Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Drewski on April 24, 2006, 02:04:37 pm
-
Hi All:
Well, my Piper Glenn is turning 7 this year and it's reached the point I need to do some work on it. It seems I always have "problems" during the winter, so I'm planning on doing replacements during this summer.
Last year, I replaced the main board (thanks to dealers on this forum who helped me). My control pack is a Gecko MSPA-4 with 5.5KW heater capacity, 3 therapy pumps, circ pump, ozone, multiple lights, etc. A circuit diagram is attached below.
This year I'd like to do the following:
- Replace the cover. The cover is heavily water logged and because of my current set-up, getting quite a bit of abuse. I'd like to get a new cover and add a lifter with short clearance capability. I have about 14" between my tub and the fence, meaning the lifter would need to operate in this distance. Suggestions on a cover and lifter?
- Replace the Ozonator. I'm pretty certain my ozonator stopped working about a year ago, when I suddenly noticed a significant difference in water quality. My old one is a UV model running 120VAC. I operate the circ pump and ozone continuously, meaning unless I change settings I'd have almost 9,000 HRS on the ozone system per year. If I switch to CD with modules, how often would I need to change the chip/module? Also, any recommendation for a ozone/CD unit?
- Replace the Circ Pump. My Grundfos 115 VAC circ pump is coming up on 50,000 HRS of use and it's occasionally making strange sounds. One issue I've had with the tub is that during cold weather the temperature of the water doesn’t "recover" as fast as I'd like and I've heard the suggestion to replace the circ pump with one that has a higher GPH rating. Recommendations?
- Replace the Heater. My Gecko board is rated for a 5.5 KW heater, but Artesian installed only a 4 KW model. I did some amperage measuring when the tub was on and even with both pumps, the circ pump, ozone and heater operating, total load was just at 30 AMPs on the 50 AMP GFCI circuit. The 4 KW heater accounted for 15 AMPs of this load and I'm figuring that upgrading this to 5.5 KW would mean a 20-22 AMP load, still under the 40 AMP (80% of rating) limit. I'm thinking that by upgrading the heater and the circ pump, my "recovery" time in cold weather would be better. Thoughts and recommendations?
- Replace some Jets. Some of my jets are "frozen" and do not rotate, undoubtedly because of sand. My diverter valves also are hard to operate under pressure and have some obvious scoring in them when I pull and look inside. I have no idea how to remove/replace either of these or what tools to use, etc. Suggestions and/or help?
Anyway, I'll be doing this work myself on the weekends and I'm planning on starting in June. Any help ya'll could give would be highly appreciated!
As always, THANKS!
Drewski
8)
(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2415/hottubm30246ym.th.jpg) (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hottubm30246ym.jpg)
-
Cover - I'd go with Sunstar, they are great covers.
Lift - Sounds like a Covermate III would be ideal
-
Check out the covers offered on Doc's site.
I'm quite sure I'll be getting my replacement there. Seems like you get a lot for the money, and shipping is included in his prices.
-
Check out the covers offered on Doc's site.
I'm quite sure I'll be getting my replacement there. Seems like you get a lot for the money, and shipping is included in his prices.
With all due respect to both yourself and Doc's site, but based on the many debates witnessed on this site and the recommendations to not only feel, sit in and wet test various Hot Tub choices, how can you evaluate and endorse something sight unseen.
We get calls every day for covers and the first question is about price. Again there are "quality" manufacturers and there are inexpensive covers. Even the "quality" manufacturers sell lower grade materials in their covers as an option for cheaper prices. The problem with buying on the internet is that you get what you got, and you get it without seeing it or touching it to know how good or not so good it is and what else is there to compare it to.
Again, this is not a slam on anyone or thing, and there are a lot of different cover makers out there. Even doc's site offers different cost options. I am sure dealers have covers available through their manufacturers, why is it that one should assume you can get a better cover or price by not checking out your dealer first.
Don't get me wrong brewman, I am not trying to sell you or anybody else a cover, but I would encourage people to shop for a cover the same as they would shop for a spa, and that would not necessarily be on the internet. There are still warranty issues to consider and the dealer can often be a better choice.
-
With all due respect to both yourself and Doc's site, but based on the many debates witnessed on this site and the recommendations to not only feel, sit in and wet test various Hot Tub choices, how can you evaluate and endorse something sight unseen.
We get calls every day for covers and the first question is about price. Again there are "quality" manufacturers and there are inexpensive covers. Even the "quality" manufacturers sell lower grade materials in their covers as an option for cheaper prices. The problem with buying on the internet is that you get what you got, and you get it without seeing it or touching it to know how good or not so good it is and what else is there to compare it to.
