Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: anne on May 01, 2006, 08:20:19 pm
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Help- I cannot get my water clear and beautiful! I'm about to dump it and start over, but the water has only been in the tub a month, so I'd really rather figure out the problem so it does not happen again. This has been going on about a week. Clarifier helped a little, but not completely.
pH is 7.4 (after much battling to get it down- it is very steady), there is no combined chlorine, shocking with MPS does not help.
I do have hard water (400-500) so I have added Defend weekly.
I use dichlor, and have ozone.
Dont use any lotions, etc before getting in, no hair products in the water, etc.
No suits, so no detergent issues.
Dont know what my TDS is, but like I said, only had water in it for 5 weeks.
Do bar soaps leave residue? I'm thinking I may have dirty elves in the water in the middle of the night. Any better ideas?
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Have you cleaned your filter yet? How long do you filter? Do you shock? Have you tried enzyme products?
We have lots of ideas for you. ;D
Glad to see you got your pH under control.
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anne,
Clean the filter, hit it with 6 PPM dichlor and get some clarifier. I'm using the Sea Klear product and it seems to work pretty well.
Put in the dichlor, wait about an hour or 2 and put in the clarifier. If your tub is really cloudy, you may need a 2nd dose - then rinse the filters again. As hottubdan mentioned maybe your filtering too little.
I find that I can go every other day without adding dichlor but if I wait 2 days - it starts getting cloudy.
I'm amazed when I read that people can go 4 or more days and their water stays crystal clear. I've even tried N2 with no luck.
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Vinny and Dan, thanks for the input! Here's where my spa maintenance is going to differ form yours: Arctic has disposable filters- I dont clean them, rather replace every 3-4 months. I was not thrilled about this, but it was not enough to make me back away from purchasing the tub. I am supposed to minimize clarifier use with this type of filter, but using a little is "ok." So that is what I have done.
I have tried enzyme (LT)
I have shocked with MPS, and added a big dose of chlorine that got the tub to about 5 ppm. (two different occasions)
I run the filter the recommended amount- 2 hrs 3x/day. I'm going to up that to 4x/day. The filter "looks" clean enough, for 5 weeks running. Barely off-white now.
Any Arctic people out there able to comment on how happy they are with their filters? Are re-usable washable ones an option?
So far in the life of the tub I have added a few doses of baking soda, a ton of dry acid, almost daily chlorine, weekly defend, and started with metal gon, a dose here and there if clarifier and enzyme- I think 3 and 2 respectively. Could I have high TDS already?
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Sea Klear is excellent.
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Sea Klear is excellent.
Better than defend? And If I'm supposed to avoid clarifier use, is this the direction I should be going?
I bought defend because it is the "closest" to the arctic product that is ok to use in moderation. I was told that the Arctic proprietary product is basically like watered down defend. It worked GREAT one day last weekend, but since then, no pretty water. :P :-/ :'(
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anne,
I used to add enzymes but found they were adding to my foaming problem. I used 2 different brands and no difference. Chlorine will eat up the enzymes and be used up doing so. I also think that it contributed to sometimes clouding my water..
Dosing with dichlor daily your tub should be extremely clear without any bacteria growing to get it to cloudy state.
Do you use N2 and have it in the filter? That could lower the flow. Running 6 hours a day at 50 GPM (I don't know how many GPM a pump is filtering at low speed) would give you 18000 gallons filtered per day ... I'm sure that it's enough filtering for your tub.
Do you have strips that measure TDS (I think I remember you used strips before)?
I will say that my water is atypical of other's water. Things that people swear by (N2, enzymes and such) don't seem to have a positive effect on my water. Quite honestly, I have gotten about 6 or 7 weeks tops out of my water before something makes me dump and refill ... it makes me jealous when I read people make it to 3 or 4 months with their water!
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sounds like the calcium is falling out of solution. Hot water has a VERY difficult holding 400-500 ppm of calcium in solution. Stain and scale control, pool magnet, etc. I think will be the fix.
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Better than defend? And If I'm supposed to avoid clarifier use, is this the direction I should be going?
I bought defend because it is the "closest" to the arctic product that is ok to use in moderation. I was told that the Arctic proprietary product is basically like watered down defend. It worked GREAT one day last weekend, but since then, no pretty water. :P :-/ :'(
I never carried Defend, but I swear by Sea Klear.
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Anne, Â
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Is this the first month of spa ownership? Chas has a rule that he tells his customers to dump the water after the first. I had the same problem for some reason. I think we tend to micro manage our chemicals when we are rookies. I haven't had a problem since. Water is the cheapest thing you can buy for your spa. It costs me less than a dollar to fill up the spa. Add a couple of bucks for electricity to heat it. It's still cheaper than buying clarifiers etc. Just my two cents... Â
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Goboman is right.
