Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Tatooed_Lady on February 16, 2006, 10:11:51 pm
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Okay, after all the FINE advice I've read on this site....I've gotten a little curious. So I checked around, and lo and behold....I found another spa dealer within 10 miles of my house! How'd I miss that one before?? Anyhow...I called, got this nice girl on the phone, asked if they were open today?? (we got a foot of snow since last night up this way), she said that she and other employees were all debating on staying or bailing for the day. I asked about spas that they carried...they carry.....Jacuzzi, Tiger River and Hot Springs....well, I'll be dipped in dog......nevermind. So she told me if I wanted to come down, just let her know a solid 'yes', and they'd stay open just for little old me. I had to consult with the husband, and called back in a few minutes to let her know that YES we would come in. She had their spa tech go out and plow out their driveway, because the city plowboy came through and buried the drive.....she wanted to be sure we could get in! WOW.....So now I'm WAY curious....we went down, and I wasn't particularly impressed with the showroom, but they DID have 2 aboveground pools set up, so that takes a little room....they've also got several older hot tubs taking up room, so only had 3 (?) NEW tubs. The Grandee, the J345 and the Sovereign. They also had a 2004 J375 setup with water in it, and only about 69 degrees *BRRRRRRR*
She excused herself for a minute, grabbed her BABY (tiny little thing, looked sorta like Yoda (SHE said that first, wasn't MY observation))....and proceeded to tell me everything she and their tech could about the tubs they had, what was in the brochure, etc. I asked if they could take the front panel off on the J375, and *POOF* done. I took my boots off, sat in a few tubs.....checked out the working model's lights, waterfalls, jets, seating, depth, etc....
They made us feel VERY comfortable and welcome.. I told her I was sorry for making her stay late when she had her baby to care for, she brushed that concern off, and SMILED....omg, they actually smile BEFORE you sign a check here!!!!
Here's where the wish for tact comes in.....I've got a couple hundred down on the Great Lakes tub to hold it....but the couple that I THINK owns the place couldn't be bothered to take the front panel off for me (I'd like to see that it doesn't look like things are falling apart, even if I don't know what everything does...), even after being asked TWICE. I feel like I'm intruding on the woman's time when I'm there....just a generally uncomfortable feeling.
Now I know that the GL dealer will NOT be pleased when I go in and say "I've changed my mind", however I feel that finding a dealer that's not just after the almighty dollar is SUCH a relief.....that I'd be willing to lose the downpayment just to have the peace of mind.
Is there a tactful way to do this? I mean, I love the feel of the Leelanau, but I think I could love one of the other tubs as much if not more, knowing the dealer would be there for us if we needed them at a later date, and didn't have to "pencil us in".
*patiently awating the flame of the dealers*
Edit: the HS dealer also told me she'd heat up the J375 for me for a wet test, even though they don't do many of them.....just have to call and schedule an appointment so they can cover and heat it. TOO COOL.
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Well... I'd say go with your gut.  If you can afford to lose a couple hundred bucks and the other dealer has something in your price range that you like... I'd go for it.  I bought used and have no dealer, but am a firm believer in doing business with someone you like and trust.  You better believe I will never do business at Honda Cars of Corona ever again.  They don't even get my routine maintenance cause they pissed me off.  They treated me like crap after I dropped 30k on a car.  I now drive 30 miles away now to get my routine maintenance done.  (And people {you know who you are}please don't bash me for owning a Honda  ;))
Edited because I got off track...
Anyway, with regard to the tact part.. I would just say you changed your mind. If they push for details say you found another tub that you liked better (fit your needs, etc.). I probably wouldn't say that you liked the other dealer better, but nothing wrong with saying you found a tub you liked better.
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My wife and I wet tested many different brands and we finally put a deposit on a tub. I was not real crazy about the salesman but I did like the tub. After I got home I did some checking with the BBB and low and behold my hunch was correct--this dealer was involved with multiple complaints - well I called the salesman back and requested a refund and was told no!!!
Good thing I had made the deposit with a credit card as I called the credit card company explained my concerns and they started to investigate on my behalf.
6 months later I did get a full refund but no thanks to the dealer. The best part of the story is a few days later I found a dealer about 15 min away that carried several brands (hot springs being one of them) and the dealer experience was so awsome I purchased a new hot springs grandee that day. This was almost 2 years ago now and I still enjoy going to the dealer for my supplies and misc. items. We have found that the after care and service the dealer gives you is just as important as the initial sale. I feel we were lucky to have such a great dealer so close that actually cares about his customer and not just the $$$$. So go request a refund from the first guy and give your business to somebody that really wants it and has earned it...................