Again, this is not a slam on anyone or thing, and there are a lot of different cover makers out there. Even doc's site offers different cost options. I am sure dealers have covers available through their manufacturers, why is it that one should assume you can get a better cover or price by not checking out your dealer first.
Don't get me wrong brewman, I am not trying to sell you or anybody else a cover, but I would encourage people to shop for a cover the same as they would shop for a spa, and that would not necessarily be on the internet. There are still warranty issues to consider and the dealer can often be a better choice.
Your point is well taken, but do you have a recomendation?, I think that's all brewman was trying to do.
/ask for the forum discount. ::)
-
Thanks Brewman and J.Mc_D.
I've bought stuff from Doc before and I'm very happy with his products. I've also had PM conversations with him concerning his covers and know that he uses CNC machinary for production. I'd be very comfortable buying from him and compared to local suppliers he's cheaper.
Drewski
8)
-
I think that's all brewman was trying to do.
/ask for the forum discount. ::)
You nailed it. I figured Drewski was already going to check locally, especially at his dealer, or others in his area.
I will be getting a new cover pretty soon, too. The factory one I got from my dealer is 3 years old and is waterlogged. And they are asking top dollar for another just like it. So I know where I stand with that.
I've also researched Doc's covers, and I like what I saw.
I consider him a credible source for many reasons- his participation here without pushing his own agenda, testimonials from many satisfied customers.
I can get a cover with the options I want from Doc for less money than my dealer will sell me the same cover I've already got. They don't offer anything else.
Would I get a spa site unseen? No way Jose.
But I don't put covers, lifters, filters, chemicals, etc...
if the same category.
And sorry to say, money and getting what I want are factors, and here is where my dealer can't or won't compete.
They get plenty of my business in other ways.
-
My Artesian cover isn't the best. Don't know if it's supposed to be but my cover is about 3" larger than my tub, it's a Cal Cover.
I would buy a cover from Doc ... have bought other supplies from him as well. I also would be a little concerned about walking into a dealer other than an Artesian dealer, giving measurements and hoping I get a good or great cover. Based on the info on Doc's site his covers seem to be a lot better than what I got.
Covermate 3 is a nice lifter, Drewski - if you want to see a photo of it in action, let me know.
I would try replacing the ozonator with a CD unit - can you change the times on how long your ozone runs? New Artesian's with circ pumps can. Maybe add 20 extra feet of tubing to keep the off gassing from happening. Doc sells them also.
As far as the circ pump, you just replaced the filters and this might give you better heat trasfer but look into the 2004 model year circ pump. I think they were 120 V (new ones are 220V) and pumped 11 GPM (at least they advertised that)
If you have Waterway jets - go to waterway plastics and they have on-line PDF of their jets (a bit of a pain to look at but go to pgs 16-20 I think). They also list dealers.
As far as your diverter - I think it's all done by O rings (2) - buy new ones grease them up you should be fine.
-
I also have a CovermateIII lifter and love it. Saturday night we had a really bad rain storm but wanted to use the tub anyway. We were able to tilt the cover so that it was leaning slightly over the end of the tub and then we could slide Doc's spa blanket down to make a little awning! It was awsome because it poured buckets and we were under our little tent enjoying the tub and not getting our heads wet in the 50 degree rain! That's what you have to do when you don't have a pergola with a retractable cover :-/ ???
-
I also have a CovermateIII lifter and love it. Saturday night we had a really bad rain storm but wanted to use the tub anyway. We were able to tilt the cover so that it was leaning slightly over the end of the tub and then we could slide Doc's spa blanket down to make a little awning! It was awsome because it poured buckets and we were under our little tent enjoying the tub and not getting our heads wet in the 50 degree rain! That's what you have to do when you don't have a pergola with a retractable cover :-/ ???
I just got my tub and really haven't had a chance to jump in while it's raining, but I've been asking myself what I'll do when the chance arises.
I'm thinkng about a wide brimmed hat? Sombrero, cowboy hat, booney, bucket, etc.
-
We tried the hats, and in a nice gentle rain they would have worked fine. I am talking about monsoon type rain. Like buckets....of water....It was so cool!
-
Drewski,
When replacing your Artesian Heater, be sure to replace with the same, a 4 KW Heater. With a low flow Grundfos Circ Pump, you can not install a 5.5 KW Heater. It will burn up, due to lower flow output from the Gundfos.
At 7 Years, I would agree, that your UV Ozonator is bad. You can replace it with any UV or CD Ozonator, just remember to purchase one with the same voltage and plug configuration.
