Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stuart on March 05, 2006, 08:54:22 pm
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I sit here and try to read many of these posts without bias or contempt but between the direction the industry has gone over the last year or so and the constant swing of product based off of new customer input I'm really wearing down...
So here is my ranting
1. If you buy a spa over internet you an extreme risk taker. If you recommend someone else buy over the internet your not trustworthy if they take your advice they're a fool and, if you sell spas over the internet you could be a predator.
2. Justify whatever you want in insulation but if my builder tells me that he is going to take 40% of the insulation from around my hot water pipes and "use the dead air space to capture heat" he's fired! Likewise if he suggests that it will be easier to fix leaks I will have to question the ability of his plumber.
3. Good wood cabinets are not a stupid investment...Rails and ledges that can collect dirt and moisture are.
4. Three things matter at the end of the day; Hot clean water, Comfortable Seating and good jets.
If you spend more than 1/4 of your time pitching frame, shell, insulation or warranty you probably lack in one of the these three things and are trying to cover.
5. In 20 years CalSpa pissed off as many people as they made happy if not more.
6. In 20 years HotSpring has had similar problems to everyone else but satisfied more customers than the average to keep a good name.
7. Over half of what HotSpring sells now as innovative features they crusaded against 10 years ago.
8. I don't give a crap where your spa is made....I care how it is made. If you use the location of your factory as a reason for how well your spa holds heat you're a fraud and deceptive to your customers.
9. As a customer I don't care how many people can stand on my cover I care how well it holds heat.
10. Do you know how many jets is enough? After almost 17 years I'm not sure I do.....
11. Should a customer really care what frame size a pump is, what the HP is or whether or not is switchless? Isn't the bottom line how well it moves water and the cost of operation?
12. I don't care if you make a heater out of plutonium that lasts 8 to 10 years if the cost of replacement is more than the benefit…stop making it!
13. At what point does the opinion of a person that bought their first spa outweigh years of experience of a professional that has lived the experience for many years? So many myopic, one-sided opinions meant to encourage someone else to follow the same path that you did will be embarrassing years from now when you both have product fail the same way.
14. If more than 10 people from more than 5 different regions of the country have the same complaint about how a product is built, sold or serviced there is probably some truth to it and the root is probably at the manufacture level (that being the common denominator). If you ignore this and buy from that manufacture you will some day, at some level regret it. Don’t try and justify your decision or hide your doubt by becoming a crusader for the brand!
15. 90% of all water quality issues are due to customers…..if you have a problem with your water, CHANGE IT!
16. Unless you put a meter that tests Kilowatt usage directly between the house and the spa you have no idea of how much energy your spa uses. Don’t just assume because you bought a spa and your power bill went up that your spa is using too much energy! Power bills all over the country are astronomical right now.
A spa uses electricity, the more you use that spa - the more electricity it uses. If you can't sleep because your worried about this don’t buy a spa…
17. If you buy a spa from a show or fair from a company that you have never heard of and cannot remember ever seeing a store for only to find that they are less then reputable don’t tell me they “ripped you off”. You gave them that ability.
18. Any factory that consistently sells to someone without a business plan, credit, a brick and mortar store or equity in the community should be boycotted out of the industry.
19. A chemical or accessory company that empowers a virtual entity to undersell a brick and mortar company with live help and customer service should be boycotted.
20. Don’t think that your spa experience is similar to anyone that isn’t you for any reason….
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Wow.
I like it.
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Wow!
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Don't mean to scare you Stuart, but I'm a useless newbie owner and I agree with what you said. :)
Nice rant.
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Stuart, I liked you when I found this site.
I liked you when we started to correcspond.
I disliked you when your attempt to help me got me in hot water.
I liked you when we met.
I love you for your post. Nice.
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hey stu, good points, however, what is the point of this forum then. Its a place to question, vent, compare and enjoy trials and tribulations.
I agree with you, things get blown out of proportion here and people including myself frustrate the hell out of people in the buisness, but lets face it, this forum is a source of information and an outlet to keep your buisness going, so I guess a necessary evil.
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Yeah, but other than that...
:)
OH! Almost forgot - #15 is wrong. It's 99.99999%
Plus a little.
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True-er words could never be spoken.
AMEN & Alleluia
and in terminators case, pass the ammunition.
