Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: drprwnap on February 28, 2006, 02:38:07 pm
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Ok, I'll start a NEW thread (really a continuation of the "Tablet replacment not working" thread).
Seems the good folks at King Technologies(KT) are unhappy some people are refilling their cartridges. Ya know what? I don't give a s**t. >:(
If I can go and buy a pound of bromine tablets, refill a cartridge two (or more times) and have it last over a month for LESS than ONE KT cartridge that lasts 2 WEEKS, what the hell do they (KT) expect? Owning a tub is an expensive. I knew that going in and I'm not complaining. That doesn't mean if I find a way to save $$$ I'm going to pass it up! I know bromine usage is related to how many people use the spa and how often. If KT could make a cartridge that would last a month (or more) for a tub that gets used by two people once per day, I wouldn't be refilling.
So if anyone connected with KT is reading this, get your act together and figure out a way to make it more affordable. $13.95 for something that lasts 2 weeks vs. $12.95 for the same thing that lasts 1.5 MONTHS is a no brainner in my book. If their answer is to make cartridges that can't be re-filled, I'll switch to N2 and di-chlor!
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don't hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel!
Actually, I agree....convenience is nice, but you shouldn't have to pay through the nose for it. The COULD offer a cartridge that's a bit more heavy duty and REFILLABLE for, say....$25.....and I believe people would BUY it, simply to avoid all the BS they find when trying to make a disposable product last longer....but then, that's just me....I'm willing to pay a bit more for quality and convenience, but that doesn't mean that I should have to have a tub of Vaseline sitting around, awaiting the next bend over episode.....
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drprwnap and Tatooed_Lady,
You all know where I stand on this issue.
I'm in full agreement with both of you.
Phil
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This is interesting. I am not familliar with the spa frog system (only what I've read on the net). But in my old Bromine tub I just dispensed bromine tabs in a floating rubber ducky doo hickey.
For the inlines systems there no "generic reusable catridge"that you can fill yourself? Or am I missing something? What's the valule that "Spa Frog" offers over my old floating rubber ducking dispensor?
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Drew, I am guessing the value is to be partnered with Marquis. If Marquis is willing to incorporate them into their tubs and they simplify the sanitizing thing, then they have a guaranteed market. They probably didn't anticipate the people who want the convienence but don't want to be ripped off on the way. I agree that since the canister is made of a material that can be refilled, then we should refill. If nothing else, but in the interest of recycling. And if the system is nothing but an expensive container (based on the costs given by the "refillers" on here), then paying for it more than once or twice stinks. The real technology is in the delivery system in the tub. I have not been able to open my canisters as they are glued together, I am guessing. I destroyed one trying to open it. Maybe King has done that to prevent refilling. I have just found that my bromine levels fluctuate a lot and maybe it has to do with what is in that canister, granulated bromine or like Phil found, chips. ???
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Drew, I don't think I really addressed your question correctly, but anyway, I guess that is why the cost is high. They are a built in thing that has no generic as of yet....and maybe never will. Think like metal coffee filters...they finally offer a spa frog bromine canister made of the same acrylic as your tub and it will last as long as your tub....mmmmmm a business prospect! ;D
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I said in a previous post on this subject that sooner or later the mfg of the bromine cartridge would find a way to make reusing the cartridge impossible. It's a matter of time.
I agree with drprwnap...if I can find a way to save $$ then I'm sure going to do it. If KT can't make it more affordable then I'll go to another sanitizing method. It's all about supply/demand. When the demand for the products lessens they'll come up with something better.
I'm saving all my used cartridges but I can just as well use drewstar's rubber ducky dispensor.
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You can always use the original style frog cartridge in your filter compartment along with a good ol bromine floater and keep the bromine level at .5 - 1 ppm. From what I see, it works much better than the in line systems and the frog floater systems.
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My pool came with an inline frog system that seems to be similar to the inline spa frog system. I had the same issues everyone is complaining about. I ultimately had to plumb it off line to regulate the amount of water through the system to keep the chlorine levels down (trichlor for pool). I also thought about cutting open a used frog chlorine cartridge and fill it with my own trichlor tabs, but canned the idea and just use it as a chlorinator....no frog minerals and no frog chlorine.
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My question is simple.
If KT can complain to the owner/moderators of this forum, why can't they register here and stand behind their product?
HUH?
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My question is simple.
If KT can complain to the owner/moderators of this forum, why can't they register here and stand behind their product?
HUH?
GREAT question, Snyper! It'll be interesting if we get a response.