As for the Wateway Jets, they also can be puchased on line or from your local dealer, the internals are inexpensive and take seconds to pop out and replce.
For the cover, Doc offers a real nice cover at tough price to beat. I also like Sunstar Covers.
As for the replacement of the Grundfos Pump, you may want to replace with the same. Your Grundfos Pumps, is plumbed with 3/4" Tubing, which is proper for that pump. If you install a larger Circ Pump, it will usually require larger plumbing, like 1 1/2". I would stick with the same Circ Pump, to avoid problems. Besides, adding a larger Circ Pump will not heat your water faster. You have a 4 KW Heater, that will heat on average about 6 degrees per hour. A 5.5 KW will heat on average about 8 degrees per hour. Spas equipped with a Circ Pump, come with a 4KW Heater. Goodluck. Dave.
-
Hi NJDave and thanks to others who have also replied...
Dave, the circ pump is at the heart of my issue. At most, my 500 gal piper glen will only maintain my water temp in the winter when the cover is off, people are in it and it's running the pumps. So, at 30o to 40o exterior temp, I'll maintain whatever the water temp is when I get in. At 20o to 30o, I start losing about 1o per hour, even with everything running. When the wind is blowing, it's worse. At best, it heats water at 2o per hour with the cover on following a fill.
From what I'm hearing you say, the Grundfos is producing maximum water pressure for the diameter of the hose connecting the pump, heater, suction port and discharge and increasing the pressure further will result in no further increase in flow? I don't know the GPH rating for the Grundfos but I have to tell you that it's producing less flow than I'd get from a garden hose of the same diameter. I certainly appreciate what your saying (and thank you for responding), BUT, I gotta ask, do you have any numbers to back up what your saying? Please don't take me wrong, I appreciate your advice, but I just have a hard time believing that I can't increase the pressure in that line by increasing GPH output , thus allowing me to convert to a 5.5 KW heater.
VINNY: (HI Bro) Could you do me a favor and check the diameter of your circ pump hose and then check to see if you have a 5.5 KW heater in your Artesian? Any other "newer" Piper Glen owners also? I know Artesian switched to 5.5 KW heater elements sometime after 2000 (and I think it's because of the problem I describe) and I'd appreciate any other verification.
BTW, for new readers who don't know me, my closest Artesian dealer is > 150 miles away. My dealer went bust 2 years after he sold me the tub, so I'm doing all my own work.
THANKS!
Drewski
:P
-
My cir pump is a huge 220V circ pump ... so I'm not sure if it applies to your situation.
I think Dave is talking about current models too. My Cayman looses heat too in the winter and it also heats at a slow 3-5 degrees an hour (compared to the 8 that Dave mentioned). With the circ pump upgrade they put in the Piper's heater. If you go onto Artesian's website my heater is the long skinny one that they show.
I will try to check it ... how do you do that?
2004 had the 11 GPM 120 V circ pump but what Dave said is true, faster will make the water come out cooler since it runs past the heater quicker. Slower would have hotter water but would move less water.
-
Thanks Vinny, yep you're right. Sorry about that.
OK, from what I can tell, the Grundfos I have uses a 1" barb fitting and is rated for 570 GPH. This means I turn over the water volume of the tub roughly one time per hour. The heating element of my current heater is a 4 KW model.
From research, I'm looking at a Waterway "Tiny Might" (http://www.usspaparts.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl/SID=1145990794.30493/page=cat_pumpsc_waterway.htm)circ pump, also with 1" barbs, that's rated at 1080 GPH, basically double my current pump. I've also identified a Brett Aqualine 5.5 KW or Gecko replacement 5.5 KW (http://www.usspaparts.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl/SID=1145990794.30493/page=cat_ht_assemblies.htm), both matching the description of my current heater except 5.5 KW instead of 4 KW, as potential replacement heaters.
In comparative terms, this would result in a 90% increase in circulation volume and 38% increase in heating capacity, both assuming no loss from work and friction. I remember last year that Stewart recommended upgrading the circ pump to address my issue, but he wasn't too optimistic about the heater.
I wish I could get some more tech guys to comment on this thread...
THANKS again Vinny...
Drewski
8)
-
I don't know if you thought of this or if this would even apply. Nor do I know how one could check for this with out talking to the manufacturer.
Some other possible concerns --
1. Will the increase in pressure result in other fitting becoming loose ? (I.E. were they designed for the higher pressure) or can they withstand the "constant" longterm change in pressure.
2. I presume the heater gets its power via a 220v relay that is controled by the main board. Are the relay contacts rated to handle the increase in current?