I have told my customers to do a water change at the end of the first month for years. It's the only time you will have to do so, three or four months is fine after that, but the first month is hard not to over-love the tub.
Also, you are deep-cleaning your pores - all of them - and it's a bit tough for anyone to deal with that.
I didn't know Arctic doesn't offer reuseable filters. If you give me the exact dimensions, perhaps we can find a Unicel replacement for you?
Worth a shot.
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" Dosing with dichlor daily your tub should be extremely clear without any bacteria growing to get it to cloudy state. "
I think (and this is not scientific of me, I know) that the clouding is not bacteria b/c the water smells very fresh. I could be mislead. I'm still going to super-chlorinate tomorrow.
" Do you use N2 and have it in the filter?"
I have not used N2 yet. Can it be used NOT in the filter?
""Stain and scale control, pool magnet, etc. I think will be the fix.
What is a pool magnet? I'm going to re-dose the defend tonight.
" I have told my customers to do a water change at the end of the first month for years. It's the only time you will have to do so, three or four months is fine after that, but the first month is hard not to over-love the tub. "
Chas, I remember you saying this when I first started reading here, and that was going to be my next step. I am just worried that I'll be changing water every 1-2 months like Vinny! Sounds frustrating!
I'll check on the replacement cost of the disposable filters, and see if this current problem clears up. Thank you for the offer.
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Anne, As one who had a very difficult time keeping my tub clear, I can honestly say the best fix for me was Chas' solution, dump the tub. I fought doing it for 2 months, but what a difference when I did. I think I have things pretty much under control now and don't even test as much as I did before. Good luck
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Defender is a stain and scale controller.
Sea Klear is a clarifier.
I alternate every other week with a dash of clarifier (if needed) and the following week Defender.
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" Do you use N2 and have it in the filter?"
I have not used N2 yet. Can it be used NOT in the filter?
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Yes.
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Vinny and Dan, thanks for the input! Here's where my spa maintenance is going to differ form yours: Arctic has disposable filters- ÊI dont clean them, rather replace every 3-4 months. I was not thrilled about this, but it was not enough to make me back away from purchasing the tub. I am supposed to minimize clarifier use with this type of filter, but using a little is "ok." So that is what I have done.
I have tried enzyme (LT)
I have shocked with MPS, and added a big dose of chlorine that got the tub to about 5 ppm. (two different occasions)
I run the filter the recommended amount- 2 hrs Ê3x/day. I'm going to up that to 4x/day. The filter "looks" clean enough, for 5 weeks running. Barely off-white now.
Any Arctic people out there able to comment on how happy they are with their filters? Are re-usable washable ones an option?
So far in the life of the tub I have added a few doses of baking soda, a ton of dry acid, almost daily chlorine, weekly defend, and started with metal gon, a dose here and there if clarifier and enzyme- I think 3 and 2 respectively. Could I have high TDS already?
Technically to superchlorinate you need to get to 10 PPM. It is at that point the combined chlorines are literally broken apart.
I would not be concerned with TDS.
Give it a true superchlorination. If that doesn't work dump the water. Just know you are going to have to drive the TA and pH down again.
Good luck.
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Technically to superchlorinate you need to get to 10 PPM. It is at that point the combined chlorines are literally broken apart.
I guess I was not careful with terminology. I did not think I had to truely "shock" the water to get rid of combined chlorines, b/c I have no combined chlorines. (I added weekly MPS yesterday anyway) I was just thinking that the tub may need a bigger sanitizing dose than usual. My taylor kit only goes up to 5ppm, so I'm not sure I'll know when the water is at 10ppm. I know that right now the test water is darker pink than 5ppm- estimating 7-8.
Sigh. Water is probably going to get dumped friday when I have some time. It is a little clearer than yesterday, after the MPS, but not great.
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You might want to try Enhanced shock, which combines chlorine, MPS and borates. Helps keep sparkling water.
When you say you use Defend, is that LT Spa Defender?
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You might want to try Enhanced shock, which combines chlorine, MPS and borates. Helps keep sparkling water.
When you say you use Defend, is that LT Spa Defender?
hey, look whos online! :)
Yeah- LOL- I looked at the bottle last night and realized it is DefendER, not just Defend. By LT. Using it weekly b/c the water is so hard.
Is there an advantage to Enhanced shock vs separately chlorinating daily and MPS weekly? What do borates do?
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Is there an advantage to Enhanced shock vs separately chlorinating daily and MPS weekly? What do borates do?