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C'mon out and play KT, we are all ears! ;D
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A company making product designed to make the consumer's life easier and ensuring the company a profitable revenue stream is fine. It's a great business model. However, i belive in another thread the company posted a vauge warning ment to scare the consumer from modifying the canister.
come on. It's an in-line chlorinator. Pools have had them for years and doesn't require a proprietary canister. I am surprised that other bromine manufacturers/distriburters haven't come out with thier own compatatble, refillable cartriidge. I think it's only a matter of time when the free market and competition resolves this.
Or just upgrade to dichlor. ;D No more chemical baths!
/ducks and runs.
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Drewstar...what do you mean "upgrade" to dichlor? I have a bromine tub now, so what would I have to do to go to dichlor? Any sanitizer is going to be a "chemical bath" isn't it?
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Drewstar...what do you mean "upgrade" to dichlor? I have a bromine tub now, so what would I have to do to go to dichlor? Any sanitizer is going to be a "chemical bath" isn't it?
That's right Cappy. Upgrade.
Upgrade baby, Upgrade to the Cadilac of sanitizers. ;D oh yea. Here's the beauty (Soon to be moved to a deadhorse file near you). No equipment change is needed.
Dichlor, you add the right amount after you soak (based on bathers and use) and it's pretty much done. Next time you get into the tub The tub has been sanitized and there is no residual chlorine. Just nice clean water. (as opposed to sitting in a tub that has a bromine floater in it or running 24 7)/
No cartridges. No Frogs. No messing around trying to guess the right size opening or flow rate for your dispensor. With bromine dispensors the bromine keeps getting added to your water regardless if it's used or even needed. I personally don't see the benifit of Bromine (plus it made my skin almost fall off) ;D YMMV
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Any sanitizer is going to be a "chemical bath" isn't it?
Nah, people who've tried both almost always prefer chlorine over bromine because they know that they sanitize with chlroine but when they go to use it the next time the sanitizer level has dropped so they're not sitting in a chemical soup like they would in a bromine spa.
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...I am surprised that other bromine manufacturers/distriburters haven't come out with thier own compatatble, refillable cartriidge. I think it's only a matter of time when the free market and competition resolves this.
Hey Doc!
Do you know of anyone making refillable cartridges that can be used in a spa frog system? Get in on your site and I'll buy some!
Anybody know of anyone in the plastics industry who's looking for new products? They can charge 5 times what's it's actually worth and it will pay for itself after a year! ::)
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Do any of you work for a BIG corporation?
It's all about MONEY and how much of it these companies can suck out of people. That's why you got Frogs, Baqua, disposable filters, ...
If people on the Frog System wrote letters to the spa company and KT and told them their never using their product and stop using it, things will change quickly. Big companies don't want to waste money on something their not making money on.
drprwnap, KT will probably make it impossible to open those Frogs in the future or make them a different size so standard bromine tablets won't work because it's affecting their bottom line.
Actually, like the shrinking size of food in the supermarket, it'll probably be getting smaller and smaller for "the good of your spa"! You'll be able to use one container a week for ease of use; you don't have to think about it - every _____ (fill in the blank) just pop a new one in!
It sounds like companies are looking for ways to lock the customers in to guarantee money coming in.
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Corporate has always sucked, in my experience. They're so busy in meetings, seeing the "big picture", etc...that they can easily overlook some of the smaller things that make a BIG difference...
Remember Trak Auto? I worked for them...they wouldn't allow us to put the small, high ticket items behind the counter and leave an empty display package out on the floor, even though we had a store in a high crime area. They (corporate) figured it was better to have the stuff stolen than to mess with what the floor plan was supposed to be.....
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Most people I talk to who have used both almost always prefer Bromine over Chlorine. Chlorine off gasses at 98 degrees. The avg. hot tub is 102 deg. so when you use chlorine, you definitely smell it. Bromine off gasses higher, that's not to say you won't ever smell it, but if used in ideal amounts you will have very limited chemical odor. When people are allergic to chlorine, bromine is usually an alternative that will do better on their skin.
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The avg. hot tub is 102 deg. so when you use chlorine, you definitely smell it.
Disagree. I usually have about .5 - 1 ppm chlorine when I use my tub and I definitely can NOT smell it. The water actually smells almost sweet with a little bit of an ozone smell. Guests often comment on the pleasant smell. When I dose the tub after use, I can smell the dichlor off-gas, but this is gone the next time I use it. Strong chlorine odour is often caused by chloramines.
Steve
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ok here is what all you "consumers" need to realize....it is the Retailer's that set the price...not King Technologies.... I am a pool and spa retailer and we guaruntee the lowest price.....don't go after King...go after your local retailer
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I am a pool and spa retailer and we guaruntee the lowest price
And what would that price be? I ask, because my dealer sells the Spa Frog Bromine for $7.99 each.