3. Will any safety features become disabled or not function correctly due to the change in flow rate, change in heat rate, and the others I can't think of?
r100rs
-
Hi r100rs:
Thanks for the post! Here's what I know:
1. Will the increase in pressure result in other fitting becoming loose ? (I.E. were they designed for the higher pressure) or can they withstand the "constant" longterm change in pressure.
I don't "think" so, the hose in there looks like it could handle the pressure and the barb ends are the same. I could run new hose just so I don't have issues. BTW, on the tub fitting end, the water stream coming out only projects about 2 FT from the end and isn't very strong, so it's hardly under any pressure now.
2. I presume the heater gets its power via a 220v relay that is controled by the main board. Are the relay contacts rated to handle the increase in current?
Yep, the board connection is rated for 5.5 KW which is where I got the idea from in the first place.
3. Will any safety features become disabled or not function correctly due to the change in flow rate, change in heat rate, and the others I can't think of?
I'm not certain and that's why I posted here but it looks like not many of the tech guys are saying anything..... :-/
ANYWAY, thanks for the help!
Drewski
8)
-
hi Drewski
I have a 2005 piper glen tub with a 4kw heater. I thought that it was coming with the 5.5 kw heater but when check amp draw of tub with heater and circ pumps on, the amp draw was to low for 5.5 kw, but was ok for 4 kw. I called dealer and he told me that ALL the tubs came with 4 kw heaters??? My tub does ok holding temp, we had a few parties during the holidays and the tub had 5 to 8 people in it, or sitting inside but on edge for about five to six hours on cold nights. The max drop I was was about 5 to 6 degrees...
About the pump, if you pump more gpm's with same about of heat (4kw) you will only change the rise in temperature (delta T). To get more heat, faster, you would have to change pump and heater. This would give you more heat and more flow. I haven't looked much inside my tub, is the cir pump body metal (bronze) or plastic. grunfos has many pumps in that size, check thier website. They also have one now that is three speeds at the pump, you select which flow rate work the best for you, but this pump is acast iron body, could not use in tub. I will send them a e-mail asking if the multi-speed pump comes in bronze body????
I work with this stuff all day, (heating & A/C) If I get any info, I'll get back to you!
If I remember right, Are you in MA, I'm in Dracut, MA
John
-
You don't have a 240 V pump in your 2005 Piper?
I thought they changed all the circ pumps to 240 ... when I first saw it I thought it was a therapy pump, it's that big.
-
Drewski,
Sorry, for just getting back to you. Been out of commission the past couple days. With your 1" tubing plumbed and attached to your circ pump, just about the only higher output GPM circ pump, you could switch to, would be the the Tiny Mite, by Water way. Which is the pump you mentioned. As stated before, switching to higher GPM Circ Pump alone, while it will increase GPM'S, it will not increase your temperature rise per hour. With a slightly higher output tinymite circ pump, you still can "not" add a 5 KW Heater Element. It will burn up quickly. I promise. I see it every month, when I come behind inexperienced techs, that unknowingly, replace a 4 KW Element with a 5.5 KW. The result is always the same, elements burning up within a week. Manufacturers with circ pumps, install 4 KW Heaters. Companies, with 2 spd pumps, will typically use 5.5 KW Elements. All Artesian Spas equipped a circ pump, come with a 4 KW. In early 2005, Artesian switched to a much higher output 1 1/2" plumbed full sized 48 inch frame motor circ pump, putting out 3 times as much flow as your Grundfos and they still use a 4 KW Element. I like your idea of switching, the circ pump to the tiny mite, I have chosen that pump, as the replacement to a Grundfos many times and have had good success with it on late 90's Artesians like yours. It will work fine with a 4 KW. Goodluck. Let me know how things go. Dave.
-
THANKS jcmsrv and NJDave,
THAT's what I wanted to hear! From Dave's comments, I'm thinking he KNOWS what he's talking about. John, I forgot my basic thermodynamics and when you mentioned delta T, it slapped me right upside the head. It's the RATE of change that's my problem, NOT capacity.
Again, THANKS guys...
Oh, and VINNY, thanks too BRO, also all others who responded. I sincerely appreciate the help. I'll update with pics when I start working on this...
Andy
P.S., I'm in Virginia Beach, Virginia
:D
-
hi NJDAVE!
What is the flow requirements for a 5.5 kw heater installed in a spa??? Are they burning up because the pump is not moving enough flow(gpm)??? What is a normal rise in temp. across a heater with the correct flow. Most manufs. must have this type of info????
Do Spa companies provide a "shop manual" for the service techs??? Can a owner buy one of these???
Do spa companies rate flow rate by pump flow?/ (pressure rise across pump) or by measuring with flowmeter across pump???
Thanks for your time.
john