Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: luvmytub on February 19, 2006, 11:49:09 am
-
Ok, I don't know if I can do this or not, but I'm going to try to add pictures of my tub. And I wanted to mention safety issues of getting out of the tub, as I hurt my foot getting out, simply due to carelessness on my part. Wet foot plus slick cement could spell disaster! Friday night I was stepping down and going to put my feet into my Land's End swim slides. I'm still not sure what I did exactly, but my right foot slid right out from under me on the cement, and I landed hard on the ball of my left foot, right on top of my flip flop. That plastic or whatever they make them out of is pretty stiff anyway, but the temp was below freezing here and it was really hard. At first I thought I might have cracked some bones in my foot, but it seems I just bruised it really bad. I rounded up some little rugs from the garage and put them there for the time being, but my husband is going to get some indoor/outdoor carpeting to under the steps, running up to our patio door. I was very lucky, I didn't hit any part of me on the steps or hurt myself worse.
Now if these pics show up, the first two are views of the tub from inside my house looking out the door and windows to the patio. The third is a view of the huge Russian Olive tree that is going to be beautiful to look at from the tub in the Spring and Summer, but is going to dump tons of little yellow flowers in the Spring, and tons of little green leaves in the Fall, that will be landing on us in the tub, if we don't put up at least a screen enclosure. The last pic is just a view of the tub from the opposite direction. That is Libby looking out of the door.
Edited to add:
Well, crud...the pics were here then when I came back to see if I could figure out how to make them bigger, all little red x's....I give up on it for now...sorry!
-
Well, it sort of worked ??? They are so small ???
But for now it will have to do, because I just enough time to run out and soak for a bit before the Daytona 500 starts!
-
Try this! I opened a Webshots album. Here's the link if you want to see the pics. The description above fits the order of the pics. Sorry I'm so "picture posting challenged". As a hobby and a small side business, I make quilts and belong to an online longarm quilting forum. I don't have any problem uploading pics to the quilting forum. Oh well...
http://community.webshots.com/myphotos?action=viewAllPhotos&albumID=547756131&security=cwKwNH
-
Speaking of safety, who did your electrical? I'm not an electrician but as I understand code, the disconnect box needs to be more than five feet away from the tub. Yours looks to be about two feet away, if that, and is easily accessible from inside the tub. That's a recipie for disaster. I'd give serious thought to reviewing and redoing the work. 230 volts 2' away from someone sitting 400 gallons isn't something you want to mess with.
-
A local electrician....The hot tub delivery people didn't say anything about it when they delivered the tub...I don't know...now ya got me worried :( ???.
-
Sorry luvmytub, but I agree with Jim, you should have that disconnect box checked out.
I would assume your GFI is in there, so if there is a problem the GFI breaker will trip, but the live side of the circuit is still right next to the tub.
My GFI is 15' from the tub. Closer to the breaker box then the tub. So if there is a problem and the GFI trips, there are no hot wires within 15' of the tub or any wet people getting out of the tub.
Local code here, like Jim says, is the GFI must be a minimum of 5' from the tub.
Steve
-
local code varries from states and countries, however, I do believe that most code varries from 5 to 10 feet. I too agree with this disconnect being to close. The idea is that if it trips, you dont get lazy and just reach over while in the tub and reset it. This way it forces you out of the tub to reset. If you got this inspected, I believe that this would fail inspection.
I have taken the liberty of adding your photo for all to view.
(http://image51.webshots.com/151/2/59/9/2561259090086170391ZTkrsL_ph.jpg)
-
So are we only in danger of being electrocuted if we reach out and touch the box while in the spa?
I wonder if I can get the electrician to come back out and move it on further down the wall the required 5 feet, without paying him again...? I just trusted that being "the electrician" (and a reputable, expensive one at that), that they were doing it correctly. He also talked to my dealer before installing. Right now I'm somewhat aggravated at both of them >:(. I didn't get the owner's manual til after they were done installing the tub, and they handed me my little packet of paperwork. Now that I pulled it out and read that section, it does say 5 or more feet.
I guess it's good I decided to share some pics, but I was a lot happier before. I didn't even know I had a potential problem. Sigh.......
And to top it off, my driver had crappy finish in the Daytona 500 :(.
Randi
-
I'd say that a certified electrician in your area should
a) know the codes regarding hot tubs before starting work, or
b) FIND OUT what the codes are before starting the project.
My thoughts are simple.....he did the work, he's a professional. You're just the homeowner who's not responsible for knowing what end of the wire will zap you, so HE should eat the cost of coming back out to re-work the wiring. I wouldn't think he'll be terribly out of sorts if you point out that in the manual it clearly states the minimum distance needed...
I like the pics, I'd LOVE to have the tub that close to the door, but our deck isn't set up for that.... *sigh*
-
Well, if he is a "reputable, trusted, expensive" electrician, then the inspector WILL make him move the box. Oh uh wait, is he pulling a permit? Call them back and make them move it and then call the inspector in if they don't. If we don't see you here soon, we will know why.