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I'll have to check the paperwork I signed....I believe it's a nonrefundable deposit, but as I said...I'd rather bite it on the couple hundred NOW than bite it on the service LATER....
Dealers, listen up *lol* I don't know if EVERY customer that goes to this store is treated like this, or if it's just because I happen to go places in jeans and t-shirts...but my money is as good as the next person's, even if she IS wearing a Rolex. I work hard as hell for my money, and I'm not going to throw it at someone just because I like what they have to offer anymore unless they are giving me a reason to buy their product. I LIKE the Great Lakes tub. I really think it's comfortable. HOWEVER.....I'm taking my several thousand dollar sale up the road to someone who makes me feel like they'll take care of me if I have any problems in the future.....I wonder how many other sales were lost due to customers feeling like they're not getting the dealer's full attention during questioning?
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Go with what is right for YOU. You put down a deposit, which means you're asking them to hold the spa and/or price, you're not asking them to carve your name in siding. If they give you a hard time you have to wonder how dealing with them in the future would be if you purchased. If you decide in the end to go back to them this will be a good sign to know how they are to deal with.
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The tub I put money on is a closeout from '05, last of its kind, blah, blah, coulda sold it 2 minutes after I signed the check, blah blah...it'll be interesting, at very least....but I owe them at LEAST as much as telling them that I'm bowing out, instead of just walking away and not calling or anything. So I'll do that and try to do it without name calling, soaping their windows or tp'ing their store...... ;D
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I am so upset. Â A recent physical shows my blood pressure to be high normal and they don't know for sure if we can control it with diet and exercise or medication. Â Until we find that out the Doc said that sitting in a hot tub is a bad idea. Â So I've decided to put off buying a spa until this gets straightened out. Â
I hope it isn't too big a problem for you but after further consideration I don't think a spa is a good thing at this time. Â I have already spent money on site preparation and I am stressing out over canceling my order and it is making the blood pressure problem worse.
The Doctor thinks it might eventually be controllable and if it does get cleared up, you will be the 1st place I visit since you have been up front and fair with me. Â
Is it more convenient for you to issue a refund of the deposit by check or credit my card? Â Thank you for being so understanding.
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I know this is a little dishonest, but if you don’t think they will give you a refund after you tell the truth, what have you got to lose?  If they were a little more customer-friendly you wouldn’t be looking elsewhere, so this isn’t entirely your fault.
One word of caution about the new dealer: Â Over the years I have learned to be wary of enterprises that have kids, especially infants, where business is conducted. Â It is okay to be dedicated to your kids, but allowing them to interfere during business hours shows where the customer stands on the priority list. Â If it happens before the sale you know what to expect after the sale.
Other than that, the new dealer sounds like good people.
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Honesty is generally the best policy....and I try to live by it!
Be honest with them,and tell then you found a tub that matches your comfort level. You can apologize etc to them,and tell them you wish you had looked around more prior to leaving a deposit,and leave it at that.
In the end,you want a product that you will be happy with initially,and in the future.
If none of that works....tell em yer brother Guido will be visiting them shortly/grin ;)
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Brookenstein....
Couldn't help myself...had to respond...I own a Honda also and went through the same thing; take mine for maintenance where I bought it about 25 miles away because the idiots here in my town pissed me off and I won't deal with them...and I had bought my first Honda with them and had it maintained by them for 4 years too! (Until my daughter got hit by a drunk driver and it got totalled... >:( )
Anyway, as far as the original question... :) I would also just tell them you changed your mind....nothing wrong in doing that, although not so sure you'll get your money back.
Well... I'd say go with your gut.  If you can afford to lose a couple hundred bucks and the other dealer has something in your price range that you like... I'd go for it.  I bought used and have no dealer, but am a firm believer in doing business with someone you like and trust.  You better believe I will never do business at Honda Cars of Corona ever again.  They don't even get my routine maintenance cause they pissed me off.  They treated me like crap after I dropped 30k on a car.  I now drive 30 miles away now to get my routine maintenance done.  (And people {you know who you are}please don't bash me for owning a Honda  ;))
Edited because I got off track...