From spaguard.com
Every spa needs to be shocked to eliminate undesirable compounds that build up with use. Enhanced Shock allows you to quickly shock your spa and re-enter in just fifteen minutes as long as the free chlorine is between 1-4 ppm. It also offers additional benefitsÑlike keeping the water sparkling and fresh. Enhanced Shock is available in several sizesÑincluding a new 5 lb. bottle.
This multi-purpose oxidizer is perfectly formulated for spas. Each ingredient in this blended product performs an important role:
¥ The non-chlorine oxidizer breaks apart chloramines and reactivates bromide ions.
¥ The dichloro oxidizes undesirable compounds and removes odors.
¥ The flocculent/clarifier helps filter out particles which don't oxidize easily.
¥ The pH buffer prevents drastic changes in the pH balance.
Enhanced Shock is effective and easy to apply. Spas can be used again as soon as the chlorine residual drops to 4 ppm.
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Technically to superchlorinate you need to get to 10 PPM. It is at that point the combined chlorines are literally broken apart.
I would not be concerned with TDS.
Give it a true superchlorination. If that doesn't work dump the water. Just know you are going to have to drive the TA and pH down again.
Good luck.
I think it's supposed to be 10X the combined chlorine amount not just 10 PPM. If your combined chlorine is 0.5 then you need 5 PPM free chlorine, at 1 PPM CC you need 10 PPM free chlorine ...
Superchlorination is a different concept - that's when you add 10 PPM or more to kill everything in the tub that the regular dose may not not have killed.
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Let's back up here and consider the most likely cause for your water clarity problem. As I understand it your water source is hard. This usually implies calcium, but it could also include other minerals in relatively high concentrations. High concentrations of iron, for example, can turn the water brown if you shock with chlorine. Cloudy water that cannot be cleared up with normal oxidizers such as MPS, certainly point to high mineral levels.
If I had this problem there would be at least 3 possibilities that might be tried. First, have the water super filtered through a high grade carbon filter system to remove the minerals. This service is provided by water delivery companies such as cater to swimming pool customers. Second, fill the tub with 50% hard water right out of the tap, and 50% treated water from a water softener. Third, live with the problem and dump the tub when the water gets cloudy even if that occurs every 4 or 5 weeks. Your final decision should be based on the lowest overall cost option.
Regards,
Bill
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Would it make sense that if hardness is the problem, that it would take a few weeks for clouding to occur? Does anyone else out there have water in the 400-500 range?
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I think dumping your water is still the best solution. I would try to get the calcium level down a little as soon a you re-fill. Most of your problems should go away. If not, the experts here can guide you through it. I think it's better to start over. I don't do too many things correct the first time around... ;D
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I would try to get the calcium level down a little as soon a you re-fill.
Is there a way to do this without a water softener system? I do not have, nor am I able to invest right now, in a whole house system just for the spa.
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Stain and Scale should help a little.
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Hey Anne, I have an Arctic also. When my water gets cloudy ( maybe once every two weeks ) I add a very small amount of " Poly Sheen " from bio-guard, some stuff I bought for my swimming pool.? After that I run the tub for two cycles. It takes all the crap making it cloudy and coagulates it together floating on top. I then skim off and the spa is as good as new. I have taken out the filter once and picked off a few pieces of lint or what ever..... no major problems. I don't have ozone and add some diclor after use and some xtra diclor once a week to 10 days. My teenage sons and freinds use the tub often ( heavy dichlor after them) but for the most part I don't fuss much, I do a chem test about twice a month, if the colors are close to being in the "Good" range I leave it alone. The way the water looks, feels and smells means more to me than the test. I don't know if I'm lucky or stupid or if doing less is actually better? Good luck
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Is there a way to do this without a water softener system? I do not have, nor am I able to invest right now, in a whole house system just for the spa.
There is no way to lower the calcium level in your spa other than draining and the problem with that is you tap water is probably just as high in calcium. With calcium hardness that high make sure you use some type of scale inhibitor regularly. You shouldnt have a problem with cloudiness from calcium unless your ph and alkalinity are high also that will cause you saturation index to be on the scale forming side. With what your describing your sanitizer levels and ph at it sounds like a filtering problem. How heavily has the spa been used in the last month that it was filled.
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I think it's supposed to be 10X the combined chlorine amount not just 10 PPM. If your combined chlorine is 0.5 then you need 5 PPM free chlorine, at 1 PPM CC you need 10 PPM free chlorine ...
Superchlorination is a different concept - that's when you add 10 PPM or more to kill everything in the tub that the regular dose may not not have killed.
Its 10 ppm for each 1ppm of chloramines. You take your combined chlorine reading and subtract your free chlorine reading and that will tell you the chloramine level. If total chlorine and free chlorine readings are the same there are no chloramines present and no need to shock.