Edited to correct spelling
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Snyper: Your dealer has a fabulous price on those cartridges. At the factory MQ stores in Oregon those cartridges are $11.50 each.
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Most people I talk to who have used both almost always prefer Bromine over Chlorine. Chlorine off gasses at 98 degrees. The avg. hot tub is 102 deg. so when you use chlorine, you definitely smell it. Bromine off gasses higher, that's not to say you won't ever smell it, but if used in ideal amounts you will have very limited chemical odor. When people are allergic to chlorine, bromine is usually an alternative that will do better on their skin.
I also disagree, especially regarding the off gassing. Show me something reputable that validates your claim that chlorine off gasses at 98 degrees. The only thing I can find is extremely high chlorine levels under certain circumstances may result in chlorine gas at the water surface. Now I know chlorine produces chloromines and when shocking they off gas, but that also happens in pools where the temp in much lower and is the result of a chemical reaction you are initiating. From what I know, there should be no smell of chlorine unless you have chloromines or very high levels of chlorine at which time you are oxidizing because you have reached breakpoint oxidation level. One of the disadvantages of bromine is the bromine odor that you cannot get it off you. From what I see, many go from bromine to chlorine, few from chlorine to bromine in today's modern world.
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So all you do is add dichlor after bathing...and how do you determine the amount? We haven't used our tub in over a week and our usage isn't heavy, so if you're not using everyday how would you create a routine?
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So all you do is add dichlor after bathing...and how do you determine the amount? We haven't used our tub in over a week and our usage isn't heavy, so if you're not using everyday how would you create a routine?
I also use a Nature2 cartridge and ozone. At new water fill, I balance and then add 1 tblspn dichlor. This would bring my 485 gallon spa to 3-5 ppm free chlorine. That level will drop to near zero in a couple of days but is low enough to use the spa at anytime.
After use, add enough dichlor to bring your free chlorine level to 2+ ppm. Every tub is different and number of bathers will affect this, but for most people with average use, one to two tsp is enough. After you test the first few times, you will get a good idea of your tubs chlorine demand and know how much to add. Run all your jets for about five minutes and close the cover. The next time you soak, the free chlorine level will have dropped, proboably close to zero, so you are soaking in chem free water. Your N2 cartridge and ozone maintain while chlorine levels are low. When you get back in you introduce new bacteria, etc. You finish and add chlorine and sanitize all over again. In between time, such as the week you haven't used it, there is no large amount of bacteria, etc being brought into the water, so the N2 and ozone can keep up...for the most part. My water will last a week neglected, but I would suggest adding a dichlor dose mid week. Shock weekly or as needed with either MPS or dichlor. I use a combination of both. Because I tend to use a minimal amount of dichlor after use, I like to bring my free chlorine level to 3-5 ppm once per week. That is low enough to use the spa, but high enough to give it a good cleanse. I shock with MPS when I have any combined chlorine. That is generally every other week. I shock with MPS over dichlor because the shock level of chlorine means a day or two without using the spa.
Of course balance the water weekly and your all done. There are two good routines on Doc's forum in the FAQ section...Vermonters dichlor dosing and Northman's routine. They go into good detail and is worth reading.
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Snyper: Your dealer has a fabulous price on those cartridges. At the factory MQ stores in Oregon those cartridges are $11.50 each.
$7.99 vs. $11.50. Markee, you're missing the point. It's still way cheaper to simply refill them at a cost of 8 bromine tablets each refill. That's it.
It goes back to Corporate Greed. King Technology has changed the cartridge so they cannot be taken apart to be made reuseable. Why? It cuts into their profits. Period.
Nor do they care about the environment. I can hear them now, "So what if they have to throw some more plastic away every time they replace the cartridge?"
In fact, I can't even throw it in my area's curbside recycling - they don't want it either. Every one of those cartridges will get buried in a landfill. >:(
I'm hoping someone here will find an alternative canister that will work. Maybe kludge something together using a Pringle's can! ::) Just kidding. I've been thinking about it but haven't yet come up with anything. We have a lot of smart, resourceful people on this site. Hopefully, one of us will think of an alternative, reuseable canister.
Then again, there are always floaters! (http://www.ariesspas.com/assets/store/duck_floater.thmb.gif) ;D :D ;D
Phil
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So all you do is add dichlor after bathing...and how do you determine the amount? We haven't used our tub in over a week and our usage isn't heavy, so if you're not using everyday how would you create a routine?
It's based on tub size (amount of water,) how many people used the tub and for how long.