Steve
-
Back to the orginal question...
Rugs of any kind might not be a good idea since they will get wet, freeze and may be just as slippy as concrete.
Maybe you can get those floor tiles from Sam's or Costco that are about 1/2 thick, soft and have 3/4 to 1 inch holes in them.
They are relatively cheap and should let the water drain through. They could also be picked up for cleaning underneath.
When/if they wear out. buy news ones. If you get tired of them try something else.
-
Yea, those are a thought, Snowbird! I might have to try some of those. If I live long enough :o ;)!
-
I think someone (Bonibelle maybe?) tried those squares and they froze and became very slippery and dangerous.
I know my cousin fell going up or down her mom's wood front porch steps once and so her mom took a door mat and cut it into strips lining the stairs (nailed/screwed down of course). It was the type of door mat that wasn't solid and about an inch thich. It allowed the water to drain. Not sure if that would work for you or not.
-
So are we only in danger of being electrocuted if we reach out and touch the box while in the spa?
Randi
Your not neccesarily in danger of getting electrocuted when you reach out for the box while your in the spa.
Your simply in code violation which does not mean your in danger. Codes are designed to protect people, and this one was designed to prevent elecrocution.
-
Wrong Tman!
You are in danger of getting electrocuted.
Get that box moved away from the tub.
There are many things that could go wrong here, short and long term. A faulty GFI due to exposure to the elements for one thing. Just ask the local electrical inspector.
Steve
-
Remember that the main protection is the GFCI. Once past that you are back to normal breaker protection. If you can touch the GFCI box from in the tub, you are defeating its purpose.
The shutoff/breaker box should be far enough away (5 or 6 ft depending on local code) that you could not reach it from in the tub, but close enough (less than 10 feet depending on local code) that a person outside the tub can easily find it and and shut it off quiclky.
Due to a construction requirement, my GFCI is downstairs but the shut off is in the room with the tub about 8 feet away.
You should follow the advice here and ask someone who is experienced in electrical code. We had a hard time getting facts instead of opinions and guesses, so I went to the local VoTech and asked an instrcutor. They are usually up on the latest code since they teach it. You should also be able to find some well-supervised labor there too.
One recent change we didn't know was that the local code requires that the ground wire be insulated from the shutoff to the hot tub connection. Normally ground wire is bare.
-
Every single 220V spa in our showroom is set up with the sub-panel right next to the spa. The city inspector told us to put them there, we did, and he signed off on them. And that's that.
Terminator
-
Every single 220V spa in our showroom is set up with the sub-panel right next to the spa. The city inspector told us to put them there, we did, and he signed off on them. And that's that.
Terminator
might that not be so there's NO question what box goes with what tub? I'm assuming you've got multiple tubs set and raring to go at all times...
-
Every single 220V spa in our showroom is set up with the sub-panel right next to the spa. The city inspector told us to put them there, we did, and he signed off on them. And that's that.
Terminator
I assume your customers aren't getting into the box while wet testing.
-
When my electric was installed the shut off box had to be between 5 and 15 feet from the spa by code, according to the inspector.
-
Every single 220V spa in our showroom is set up with the sub-panel right next to the spa. The city inspector told us to put them there, we did, and he signed off on them. And that's that. Terminator
Maybe he realized that as you moved your displays around the distances would change along with tub placement. He did you a favor by making it easy for you. Hope you bought him a beer. ;)
-
There are good inspectors and there are just plain idiots. Electrical safety is part of my job. I perform inspections and modifications on new and used equipment to meet modern electrical code. I have seen work performed by and/or approved by many an idiot. My advice to everyone is to install the disconnect / GFI 10 to 30 feet and within site as most codes recommend.
Steve
-
Luvmytub,
As the guy who started this whole mess, I hope I didn't rain on your parade. You've spent a bundle of money on your tub and everything and you want to be able to enjoy it. Safely. But Bosco is right, should the GFCI trip, it's just too convenient and too dangerous of a temptation to reach out from the tub and reset it. I also agree with Tatooed Lady, it's the electrician's job, not yours, to know code. And if he/she doesn't, they should get up to speed before hooking it up. That's one of the reasons why their billing rates are a dollar a minute or more. Call him/her up, get his/her tail back and get it done right!!! If he/she won't fix the situation, don't hesitate to call the local building department for an inspection. Inspectors are fully aware of the potential for electrocution in a hot tub. They won't tolerate something as blatant of a code violation as your disconnect box's location appears to be. I think you'll find inspectors can be very persuasive; another job of theirs might be held hostage until yours is done properly. By the way, our building department here in Portland, OR is very willing to help. They stay open until eight on Thursday evenings for d-i-y'ers. My experience with them has been nothing but friendly and quite positive. Print out your picture, take it down to them and ask. They'll tell you their professional opinion.
