Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Snyper on February 05, 2006, 11:58:07 pm
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One way I solved all the problems of freaking out over every little water issue that comes, is to change the water every 6 weeks or so. My life sure got easier after I started doing this.
I spent more time worring about the hot tub's water than I did in enjoying it.
Try it and enjoy the freedom of USING the tub and now fretting over every little pH or brom level.
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I hear what you're saying but most consumers find the act of draining and refilling very time consuming. Most prefer to gain a good understanding of watercare and not micromanage it and find that over time, they can easily get 3-4 months or more out their water without worrying about everything.
New water is great but at the end of the year, I bet you're spending far more time and money in draining & refilling that often, than most of us are.
Do you have good local support for your watercare? What sanitizer & products are you using?
Steve
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I hear what you're saying but most consumers find the act of draining and refilling very time consuming. Most prefer to gain a good understanding of watercare and not micromanage it and find that over time, they can easily get 3-4 months or more out their water without worrying about everything.
New water is great but at the end of the year, I bet you're spending far more time and money in draining & refilling that often, than most of us are.
Do you have good local support for your watercare? What sanitizer & products are you using?
Steve
I have great local water support, but for me, it takes so little time to empty and refill. Total of maybe 1 hour. Of course I have a 2 inch pump and can empty my tub is about 15 minutes.
I've tried the "normal" way and just felt like my time was wasted and found a MUCH easier solution.
I understand not everyone feels this way, but for me, it works.
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If it works for you, then it is best for you.
I generally get four months out of my water and really never worry about water issues. I use a simple chlorine system. I don't know how it could get much easier. Heck, I even hate to swap out my filters every month. I live in a cool weather climate, so I would imagine it would get costly heating water from scratch on a regular basis. And you still have keep your water in balance and sanitize.
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Every time you refill, you reheat at the cost of approximately $15 at .09 @ kW hr.
We have found most difficult for engineers because of their exacting science, everything must fit, or be within specifications exactly. They tend to micro manage the water.
I am not assuming that you are an engineer, but the majority of our customer go long term on water changes with no problem. One year would be a normal recommend time frame, some have gone far beyond one year with the ability to maintain water quality and still use the spa on a regular basis 4 to 5 times a week.
I would not want to tell you the longest time that we know of because it would only draw a lot of skeptics. But, my customer support our claims that their water is clean and clear and their chemical consumption cost borders approximately $50 a year, certainly less than $100, and we can guarantee that if the customer wants us to, just like HS guarantees their electrical consumption.
If you have to change your water so frequently, this is a simple way of accomplishing good clean water, but your electric bill will be higher because of it.
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the majority of our customer go long term on water changes with no problem. One year would be a normal recommend time frame, some have gone far beyond one year with the ability to maintain water quality and still use the spa on a regular basis 4 to 5 times a week.
Am I seeing this right ???..1 year between changes? I thought 3 - 4 months was "normal" and after that TDS usually ended up being a problem. I'm at almost 3 months, and water is crystal clear, but I was still planning to change it at 4 months. This is my first time keeping water this long due to other warranty issues. Anyone else with feedback on this one?
Steve
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I'm curious about the heating charge thing.
isn't 15$ a bit hight? at .10 cents per kwh doesn't that come out to like 150 hours?
Is my math screwed up?
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I'm curious about the heating charge thing.
isn't 15$ a bit hight? at .10 cents per kwh doesn't that come out to like 150 hours?
Is my math screwed up?
I think jmcd is mixed up on this one. If the tub will run heat and pumps for 20-30 per month It seems that 15.00 is a bit much to heat 1 time in a 8-10hr heating period. Maybe, but it makes a person go hmmmm??
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My 5.5 Kilowatt heater should run non-stop for 15 hours at 4 degree rise per hour and 42 degree fill temp. If my math is correct, 15 hours x 5.5 kw = 82.5 kw-hours x $.09 / kwh = $7.43. The circ pump will also be on , but is on 24/7 anyway on my model. Maybe with the 15 hours of heater AND jet pump on other brands it could reach $15??
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.09 cents a kilowatt. Wish we only paid that. Ours is .13 cents.
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$4 - $8 would be a closer bet on average to heat an average 4-6 person spa with a 5.5kw heater. 8-10 hours is the average operating time to do so.