Anyway, with regard to the tact part.. I would just say you changed your mind. Â If they push for details say you found another tub that you liked better (fit your needs, etc.). Â I probably wouldn't say that you liked the other dealer better, but nothing wrong with saying you found a tub you liked better.
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One word of caution about the new dealer: Â Over the years I have learned to be wary of enterprises that have kids, especially infants, where business is conducted. Â It is okay to be dedicated to your kids, but allowing them to interfere during business hours shows where the customer stands on the priority list. Â If it happens before the sale you know what to expect after the sale.
Other than that, the new dealer sounds like good people.
actually, I just talked to a lady that works with my hubby...she said her husband bought a tub from this company awhile back (during his previous marriage), their friends bought from them, there's a thermostat and gasket waiting to be fixed (when the money comes in) and that job has been directed STRAIGHT to this company...lots of local WOWs over the dealership, and the munchkin didn't interfere with the sale, far as I'm concerned.....The sales girl gave me undivided attention, and answered all my questions (except for when she felt that junior was barfing over her arm....lol). But all in all, I'm almost giddy with finding a company that treats me like a paying customer. :)
High blood pressure, huh? Hmmm....well, they met the family, so they'd probably buy it. *ROTFL*
I might have to go the honesty route...just let them know that I'm not comfortable buying a major item from someone that can't take less than 5 minutes out of their "BUSY" (no one in the store) day to remove 4 screws, just to satisfy my curiosity...and if they get bitchy, I'll point out that THAT doesn't help, either.....I wouldn't feel comfortable even purchasing my chemicals from them, so the deal's OFF.
Thanks again, all......you've been VERY helpful. :)
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Tattoo
I havent read through all of your replies, and other notes, but have you backed out of this tub?
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Tubaholic, same thing happened to me. Be careful when you put a deposit down to "hold" something.
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I made my dealer take the side of befor ei bought and explain everyting inside. If they hadnt i wouldnt have bought it no matter how good of a deal!!
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tat
i hope it doesnt come down to name calling/tp'ing their showroom. but, like many have said.....if you get a hassle over your deposit/decision now you know what to expect in the future.
good luck, and please keep us posted. and congrats on finding a dealer that made you feel comfortable.
not that it matters.......i generally dress in t-shirt & jeans when shopping. more so for higher end items. if they dont talk/ackowledge me, i walk. im a big believer in respecting the person, not their dress.
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ok, i just reread my post....it says "t nuts" :o but when i go to modify/correct it, it actually says t shirt. ??? whats going on around here??????????????
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Tatt
May I be frank?
I don't know what to tell you about refunding any money down on the Great Lakes tub. If you sigend a contract you are bound by it. However at the dealers discreation he may let you out of it.
What has caught my attention is, I get the impression that you really haven't researched the tubs and thier features and whats available in the market.
I know you got the GL deal after a quick trip to the store for some aquirium sand, and now you have questins, and possible regrets.
I'd like to see you get the the tub that's right for you, andyou know what you are getting and not getting before signing on the dotted line.
I sincerely recomend that before you do any serious shopping, take some time to think about the features and qualities you want. Put togethor a budget, perhaps discuss you plans here and then start to serious look around at all the hot tubs that are available in your area, do some wet testing and share your thoughts here.
:D
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SoCal, I am laughing so hard, the tears are flying. I don't know why but your post was sooo funny to me.
I have a feeling that when t-lady got edited for saying the "b" word (pregnant dog), it set some kind of editing thing in motion and your shirt was picked up as being tee  sh##. Haaaa ha, That is just so funny....I must be silly but that is so funny!!
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bonie,
ty for laughing at my pain ;) ;D i didnt even catch it at 1st. but when i checked the newer posts i was like "whooaaaaaa hold on here". i just wanted to make clear that i was indeed trying to say "tee shirt" and not the "other" item lol.
glad i could make ya laugh, even if it was by accident lol
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not that it matters.......i generally dress in t-shi*t & jeans when shopping. more so for higher end items. if they dont talk/ackowledge me, i walk. im a big believer in respecting the person, not their dress.
Look closely. Â Your post doesn't say T-nuts or T-shirt. Â Maybe you ned to start there.
By the way, this is a T-nut.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/VeroSnowbird/TNut.gif)
When you wear t-nuts, just where exactly do you put them?
