Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Vinny on March 03, 2006, 11:29:49 am
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The recent thread of the FF vs TP debate made me experiment on my FF Artesian tub.
Since my water has a ton of foam (I give up!!), I plan on changing my water tonight due to the foam.
The temp was 102 F and I lowered the temp all the way (56 F) at 3:30 PM on Wed. I didn't open the cover until 6:30 AM this morning and the temp was 89 F (And still a lot of foam). In 40 hours my tub lost 13 F for about 0.3 F an hour.
My circ pump was running the whole time, ozonator for 5 hours every 12 and the outside temps were between 23 F and 36 F. Here in Jersey, it was rainy and sleeting so I don't think my tub saw any sunlight. It is somewhat shielded by the wind but wind does get to the tub.
I originally commented that I thought my tub's pretty efficient based on a electrical glitch but this time I did it with a "scientific method". And now I know it's efficient.
I know this'll probably open up another can of worms! ;D
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In a fit of ignorance on my part, I had shut down power to my hot tub a few weeks ago to do some service work.
I go out to get a nice soak and the temp reads 99 degrees (Usually keep it at 103). Perplexed at first, then I realized I forgot to restore power!
I am IMPRESSED. The tub only lost 4 degrees in 48 hours. Outside temps were 9 degrees overnight and 28 -30 during the days.
No wonder Marquis is so highly rated!
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For those not up on Artesian spas, they are Full Foamed.
There is no doubt in my mind that if you cut the power to a FF tub and a TP Tub that water will retain heat longer in the FF tub. I'm curious if anyone has claimed that a TP tub's water would hold it's temp longer than FF under a power outage?
The argument is that TP keeps the pumps warmer in case of a power outage and is better protection from PUMP freezing.
The other key issue odf debate is TP is more effeicient since it Reclaims the heat given off by the pump motors. However, a FF tub retains water temp in the shell better. IMO
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Forgot to add --- The foam issue, has been a thorn in my side too.
We wash our suits (when we wear them) in plain water and let them drip dry.
No one besides us uses the tub, but every once in awhile we get this huge foaming problem. I just add the anti-foam and it takes care of the issues within minutes, but what the heck is causing this problem to keep repeating?
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Forgot to add --- The foam issue, has been a thorn in my side too.
We wash our suits (when we wear them) in plain water and let them drip dry.
No one besides us uses the tub, but every once in awhile we get this huge foaming problem. I just add the anti-foam and it takes care of the issues within minutes, but what the heck is causing this problem to keep repeating?
Synp,
We are going to confuse folks talking about Full Foam insulation and a tub full of foam in the same topic . ;)
I too battle foam. Mostly it's from visitors who insist on wearing a suit. When it's just me and the wife au natural, the tub is pretty good.
I have tried foam down, but found it clouds up the water. Some folks say rather than pour the foam down into the tub, they use a spray bottle and spray a minimal amount of FD on the foam, minimmizing the amout of FD used and in therory less cloudy results. I've yet to try this and may give it a whirl the next time I have a problem.
I'd like to hear from others how they tackle the foam issue.
I found if I balance the water to a "T" and then add clarifier (which cause a BOATLOAD of foaming) scoop out the foam and let it go for a day, it's usually back pretty good. But I think there has to be a better way????
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There is no question that a FF tub will retain vessel water temp better because it has more insulation on it. The argument is the plumbing in the equipment area will freeze even if the vessel looses very little as this area is not insulated and is exposed to outside temps. But in a TP tub assuming the equipment area is insulated like the rest of the side walls the vessel warmth will radiate into the air space between vessel and side wall keeping the plumbing warmer. This will however draw warmth from the vessel and it will logicly loose temp in the vessel quicker but this will also prevent freeze damage to plumbing for a longer period of time than the FF design. Most freeze repairs I see are in the equipment area first then up into foam if left to freeze for a longer period.
Both methods of insulation have upsides and downsides. If a TP type tub is not insulated properly or is vented to the outside, during a power down situation it will loose heat faster and freeze as quick if not quicker than a FF designed tub. If a FF tub becomes powered down during extreme cold the vented equipment area will freeze quickly while the vessel and jet lines will last a long time.