Having water for one year or more is NOT recommended. There's no magic here and chemical makeup of water is the chemical makeup of water. Sure, some municipalities have lower TDS but an average family of 4 using the spa 3-5 times per week should get 3-4 months on average out of their water. I have seen some go longer while staying under the 1500TDS reading where a spa should be drained.
In my experience, the people suggesting that they're getting more than 6 months are usually basing it on water clarity which we all know is a mistake. Since we know that there's no "product" that removes or lowers TDS, the only way I know to get a year or more out of your water is not use the tub or add anything to it. I believe they call that a swamp... ;)
It has nothing to do with being "skeptical" J._McD... it's all about the chemical makeup of H2O.
If you have a program that can offer this extended use, I’d love to know it! What are you contributing this extended period of time on?
Thanks, Steve
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If changing my water every three months was an option I would do that. I filled my spa in November so I am kind of thinking it is time but living in cold Iowa makes it hard to change in the winter.
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Am I seeing this right ???..1 year between changes? I thought 3 - 4 months was "normal" and after that TDS usually ended up being a problem. I'm at almost 3 months, and water is crystal clear, but I was still planning to change it at 4 months. This is my first time keeping water this long due to other warranty issues. Anyone else with feedback on this one?
Steve
If you consider what is “normal” you will rely on industry standards that recommend a daily combination of chemicals to maintain your water. This is where Total Dissolved Solids come from. They can also be the residual of “inert” ingredients within the chemical that continue to accumulate in the water, look at your label for inert ingredients.
If you water is crystal clear, and let us assume your TDS were low to non existent, why do you need to change your water? It appears your ozonator is doing its job. Ozone does not contribute to TDS count, but may help to reduce them. Think about it.
My 5.5 Kilowatt heater should run non-stop for 15 hours at 4 degree rise per hour and 42 degree fill temp. If my math is correct, 15 hours x 5.5 kw = 82.5 kw-hours x $.09 / kwh = $7.43. The circ pump will also be on , but is on 24/7 anyway on my model. Maybe with the 15 hours of heater AND jet pump on other brands it could reach $15??
I am glad to see that I have triggered some minds to thinking. Yes, depending on the type of spa and the insulation type, it can cost from $7 to “as much as” $15. You can calculate how many British Thermal Units are required to raise temperature determined also by the number of gallons to be heated. Then you can mathematically calculate the cost of heat recovery determined by the seasonal temperature of ground water. Thenumber of degrees that must be recovered to reach 104° will vary by season. In the winter, water will come out of the ground at 46° to 48° in this area. In the milder climates or spring summer and fall, water will come out of the ground typically around 52° to 56°. The number of BTU's can be determine by the amount of heat rise required, which can be converted to kW consumed, and I see some have already begun to calculate the math.
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Now users of enzyme systems such as the Natural regularly get six months to a year out of their water from what I understand.
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………….Having water for one year or more is NOT recommended. There's no magic here and chemical makeup of water is the chemical makeup of water…… I have seen some go longer while staying under the 1500TDS reading where a spa should be drained.
I would agree, in this industry it is not recommended and the norm is what the dealer tells you. Water is H2O, nothing more nothing less. TDS are what is added to the H2O. This is where, I would suggest that people do a TDS sampling prior to draining their Hot tub.
In my experience, the people suggesting that they're getting more than 6 months are usually basing it on water clarity which we all know is a mistake. Since we know that there's no "product" that removes or lowers TDS, the only way I know to get a year or more out of your water is not use the tub or add anything to it. I believe they call that a swamp... ;)
A mistake? Maybe for some yes, but a simple TDS analysis will tell the truth. You are right, no product will reduce TDS, only add to it, but ozone does not produce TDS and does contribute to breaking it down to be filtered out.
It has nothing to do with being "skeptical" J._McD... it's all about the chemical makeup of H2O.
Skepticism is an attitude marked by a tendency to doubt what others accept to be true. Many, at one time, where skeptical about open heart surgery, today it has become a common practice.
If you have a program that can offer this extended use, I’d love to know it! What are you contributing this extended period of time on?