What make people think they can come in and offer you less than what is fair, and want the extras free?
What makes some sellers think they can unfairly take advantage of honest people and deliver less than they should?
What make honest people think they can make it in this business? But still they try. They are the ones that have struggled to be here 20 years later, when the fast buck artist is here and gone in 5.
Why do people not trust or believe other honest people when they did 30 years ago?
Why is it so hard for people to see the truth, is it because they are blinded by the fast talking wheeler and dealer, or is it because they are not honest themselves and don't believe others could possibly be honest?
Why is it our fault, when they make a bad choice buying off the internet, the warehouse or the big box store, or because there is a $5,000 rebate and need our help to fix their problems?
Why is it our problem when they get sucked in to a great deal and everything goes wrong for the next 6 months?
Why do we struggle so to stay in this business to be thought of so poorly of?
If shoppers could only recognize those of us who are honest and willing to be fair. To be able to recognize we are willing to sell and and deliver quality goods and provide everything the consumers could expect that will last a 15 years and more, IF only they could, everyone would be soaking in Hot Water tonight, enjoying life and their family to the utmost, sleeping better and have a much better outlook on life.
IF ONLY. ;D
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Boscoe, I dont think he was criticizing the forum, just expressing frustration regarding:
1) problems that come up repeatedly, despite the wealth of knowledge here
2) Unsubstantiated claims by manufacturer agents and sales people, customers and newbies (like me)
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Well said Stuart!!!
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That really sums it up well, Stuart. The only thing I'd change is line one. I think I'd have it read "If you buy a spa over internet or from a big box store[/b], you are an extreme risk taker. If you recommend someone else buy over the internet or from a big box store[/b], you're not trustworthy. If they take your advice, they're a fool, and if you sell spas over the internet, you could be a predator.
I also took the liberty of a little grammar clean-up. I hope you don't mind.
Jim
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Great Job Stuart! Good Stuff. Thanks, for taking the time. I enjoyed all twenty points. Dave.
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If I may add....
21. When I take a spa in on trade I charge myself $150 per hour for 2 men, spa dolly, truck, equipment, insurance, lost straps, phones, ect...
When we get it back we put in new seals, replace pillows, jets and usually a heater. Add to that 800 gallons of water for first and second leak test plus the cost of power and labor to make sure it works and stain it (and the stain). Next we put in a set of new filters, new cover and chemical kit.
If you think you can get a better deal from your neighbors cousin that is selling his spa because of divorce then go for it!
If you think I should give you $2000 for your trade that will cost me $1500 to get to the point that I'm comfortable with resell how about you see if Home Depot will take it in trade.
22. People typically break out in a hot tub rash after they have had a party with the neighbor’s kids over and did not add enough sanitizer. This is not a reflection of your spa or your dealer, ask for help...don't blame.
23. Your dealer has a life also that includes Christmas, Easter, Mothers Day and other holidays. They to have families, homes and all the other pressures of life. If they are not jumping through hoops for you at the moment it could be that they're dealing with their problems not ignoring yours. Have compassion on both ends.
24. Cars are essential, furniture is justifiable...spas are a luxury indulgence in most folks minds. When the spa breaks their inner psychosis says "I knew I shouldn't have wasted my savings on this!". If you can't understand this as a dealer and have some grace then change professions!
25. I pay $30K per month to keep my store open....in order to do this I need to make a profit. This means that every hour of wage I pay I need to earn money to offset. We are a facilitator of a warranty...this means that every time a tech comes to your house for a service call its billed to someone, either the factory or the customer. This means if your spa is not running and you don't check the GFI breaker before we come out we will bill you! It's only business.
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Stuart, you have summed it up in understanding terms. Well said. Consumers and shoppers deal with only one Hot Tub experience, theirs. The dealers, well, it is presumed he is in it for the gross profits that are imagined to be greater than they are. What you and other dealers deliver to the end user is far greater than what the internet or the big bos delivers, BUT their price is cheaper, go figure.
But then they still come in to whine.
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Well my friend, you done good! ;)
I've got one more to add...
If you pitch your spa as the "BEST" of anything, you better have the data to back that broad statement up that shows a detailed cross reference with EVERY other spa manufacturer!