The reclaiming heat from motor usage thing is great if your tub runs all day or most of the day but this effects pump longevity. But why not use it when you can during filtration 4-8 hrs a day. A small circulation pump for heating and water circulation is the most energy effiecient method in my opinion with a trade off for possible freeze damage, but this can be overcome very easiely with a light bulb. If it can't be a combination of the 2 styles of insulation done right.
A combination will give you extended vessel heat retention yet allow some heat transfer to air space during power down situations to protect plumbing. And allow heat transfer back to the vessel or an increased R-Factor at the minumum, during filtration.
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I am going to do this just to prove you wrong yet again drewster. I understand your point and your feelings about this age long debate, but, I am going to finally be able to say that you are right or wrong. If, and only if, I am relative to the temps that have been listed here, I dont want to hear you slam arctic spas because of the FF TP debate anymore. Deal???
Also, to add, the two coldest months of the year this year, Dec. and Jan. average temp from the weather network was -6 in December and -9 in January, not including windchill.
So with TP, my bill went up 17.00 canadian from last year. That includes the cost of hydro going up. last year I never owned a tub
So for average running in cold climate I would strongly suggest to you that TP is EQUAL TO FF not saying better or claiming to say better.
My TP tub is hollow in the cabinet but remember, the it is foamed all the way around to create a seal.
So in 48 hours, I will let you know my results and that should settle it. Cold canadian climate I will give you the temperatures here and all that other good stuff.
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Synp,
We are going to confuse folks talking about Full Foam insulation and a tub full of foam in the same topic . ;)
I too battle foam. Mostly it's from visitors who insist on wearing a suit. When it's just me and the wife au natural, the tub is pretty good.
I have tried foam down, but found it clouds up the water. Some folks say rather than pour the foam down into the tub, they use a spray bottle and spray a minimal amount of FD on the foam, minimmizing the amout of FD used and in therory less cloudy results. I've yet to try this and may give it a whirl the next time I have a problem.
I'd like to hear from others how they tackle the foam issue.
I found if I balance the water to a "T" and then add clarifier (which cause a BOATLOAD of foaming) scoop out the foam and let it go for a day, it's usually back pretty good. But I think there has to be a better way????
Good advice. One thing I do is run the jets at top speed and then get the leaf blower and blow all the foam off the surface. Works like a charm.
Sorry for taking the direction of this thread to the South!
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I am going to do this just to prove you wrong yet again drewster. I understand your point and your feelings about this age long debate, but, I am going to finally be able to say that you are right or wrong. If, and only if, I am relative to the temps that have been listed here, I dont want to hear you slam arctic spas because of the FF TP debate anymore. Deal???
Also, to add, the two coldest months of the year this year, Dec. and Jan. average temp from the weather network was -6 in December and -9 in January, not including windchill.
So with TP, my bill went up 17.00 canadian from last year. That includes the cost of hydro going up. last year I never owned a tub
So for average running in cold climate I would strongly suggest to you that TP is EQUAL TO FF not saying better or claiming to say better.
My TP tub is hollow in the cabinet but remember, the it is foamed all the way around to create a seal.
So in 48 hours, I will let you know my results and that should settle it. Cold canadian climate I will give you the temperatures here and all that other good stuff.
Bosco.
I have NEVER slamed Artic. Absolutey not. In fact, Just the opposite. I will assume you have me confused with someone else. Or you are just a bit paranoid.
I have struggled with the costs and benifits of each method and if you can come up with some decent data points I am for that. Bring some data and or observations, I would love to talk semi intelligently about it.
B ut shut me down? ok..... yet again? WTF ?
???
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Good advice. One thing I do is run the jets at top speed and then get the leaf blower and blow all the foam off the surface. Works like a charm.
Sorry for taking the direction of this thread to the South!
I tired this the other day.
My wife thought I was nuts. It's 10 degress outside and I've got the leaf blower over the hot tub. It worked ok for me.
I have leared to super dose the clarifier on windy days and just leave the top off for a bit.
(Stand up wind)
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I don't recall drewstar ever slamming Arctic or any other brand. He plays it pretty much middle of the road in my observations.
Terminator
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Here's another thing to think about ... for 11 hours 59 minutes and 30 seconds my three therapy pumps are sitting in an uninsulated cavity getting cold. For 30 seconds every 12 hours my tub blows this cold water and air into the insulated vessel to clear the lines ... BRRR!!
So if my tub lost power and it came on before the 2 inch pipes froze solid, the tub will do this every 12 hours. Actually if it triggered the freeze protection then my pumps will operate once an hour until frozen solid.