Thanks, Steve
Ozone, I have spoken of it before, but this industry has the belief that chemicals are the solution and ozone is not reliable, nor can it be measured. I have seen it posted here before on this web where people have had long term water, up to a year, and when their ozonator went out, the water turned to crap over night. I begin to wonder why. I see some here have begun to do the math on the cost of heat, maybe some should measure TDS before water change to become more aware, rather than (how does that advertisement say it) “follow the crowd, follow the crowd”.
I have been challenged and criticized for my statements and support of ozone, as being a very viable sanitizer and oxidizer, and some of the results that can appeal to the Hot Tub consumer. But it is standard and considered the norm in this industry that chemicals can be measured, applied, accumulated and dumped, to start fresh generating an endless cycle.
I would not want to tell you the longest time I am aware of from my customers. While Jack the ripper was a serial killer, there are some, who believe him to be a doctor "wannabe" taking lessons in anatomy and the earliest applications of surgery. He was before his time and so was DaVinci. How do you think he was able to accurately draw the inner working of anatomy? And, he was an artist.
I am not a microbiologist or any other form of scientific expert, and I profit nothing for espousing the use or application of ozone, but I do have a long history in this business at the grass roots of applications with over 3,000 customers, who have taught me what I have learned from them. Everybody else refers back to the industry standard, the norm and even the public health department.
Who benefits most from the use of ozone, not me.
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In my experience, the people suggesting that they're getting more than 6 months are usually basing it on water clarity which we all know is a mistake.
Actually, if the water is crystal clear and is remaining chemically stable, why should I change it just becase a certain amount of time has elapsed?
As I understand it high levels of TDS's will cloud the water, and make it generally difficult to maintain.
I'm at three months now, two of us have been going in almost daily, there's been a couple parties. New Year's eve really foamed it up - but a lot of skimming, shocking, some clarifier and a filter change cleared it up.
Currently, the water is a dream chemically and visually speaking.
I can't see why I should change it.
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I can see both sides to this. I use ozone, and believe it to be an added form of "protection" as I do the N2 I use. Both are what I think of as systems to compliment the dichlor routine I use. I don't care about the <$10 it costs me to heat a new fill, I'll be changing my water out at 4 months or so, when weather permits even if it is crystal clear. Maybe I have nothing to gain but peace of mind...easily worth >$10 ;) ...Oh, J_McD., I'm ALWAYS thinking LOL...nice that you thought I was thinking 'cause of what you thought, but I don't think so! ;D
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I can see both sides to this. I use ozone, and believe it to be an added form of "protection" as I do the N2 I use. Both are what I think of as systems to compliment the dichlor routine I use. I don't care about the <$10 it costs me to heat a new fill, I'll be changing my water out at 4 months or so, when weather permits even if it is crystal clear. Maybe I have nothing to gain but peace of mind...easily worth >$10 ;) ...Oh, J_McD., I'm ALWAYS thinking LOL...nice that you thought I was thinking 'cause of what you thought, but I don't think so! ;D
Steve, two minds are always better than one. ;)
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An interesting thread. FWIW, this engineer does not micro manage his water. Rather I use a modicum of common sense and minimal chemicals including ozone, silver ion exchanger, and dichlor. AND, I change my water every 8 weeks or so. This is cheap and easy and safe.
Now, if I live in the frozen north, I admit that like many of you I would be most interested in extending the drain cycle. But I don't.
Regards,
Bill
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Now, if I live in the frozen north, I admit that like many of you I would be most interested in extending the drain cycle. But I don't.
Regards,
Bill
Just gotta keep on rubbin' our noses in that don'tcha ;D.
For what it's worth, there IS something to be said about having a carrot to dangle (like a tropical getaway!) 8)
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It is truely my belief that we are all entitled to do things the way we wish to do them, regardless of others. I have monitored, tested and worked with labratories designed to answer questions, and thus I know what 22 years of hands on experience have proven to be and as I know it to be.
I believe we are all individually entitled to do as we wish, but just don't tell me I am wrong unless you can prove to me that all of the analytical minds that I have tested over 22 years have lied and misled me in all of the experiences that we have witnessed, tested, tried to disclaim and in fact have proven to be correct.
I do not for a moment suggest that anyone of you deter from you normal sequence of behavior. But yet, should you admit there is a dark side to the moon that you can not see?