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oh my, have you ever had something just hit you as so funny that you can't stop laughing? this is crazy but for some reason it is so funny to me! I can just imagine your expression Socal when you saw your post with t nut...I need a life!!!! T-Lady, sorry, your post was serious and I didn't mean to detract from it. I hope you get things worked out because it sure doesn't seem fair to have to lose your deposit since the tub is on the floor and it wasn't special ordered. If you approach the manager in a nice way and tell them that you just reacted too fast and didn't realize all that was involved with installing a hot tub. Maybe if they seem reluctant you could ask if they would refund your deposit if they are able to find another buyer within a month. I think that would be reasonable. Or you could say, I know you may not want to refund my deposit, but would you consider giving me a store credit for my chemicals (or fish tank things) I find you have a better chance of persuading someone when you start with a positive approach and then get creative. Good luck...
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Did you use a credit card for down payment?
If so, you may have better recourse through your credit card company getting your deposit back.
I had a bad dealer cause me problems last year when I was shopping. I went to one place after taking to him at a home show. I looked and was interested in one model... He told me I needed to fill out a credit application to be "pre-qualified" and thus he could give me a better deal. I did, and didn't think too much about it although I had not heard that one before. I asked and was told nothing would be charged until I bought and took delivery...
I wanted to wet test the spa but then he had a long song and dance about not wanting to fill with water, heat them, etc, etc...He had ONE space out of approx 20 filled and it was not heated. I said okay and went on my way figuring if he could not let anyone wet test, he wasn't serious about selling...
Approx 45 days later I get a bill in the mail for $10,000! I didn't know why. Here he had charged a spa to this account and when I called he said he was waiting to deliver it!! I wrote the credit card finance co.. No answer. I wrote again and called the local office of the credit card finance co. The lady on the phone hooked us up in a three way call and told the merchant he knows he cannot charge to an account UNTIL A SPA IS DELIVERED... He admitted I had not bought and taken delivery of a spa...I thought things were cleared up but it was from April to Dec to get the account cleared up, back to a zero balance, and closed.
Now in the meantime I am having to dispute things with the credit bureau as the finance company showed I am 90 days or more late, affecting my credit score.. all on an account I never opened or used..
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Although it is too late for drewstar to be frank ;D, he is correct. It appears to be the dealer's option to return your deposit or keep it.
From what you have described, they don't seem like the kind of people to return a deposit unless there something in it for them... like perhaps a future sale to replace this lost one. If tell them you want out to go buy another brand they will look at your deposit as a gift.
Some might say that it's their right, but a good dealer is more interested in a future sale and a good reputation than a few free bucks.
That is why I suggested you tell them something that would leave open a possibility of a future sale. If you had special ordered it I would recommend you throw yourself on the dealer's mercy.
Here is what my dealer did for me when I was having buyer's remorse.
We did our measurements and tests and bought (ordered) a 8 ft square J385. As we built the hot tub room addition I was beginning to get worried about the size of the tub versus the size of the room.
After the tub was in but not delivered we finally had 3 of the walls and the ceiling built. We had to leave one wall open to get the tub in. When the sheathing went on the studs the room began to look very small after laying out for that big tub.
Two days before delivery, I got the tape out again and had another panic attack. I called the dealer and explained the situation and asked if I could get the 365 instead of the 385. They were perfectly willing to do it except the 365 had been sold and we would have to wait a couple months for the next one.
But she said she would see what she could do. She worked a deal that would get me the 365, put the 385 on the floor and get the other customers the next 365. But before she finalized it she called me and asked us to be sure. SWMBO and I talked it out and decided to stay with the original deal since it was a problem we created. In the end the size was no problem and I was worried needlessly.
But the dealer certainly earned my respect. I couldn't have asked for better service. They actually cared alot about my satisfaction. As a result, I recommend them whenever somebody asks.
http://spashowcase.com/
Good luck
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AS bonnie suggested, a store credit might be doable.
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Look closely. Â Your post doesn't say T-nuts or T-shirt. Â Maybe you ned to start there.
By the way, this is a T-nut.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/VeroSnowbird/TNut.gif)
When you wear t-nuts, just where exactly do you put them?
ok, situation solved.....lousy typos ;D
ill be in the corner if anyone needs me
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I need you...I am still laughing... Hey if we pay extra can we get spell check on here?
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Tattoo
I havent read through all of your replies, and other notes, but have you backed out of this tub?
I'm working on it....haven't gone to the GL dealership yet, had to get some things straight at the HS/Jacuzzi place first.....