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I bet Boso one shiney new Fargo cap (complete with furry ear flaps, which he can wear to keep warm while in his tub) if he can show me were I slammed artic. ;D
(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2828/bosocsgift5fc.jpg)
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Forgot to add --- The foam issue, has been a thorn in my side too.
We wash our suits (when we wear them) in plain water and let them drip dry.
No one besides us uses the tub, but every once in awhile we get this huge foaming problem. I just add the anti-foam and it takes care of the issues within minutes, but what the heck is causing this problem to keep repeating?
My son went in with a freshly washed suit and I had some foam, I then added enzyme and now I have FOAM. So I truely have a FULL FOAM TUB! ;) ;D
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my appologies, I meant to say end the TP FF debate. Not paranoid, however, the drugs that I tried in college keep coming back in my system.
I saw Tman after your post and just jumped to that, I believe it was infact a case of misktaken identity, however, I would still really like that hat.
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my appologies, I meant to say end the TP FF debate. Not paranoid, however, the drugs that I tried in college keep coming back in my system.
I saw Tman after your post and just jumped to that, I believe it was infact a case of misktaken identity, however, I would still really like that hat.
No Problem. Sorry If I got defensive. Kumbaya and all that. Attack me, but don't blindside me please. :)
But i would like some decent data. I go over to numbnuts site and see what he's discussing and I get really peeved what he passes as fact and data ...cripesake. It makes us look like MIT scientists.
;)
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what info would you like to see. This is all subjective and I cant control for the obvious reasons, weather, or replicate other variables for a full foam. This is just for piece of mind, based on current weather and the tub open. Thats it. I dont know how sound it will be but its worth a shot.
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I know we don't have the means to do this but...
What is the average temp in the air space,
how hot does it get?
I would like to see data on fridgid cold nights, top open, a meter on the heater, a meter on the pumps, a thermometer in the cabinet and a thermometer in the water. I'd like this compared to a FF tub set up the same.
:D
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Here's another thing to think about ... for 11 hours 59 minutes and 30 seconds my three therapy pumps are sitting in an uninsulated cavity getting cold. For 30 seconds every 12 hours my tub blows this cold water and air into the insulated vessel to clear the lines ... BRRR!!
So if my tub lost power and it came on before the 2 inch pipes froze solid, the tub will do this every 12 hours. Actually if it triggered the freeze protection then my pumps will operate once an hour until frozen solid.
This statement I made is untrue, i realized that my circ pump has a 1/2" or 3/4" line running to all the pumps and I believe I get some flow of water through it.
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I know we don't have the means to do this but...
What is the average temp in the air space,
how hot does it get?
I would like to see data on fridgid cold nights, top open, a meter on the heater, a meter on the pumps, a thermometer in the cabinet and a thermometer in the water. I'd like this compared to a FF tub set up the same.
:D
Why would we need to monitor all that. Why not pick two tubs in the same area with roughly the same useage and gallons and put them on a dedicated meter. We could compile the data over several months.
I'm sure if I offered an in-store chemical credit, I could find a Jacuzzi and a Coleman customer of mine that would participate in our study. It would be worth every penny to put end end to this debate....
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OK, It's 6:00 PM and the tubs at 88 F, thats 53 1/2 hours. It's colder than I anticipated and the wind has kicked up ... I ain't changing the water tonight.
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The truth is, the success of Thermo Pane concept is based upon the tub running. The open air space is being heated by the heat coming off the pumps, plain and simple. The warm air created by motors operating offset, the cold air rushing into the cabinet, due to a lack of insulation. The trouble comes when their is a power outage or GFCI Breaker Trip, due to a electrical short in the spa. Then the truth comes out. Thermo Pane insulated spas, whether it be the cut 3/4" styro foam panel attached to the cabinet or the 1/4 " thick aluminum foil, will do very little to keep the cold air from flooding into the entire spa cainet, exposing all of the plumbing, pumps and equipment. As a service tech, I can tell TP is the huge looser, if the spa is dead. With a dead spa, with temps in the 20's, the pipes or equipment, is frozen in 24 hours. And you can not just judge, by sticking a thermometer in your water, because half of that is your cover is doing a good job, keeping temperatures up. Your water temperature up top could be 50 degrees, but the water in your pipes could be frozen. I deal with it all winter. The comparison, you are doing with Bosco, is not equall. You are both turning down you temp settings, but he is benefiting from the heat coming off the motors on the set cycles. Just like a light bulb, a running motor produces a lot of heat.The only real test, is to turn off the breaker and shut down the spa and cover up. Now you will see if Aluminum foil or an entire cavity filled with foam is better. And remember a good fitting spa cover will keep upper water temps pretty good, what is in your pipes underneath, water or icebergs? TP does a decent job of when the spa is running, not as good as Full, but sufficient. When the spa is not running, the difference is so extreme, like a JV High School Football Team playing a NFL Team. Call it my opinions, but it comes from 20 years of experience repairing frozen spas and saving spas while freezing or about to freeze. If you are fully foamed, you are protected, if your not, your not.