The goal is to get the CL up to 2-3 ppm after sanitizing.
I have a 350 gal tub with a 24 hr ozinator. On average, I use 1/2 teaspoon of dichlor per person who used the tub, run the pumps for 10 minutes and close it up for the night. No problems.
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Very good info Tony. This is simply whatever works best for you. I had a pool ten years ago that had an inline chlorinator. Had trouble with the levels. I would just put those tablets in and turn it down so as to maintain chlorine. And then shocked once a week. I went with yours and Drewstar's recomendation of Dichlor. Its just much more forgiving. I think that if you get use to bromine, its ok. My son likes it in his tub. He came over last night to break in the new tub. He said he would watch how easy I have it. I think the Sundance models have a bromine compartment on the gate of the filter box for bromine tablets. At least mine does.
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What is Nature2? Is that like the mineral cartridge I use by Spa Frog?
This was a very informative post. I'll have to print it out and keep.
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Nature2 is very similar to the Frog. You can use the frog with bromine or dichlor, Nature2 only dichlor. I used the frog until Nature2 built a cartridge for Sundance to distribute called SunPurity that fits in the brominator in the wier door. I have found no difference in the products using dichlor.
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Tony, I can't buy Nature2 in Canada ( >:() so I bought some from ebay @ $47 US for 3. I think that is a good price but I am wondering two things: (1) price you pay per Sunpurity cartridge and (2) can I import it from a US dealer if it is reasonably priced?
Steve
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$7.99 vs. $11.50. Markee, you're missing the point. It's still way cheaper to simply refill them at a cost of 8 bromine tablets each refill. That's it.
It goes back to Corporate Greed. King Technology has changed the cartridge so they cannot be taken apart to be made reuseable. Why? It cuts into their profits. Period.
Nor do they care about the environment. I can hear them now, "So what if they have to throw some more plastic away every time they replace the cartridge?"
In fact, I can't even throw it in my area's curbside recycling - they don't want it either. Every one of those cartridges will get buried in a landfill. >:(
I'm hoping someone here will find an alternative canister that will work. Maybe kludge something together using a Pringle's can! ::) Just kidding. I've been thinking about it but haven't yet come up with anything. We have a lot of smart, resourceful people on this site. Hopefully, one of us will think of an alternative, reuseable canister.
Then again, there are always floaters! (http://www.ariesspas.com/assets/store/duck_floater.thmb.gif) ;D :D ;D
Phil
Phil - I hear where you are coming from, but as i stated earlier, the tablets did not disolve correctly in the Spa Frog cartridge - Not for me anyway.
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Tony...I'm still confused. What is Nature2? I have a bromine cartridge and a mineral cartridge. So if I went to a dichlor tub I would toss the bromine cartridge and add the Nature2 along WITH my mineral cartridge?
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Tony, I can't buy Nature2 in Canada ( >:() so I bought some from ebay @ $47 US for 3. I think that is a good price but I am wondering two things: (1) price you pay per Sunpurity cartridge and (2) can I import it from a US dealer if it is reasonably priced?
Steve
good price, IMHO.....my dealer sells them for about $25 EACH....
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Tony...I'm still confused. What is Nature2? I have a bromine cartridge and a mineral cartridge. So if I went to a dichlor tub I would toss the bromine cartridge and add the Nature2 along WITH my mineral cartridge?
If I am correct, you have an inline frog system. I am not totally familiar with how to not use bromine with it, but to answer your question...toss the bromine cartridge and keep using your mineral cartridge which would be pretty much the same as the Nature2 (so you would not need to add a Nature2 cartridge. Nature2 does the same thing that the Frog does when using dichlor).
I hope I made sense.
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Tony, I can't buy Nature2 in Canada ( >:() so I bought some from ebay @ $47 US for 3. I think that is a good price but I am wondering two things: (1) price you pay per Sunpurity cartridge and (2) can I import it from a US dealer if it is reasonably priced?
Steve
$47 US for 3 is a very good price. Shepnell in Vermont is the most reasonable I know of for Sundance SunPurity and they charge $22 each. I can't see the sense in paying more just to place it in the brominator. As a matter of fact, I think I am going to go back to a regular N2 cartridge or frog. It does the same thing. If you want to check Shepnells go to www.shepnell.com.
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Thanks Tatooed Lady and Tony. I'm thinking I should stock up if the price is that good :).
Steve
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Hey Steve, I've got a real good deal for you on a used spa frog ;D
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Hey Steve, I've got a real good deal for you on a used spa frog ;D
Nice you're looking out for me Bonibelle ;) but I'm gonna have to pass you up on this one...