If I could change one word in the english language, it would be "BEST". :P
Chin up my friend! Keep in mind that you represent the top 5% of dealers worldwide in knowledge, experience and how to run a spa business!
Steve
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13. At what point does the opinion of a person that bought their first spa outweigh years of experience of a professional that has lived the experience for many years? So many myopic, one-sided opinions meant to encourage someone else to follow the same path that you did will be embarrassing years from now when you both have product fail the same way.
bubba stu,
Considering the exchanges we've had in the past, considering the extreme respect I have for your experience--your livelihood, if you will--considering that I am one of those first time, myopic spa owners, allow me to tackle this one.
Many spa owners, especially to those of us who frequent this and other spa related sites, consider spa ownership a passion. Before the purchase, we were ecstatic with anticipation and wanted to share our joy. After delivery, we were ecstatic with the new spa experience and wanted to share our joy. Subsequently, if the spa lived up to our expectations, we were ecstatic and wanted to share our joy. If the spa failed to live up to our expectations, we were equally enthusiastic about sharing our disappointment.
Many spa retailers, especially those who frequent this and other spa related sites, consider spa retailing a passion as well as a livelihood. They are ecstatic about their product and want to share their joy. If they have had bad experiences with spa manufacturers in the past, they are equally enthusiastic about sharing their disappointment.
The excellent question you pose, bubba stu, should be asked by every reader when reading every post. Many times the opinions of spa users and spa retailers alike are clouded with passion--both good and bad. I don't think it is up to me or you to determine where this line distinction should be drawn. When it comes to the therapy provided and use of features on MY spa, no one knows this better than me. I live with the spa day in and day out. I have invested many hours as well as much money on this device and if someone elicits my opinions regarding my experiences with my spa, I'm gonna tell'em exactly how I feel. Yes, it is only one spa that I know but I know it pretty darn well. When it comes to the troubleshooting, repair, replacement of components of spas, the retailer's opinion reins supreme and the retailers here have a wealth of experience that is a treasure for those of us who are myopic--and I'll speak for all when I say thank you for sharing.
There is no global line to be drawn. Instead there are as many lines to be drawn as there are posts.
BTW, thanks for your rants.....well done.
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Stuart and JMcD: you both sound like dealers frustrated by unappreciative, demanding and sometimes ignorant clients, and sabotaged by the few members of your dealer community that lead you to be equated with a "used cars salesman". (To the honest, straightforward car dealers out there- sorry- but you know the "type" I am generalizing just for illustration) While I COMPLETELY share your pain and I think that all you had to say makes sense, I'd say that my opinion is this is not a SPA issue- what service/sales industry does NOT have these problems? It is a human nature issue. The negatives in people tend to stick to us:
" What make people think they can come in and offer you less than what is fair, and want the extras free?
What makes some sellers think they can unfairly take advantage of honest people and deliver less than they should? "
I'm not trying to demean what you had to say, but just putting it out there that these issues are EVERYWHERE. And anyone asking advice here is responsible for what they do with that advice:
"At what point does the opinion of a person that bought their first spa outweigh years of experience of a professional that has lived the experience for many years? So many myopic, one-sided opinions meant to encourage someone else to follow the same path that you did will be embarrassing years from now when you both have product fail the same way. "
An intelligent consumer on this forum does take ALL comments here with a grain of salt, so to speak. And if they dont, it is their own fault. Just because some "newbie" (like me! ;) ) might spout a bunch of advice based on one week or one month of spa ownership, doesn't mean that those comments are weighed as heavily by another reader as something coming from a more established member.
Those of us new to this forum and to Spa-life in general really do appreciate the insights and FREE ADVICE that you veteran dealers and spa enthusiasts offer. Don't let the shortsighted, ignorant, vindictive few people get to you.
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stuart...
I aapearcaite your honesty and openness ....Simply in any type of retail there are those who have have unrealistic expectation's and we can never simply please them nor do they really want understand or learn about the product they have purchased but there are also those who are just the opposite and do appreciate all of your efforts ...I think what makes spas so tough for so many is that people are unfamiliar with them and what actually in the end matters....I have mentioned this before but with little feed back but while so many compare it to autos ....I think because of the cost....it is nothing like buying a car....manily because everyone reading this grew up riding in car and knows something about them.....while very few really know anything about a spa and think thats what makes it so tough and YES .....there are those dealers and makers who play to this....and for those who try and do the right thing it is tough at times....I think the dealers who are here are those who regardless of the line they carry truly want to do the right thing and obviously do believe in the product they represent .....but are here just to help where they can....and I think we all (dealers) bite our lips from time to time.....but it is what makes this board one of the best out there....So to You......Chas......Steve....JMCD.....Sales Devil........Term.....NJD...and all the others.....I say Thank you....and to all of the great owners here also.......