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The truth is, the success of Thermo Pane concept is based upon the tub running. The open air space is being heated by the heat coming off the pumps, plain and simple. The warm air created by motors operating offset, the cold air rushing into the cabinet, due to a lack of insulation. The trouble comes when their is a power outage or GFCI Breaker Trip, due to a electrical short in the spa. Then the truth comes out. Thermo Pane insulated spas, whether it be the cut 3/4" styro foam panel attached to the cabinet or the 1/4 " thick aluminum foil, will do very little to keep the cold air from flooding into the entire spa cainet, exposing all of the plumbing, pumps and equipment. As a service tech, I can tell TP is the huge looser, if the spa is dead. With a dead spa, with temps in the 20's, the pipes or equipment, is frozen in 24 hours. And you can not just judge, by sticking a thermometer in your water, because half of that is your cover is doing a good job, keeping temperatures up. Your water temperature up top could be 50 degrees, but the water in your pipes could be frozen. I deal with it all winter. The comparison, you are doing with Bosco, is not equall. You are both turning down you temp settings, but he is benefiting from the heat coming off the motors on the set cycles. Just like a light bulb, a running motor produces a lot of heat.The only real test, is to turn off the breaker and shut down the spa and cover up. Now you will see if Aluminum foil or an entire cavity filled with foam is better. And remember a good fitting spa cover will keep upper water temps pretty good, what is in your pipes underneath, water or icebergs? TP does a decent job of when the spa is running, not as good as Full, but sufficient. When the spa is not running, the difference is so extreme, like a JV High School Football Team playing a NFL Team. Call it my opinions, but it comes from 20 years of experience repairing frozen spas and saving spas while freezing or about to freeze. If you are fully foamed, you are protected, if your not, your not.
Actually the comparison "just happened", it wasn't a challenge. I had my inspection, saw the foam and decided "change the water". Unfortunately as what usually happens to me is that I ran out of time and I lowered the heater (why heat the water I'm going to change) and forgot. I went out this morning and saw the lower temps and realized my heater was turned down and since I knew what time it was when I turned it down and the weather we were having, I thought it was impressive.
I'm not stupid enough (OK I really am) to throw the breaker in the winter ... You see I won't go out there in the 28 F temps with wind to change the water, tommorrow is supposed to be mid 30's!
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I saw Tman after your post and just jumped to that, I believe it was infact a case of misktaken identity, however, I would still really like that hat.
What about my apology. I have never slammed Arctic either. And if you can find a post where I did I would be more than happy to give you mine. I have disected there sales approach and questioned there superiority, because I know they simply are not superior to a bunch of other brands.
I know Bosco you don't like me for this and frankly I could care less. I have owned 7 different tubs and worked on 50-100 different brands. There sales approach a few years back was a plain and simple lie. I found holes in the ARC study but will never get an Arctic owner that was convinced of there superiority by said study to ever admit they were decieved. There a fine tub I will say it again. But they are no better than several brands on the market and not as good a value as a few. Did you hear that I said it was a fine brand.
So here's sticking my tongue out at you! :P
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I got to say ... this thread really shouldn't be going this way ... can't we all get along!
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Nice Tongue Tman.
Vinny, obviously we don't want anyone to turn their breaker off, but that is the real test, to prove which method will keep the cold air out and protect the plumbing. It's cold out in Jersey tonight, turn up the heat and get into hot water and enjoy. Dave.
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Dave,
My tub looks like a washing machine! :o There's so much foam it's unbelieveable.
I'm draining that sucker tommorrow and putting fresh non foamed water.