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Tatt
May I be frank?
What has caught my attention is, I get the impression that you really haven't researched the tubs and thier features and whats available in the market.
I know you got the GL deal after a quick trip to the store for some aquirium sand, and now you have questins, and possible regrets.
I'd like to see you get the the tub that's right for you, andyou know what you are getting and not getting before signing on the dotted line.
I sincerely recomend that before you do any serious shopping, take some time to think about the features and qualities you want. Â Put togethor a budget, perhaps discuss you plans here and then start to serious look around at all the hot tubs that are available in your area, do some wet testing and share your thoughts here.
:D
drewstar,
1) you can be frank only if he doesn't complain.
2)Budget isn't so much my concern, I'm shopping in about the $6-$7k range, which leaves me with options. The concern was the integrity of the people I was dealing with, and the more I read on here about people that are fortunate enough to have a dealer that bends over backwards for them, the more I got to thinking about my level of discomfort with the one I was dealing with.
I like the GL tub, and if I felt I could trust the dealer to service it later without my feeling like I'm disrupting their lives in the pursuit of customer satisfaction, I'd be good to go. This, however isn't the case.
So I found another local shop, and I've managed to speak extensively with a couple of the employees there, and have found "spa store nirvana" in their low pressure sales style. I also went back today for another look at the lineup that they've got in stock, gave them another dry-sit (the wet test will maybe be this weekend), just to see what my impressions were today as opposed to yesterday.
I found that by realizing no two brands will feel the same, and keeping in mind that with water comes quite a bit of weightlessness, that my options opened up a bit.
I don't feel that there's a "perfect tub" for me in our price range, but I DO think we could buy any one of several and be quite happy in the long run. I realize I won't be getting a Grandee, or top of the line 400 series Jacuzzi, or this, that or the other..no stereo, no tv, no jets that make dinner after they've done the wash....I'm alright with that, I just want a comfortable tub to hold hot water, and jets that work to relieve some MAJOR stress points for myself and my husband.
Not to be long-winded on this post (for a change it's accidental! ;) ), but I'd like a nice, middle of the road tub for us that is backed by people that give a darn, and don't think I'm being unreasonable by demanding that.
:)
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I've gotta tell you...I looked at Jacuzzi after years of telling myself it was going to be a Hotspring tub I bought. I LOVED them!! I was sold on the 385, then the salesman mentioned Jacuzzi's "higher end" line called Sundance. Went home, checked out the website, saw the Maxxus, checked it out; LOVED it ;D ...mostly because of larger size and better sound system. I just went back to Jacuzzi's site to peek at the 375, and I'm sure you'll love it too. I think you're on the right track with looking for a dealer who places high importance on customer service. I'm a bit of an impulse buyer...did a lot of research in a short time (much as you are) and pulled the trigger. No regrets here 8)
Happy hunting!!
Steve
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 I just went back to Jacuzzi's site to peek at the 375, and I'm sure you'll love it too.  I think you're on the right track with looking for a dealer who places high importance on customer service.  I'm a bit of an impulse buyer...did a lot of research in a short time (much as you are) and pulled the trigger. No regrets here 8)
Thanks, Steve! Ya know.....even the 345 felt good, only differences being no lounger (my son really really really wants a lounger... *sigh*), a little smaller unit, and 36" deep instead of 38". I think with my hubby's 6'3 frame, the 2" MIGHT make a little difference in HIS comfort level, so I'm shooting for the 375, if it's still available when our money comes through.....if it's sold by then (floor model, discount, you know the story), I'll have to have a "plan b" in my back pocket......shouldn't be TOO hard to do....there are a few tubs around that price that seemed comfy. :)
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T-Lady,
I am 6'7" and I can tell you that your hubby will greatly appreciate the 38" deep model. It was one of the selling points for the 385 over the other models. I notice that the new 400 series tubs are advertising 44 inches high. The seats might be 40 inches deep.
As to the lounge, he probably won't enjoy it that much. His feet will extend past the foot/calf jets and into the other seat. If he is wider than the wrist jets most likely they will be covered by his thighs.
A shorter smaller person should enjoy the seat.
We did not like the 365 since it had the foot well. While we like the foot massage we felt that the dome in the middle of the floor interferred with movement and could be a little dangerous IMHO. The 385 has an unobstructed foot well since the foot jets are mounted on the sides.