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I'd say that my opinion is this is not a SPA issue- what service/sales industry does NOT have these problems? It is a human nature issue. The negatives in people tend to stick to us:
" What make people think they can come in and offer you less than what is fair, and want the extras free?
That says it all !! The actions of human customers in every business from restaurants to dry cleaners to car dealers and yes to spa dealers. It is the human factor that is frustrating. That's for sure.
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Stu-
You really are sharp these past few days. Being a dealer myself, I appreciate everything you said. Wow and Thank You!
Venus
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BTW it's nice to see you back Stuart! Even if you are a ranting old spa warrior. :-*
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Hey thanks to all of you other old spa warriors that appreciated this! I'm glad at least a few of you got it.
JMcD,
Thanks for the call today, always good to share a laugh with a kindered spirit! Remember, one day when I'm able to snatch the bromine tablet from your hand I too will be a master!! ;)
Windy,
You are the epitome of a customer that shares good experience well. You also do a good job of understanding other sides. If I had another Master Spa hat I would send it to you (sorry I can't tell you how I destroyed them it would frighten you, at least I sent you the good ones)
I'm very proud to see Mendo, Steve, Chas, HotTubMan, salesdvl, windsurfdog and spahappy all posted on this. Kinda felt like old home week. ;)
If the content of my ranting hurt your feelings then you might resemble something I said and need to do some examining....
Ralph Waldo Emerson said "Never underestimate the ability for the human mind to avoid intellectual thought at any physical means possible"
I truly believe that there is a large group of people that have an uncontrollable urge to think with little or no capability to do so!! ;D 8)
;)
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If the content of my ranting hurt your feelings then you might resemble something I said and need to do some examining....
Stuart,
I think that if you perceived some of us feeling attacked or hurt, it was not necessarily that we need to do some examining. I think that while you had wonderful things to say in your "rant" and your comments about the home show, you did come across, for someone who does not know you, as bitter and in need of a break. This may not have been your intention, but it did feel like you labelled "all" customers as greedy and ignornant (which is NOT a crime, even if stupidity should be). As a newcommer to this site, I felt alientated, and felt like I should be apologizing for something I did not do. You are right, that this forum is a PERFECT arena for venting, but it felt like the venting was AT us, not TO us, if that makes sense. I did not so much pick up on humor in your conversations with customers as I did contempt.
Just putting my perception out there if you got some responses you did not expect.
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Ralph Waldo Emerson said "Never underestimate the ability for the human mind to avoid intellectual thought at any physical means possible"
I thought Ralph Waldo Emerson said "Pull My Finger."
Maybe that was Ralph Waldo Cramden.
I cant remember.
;) ;)
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Just putting my perception out there if you got some responses you did not expect.
Anne,
Thanks. That was a very good post.
:)
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Anne,
Thanks. That was a very good post.
:)
I agree....Thanks!
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Hey thanks to all of you other old spa warriors that appreciated this! I'm glad at least a few of you got it.
I'm very proud to see Mendo, Steve, Chas, HotTubMan, salesdvl, windsurfdog and spahappy all posted on this. Kinda felt like old home week. ;)
;)
It's nice to know that a TP vs FF debate, and a rant from an old spa warrior can bring us all back together again. ;D
I've missed you guys! BTW where's Lori?
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YEAH good point SH...I miss my Lori... :-[ :-*
She doesn't even call anymore.... OK, she never did but still....
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Stuart,
We have a new saying in the store,
"We can no longer expend all of our energy helping people who have made poor buying decisions."
In the past, we spent alot of time and energy trying to help spa customers who purchased poor products and can't get help from whom they purchased. This may sound harsh ( and does to me because I a desire to help) but they made the decision and now they have to live with it.
"Even crummy spa companies have a few satisfied customers (not very many)."