I made it to 2 months, 15 extra days ... I'm getting the hang of this water changing. I'll get up early and get it drained, refilled and heating by hopefully 10 AM. Unless my siphon hose gets a hole in it (I think it already has one). Then 12 hours later or so ... soakin'!
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Vinny,
You have got to get a pump like mine. It is electric, with a 2" discharge hose. It will pump out your Grand Cayman out in 5 minutes. It really saves us a lot of time in the field everyday. Sometimes we have to drain 4 or 5 tubs in a day, for repairs or drain and clean service. If you start refilling before lunch tomorrow, you'll be in hot water tomorrow night. Enjoy. Dave.
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This is going to be my final post on this subject ... maybe.
At 7:00 AM with the air temp at about 27 F and I will assume the overnight temps were a little lower, my tub is at 84 F.
My conclusion is: my tub, an Artesian Cayman, a full foam tub in temps ranging in the 20's to mid 30's, will hold it's temp above freezing for at least a week. It dropped 18 F in 64 hours (about 2 1/2 days).
Other thoughts: NJDave with A LOT more experence than I stated about temps above and below the seating area and I will say that I agree to what he said.
A couple of things I would like to point out about my tub and NJDave or anybody please feel free to shoot holes into my therory ... this is how I learn.
My tub does have tubes that are off the circ pump running to all the pumps (I don't know about my 3rd therapy pump though) that keeps the water above freezing by circulating some water into the pipes. My tub clears it's water from it's pipes every 12 hours so it would exchange the water in the plumbing with fresh warm water unless the water in the pump frooze. I believe my tub gets a little boost from solar heating as it gets about 7 hours of winter sunlight whenever the sun shines.
I now have the piece of mind that IF my heater goes out and it maintains electric, my tub will not freeze solid.
OK, I'm done!
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NJDave, the thing I don't like about what you wrote above is that you come off like a FF customer has zero to worry about in a power outage or equipment failure. A FF tubs equipement area is less protected than that of a TP like Coleman or Arctic. Using your logic, both will keep the tub water warm. The FF plumbing between the tub and equipment is better protected, but the equipment in the FF is at risk faster than the TP in a prolonged power outage or equipment failure.
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Hi Hottubman,
Thanks, for bringing up a great point. Let me first say, we don't have local Arctic Dealers in my market, but I did look at them closely at the Atlantic City Pool and Spa Show, back in January. If anyone was actually going to do TP correctly or as close to it, it would probably be Artic. They really do have a thick layer of sprayed foamed applied to each and every cabinet panel. There are gaps are every seam,which will let some cold air in, so the panels can be removed easily, but in general, it is a very well insulated panel. Then they do heavily insulate the shell also, most TP companies really skimp there, by applying little or no insualtion, to their shell. Artic does apply a thick spray coat on the shell, completely covering, protecting and supporting the plumbing. Lets face it, There is more insulation in a Arctic Spa, than there is trap air space. They are closer to a FF company then they are TP. LA Spas is another fine example. A great brand also. They foam their spa almost entirely, leaving only about a 2" space between the cabinet and foam, allowing for ease of cabinet removal, but really they are a FF company. Getting back to your point about equipment area freezing, both TP and FF Spas are equally at risk to freeze up in the equipment area, should their be a power failure or GFCI Breaker trip. Most TP companies use only a foil or styro foam panel attached to their eqipment door, to insulate, which will do little or nothing, more than a uninsulated resin panel on a FF Spa. But, freeze ups in the equipmewnt areas are almost always minor fixes, usually the heater union or pump union will split from ice pressure, leaving the eqipment free of damage, not always, but in most cases. FF Spas and better protected TP Spas with lots of insulation protecting the plumbing, will save the customers $100's -1000's of dollars in repairs plumbing, pipe and manifold and jet repairs. As a tech I don't put companies like Arctic or Coleman, in with companies like Thermo Spas or Hydro Spas, that do TP in its worst way,who put a 1/8" spray coat on their shell, leaving their plumbing completely exposed, only counting on heat from the motors and foil or insulation on the panels. Most of the companies doing TP, are doing it in a economical way to save money in manufacturing and are doing no justice for the consumer, in colder climates. They do it wrong. While as pointed out by hottubman, there are companies making doing a better job in TP, Arctic and Coleman . Sorry, if I got a little carried away on my original post, but I have fixed 100's of frozen spas and the majority were poorly insulated abd never had a chance. So, you see how this topic really gets under my skin. Hey winter is almost over. 27 degrees today, but they say next week it will be 64 . Can't wait. Dave.