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Wow....turning into a Jacuzzi discussion, and I'm GOOD with that....they have the J375 (filled and running), the Grandee (empty) the J345 (empty) plus one Soveriegn (empty) on the floor. I plan to wet test the J375 maybe tomorrow, I need to call the dealer first and schedule an appointment....this way my husband can go along, and we can see how HE feels about the layout.
The lounge is something my son is all hot for, not my husband....my son's around 5'8 and still growing at this point, but the tub's not for HIM, it's for me and my husband, so whatever WE decide on is what goes. ;)
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Lady,
You are right about the J-345 probably being too small for your husband.
I am 6' and have to sink down in the seat to get a good neck massage in our J-345.
Had to compromise because a deeper tub probably would have been too deep for my wife, she insists she's 5'2" :)
Overall though the J-345 is a great tub and we are very happy with it.
Steve
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would have been too deep for my wife, she insists she's 5'2" :)
Is she saying she's 5'2" or perhaps she means that she's "Five, Too"??
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drewstar,
1) you can be frank only if he doesn't complain.
2)Budget isn't so much my concern, I'm shopping in about the $6-$7k range, which leaves me with options. The concern was the integrity of the people I was dealing with, and the more I read on here about people that are fortunate enough to have a dealer that bends over backwards for them, the more I got to thinking about my level of discomfort with the one I was dealing with.
I like the GL tub, and if I felt I could trust the dealer to service it later without my feeling like I'm disrupting their lives in the pursuit of customer satisfaction, I'd be good to go. This, however isn't the case.
So I found another local shop, and I've managed to speak extensively with a couple of the employees there, and have found "spa store nirvana" in their low pressure sales style. I also went back today for another look at the lineup that they've got in stock, gave them another dry-sit (the wet test will maybe be this weekend), just to see what my impressions were today as opposed to yesterday.
I found that by realizing no two brands will feel the same, and keeping in mind that with water comes quite a bit of weightlessness, that my options opened up a bit.
I don't feel that there's a "perfect tub" for me in our price range, but I DO think we could buy any one of several and be quite happy in the long run. I realize I won't be getting a Grandee, or top of the line 400 series Jacuzzi, or this, that or the other..no stereo, no tv, no jets that make dinner after they've done the wash....I'm alright with that, I just want a comfortable tub to hold hot water, and jets that work to relieve some MAJOR stress points for myself and my husband.
Not to be long-winded on this post (for a change it's accidental! ;) ), but I'd like a nice, middle of the road tub for us that is backed by people that give a darn, and don't think I'm being unreasonable by demanding that.
:)
Yes, I can be Frank (OR I can be Earnest, if you prefer) :)
i'm concerend becasue you are in WI and concerend about heating costs and insualtion, and i don't belive the GL is the tub line for you. As others have stated, It's only a partialy foamed tub.
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strangely enough, although given yet ANOTHER chance to "play nice", the GL dealer still couldn't pull that trick out of their anal cavity, so...we looked into financing, and while doing that, found a company that will refinance my car at a lower rate and we'll find out today if we can get a personal loan for the tub....
BUT.....it won't be the GL, even though the dealer SWORE that GL does SUCH a fantastic job at insulating their tubs, and FINALLY (with much griping, whining and stalling) got off his butt and got the front panel off so I could look underneath....I realized that
a) they aren't about to change and play nice, and
b) I really do NOT want to hitch my wagon to THEIR company, especially if I need warranty work in the next couple years....
So I've decided to go for it with the HS/Jacuzzi dealer, and if all the loan/refinancing thing goes thru, I'll be able to put enough down to order an '06 Grandee...the price held me back because they're not cheap, and I'd have to come up with about half down to order one.
Failing in that, we'll still be able to work something out with one of their Jacuzzi lineup.
When shopping for cars a couple years back, I tried to leave my options open as much as possible....I was REALLY looking for a smaller wagon (yeah, I know, grocery getter), I had 2 dealers fighting over who could bend me over farther, and I got tired of it, so went to a THIRD dealership, and bought myself an '04 Grand Am....NOT a wagon, but it's given me WAY more pleasure than the cars I was originally looking at, and is nicely loaded. That's how I'm working through the tubs...any one of several could easily fit our needs/wants, it's just a matter of figuring out warranty, who we want to deal with in the long run, what finances dictate, and what offers the leg room and jet placement that we need and going from there.