Steve
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Copy cat asked What is Nature2? Is that like the mineral cartridge I use by Spa Frog?
Nature 2 is copper and silver
Spa Frog is silver only and Calcium carbonate.
Silver is decent at controlling bacteria
Copper controls algea
Spa frog says CC controls PH
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Is the Nature2 an in-line product? The mineral cartridges I'm buying now are $29.95 ea. I'll check this subject again when mine are gone.
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Nature 2 goes in the hole in your filter. The nature 2 is going to be priced the same as your mineral cartridge so there would be no point in switching. The frog mineral cartridge is compatible with bromine or chlorine
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cappykat,
My advice is to stick with bromine and frog if it works for you. I have tried Nature 2 (N2) without any success. I had it in my tub for about a month and honestly it didn't do anything for my water.
I do use dichlor and was using about 3 PPM free chlorine which is 6x more than N2 recommends, I also shocked with enhanced shock (MPS and chlorine) and my water wasn't any better or worse than without N2.
IMO, it's not worth the money. But with that said there are many people who use it and see a difference.
Vinny
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I was skeptical about the n2 cartridge also but tried it and did notice a difference. I use dichlor and ozone and now n2 with both and feel there is a difference. I feel like the difference is without the n2 my water is clear and with the n2 my water is crystal clear and sparkles. Maybe its my imagination but I think it helps
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I've still got 7 bromine and 1 mineral cartridges left, so until I use those I'm not going to change to dichlor. The thing that sparked my interest was the "chemical bath" comment. So I'll think about changing once my supplies are gone.
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Cappy, that comment worried me too...I don't know what is worse bathing with the Pseudomonas or stewing in chemicals. I just don't feel that you have a lot of control with the spa frog set up because, like we were saying, it injects bromine whenever the #1 pump runs ???
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Yes, but even for those that use a floater...isn't bromine or whatever constantly being dispensed?? Geez...I just don't have it in me to change right now but dichlor may be the way to go--no floater just a teaspoon.
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Cappy, if you take out the cartridge holder from the frog well (what ever the heckit is called) and watch OH BUT DON'T TURN ON THE PUMP ON HIGH!, you will see the water enters from the top of the well and exits at the bottom. when the cartridge is in the well, it will spin and bromine will be flushed out into the tub. Is that any different than a floater? I think it is because it is almost like just dumping bromine in the tub every time the pump goes on. I doubt that you get that much bromine with a floater. OK, Help somebody...does that make sense to anyone else? I am sure the settings could and probably should be tweeked for the amount of use the tub gets, it is just that no one at King has figured it out yet. ..I think,,,, ::)
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It seems like you get a lot more control with a floater. I don't know anything about the in line system, but you open or close the floater to adjust your bromine level.
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I know what you're saying...I've taken out the frog system and then had the pump come on and there's water everywhere. :o
I think at issue is how fast the bromine in the cartridge dissolves. I was surprised when I pried off the top to see there was still bromine in the thing when I've had that cartridge in for almost 5 weeks. I opened the other used one I had and there was bromine in it also. I combined the two and that's what I'm running off of now.
Tony makes a good point about the floater. Open or close it...pretty simple.
I'm staying with the "program" for now 'cause my water seems to be in good shape. I checked yesterday and my levels were all within normal range. I just notice the spike in bromine after I shock then in 1-2 days it levels off.
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Granular chlorine is going to be way more potent than the stuff that comes out of the frog bromine cartridge. If you have your cartridge set right, it is releasing just enough to sanitize the water and your water tests should show .5-1 PPM. Most cities' public water don't have chlorine levels this low. So if you want to call it a chemical bath, you must not have your settings right. Here is the manual if you want to read up on it:
http://www.kingtechnology.com/pdf/Manual-SpaFrogInline.pdf
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Thank you MarKee, the manual helps a lot. I have not been able to get that ideal bromine level and I think I may switch to the Taylor test to be sure my problem isn't from the test strips. :-/
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Great...this helps me a lot also!!
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Thanks to Markee for the King Technologies link - although the Frog system is built into my Marquis spa - the information on it in the owner's manual is limited. I had no idea where the mineral cartridge was supposed to be set - now I do!
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I have an above ground pool that came with a KT cartridge chlorinator ( Called Aqua-Smarte ). The disposable cartridges that are filled with nothing more than chlorine tablets costs 4 times as much as an equal amoutn of chlorine.
Swimming pool owners have been cutting open their containers and refilling them with new tablets/pucks for years.
If that did not work, I would just eliminate their in-line cartridge and replace it with a "Rainbow" in-line chlorinator that is actually designed to be refilled.
Tim