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Vinny,
Yes , you are correct. Your Artesian Grand Cayman, has tubing connecting from the circ pump, that pumps warm water through your three main pumps, always keeping your pumps protected and warm. You also have that blowout for 2 minutes at the start of each cycle, every 12 hours. You also have freeze protection built in to the electronics, that if the water temp drops below 50 degrees, all pumps will circulate. Moving water will not freeze. The numbers for temperature loss in your spa posted were excellent, with your water temperatures staying in the 80's after 48 hours, with the heater turned off. Great Spa and Great Post. Hopefully, you are now refilling your tub and have gotten rid of the soap suds. Enjoy it tonight. Dave.
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Tman, I dont hate you, but I am so tired of hearing you chime in to always inform us that arctic has crappy sales people and the study is a lie. Your opinion is valid, and I appreciate it, but ask anyone here, every time arctic is mentioned, you always let us know that arctic has shady sales tactics and lie about their heating costs.
Not fighting, just defending happy owners of this line. I am not suggesting you hate the product nor would I put words in your mouth.
I am finished arguing about this topic, so I will not mention any of this again, I promise. So here is to new beginings due to frustration of the same old debate.
I will stick to my convictions, just as much as you or anyone else here. I stand behind the product that I purchased, I am a satisfied owner and believe my tub to be a COMPETITIVE PRODUCT, no more superior than any other tub just COMPETITIVE.
So Tman, please dont feel hate put your tounge back in your mouth, and lets put this to sleep.
Moms the word :-X :-X :-X :-X
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Okay being in northern Minnesota we come across this broblem with ff. or not the colman dealer 1 hour away says his is the best. But when you a colman cooler is it not full foam. the walls of that cooler are not 1/2 foamed. And also would you want moer insulation in your house or would you want less . I can tell you that every contractor will tell you to add more not less. Call your local power company and ask them is more better than less.
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Good enough Bosco. But you also should point out the lies if someone comes on here and asks about the 90% reduction in chemical usage because of the Arctic ozone. This and a number of other plain and simple untruths that people have been told at the local Arctic store. We can not ignore these, we need to point them out so a potiential buyer has all the information to make an educated or semi educated purchase at the very least. Thats what these boards are for.
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agreed, I will do this for every brand misconception, not just one in particular.
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I don't know if I really want to jump in on this but....here goes.
There was a time (and I heard it personally) when Arctic dealers were spewing out some stretched truths and using some shady salesmanship, rather than letting the product stand on its own merits. The biggest problem was it seemed to be comming from the manufacturer. It has all been pretty well covered on the forums. They obviously make a fine product, have a nice following and have catapulted themselves into the upper group of spa manufacturers. It seems they have moved beyond this and are headed in a new direction.
Arctic has come a long way since I purchased in 2002. I wouldn't even consider them because the dealer that sold them (also a pool dealer) had a terrible reputation. That dealer no longer sells Arctic and hasn't for a couple of years, though I heard the sales pitch at a home show from the new dealer in the area.
I attribute this all to growing pains. I would imagine it is difficult to push your way into this business with all the big manufacturers there. I give them credit. I am so pro smaller business. The spa seems to be doing well selling itself. I think Arctic probably knows that now.
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Well, if Tony is going to jump in then so am I. I respect Tony's opinion. I'm new to all this. I just bought a tub, doesn't matter which but I did a lot of research before I bought. My wife thinks I'm ate up. But in reality I don't like making mistakes. Especially multi thousand dollar ones. After all my research online, I went to a local homeshow. I want to tell you I never saw so much cutthroat sells unprofessionalism in my life. I came away not informed like I should have, but confused. Its really sad. There was only one dealer at the show that held himself above attacking others. I could see a lot of hard feelings in this industry. In the retail sells world, there are many different sells tactics. I don't like the beating down of the comptetition. Let me decide. Just my .02 .