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We service our customers, that's it. If someone chooses to buy a SpankySpa down the road, they can get them to service it (until they change brands, which happens every 6 mos). Then, when their only option left is to trade it in on a new spa, we are happy to haul their old one off for them.
If we don't get them the first time, we usually do the second time around.
Terminator
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We service our customers, that's it. If someone chooses to buy a SpankySpa down the road, they can get them to service it (until they change brands, which happens every 6 mos). Then, when their only option left is to trade it in on a new spa, we are happy to haul their old one off for them.
If we don't get them the first time, we usually do the second time around.
Terminator
Here is another example from the show that fits these last two posts.
A guy came in and started asking price...after a few questions I found that he had a two year old spa from a competitor in town that has a bad reputation. He liked the spa and his salesman a lot but didn't care for the owner of the company much.
I offered him a discount on Chemicals to come in and try our store out and gave him some maintenance ideas including a frequent problem in our area - how to ground his spa properly...We get a ton of lightning and surge issues on this competitors tub because many electricians don't ground it properly.
He was estatic with the info and said that no had ever given him maintenance ideas like that. He promised to come in the store and wanted more business cards to refer friends.
I believe that if you don't take the opportunity to help someone that made a poor decision your missing out on potential referrals.
Two years ago I helped a local pharmacist with a circ pump issue on his Cal…He wasn’t pleased with their service and we just sold him a pump and showed him how to put it in. Since then he has referred at least two spas then purchased a new one himself this year, this week he bought a pool table, foosball and Ping-Pong for his church.
You just never know….
I do see rockets point however; you can’t take away from the customers you sold to help someone that bought elsewhere. It’s a tough juggling act at times.
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As a company, we do not wish to try and service every monkey-pickin' spa that comes along. We have sold the same brand (HotSpring) for 21 years. We do not have parts for other spas, we cannot get parts for other spas, we have no desire to service other spas. We take care of our own and do not wish to be all things to all people. We've got enough spas in the field (dozens of them over 15 years old) to keep us hopping.
That's just our policy as a company. I'll try to help anyone that walks through the door as much as I can. But I don't have filters for Gulf Coast Spas and I can't get a pump seal for a Sunbelt or a new pillow for a D-1. I usually end up directing them to Dr. Spa's website. :)
Terminator
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As a company, we do not wish to try and service every monkey-pickin' spa that comes along. We have sold the same brand (HotSpring) for 21 years. We do not have parts for other spas, we cannot get parts for other spas, we have no desire to service other spas. We take care of our own and do not wish to be all things to all people. We've got enough spas in the field (dozens of them over 15 years old) to keep us hopping.
That's just our policy as a company. I'll try to help anyone that walks through the door as much as I can. But I don't have filters for Gulf Coast Spas and I can't get a pump seal for a Sunbelt or a new pillow for a D-1. I usually end up directing them to Dr. Spa's website. :)
Terminator
I think Stuart is saying is, that he tries to help "people" and it is not based on what spa they have. We can appreciate your only wanting to help those who bought your spa, as you are a salesperson and that is your only purpose. It is apparent you only help those who buy from you, and orphans or people with problems are not your forte. That would be "church work" helping others and it is not profitable.
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By directing them to Dr. Spas website Term is trying to be helpful.
I'll help anybody out on water chemistry problems because I know if I didn't get the spa, I'll have the chemical business from them. This can, and does lead to a dealer customer relationship that can turn into a spa sale down the road. ;)
We have recently decided that we will not work on other brands of spas. This has less to do with hurt feelings and attutude over losing a sale, than the problems in getting parts and being familar with service issues and constuction of other brands.
Once you service that off-brand you own it and all it's future service issues. If we service an off-brand because the original spa company is no longer in business, the customer will be grateful for the first few times and we'll end up looking like the hero. But if this spa continues to break down, it will now be us that he or she directs their anger at. Even though we did not sell the POS in the first place.
It's a no win situation....
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I do help the disenfranchised. As the only remaining dealer in town, I have to.
I used to thing it was a giant waste of my time - I would chase a part through the various catalogs, order it and have it shipped in - and then sell it to them with a smile, for a $6 markup. But that works out to about negative $100 profit if you were counting my time.
