pounds per day of ozone gas will do to your headrests and cover :'( :'( :'(
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Interesting thread. I am definitely learning a thing or two. But I need to know more about this contact chamber you are talking about. Is it a tube, a box or a hose?
I have an 8 month old Jacuzzi 385 with a CD ozonator. If you believe the web site, "....designed to provide the maximum amount of ozone concentration" it has a contact chamber, but if I wanted to be sure, where would I look and what would I look for?
A few months after the tub was installed I had some issue with cloudiness. The tech came out and said the ozonator went bad and put a new one in. No problems with cloudiness since. To be fair I did a water change and switched from MPS to Dichlor so it isn't exactly a scientic finding.
www.jacuzzi.com
Ozone Systems
Ozone is the most powerful oxidizer available. Corona Discharge (CD) produces ozone and it instantly zaps bacteria and other harmful chemicals from your spa water preventing unwanted residue in your spa and minimizes sulfur odors. The ozone systems are designed specifically to be compatible with our control systems and stereo units. The ozone-ready plumbing system exclusive to most 2005 and 2006 Jacuzzi® hot tub models is uniquely designed to provide the maximum amount of ozone concentration using our CD units.
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Some tub makers use a simple length of 'spa flex' tubing, which has a gentle spiral built in. The HS and TR tubs have somewhere around 12 - 14 feet of the stuff, and it's installed on all the tubs, even though the TR tubs do not come standard with ozone. They are 'ozone ready.'
Some companies use a large 'off-gas vessel,' which is some sort of larger-diameter pipe, maybe 10 or 12 inch diameter, with the ozone being introduced at the bottom, and the water flowing in the opposite direction. Then they capture the off gas at the top of the vessel and re-inject it somewhere in the system. Here is Del's MDV:
(http://www.delozone.com/images/maintext-pic-prd-mdv.jpg)
Other folks have other ideas. I think they all do about the same thing, and I like the simplicity of the HS system. I have retrofit ozone to HS tubs without the contact chamber, and it began to burn the cover, especially right above the return fitting. Also there was a heavy ozone odor when you first opened the cover - unless it happened to be breezy at the moment...
I went back and added a coiled up piece of spa flex - gently looped around the motor compartment a couple of times, and the burning and smell both stopped.
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Chas,
Still working things out about UV but I saw that off-gassing vessel(bubble trap) on the web sight you posted. It looks like a get idea, wouldn't it save you alot of space on retro fits. We use bubble traps on all kinds of instrumentation and they work great
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I don't do many retrofits, since HS has made 'ozone ready' tubs for many years now.
If I do retrofit, I just put in a loop of Spa flex - lay it in the motor compartment when I can - and it works great.
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The funny thing about the Del's (and maybe others) is their secret weapon is activated carbon. BUT once it's about a year old or gets wet it stops working.
I think the long tubing is probably the best idea. Back in 2004 when I looked at D1 they ran the tubing up and down the parimeter of the tub ... but the used a UV ozonator ... as the dealer told me "those CD units aren't as good as the UV units" ... hmmmmm.
That's why it's important ladies and gentalment to find a good dealer ...
If I decide to keep ozone in the tub I was planning on buying a CD unit and 20' of tubing. Somehow I figured I could get some type of connector to attach the tubing together with what's there ... I'm so confused!! ???
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Vinny
Chas posted some great websites on your experiment topic showing various installation ideas. You could look at the by-pass style or the off gas vessel, both would be easy and look like they would work well
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I actually looked at the Del vessel and found a couple of things that "wouldn't work". First, is what I mentioned - I can't see how any water won't get the activated carbon filter wet. The second is the flow rate at which the vessel can take the circ pump. My pump is advertised at 11 GPM and I think the Del can only go to 8 without some additional plumbing.
I will look at the other websites to see exactly what available. I won't be doing anything to the plumbing until after the warranty, I have 2 more years.
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I had an interesting conversation in my store a few weeks ago. The gentleman I spoke with claims to be working with a former NASA scientist on a O1 system to purify water. He claimed it would sanitize sewage (which would leave sediment at the bottom that would require filtration. He claimed the water skimmed off the top met or exceeded all standard of water purification.
This system has a generator that creates a single oxygen molocule that according to hit is a much more powerful oxidizer than O3.
He claimed his brothers hot tub has been used as a prototype and uses absolutely no other sanitizer.
I was intrigued, but sceptical.
If I hear more I wil share.
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This is a very interesting thread. Chas, are you saying that my contact chamber for my spa (HS Envoy) is a 14' piece of tubing that is wound up in my footwell area? The only reason for this is to prevent off gassing? Does the tubing ever get damaged from the ozone? I bet it would be difficult to remove or replace the tubing.
There still seems to be some controversy whether or not ozone is actually effective? Are there any independent experiments conducted in the spa industry on the effectiveness of ozone? If so, I would like to read the report.
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Gombo, I dont have any clinical evidence to present.
What I have been taught is that O3 has a very short half life in water. Somewhere around 30 seconds.
Airborne ozone could last 30 minutes.
As far damage to the pipe, that is a good question.
The goal of that 14' foot pipe or any intelligent ozone system would be to trap the ozone in the water for 30 seconds. Otherwise it becomes airborne between your water and cover and WILL damage the cover and pillows etc.
If the ozone is trapped long enough, the bubbles floating to the surfac e are simply oxygen.
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OK, so the goal is to trap the ozone for 30 seconds and then release it into the spa? I'm assuming if you trap it too long the ozone will be depleted and offer no benefit?
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The "life" of ozone in 100 degree water is 22 seconds. After that it isn't helping or hurting anything. If the ozone only stays in the water for 10 seconds or so, half of it is wasted. This wasted ozone can have a harmful effect - causing damage to covers, headrests, lungs, etc.
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OK, so the goal is to trap the ozone for 30 seconds and then release it into the spa? I'm assuming if you trap it too long the ozone will be depleted and offer no benefit?
The work is done in the contact chamber, not in the body of water that you bath in. It is virtually impossible for the ozone to have an effect if injected directly into the spa as it is lighter than the water and would float to the surface and then be trapped by the cover.