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Well, if Tony is going to jump in then so am I. I respect Tony's opinion. I'm new to all this. I just bought a tub, doesn't matter which but I did a lot of research before I bought. My wife thinks I'm ate up. But in reality I don't like making mistakes. Especially multi thousand dollar ones. After all my research online, I went to a local homeshow. I want to tell you I never saw so much cutthroat sells unprofessionalism in my life. I came away not informed like I should have, but confused. Its really sad. There was only one dealer at the show that held himself above attacking others. I could see a lot of hard feelings in this industry. In the retail sells world, there are many different sells tactics. I don't like the beating down of the comtetition. Let me decide. Just my .02 .
Unfortunately that is probably what we portray more often than not in this industry. There are several reasons for it though;
1. No real regulations on then industry for anything that matters.
2. Anyone and everyone can and does sell spas so the people that have made a conscience decision to make it a career are few and far between...Many started selling spas because they had the gift of manipulation and didn't really qualify for anything else.
3. Most people selling spas don't even own one.
4. The turnover for salespeople is around 60% so it's hard to find someone with any true longevity. There are more people emotionally attached to their paycheck than the quality of a brand....
Technology and innovation typically takes time, money and work. In our fast paced, money driven society that doesn't always fit the quest for the almighty buck and the spa industry is a breeding ground for people that don't have the desire to take the long road and pay the dues but would rather take the money and run.
Many companies spend a whole lot more resource on aggressive marketing and sales tactics than research and innovation.
Some like Master, ThermoSpa, Cal and Arctic dominate more in aggressive marketing than others while some like HotSpring, D1 and Marquis still dedicate as much or more towards product quality, industry knowledge and innovation as they do the sales and marketing. This creates a battleground as old as time...brute force (and in some cases, treachery) vs. the fine tuned weapon.
Look at how long as a nation we have been fighting wars in third world countries using the most technologically advanced weapons and highest ethics only to lose battle after battle to down and dirty guerrilla fighters hiding in caves with age old weapons.
We always gain ground yet with more casualties then we should have. If we weren’t concerned about innocent casualties like the other guys are we would dominate every battle.
It works the same for the spa industry….There are those that just don’t care what they have to say or do to sell a product they just sell it while others try for a more realistic and upfront approach only to lose the deal to a lie….
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Well put Stu. A Sad state of affairs. G
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Why would we need to monitor all that. Why not pick two tubs in the same area with roughly the same useage and gallons and put them on a dedicated meter. We could compile the data over several months.
I'm sure if I offered an in-store chemical credit, I could find a Jacuzzi and a Coleman customer of mine that would participate in our study. It would be worth every penny to put end end to this debate....
Yup. That would be the most simple staright forward way of ansering your question.
However, I am intrigued by the whole thing and want to understand what's going on and why. :)
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...Artic does apply a thick spray coat on the shell, completely covering, protecting and supporting the plumbing.
Perhaps Dave has Arctic confused with someone else. We do NOT apply foam to the shell at all.
Our HeatLock Perimeter Insulation system has three inches of polyurethane foam around the inside of the cabinet and floor and an uninsulated shell, which permits heat transfer to and from the spa water through the shell. The heavy reflex torsion hose does not need protection, and the plumbing is spot-foamed where necessary for support.
Tom
Arctic Spas
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The heavy reflex torsion hose does not need protection, and the plumbing is spot-foamed where necessary for support.
Tom
Arctic Spas
I'm curious. How is that hose any different from the flex hose used by Sundance, Hot Springs, Marquis, etc. or is "Heavy reflex torsion hose" simply a marketing term for the same hose the others use?
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I was out of town this past week and shopped a local Arctic dealer for my dealer.
It was quoted that I would save 90% of my chemical costs with peak ozone. I ask any Arctic dealer here to provide data on this as the dealer I was speaking to had none...
They are using some form of heavy gauge flex that I haven't seen before. I'm still amazed that these connections are only glued and not clamped as well.
Steve
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Hi Graybeard,
Ooops, sorry my boo boo. I thought Arctic foamed their shells, til you brought it to my attention differently. After reading your post, I went back looking for a photo I took 2 months ago in the Arctic Booth, at the Atlantic City Pool and Spa Show and there you have it. Here is photo, so others can see what we are speaking about. Thanks again, for posting the correct info. Dave.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1395/10014170bf.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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Holy Cow,
Looks like I supersized it. Hopefully, this works better.Dave.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1395/10014170bf.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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Oh well. It's a work in progress. You are certainly get a nice closup, of the guy behind the tub. Anybody we know?