However, I have years (decades) of experience working on other brands, so I can actually help these people, and to strip myself of absolutely any remaining altruism, the simple fact of the matter is that someday these folks will need a new cover, a new filter, and who knows? They may one day decide to trade up to a new spa.
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I was writing my post as SpaHappy's went up. I do agree, that there are times when caution is the better part of valor: Yes, there are times when I feel that the spa will never work right, and I have to tell them so.
There are things to do in those situations: I will send a different tech out to offer an opinion, I will show them the fried parts I have replaced, sometimes I have to meet with them there at the spa to show them why such-and-such is never going to work, etc. Often, I have to simply try to gently tell them that they did, in fact, buy a bad design and that I have replace dozens of the same part in other similar spas over the past ten years...
And sometimes, writing off a $75 house-call is the cheapest way out: as SH said, sometimes they think you own the spa once you have tried to help them.
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I do help the disenfranchised. As the only remaining dealer in town, I have to.
I used to thing it was a giant waste of my time - I would chase a part through the various catalogs, order it and have it shipped in - and then sell it to them with a smile, for a $6 markup. But that works out to about negative $100 profit if you were counting my time.
However, I have years (decades) of experience working on other brands, so I can actually help these people, and to strip myself of absolutely any remaining altruism, the simple fact of the matter is that someday these folks will need a new cover, a new filter, and who knows? They may one day decide to trade up to a new spa.
I think I've figured out how you've managed to stay in business so long. I'm sure you sleep well at night and I imagine your customers do as well.
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I agree with the dealers that don’t service the tubs they haven’t sold. If I owned my own business I would not do outside service on spas, that my business did not sell, due to the many reasons listed above. I think the main reason, for me, would be the inability to get paid on a $1,000 worth of labor from a leaking spa.
However, I would test their water and buy new parts for the customer if they brought in the defective part. Nothing like the mark-ups on chemicals and parts. Oh, and don’t forget that $6.95 shipping and handling charge on special orders.
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Sure, I test their water and try to help them. Sure I sympathize with them and offer to take their spa in on trade. Sure I write down web addresses which might help them get the parts their dealer won't help them with.
Will we send our guys out to work on a D-1, Marquis, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Aries, Gulf Coast spa? No. Do we have parts that will fit on these spas? No. Do we want to be responsible for ordering parts and servicing these spas? No. Is there money to be made off the misfortune of others? Yes, but not by us.
Our customers bought a spa from us because they have faith in us servicing them. It's a crying shame the other dealers don't take care of their customers the way we take care of ours. And we won't put our customers on the back burner to take care of theirs.
Terminator
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And sometimes, writing off a $75 house-call is the cheapest way out: as SH said, sometimes they think you own the spa once you have tried to help them.
Happened this week...Helped a guy out with a spa that we didn't sell becuase he had a ton of problems. Factory offered him a new spa for a very cheap price even though he was just out of warrenty, he declined.
We picked up his spa, shipped it back to the factory for a refurbish, then re-delivered it and got the factory to pick up the bill.
Upon delivery he asked that we set the spa further from the electrical. This exposed some of his line out of the flex conduit and put pressure on the elbow on the other end causing it to crack. He now wants us to replace his electrical...
In addition to this he had some old yard lights and he claims one of my guys broke one. It is a discontinued model from Home Depot so now he wants us to replace all of his lights in his yard so they match at our expense.
We didn't sell him the spa, we didn't charge any extra charge, we simply tried to do a nice thing and it's comming back to haunt us.
I will probably fix his light, replace his lights and depending on his attitude ask him to find another dealer. Sometimes you have to let a customer go elsewhere for both of your sanity....
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Incredible! Like so many spoiled children - folks seem to feel they can always get something for nothing and blame someone else for all their problems!!
I sympathize with dealers at this level. On the consumers side - I know what it is like to be lied to and taken advantage of because you don't know any better. Today's consumer is becoming better informed thank goodness.
Selling and supporting a quality product is a simple concept. When you branch out into supporting a 'possible' customer with an off brand product - you buy a whole new set of problems.
Barring a few execptions - most folks just want to be treated fairly - have their concerns listened to and a reasonable solution offered. If you can't help them - offer where they can get help. This is what I've found this forum to be most helpful for - where to go to find out what I need to know.
my two cents worth ;)