You might also inquire about the light above your tub. Given its proximity to the tub, I suspect code requires it to be protected by a GFCI as well. Again, I'm not an electrician, not even close, but it goes along with what Bosco said. The temptation of changing that bulb while you're in the tub is very real, especially if it's cold outside, could have some deadly consequences.
Finally, here's a link to an online help forum for d-i-y'ers doing electrical work: http://www.handymanwire.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB2. I'd suggest posting your picture and asking their opinion of your installation. I guarantee you'll get some excellent advice from the electricians there.
Good luck!
Jim
-
Brooke is right, I did try the tiles, but the solid ones. I also tried mats with holes. Neither really worked well, since everything seems to freeze so fast. Finally, I bought a cheap large outdoor rug from Walmart and put it out when we go in the tub and bring it in and dry it and vacuum it when we are done. That sounds like a lot of work but I haven't found anything that prevents slipping on the icy steps or deck. I got in the other night and when my kids got out, they dripped on my flip flops. By the time I was ready to get out, the shoes had frozen fast to the steps. I couldn't pull them off without ripping them. So I haven't figured out how to prevent ice on the steps yet... :-/
-
I haven't figured out how to prevent ice on the steps yet...
Boni,
Try an old towel.
-
wouldn't it be nice to be able to enclose a bathroom heat lamp or a space heater in plastic or something that won't be affected by the water and have it under the steps? Hmmm.....how about those heat packs that they sell in winter to keep your fingers and toes from freezing? wrap a couple in a towel on the REALLY cold nights, lay it across the steps so ice doesn't form.....?
-
Well, if he is a "reputable, trusted, expensive" electrician, then the inspector WILL make him move the box. Oh uh wait, is he pulling a permit? Call them back and make them move it and then call the inspector in if they don't. If we don't see you here soon, we will know why.
Steve
Easy enough to deal with.....Called the Electrical Safety Authority (or whateever they're called in your neck of the woods) and ask when you can expect the inspector.
Everything should then take care of itself.
An Electrician is required to pull a permit BEFORE starting work. An Inspector will only come out to inspect on a permit.
Situation goes something like:
You: When can I expect the inspector?
Inspector: for what?
You: to inspect the hot tub I just had installed
Inspector: Did you pull a permit?
You: Gee, I dunno. Mr Electrician just came and did the work.
Inspector: I see....*grumble grumble*
behind the scenes, Mr Electrician probably gets a reamin, and will likely end up having to do your wiring correctly or lose his licence.
-
Wrong Tman!
You are in danger of getting electrocuted.
Get that box moved away from the tub.
There are many things that could go wrong here, short and long term. A faulty GFI due to exposure to the elements for one thing. Just ask the local electrical inspector.
Steve
I'd like to know why I am wrong?????
Your not neccesarily in danger of getting electrocuted when you reach out for the box while your in the spa.
Your simply in code violation which does not mean your in danger. Codes are designed to protect people, and this one was designed to prevent elecrocution.
Hmmmmmmm
-
Tmann,
You're not wrong in what you said...
I think that he was complaining about the beginning of your reply... when you stated that "You're not neccessarily in danger of getting electrocuted" .
-You're right! You're not in danger...unless something went wrong in that GFI box. Then you could be in danger.
I believe that is what he was referring too.
-
There is an old saying that I have to be carefull with because some may think I am not safety concious but I truely am, but know how to balance it between margins.
Safety rules are put in place to keep stupid people alive. Or an unsafe person is mother natures way of getting rid of stupid people.
Now remember I said I wanted to be carefull not to offend or put any lighter spin on the importance of safety. But if we always were worried about being 100 percent safe we would not drive (possible accident), install a hot tub (possible drowning), step outside (possible meteor strike or lightning) go up and down steps (possible fall hazard) well you get the idea.
Selling this house with this code violation could be a problem if it's noticed by the inspector. Install an external shut off next to the box and put a lock on the GFCI box. But you will still be in code violation. Move the tub over so it is 5 feet away.
So be carefull original poster and sorry it was pointed out.
-
Reply to Tman122
In todays industrial environment, we install safety systems to help prevent injuries. From light curtains on automated equipment to full guarding on plastic injection machines. Serious penalties are put in place by most companies for anyone defeating these safeties. All of the systems that I install are designed as failsafe by multiple directives including IEC and OSHA. To make something failsafe, we must have two components (ie. relays) in series and must include a monitoring unit that looks for an off state of these devices (reset) between cycles. Without getting into too much detail, machine safety and electrical safety are my business, I speak from experience, not opinion. I do not choose whether the "stupid" should have the opportunity for death or serious injury. Would you buy a spa that will not pass UL or ETL approval. I think not, but then again, I don't make decisions for stupid people either. I don't wan't to worry about my kid or some "stupid" intoxicated person reaching for that box while in hot water. If you would like, I can give you a list of possible things that could go wrong here. I attend monthly meetings of the Ontario Electrical League and besides several that I can think of, a poll of my collegues should provide many more. I provide advice here based on experiece, research and or fact.
Steve