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huh?
???
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If you water is crystal clear, and let us assume your TDS were low to non existent, why do you need to change your water? It appears your ozonator is doing its job. Ozone does not contribute to TDS count, but may help to reduce them. Think about it.
Let’s start here. Clarity means nothing. Battery acid is clear. Ozone may not contribute to the TDS though in my understanding of many seminars, tens of thousands of water tests over many years and the honor of a few classes with Dr. Bob Lowry, TDS does not have the capabilities to lower TDS either. Is there data on this?
I would agree, in this industry it is not recommended and the norm is what the dealer tells you. Water is H2O, nothing more nothing less. TDS are what is added to the H2O. This is where, I would suggest that people do a TDS sampling prior to draining their Hot tub.
The “norm” is what safety is all about and the reason why there are specific regulations in place for safe bathing practices given a precise measurement of sanitizer in the water. Let’s not cloud the facts here with suggestions of a misguided dealer!! The “dealers” don’t make this stuff up. Ozone is not considered a sanitizer in my opinion though it can assist a thorough sanitizer regime. I have never been shown documentation that support the fact that ozone can safely be used as a stand alone product for pools or spas.
A mistake? Maybe for some yes, but a simple TDS analysis will tell the truth. You are right, no product will reduce TDS, only add to it, but ozone does not produce TDS and does contribute to breaking it down to be filtered out.
The clear fact remains that water with a TDS reading of over 1500ppm should be drained. The reason is that the water has become saturated and the products in the water for sanitizing it and maintaining a safe environment can not do its job effectively after this reading. Again, this isn’t something made up by dealers but instead, this is from data taken from every safety organization in spa water care.
Skepticism is an attitude marked by a tendency to doubt what others accept to be true. Many, at one time, where skeptical about open heart surgery, today it has become a common practice.
And we’ve put men on the moon. I don’t understand your point? Skepticism will always remain so until proven data can support it otherwise. You are 100% correct that I don’t have data but now I ask this of you to support your theory. I’m assuming after 22 years of study, that you have data to support the fact that ozone can be used exclusively to maintain spa water safely as well as data showing how the use of ozone can actually lower TDS?
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Ozone, I have spoken of it before, but this industry has the belief that chemicals are the solution and ozone is not reliable, nor can it be measured.
You call it a “belief”. Again do you have data to support otherwise and clearly contradict what all safety organizations have had in place for many years?
I have seen it posted here before on this web where people have had long term water, up to a year, and when their ozonator went out, the water turned to crap over night.
I’d say that’s a bit dramatic and yes, very inaccurate.
I begin to wonder why. I see some here have begun to do the math on the cost of heat, maybe some should measure TDS before water change to become more aware, rather than (how does that advertisement say it) “follow the crowd, follow the crowd”.
I don’t believe anyone was suggesting to “follow the crowd”. I have always clearly stated that good dealer support for water care is essential. This includes the regular testing of TDS to assure that the water is being drained at 1500TDS or less.
I have been challenged and criticized for my statements and support of ozone, as being a very viable sanitizer and oxidizer, and some of the results that can appeal to the Hot Tub consumer. But it is standard and considered the norm in this industry that chemicals can be measured, applied, accumulated and dumped, to start fresh generating an endless cycle.
You have an opinion and that’s great. To suggest it’s a safe way to care for the water chemistry of a spa is precarious and irresponsible to the consumer. When someone suggests a method of water care that diverts from clear safety regulations, it would be obtuse and insensible to not question that I believe. That’s all I’m doing. If I were to suggest that you could use your spa safely at 110 degrees for hours at a time, would you not question that?
I am not a microbiologist or any other form of scientific expert, and I profit nothing for espousing the use or application of ozone, but I do have a long history in this business at the grass roots of applications with over 3,000 customers, who have taught me what I have learned from them. Everybody else refers back to the industry standard, the norm and even the public health department.
Who benefits most from the use of ozone, not me.
All I ask for is data to support your theory. If I were a customer and you tried to suggest this to me after using an alternate method, I would ask for some details which I’m assuming you could provide. Keep in mind that the alternate method is a recognized method supported by all regulators of this industry. You are in a position to support your theory as it is YOU that is suggesting otherwise. Not I.